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Bernie Sanders
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besson3c
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May 30, 2015, 09:00 AM
 
Regardless of how you feel about his ideological viewpoints, we need more candidates like him.

So far he hasn't been transformed into your prototypical "electable" candidate, while still mostly coming across as rational and competent unlike a Donald Trump or Herman Cain.

Plus, most importantly, his platform is based on the real ideological battle in this country, and that is not left vs. right, but monied interests/oligarchy vs. everybody else.

I'm also happy that Rand Paul is running.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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May 30, 2015, 09:43 PM
 
He's about the same as British Labor, ideologically, which is WAY too damned Left for the USA.
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besson3c  (op)
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May 30, 2015, 09:50 PM
 
We'll see. His talking points don't convey that, he's going after a populist voice, and one that might be seen as more genuine than Hilary's.

The populist thing is surely going to be an important theme this election, as well it should.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 30, 2015, 09:51 PM
 
I mean, populist rhetoric is always present, but I bet we'll get a ton of it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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May 31, 2015, 06:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
We'll see. His talking points don't convey that
I don't read those, they're a waste of time.
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besson3c  (op)
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May 31, 2015, 09:07 AM
 
What do you guys think of his financial transaction tax idea as a remedy towards income disparity?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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May 31, 2015, 12:57 PM
 
There's already a FTT in the US, but a larger one will create more shell companies and make capital gains taxes even more difficult to collect.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 1, 2015, 09:32 AM
 
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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besson3c  (op)
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Jun 1, 2015, 09:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post

Stuff in the 70s doesn't matter. If it did, all of the drug use would have destroyed campaigns...
     
BadKosh
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Jun 2, 2015, 07:37 AM
 
It DOES to those who think past behavior is important. Mistakes made, how they dealt with it etc. So what if he was and is a socialist wack job.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 2, 2015, 09:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
It DOES to those who think past behavior is important. Mistakes made, how they dealt with it etc. So what if he was and is a socialist wack job.
And this is why we can't have nice things.

How many more times are we going to obsess over the things that don't matter? It was over 40 years ago, dude. What is *FAR* more important in a candidate is how effectively they can transform the government into something that isn't driven by monied interests. If that can be done (based on the candidate's record, knowledge, competency, etc.), it shouldn't matter if he had orgies while doing cocaine lines off the American flag in the 70s.

Moreover, these silly narratives are going to be the death of us. Obama was apparently a wack job socialist too, and he was also an ineffective Bush lite and didn't change anything. About the only thing that people that weren't his fans agreed upon was that they didn't like him, and this started well before he took office. Sanders is going to be branded as a wack job socialist too, and also unelectable because he is old, lacks the plastic swagger, whatever x, whatever y. Every other candidate is going to be branded a certain way too. It has already started.

All of this branding is going to result in us picking a "safe" middle-of-the-road candidate that isn't going to shake things up very much. We need a transformative government (not just the presidency, an entire government), because that is what it is going to take for real change. I have no hope that this is what we'll get, in part because of how common these very shitty arguments you are making here are.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 2, 2015, 09:32 AM
 
I don't even know too much about Sanders yet, all I know is that I like that he seems like he isn't a complete numbskull (at least, not yet) ala Herman Cain, Donald Trump, Sarah Palin, Ted Cruz or the like, doesn't seem like a product of the election machine, and seems prepared to be bold. Like I said, I'm happy Rand Paul is running for the same reason.
     
BadKosh
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Jun 2, 2015, 10:11 AM
 
That you believe that Obama didn't change anything is more proof you are not connected to reality.
     
smacintush
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Jun 2, 2015, 10:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
That you believe that Obama didn't change anything is more proof you are not connected to reality.
I agree.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
smacintush
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Jun 2, 2015, 10:21 AM
 
He says this:

Originally Posted by Bernie Sanders
You can’t just continue growth for the sake of growth in a world in which we are struggling with climate change and all kinds of environmental problems. All right? You don’t necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants or of 18 different pairs of sneakers when children are hungry in this country. I don’t think the media appreciates the kind of stress that ordinary Americans are working on.
While completely evading the fact that the kind of economy that offers 23 kinds of deodorant and 18 different sneakers is exactly what is necessary to ever hope to alleviate hunger.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 2, 2015, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
That you believe that Obama didn't change anything is more proof you are not connected to reality.
I didn't say he didn't, I was characterizing a narrative.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 2, 2015, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
He says this:



While completely evading the fact that the kind of economy that offers 23 kinds of deodorant and 18 different sneakers is exactly what is necessary to ever hope to alleviate hunger.

Not without addressing the influence money has on our politics. Real, fair competition is great, but we don't have that.
     
BadKosh
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Jun 2, 2015, 12:12 PM
 
FICTIONAL NARRATIVE. Based on fictional stereotypes where you have no actual experience or knowledge. Similar to labeling someone when you suck at evaluating what type of character a person has. All features of the same issue. The liberal filter.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 2, 2015, 12:39 PM
 
You're missing the point, Badkosh.
     
smacintush
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Jun 2, 2015, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Not without addressing the influence money has on our politics. Real, fair competition is great, but we don't have that.
I'm not sure why you are bringing up money and politics in the context of the quote I posted, but money influences politics precisely because we don't have a free market. Absent excessive taxes, rules, controls and arbitrary regulations set by unelected unaccountable regulators, what would be the motivation to "influence" a politician?

I don't really know where you stand on the issue, but it irritates me to no end how so many people want to blame those doing the buying (the wealthy and corporations) without giving due blame to the system (big, controlling government) and the individuals doing the selling (intellectually and morally corrupt officials).
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 2, 2015, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Stuff in the 70s doesn't matter. If it did, all of the drug use would have destroyed campaigns...
Yes it does, at least to most Americans. It shows the guy's baseline moral character, and America isn't ready to elect someone who wrote rape porn. France or Germany maybe, but not America. Same goes for electing a Marxist. (Hopefully the US will never be ready for one of those, personally I'd rather vote for the rape fetishist. In this case they're one in the same, which makes for a very interesting headcase in Sanders.)
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BadKosh
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Jun 2, 2015, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
You're missing the point, Badkosh.
It's not me missing the point. Its your faulty assumptions and your misguided feelings towards everything.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 2, 2015, 02:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I'm not sure why you are bringing up money and politics in the context of the quote I posted, but money influences politics precisely because we don't have a free market. Absent excessive taxes, rules, controls and arbitrary regulations set by unelected unaccountable regulators, what would be the motivation to "influence" a politician?
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andi*pandi
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Jun 5, 2015, 08:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Yes it does, at least to most Americans. It shows the guy's baseline moral character, and America isn't ready to elect someone who wrote rape porn.
Did you actually read the article? Although it opens with examples of BSDM fantasies, it is not approval... more of a discussion of why people fantasize that way, and the gender roles that lead to it, than porn itself. He seems to be arguing why we should be better than that, in an oddly naive way. It's less offensive than a Dear Penthouse letter.

Strange, yes, but kind of interesting from a historical standpoint, in a framework of 70s feminism and gender roles.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 5, 2015, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I'm not sure why you are bringing up money and politics in the context of the quote I posted, but money influences politics precisely because we don't have a free market. Absent excessive taxes, rules, controls and arbitrary regulations set by unelected unaccountable regulators, what would be the motivation to "influence" a politician?
The US corporate nominal tax rate is the highest among developed countries, but the actual tax rate that corporations pay is much lower:

The Truth About Corporate Tax Rates - US News

Why is this?
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2015, 05:04 AM
 
Scuse me, I've got this grenade which needs tossing.

Businesses shouldn't pay any taxes. They're just going to charge me more to cover them. Why do we need a middle-man?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 6, 2015, 11:41 AM
 
Subego, for starters not every business is B2C. Secondly, do you think corporations should stash profits in the Caymen Islands? Their excess has to go somewhere, why not some place that benefits all of us? Surely we can agree upon noble causes like public schools and basic infrastructure?
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2015, 06:02 PM
 
The B2C argument implies you imagine when it's B2B, they're not adding a markup to cover the taxes.

I'm reminded of the SNL routine where Eddie Murphy sees how white people supposedly act when there are no black people around. Once the consumer gets off the bus, the businesses take out their cigars and go "no, my old buddy, I'll just pay this out of my own pocket because I like you that much".

Likewise, why do you think they stash it in the Cayman Islands? To dodge taxes.

Employing people with that money wouldn't be a noble cause?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 6, 2015, 06:21 PM
 
They dodge taxes, and in doing so the effective tax rate for the US is extremely low. This is why you hear remarks like Warren Buffet saying that he pays a smaller percentage in taxes than his secretary.

So, getting rid of tax and regulation would improve things how? The super wealthy corporations will decide that they don't really like money after all (nor their shareholders) and create some jobs?
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2015, 07:10 PM
 
Since I've already answered, I get to flip the question on you. They're already dodging their taxes, making them dodge more improves things how?

To repeat my answer, the improvement is now said tax dodge money is part of our economy, not the Cayman Islands economy.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 6, 2015, 07:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Since I've already answered, I get to flip the question on you. They're already dodging their taxes, making them dodge more improves things how?

To repeat my answer, the improvement is now said tax dodge money is part of our economy, not the Cayman Islands economy.

This is a silly argument. Our house is on fire, but instead of doing something about it we should just let the house burn to the ground? They are dodging taxes because the politicians that put together these tax laws are lap dogs of the very corporations they are trying to collect taxes from in the first place.

If your argument is that there isn't some sort of tax bracket system that will solve this problem, I agree, and I agree that a lot of work has to be done not only with tax reform, but to just decide to not tax businesses at all is stupid, no offence.

For starters, even if you disagree with everything I've said, any one of us could create a phantom sole proprietorship and evade all of our personal taxes.
( Last edited by besson3c; Jun 6, 2015 at 08:32 PM. )
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2015, 09:22 PM
 
Unless you are arguing this sole proprietorship is a loophole which cannot be closed by any means under heaven or earth, it's a canard.

I take no offense at you calling it stupid, but see it as a questionable conversational gambit.

As an alternative, I'd propose providing a few examples of why it's stupid, which should be easy, because it's like... stupid, and then allow me the opportunity to address them.

You may find that by trying to divine my entire tax policy from a single sentence, you've painted yourself a picture which lacks nuance.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 6, 2015, 09:25 PM
 
How about this... If your thinking is that government is incapable of closing loopholes that result in corporations stashing money offshore, why do you feel that they can close the loophole in creating phantom sole proprietorships?
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2015, 10:00 PM
 
Because the scale of the loopholes are different.

If they left a loophole that big, the government would collapse. Politicians are highly motivated not to let that happen.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 6, 2015, 11:01 PM
 
So, loopholes that can only be managed by a few should be excused? We're okay with another housing collapse? Bank bailouts? Oligarchy? I know this conversation started as being about taxes and not illegal activity, but I would argue that corporations manipulating the system to avoid paying the nominal tax rate is a crime.

Each of these huge economic collapses occurred when various monied interests discovered what lines they couldn't cross without repercussions. If we take away those lines we won't take away their interest in pushing the boundaries in pursuit of greater wealth. The solution, as I see it, is to change the game to reduce fraud and abuse. The pursuit of wealth at that level is a game, all games need rules and referees, and these rules need to be constantly tweaked.

Look at baseball, basketball, etc. - games we've been playing for decades. They are still evolving. Our financial regulatory system needs to evolve too, but evolve for the benefit of the overall population, not corrupt interests.
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2015, 11:11 PM
 
Where did you get the idea I think loopholes should be excused?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 6, 2015, 11:48 PM
 
Didn't you say that businesses shouldn't be taxed?
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2015, 12:14 AM
 
What does that have to do with loopholes? I propose that because I believe taxing businesses is passing the buck. It's pointless effort.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 7, 2015, 12:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What does that have to do with loopholes? I propose that because I believe taxing businesses is passing the buck. It's pointless effort.

Because such a policy would be a honeypot for further abuse of loopholes with phantom businesses. If you are against loopholes why would you invite more?

Tax free business are an open invitation for financial horseplay not only domestically, but this would also invite phantom businesses being registered from abroad, and with it money laundering and all sorts of problems. Filing taxes is a good way for agencies to track the whereabouts of money, but if no income is taxable, then it doesn't matter what income is reported, and therefore it is easy to hide income.
     
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Jun 7, 2015, 02:20 AM
 
Why is this not dependent upon how the legislaton is written?

The policy we're discussing doesn't exist in any form longer than a four word statement. Isn't it a little early to be complaining about the loopholes?

Why should we tax businesses (other than unwritten legislation has too big of a loophole)? The money businesses pay their taxes with... where does it come from?

Just to spare us the trip down the rabbit hole, If you answer with anything other than "an individual", I'm going to ask where that money comes from, and if I continue the process, I will, with 100% assurance, finally get to the original source, which is always an individual.
     
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Jun 7, 2015, 03:47 AM
 
If businesses aren't taxed, and there are no loopholes (because there are no business taxes), then how can the nonexistent loopholes be abused? What it would do is bring in more capital into the US economy, instead of having it sit elsewhere not helping us at all.
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Jun 7, 2015, 12:10 PM
 
You could in theory collect more taxes this way because some businesses would save money not having to pay so many accounting teams to find loopholes (something mainly big business has the luxury of). Meanwhile the same money could still be taxed as it's paid to the owners or employees, in which case there's the potential for less loopholes & more taxes due to the simplified nature of taxing individuals.

Big corporations love the current complex tax system because it allows them to receive tax breaks & subsidies under the radar giving them an unfair advantage over small business competitors. It's like this by design and there is no changing it. The government corporate complex is too powerful at this point to ever be taken down by the kind of people who think the most important issue in the US is creating a culture of ultra politeness & not hurting people's feelings.

And no politician will acquire presidency unless he's a monied politician. The powers that be are too smart to allow that. They know exactly how to brainwash or distract people into supporting whatever issue or candidate they want.
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2015, 12:33 PM
 
And to be clear, the entire tax structure would need to be redone. The individual tax rate would go up, but that gets balanced out by cheaper goods and services...

Eventually, at least.

I'll admit, that's the "flaw" in my position. Taxing businesses was such a ****ed-up idea in the first place, we're unfortunately well past the point it can un**** itself without some pain.
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2015, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
You could in theory collect more taxes this way because...
...every company in the world which doesn't rely on cheap labor would set up shop here, and then employ people, who would pay taxes.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 7, 2015, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
If businesses aren't taxed, and there are no loopholes (because there are no business taxes), then how can the nonexistent loopholes be abused? What it would do is bring in more capital into the US economy, instead of having it sit elsewhere not helping us at all.

I've already accounted for this: phantom businesses. If personal taxes could be evaded this way there would be people creating phantom businesses, which is really quite easy to do.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 7, 2015, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
You could in theory collect more taxes this way because some businesses would save money not having to pay so many accounting teams to find loopholes (something mainly big business has the luxury of). Meanwhile the same money could still be taxed as it's paid to the owners or employees, in which case there's the potential for less loopholes & more taxes due to the simplified nature of taxing individuals.

Big corporations love the current complex tax system because it allows them to receive tax breaks & subsidies under the radar giving them an unfair advantage over small business competitors. It's like this by design and there is no changing it. The government corporate complex is too powerful at this point to ever be taken down by the kind of people who think the most important issue in the US is creating a culture of ultra politeness & not hurting people's feelings.

And no politician will acquire presidency unless he's a monied politician. The powers that be are too smart to allow that. They know exactly how to brainwash or distract people into supporting whatever issue or candidate they want.

You lost me at the ultra polite thing.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 7, 2015, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The money businesses pay their taxes with... where does it come from?
Corporate assets are handled much differently than personal assets. For starters, the people usually handling them in a corporation don't actually own them, the shareholders own the company.
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2015, 03:12 PM
 
I'm not asking how the money is handled, I'm asking where it comes from. What is its point of origin?

Name a business, name an asset it has. I'll trace it to where it comes from.

It's good, old fashioned, "follow the money".
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2015, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I've already accounted for this: phantom businesses. If personal taxes could be evaded this way there would be people creating phantom businesses, which is really quite easy to do.
How feasible this is will be entirely dependent on the legislation.

To give you an analogy, what's being pitched is a proposal for a piece of software, and you're trying to hammer on how the code is written.

We haven't coded anything yet. You have to write the code before you start complaining about how it's got memory leaks.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jun 7, 2015, 03:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not asking how the money is handled, I'm asking where it comes from. What is its point of origin?

Name a business, name an asset it has. I'll trace it to where it comes from.

It's good, old fashioned, "follow the money".
How would tracing transactions to particular accountants help? Companies will just create phantom accountants.

I'm not a financial mastermind at all, but if even I can find loopholes in these suggestions, it is probably not a great policy position.
     
 
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