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HDCP master key leaked
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olePigeon
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:17 PM
 
HDCP 'master key' supposedly released, unlocks HDTV copy protection permanently -- Engadget

lol @ copy protection.

Unfortunately, the industry is so stupid I'm willing to bet their solution really will be, "Just have everyone buy new HDCP X devices, and make HDCP Y devices not work anymore."
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:20 PM
 
It'll definitely be their first thought.
     
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Unfortunately, the industry is so stupid I'm willing to bet their solution really will be, "Just have everyone buy new HDCP X devices, and make HDCP Y devices not work anymore."
Yep.

What's the betting the key was "leaked" in order to do just that? Everyone having to upgrade their gear will keep a fair few manufacturers in business a little longer.
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:24 PM
 
Ignoring that everything is a conspiracy for you, they're already trying to do that with 3D TVs.
     
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Ignoring that everything is a conspiracy for you
Business is a conspiracy. People sit in board-rooms conspiring to extract more money out of you. That's its purpose.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
they're already trying to do that with 3D TVs.
I haven't had a TV for years, so I'm a bit out of the loop. Quick overview of what you just said please?
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Business is a conspiracy. People sit in board-rooms conspiring to extract more money out of you. That's its purpose.
Not the context of what I was saying, but thanks for playing.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I haven't had a TV for years, so I'm a bit out of the loop. Quick overview of what you just said please?
They now sell 3D TVs.
     
sek929
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:35 PM
 
Being as I am very clueless about HD in general, I do not understand.

Cracked the digital HD format, or cracked the decoding hardware found in HD devices?
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:36 PM
 
If I understand correctly, HDCP is what verifies the connection between let's say, your DVD player and your TV is intact, and not being siphoned off to make a digital copy.

Just guessing, here.
     
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
They now sell 3D TVs.
Do you have to sit in front them of looking like a dork with those stupid 3D glasses on?
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sek929
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Do you have to sit in front them of looking like a dork with those stupid 3D glasses on?
Yep, hopefully you don't end up with more guests than glasses.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Do you have to sit in front them of looking like a dork with those stupid 3D glasses on?
Hilariously, it depends on the model.
     
sek929
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
If I understand correctly, HDCP is what verifies the connection between let's say, your DVD player and your TV is intact, and not being siphoned off to make a digital copy.

Just guessing, here.
I really hope this does not cause problems with my friends new HD Projector.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:43 PM
 
I'm looking forward to an adapter that'll let me connect an HDCP enabled DVD player or whatever, to a non-HDCP display or projector.
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I really hope this does not cause problems with my friends new HD Projector.
I don't see how it would affect existing products, other than making copying easier.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't see how it would affect existing products, other than making copying easier.
When they release HDCP X-Treme Hyperthrust Edition, none of the new devices released will work with existing products. I'm sure Blu-Ray X-Treme Spec Edition will be released as well, making all new Blu-Ray X-Treme Spec Edition discs not work on existing Blu-Ray players, even if the firmware is upgradeable.
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sek929
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:51 PM
 
Despite being quite pretty, I despise everything about the HD world.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:53 PM
 
Releasing a new, necessarily not backward-compatible hdcp follow-up would be the end of Blu-Ray.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Despite being quite pretty, I despise everything about the HD world.
Meh, as someone who invested in it for one use - video games, I feel like its served me well. DVDs still look better than on an SD screen, I now get free HD out of Netflix, and local channels from cable. Can't think of any problems I've had with it (check that - marginal issues with using it as a PC screen but no SD screen would be usable at all).

I suppose the transition to digital is related to HD, and that has been irritating me.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Releasing a new, necessarily not backward-compatible hdcp follow-up would be the end of Blu-Ray.
HD-DVD will rise again!
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
I'm looking forward to an adapter that'll let me connect an HDCP enabled DVD player or whatever, to a non-HDCP display or projector.
What would the legality of such a device be? Just curious. I don't think the comparison is entirely accurate, but it reminds me of modchips for the games market. A very gray area.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Sep 14, 2010, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What would the legality of such a device be? Just curious. I don't think the comparison is entirely accurate, but it reminds me of modchips for the games market. A very gray area.
I'm not making copies of anything.
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 01:19 PM
 
I'm not saying the legality of you having it, but someone selling it.
     
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Sep 14, 2010, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What would the legality of such a device be? Just curious. I don't think the comparison is entirely accurate, but it reminds me of modchips for the games market. A very gray area.
Devices that defeat copyright protection measures are illegal. It's probably up to the courts to decide if this applies if the key was leaked rather than hacked.
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 01:39 PM
 
So its sort of like the DVD ripping situation.
     
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Sep 14, 2010, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I now get free HD out of Netflix
From what I've seen of Netflix, and we've tried to watch a few of the things marked HD, there isn't anything H or D about it. It seems to be very dependent on bandwidth, and I'm guessing that Comcast doesn't like them very much.

Some really crappy pictures, even on those marked "HD". I like Netflix, but HD it ain't.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 14, 2010, 01:46 PM
 
Sounds like Comcast is the problem. The season of Better of Ted I watched looked very much like HD broadcast quality.
     
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Sep 14, 2010, 11:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So its sort of like the DVD ripping situation.
This isn't entirely relevant but,
I'm not afraid to say I have ripped part of my DVD collection and put it on my iPod.
I'm not even giving it away, let alone selling it.
     
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Sep 15, 2010, 07:29 AM
 
HDCP involves encrypting sensitive content (in this case, copyrighted video content) so that only HDCP-authorized devices can decrypt it. When this content is played on an unauthorized device without the key, it simply can't play it. There are several key pairs in the standard, and if a particular device gets hacked so that unauthorized "clones" of it can play content, there is a mechanism to revoke that key pair.

What these folks did was find the HCDP Master Key, which is used to create the key pairs. If it is true, all keys are effectively compromised, and new key pairs can be created at will. HDCP will be rendered useless. (However, since HDCP is still recognized as an access-control technology, circumventing it will still probably be illegal under the DCMA, just like ripping a DVD is.)

I am surprised content owners are still trying this. Encryption works best when Elizabeth wants to talk to Barack secretly, without Sarah picking up on the conversation. Elizabeth and Barack both have keys, and without those keys Sarah can't access the conversation.
This is totally different: Mickey wants to send a message to your screen, but doesn't want you to have access to it. But since the message is something you possess, you have access to all the keys (they are either in the message itself or in the equipment that you own), your equipment just won't cooperate when you try to access them in a different way using those keys.

I want my next gig to be on the team that develops the next content protection standard that is doomed to fail. I can get paid for something I know won't work by design, and the customer won't care.
     
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Sep 15, 2010, 08:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Devices that defeat copyright protection measures are illegal. It's probably up to the courts to decide if this applies if the key was leaked rather than hacked.
At least here in Germany, there is an important qualification: the copy protection measure needs to be `effective,' whatever that means in a particular situation.

Back in the day when the major labels were fiddling with the Red Book CD standard, many of those copyright protected cds just worked in many cd and dvd drives (the drives ignored the extra errors that were introduced on purpose and thus circumvented the copy protection scheme).
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Sep 15, 2010, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What would the legality of such a device be? Just curious. I don't think the comparison is entirely accurate, but it reminds me of modchips for the games market. A very gray area.
It sounds like it would be illegal under the DMCA's anti-circumvent section, but it would be very difficult to enforce.

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The Final Dakar
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Sep 15, 2010, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
It sounds like it would be illegal under the DMCA's anti-circumvent section, but it would be very difficult to enforce.
Right, but I thought I read about a court ruling DVD ripping software was legal a while ago (which was also illegal under the DMCA). I might be remembering the specifics of the decision wrong.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:10 PM
 
It is legal to make backups of your DVD, but it's illegal to circumvent the encryption in doing so. So basically you can't be busted for having backups of your DVDs, just make sure the police don't actually witness you making said backups.
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
It is legal to make backups of your DVD, but it's illegal to circumvent the encryption in doing so. So basically you can't be busted for having backups of your DVDs, just make sure the police don't actually witness you making said backups.
I'm aware of that.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
It sounds like it would be illegal under the DMCA's anti-circumvent section, but it would be very difficult to enforce.
Here it is: Court: breaking DRM for a "fair use" is legal
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Cool. Looks like my interpretation is outdated. Seems like an HDCP adapter that lets me connect a Blu-Ray player to an non-HDCP display is within the realms of fair use. So it should be legal.

I know that the Library of Congress made a similar ruling in regards to vintage software. It would seem that this ruling only underlines the Fair Use part of copyright.
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:42 PM
 
Should being the key word.
     
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Sep 15, 2010, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Note that this is the Fifth Circuit court of appeals. Their ruling is binding case law in Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi. It isn't binding anywhere else unless the Supreme Court adopts the ruling. Or if another circuit court of appeals adopts it.

Courts in other circuits may cite the decision, but they don't have to.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 15, 2010, 03:37 PM
 
I realize most of that. That's why I queried the likely legality of a dongle that bypasses HDCP.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Sep 17, 2010, 11:49 AM
 
There was some speculation that the master key was a hoax, but Intel just confirmed it was the real deal.
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olePigeon  (op)
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Jan 6, 2011, 12:23 PM
 
Well, that didn't take long. I would say "I told you so" but most of you agreed with me.

UltraViolet play-anywhere DRM spec finished | Electronista

It's even named after my 2nd most hated movie. I have a feeling the 3rd iteration of HDCP will be called Troll 2.
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Jan 6, 2011, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
HD-DVD will rise again!
can you imagine?

lol Steve should switch to the other side and lead the way
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olePigeon  (op)
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Jan 6, 2011, 02:00 PM
 
Maybe the new DRM spec will piss people off enough for that to happen.

Maybe I'll win the super lotto jackpot this week.
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Jan 7, 2011, 02:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Well, that didn't take long. I would say "I told you so" but most of you agreed with me.

UltraViolet play-anywhere DRM spec finished | Electronista

It's even named after my 2nd most hated movie. I have a feeling the 3rd iteration of HDCP will be called Troll 2.
Far be it from me to try and disprove your prediction that the media companies will insist on a new DRM (I am sure of this), but this is comparing apples and oranges.

DHCP is only barely DRM — it's basically just encryption. If it actually supports DRM, I haven't seen it in practice. (HDCP's sole use is to prevent unencrypted AV streams between two hardware devices.)

This UltraViolet (why must they they spoil the name of my favorite color?) thing sounds like a DRM system in the vein of Protected Windows Media, Apple's FairPlay, or the AACS system on Blu-ray.

Unlike breaking CSS on DVDs and AACS and BD+ on Blu-ray, which means decoding can simply be rolled out as a software program, the breaking of HDCP is very hard to exploit in practice, since you'd still have to make custom silicon to make use of it. And even then, all it would let you do is use horrifically expensive hardware to capture the real-time output from a Blu-ray player or HD tuner's HDMI port and record it on a computer. It's FAR more practical to crack it on the disc.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 7, 2011, 02:15 PM
 
Wait a second, ultraviolet isn't a color.
     
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Jan 7, 2011, 10:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Wait a second, ultraviolet isn't a color.
Sure is. Human vision is "broadly defined" to stop at a certain wavelength, but like the "standard human hearing range" from 20Hz to 31kHz (or other numbers, depending on the reference), that standardized wavelength is merely a convenient number. I can see near ultraviolet in certain situations...

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The Final Dakar
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Jan 7, 2011, 11:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Sure is. Human vision is "broadly defined" to stop at a certain wavelength, but like the "standard human hearing range" from 20Hz to 31kHz (or other numbers, depending on the reference), that standardized wavelength is merely a convenient number. I can see near ultraviolet in certain situations...
Some people can see music as color, but I'm not going to accept them saying D is my favorite color, either.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Jan 8, 2011, 12:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I can see near ultraviolet in certain situations...
Wikipedia has an interesting article on tetrachromacy. I knew about some women having 4 cones, but it was never ultra violet, always visual spectrum. Some studies point to the possibility of extremely rare occasions where either men and women are born with tetrachromacy. According to wikipedia, only two unverified cases are under review.

Maybe you should see an ophthalmologist and find out. That'd be really, really cool.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Some people can see music as color, but I'm not going to accept them saying D is my favorite color, either.
If an object absorbs infrared and visual light, but reflects ultra violet, it'd be an ultra violet color.
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Jan 8, 2011, 02:44 AM
 
Regarding Wikipedia's page on tetrachromacy, there is a reference link at the bottom. I found it even more interesting.

Tests were done on human eyes where the lens had been replaced due to damage. It turns out the human retina is sensitive throughout the UV-near band (UV-A plus about half of UV-B), but the 300-400 nm UV range is largely blocked due to absorption quality & thickness of the human lens. Therefore, we are a tetrachromatic species already.
     
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Jan 8, 2011, 05:21 AM
 
It would be hilarious if the password was 12345.

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Jan 8, 2011, 07:55 AM
 
Re: tetrachromacy. The reason that the lens absorbs UV light is that the light on those wavelengths would otherwise damage the retina. Fish can see UV just fine, because the water filters enough of the UV that it's no issue. Some birds also see UV. Their retinas do get damaged, but their lifespan is short enough that it doesn't really matter.

As for the term tetrachromacy (because I think that the article linked above is incorrect in its terms, even if the findings are interesting), it simply means that there are four different colour-sensing cones in the retina. Fish, lizards, birds etc have four cones - red, green, blue, UV - although the UV cone is useless in many creatures for the reasons mentioned above. Mammals excluding primates have two cones - red and blue (bichromacy). The other cones have gone missing during the long part of mammal evolution when mammals were night creatures (fewer cones meant more light-sensing rods, better in the darkness). Primates have three cones - red and blue, plus a green cone that is really just a mutation of the red one shifted slightly towards green (trichromacy). This is not the same as the original green cone. Primates then use that excessive brain power of ours to distinguish red (the red cone firing stronger than the green), yellow (both cones firing at more or less the same strength) and green (the green cone firing stronger than the red). There is a big gap between the new green and the blue cones, which means that we're pretty bad at identifying colors in that part of the spectrum.

That new green cone is not entirely stable, however - sometimes it turns into a mostly useless cone closer to the red. Since this gene is on the X chromosome, it means that men who have this gene lose this green cone and instead get a second red cone. They are what we call red-green color blind. Women who are carriers of this gene have both the extra red cone and the regular green cone, and would technically be tetrachromats although the extra cone is mostly pointless.

That article claims that because humans can detect UV without the lens blocking things, we are tetrachromats (and those women would be pentachromats, I guess). That does not follow - they are only showing sensitivity in the retina. It could easily be the blue cone having some sensitivity far out in the UV
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