[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by OAW:


Guy,

I think you might be thinking that my "toolbar" idea involves utilizing the existing toolbar. In fact, what I mean is to use toolbar icon-like widgets in their own row underneath the Favorites bar. If you wanted to mock something up (cause I'm definitely not a graphic artist by any stretch of the imagination), these icons (icons & text, icons only, or text only) would be displayed horizontally underneath the favorites bar in the same area that the tabs display in Chimera.

Something like this?

[cpac]

Originally posted by smeger:


Standard browsing for me (I have cmd-click mapped to open a new tab in the background):

• Open a new tab and type 'for <pause> <enter>' - loads http://forums.macnn.com
• Page down twice
• cmd-click OS X General
• cmd-click OS X Software
• click OS X Developer
• ctrl-fn-page down takes me to the already-loaded OS X General while OS X Developer is still loading
• cmd-click anything that looks interesting
• When I get to old stuff, cmd-w to close OS X General. OS X software appears
• Repeat. When done with OS X software topics, cmd-w takes me to the first of 20 tabs of posts
• Read a post, hit reply or cmd-w to close it and take me to the next post.
• After I've closed the last post, I'm back at OS X Development - repeat, feel brain fall onto floor

If I did this with individual windows in IE, it would start resizing my windows after I'd opened a few of them. Mozilla doesn't, but I'll start swapping out RAM way earlier than I will with tabs.

(I just reread this post, and I've decided that I'm sorta pathetic)

Thanks for sharing - have you tried doing this with OW at full screen? (you can command-click to open a new window in the background. Then Command-` would flip you through each window in a heartbeat...

So far, no compelling reason to have tabs rather than multiple windows (since they both show up in the "window" menu, and are keyboard swapable using command-`)

[cpac]

I actually went trough exactly the process you suggest, and have found that it works quite well in OW.

I can see wanting more feedback about which page you are command-` -ing to - perhaps a pop-up of the window menu would make things easier:

consider
(1) it could be semi-transparent like the volume or brightness keys
(2) it would work something like the old application switcher in windows (where it would show you a list of sights - basically the contents of the "Window" menu, and have one highlighted.

ta-da instant keyboard access, with no loss of screen real-estate, and no tabs...

[Guy Incognito]

To expand my list view idea...the toolbar button that shows the list view would have a little down arrow like the 'back' and 'forward' button in OmniWeb. Clicking on the down arrow would simply drop a menu with the 'tabbed' pages. This would prevent the hassle of clicking on the toolbar button, getting the list view and then clicking again to choose your page. But this method won't give you all the handy-dandy info and thumbnail preview...but should satisfy those that only have a few 'tabbed' pages.

Another idea would be to have a key combo (like the cycling through the apps in the dock using cmd-tab and cmd-shift-tab) would bring up a transparent bar with thumbnail previews and page title.

It would look like LiteSwitch X shown below...but with previews of the webpages.



Check out more screenshots of LiteSwitch here...LiteSwitch X Pics

I don't know how much work would be involved with this.

Edit: ****...cpac beat me to it.

[cpac]

D*mn -just keep thinking up more ideas.

Combine the above described pop-up ability with the ability to open multiple bookmarks by opening a "bookmark set." This set would be just like the current folders in OW bookmarks, but you could check an option (in the foler's info window) that would say something like: open all [contained] bookmarks in separate windows when folder is selected.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Another idea would be to have a key combo (like the cycling through the apps in the dock using cmd-tab and cmd-shift-tab) would bring up a transparent bar with thumbnail previews and page title.

It would look like LiteSwitch X shown below...but with previews of the webpages.


Edit: ****...cpac beat me to it.

Exactly. Perhaps even with a preference to use name, name & preview, or preview only.

Anyone care to do a mock-up of such a pop-up? Or any of you tab fans tried doing the whole command-click, command-` thing yet, and have compelling reasons why it's not as good?

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by cpac:



Exactly. Perhaps even with a preference to use name, name & preview, or preview only.

Anyone care to do a mock-up of such a pop-up? Or any of you tab fans tried doing the whole command-click, command-` thing yet, and have compelling reasons why it's not as good?

Here's a rough mock-up...and now I'm going to bed.



[All mockups created using Apple's built-in screenshot capture mechanism and OmniGraffle.]

[poocat]

guy, your last mockup is hot.
that's what i've been thinking would be the best way to do it.

we don't use a command window switch because that involves having multiple windows open.

tabs may not be the best interface idea (i do agree w/ your gui complaints) but the issue (which you are all addressing well now) is that i want one window open for my browser, one for my chat program, one for my mp3 player, etc. i hate how when you're using ie you end up with a mess if you follow like four links in an article while trying to continue reading it.

the bar w/ names (i think you could get away with icons instead of actual thumbnails to save space/time) is a great idea.

the most crucial feature is this, to me (and no, chimera/moz don't do it):

if you want one-window browsing, the browser should NEVER open a new window without your request. it should be such a customizable option that it never breaks your desires. in both chimera and moz, the browser still occasionally opens things in new windows instead of new tabs... that's not cool!

great thread guys!

poocat.

[Guy Incognito]

Hmmm...my .mac account goes bye-bye in 3 days. Someone's gonna have to host my mockups if you don't want them to disappear with the account.

[cpac]

Originally posted by poocat:
we don't use a command window switch because that involves having multiple windows open.

i want one window open for my browser, one for my chat program, one for my mp3 player, etc. i hate how when you're using ie you end up with a mess if you follow like four links in an article while trying to continue reading it.

I guess I'm trying to see the difference between having multiple windows stacked exactly on top of each other, and having tabs. Is it that you minimize a lot and just want to make it all disappear/move at once? Command-H would solve the minimizing problem. I suppose moving the windows around would be a problem, but many of us browse at full screen/near full screen anyway and so there's nowhere to move...

[SMacSteve]

I know I'm going to look like an idiot here, but I have a question... What the f**k is tabbed browsing? Could someone please give me a explanation and some examples of browsers that currently use this feature. Thanks.

[Mactoid]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Wow...good for you...now let's return to reality: a reality in which most people run their screens at around 1024x768. And let's find a solution for those unfortunate people: people that make up the *majority* of users out there that don't have the money for 19" screens or Cinema Displays.

Reality: My screeen is 1024x768. Tabs are still the best idea I've heard. I don't want a drop down, or anyother obstruction to clicking immediatly on the next page. I don't care that with lots of tabs I can't see the whole page title. I usually have a good idea of where the page I want is.

I also think that the ability to sort tabs is dubious. They are not a personal toolbar, they are just temporary. IMHO, sorting them is pointless.

[cpac]

Originally posted by SMacSteve:
I know I'm going to look like an idiot here, but I have a question... What the f**k is tabbed browsing? Could someone please give me a explanation and some examples of browsers that currently use this feature. Thanks.

Mozilla, Chimera and (I believe) now Opera have tabbed browsing. Basically you open lots of web pages simultaneously in a single window - this has been used in Chat (Adium) and ptp file sharing (Limewire). Some people really seem to love it, hence this thread.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Mactoid:
Reality: My screeen is 1024x768. Tabs are still the best idea I've heard. I don't want a drop down, or anyother obstruction to clicking immediatly on the next page. I don't care that with lots of tabs I can't see the whole page title. I usually have a good idea of where the page I want is.

I also think that the ability to sort tabs is dubious. They are not a personal toolbar, they are just temporary. IMHO, sorting them is pointless.

Well admittedly the keyboard pop-up like thing leaves out the ability for good mouse-interaction. The "Window" menu is apparently too many clicks, so perhaps something like an "Active" bar that works like the favorites bar would be what you want?

[SMacSteve]

Originally posted by SMacSteve:
I know I'm going to look like an idiot here, but I have a question... What the f**k is tabbed browsing? Could someone please give me a explanation and some examples of browsers that currently use this feature. Thanks.

OK, now I know what it is. I tried the control click on the Chimera and saw the "open link in tab" this is a pretty cool feature. I wouldn't say this is a must have, but a nice option. Let me play with it awhile though. I might change my mind.

[Art Vandelay]

One thing to keep in mind is that OmniWeb's "tabs" will be a lot more than what the others have done. They are planning much more functionality than just a web page in each "tab."

Unfortunately, at the rate they're going, it will be a long time before we see 5.0. 4.1.1 hasn't even been finished and there's still 4.1.2 and 4.2 to be released last I heard. In addition, there's a few thousand bugs to fix (one I submitted was #5100-something) and the fact that they just recently started working on the new engine, there's a long way to go.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by cpac:


Well admittedly the keyboard pop-up like thing leaves out the ability for good mouse-interaction. The "Window" menu is apparently too many clicks, so perhaps something like an "Active" bar that works like the favorites bar would be what you want?

No...LiteSwitch allows for mouse interaction...I think the pop-up should work like LiteSwitch's pop-up.

You'd be able to bring up the 'tabbed' pop-up transparent bar using say cmd-\ and then you could either cycle through backwards using cmd-[ or forwards using cmd-]...if you use these two last key combos keeping the finger on the cmd key would allow you to cycle through but releasing the cmd key would allow the computer to know that you've found the page (exactly the same way you cycle through active dock apps.)

But simply pressing cmd-\ would leave the transparent bar up for mouse interaction...you can click them, or resize the transparent bar (and thus resize the thumbnail previews), right-click them to remove them, drag them, etc...

If you haven't already, give LiteSwitch X a try. I was using that program for the longest time before 10.2. I didn't bother reinstalling LiteSwitch because I simply hate the idea of third-party software modifying the way the OS works. But if it wasn't for that hatred, I'd be using LiteSwitch all the time.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Mactoid:
Reality: My screeen is 1024x768. Tabs are still the best idea I've heard. I don't want a drop down, or anyother obstruction to clicking immediatly on the next page. I don't care that with lots of tabs I can't see the whole page title. I usually have a good idea of where the page I want is.

[jasong]

Why I need tabs. A book report by Jason

Some of the advantages of Tabs over cmd ~ . . .

1. I can forget what windows I have open, with Tabs I have direct immediate feedback on the screen (that takes up very little space btw).

2. cmd ~ just brings the next ordered window to the front. In IE, this inevitably is the Download Manager. I now have to cmd ~ through all my open windows until I find the one I want (assuming I still have it open). With Tabs (I don't think I tend to have more than 5 open at a time) I again have immediate feedback on what's open.

3. Tabs give me feedback if a page is still loading in a Tab so I know if I can click over there or if I should wait.

4. I have one click access to any open page. A LiteSwich type navigator (I love LiteSwitch BTW) would require multiple keyboard hits

Now, I am not sure what the concern is over moving the Tabs around, at one glance I know which page I want, and where it is. If I want to close a tab, I click on the Tab and then hit cmd W (I agree it is a mistake to use this command, it took me a while to get used to it)(yes this is 2 steps now, but under schemes proposed here, I will need multiple steps just to switch windows). Also, this idea of using thumbnails is funny because most people on these boards complain about thumbnails used to represent screen objects (come on, how many rants have you read here about making the Dock text-based?). Under the LiteSwitch type mechanism, you only get a text indicator when you are on the page itself.

I can only speak for myself, and my use of Tabs, but I use them to group related pieces of information. I am a web developer for a company that does health care conferences. I use Tabbed Browsing to have the home page of each conference on the screen at the same time (or the registration page, etc.). So the system wide metaphor works for me.

Do Tabs need improvements? I am sure they can be improved, but I find their current implementation to be very helpful. I would like it if a minimized tabbed window's contextual menu let you maximize the window to a specific tab. I don't find keyboard based access so important, as web browsing usually involves the mouse (click to different pages, scroll to different points), and not the keyboard (unless I am ranting along like this, in which case I am not switching to different tabs/windows very often).

Guy, would tabs offend your sense of sensibilty less if they weren't Aqua widgets (and thus not abusing the system-wide tab metaphor)?

The ideas presented here strike me as overly complicated in the face of the elegant solution of tabbed browsing.

-- Jason

[sadie]

I'm gonna get flamed for this.

At work, ie for most of my waking hours, I use a PC. The browser I use is NetCaptor, the one that invented tabbed browsing in the first place. And it makes my browsing so easy that when people object to tabbed browsing, I just laugh. Even Mozilla, Chimera and Opera seem primitive in comparison.

And yes, it's not a Mac program. But still, it is the best. Really.

Let's compare with smeger's impressive workflow above:

• Click in the address bar and type f <enter>. A new tab appears for MacNN forums.
• Scroll down, and click with the mouse wheel (button 3) on OS X - General, and on OS X - Software. They open in new tabs.
• Wheel-click on the tab for the index to close it.
• Run down OS X - General wheel-clicking on anything that looks interesting (maybe 20 topics, maybe 2).
• Wheel-click on the OS X - General tab to close it
• Realize as it vanishes that i didn't really mean to close it. Hit Control-Z, and it reappears.
• Scroll the tab-bar to the left and right with two little buttons.
• Lather, rinse, repeat

Doesn't that just rock? It's all so fscking easy!

And yes, i do have a 1600 screen. I use my computer all day. Live with it.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by jasong:

The ideas presented here strike me as overly complicated in the face of the elegant solution of tabbed browsing.

What the elegance of truncated titles? And wasted screen estate? I thought screen estate was important to all youz bitches.

Seriously though...how much more work does hitting a key-combo and clicking on the more easily recognizable thumbnail preview/page-title than spending time trying to find you webpage through a bunch of truncated tabs.

Sorry, tabs aren't an elegant solution. You might as well go use elegant little Windows XP.

Get lost! You guys are just so set in your ways it makes me vomit. I've provided several better examples than 'tabbed-browsing'.

And no...only maybe 1% of the whole general computer user population runs their screen at 1600x1200...and that'd be an exaggeration too.

Surely the 'tab lovers' would prefer the 'Favorites' bar approach. 2 rows of a 'Favorites'-type bar dedicated to 'tabbed browsing' = the same screen estate used for on row of tabs but without the truncated name mess.

Tabs are no good...face it!



Essentially the same screen estate but which one is easier to read? The answer is obviously OmniWeb's setup but because you're dumb and won't admit to your idiotic fixation you might say that you enjoy the tabs best.



There's more screen estate waste in OmniWeb in the picture above...but is it truly wasted screen estate? You decide...I know I'd find my page more easily with OmniWeb than Chimera.

"But...but...I run my screen at 320000x240000 I don't have that problem."

In the words of Wooz, a Fallout 2 bartender, "I won! **** you! You are dumb."

[Gee4orce]

Guy - cool it will you ?

I think OmniWeb should leapfrog the whole Tab thing and move it on the the next level. I'd like to see something like Photoshop's dockable pallettes - although I think Adobe have a patent over that particular 'innovation'.

I think a drawer with thumbnails and/or page names would be cool, especially if you could drag items between different browser windows, or out of the drawer to open them in their own window.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
Guy - cool it will you ?

I think OmniWeb should leapfrog the whole Tab thing and move it on the the next level. I'd like to see something like Photoshop's dockable pallettes - although I think Adobe have a patent over that particular 'innovation'.

Thing is, you can try to explain to some of the MacNN weinies here that such a feature would be 'leapfrogging' the 'whole Tab thing' but they'd just tell you you're wrong and that that feature would be taking 2 billion steps backwards.

Sorry, I can't keep cool in an environment full of dumbasses.

[Gul Banana]

Guy, you said yourself earlier that the problem with all the suggestions that you and others have presented so far is that they don't work better than tabs when there are only a few of them open, and all the many-tab examples you come up with aren't going to change that. As long as there are a lot of people that like to have a _few_ webpages open at once, tabs work well and any viable alternative to them must work at least as well as tabs for small numbers of pages. Personally I think something similar in function to tabs but with a different widget and thus different UI connotations would be good.

[Mactoid]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Thing is, you can try to explain to some of the MacNN weinies here that such a feature would be 'leapfrogging' the 'whole Tab thing' but they'd just tell you you're wrong and that that feature would be taking 2 billion steps backwards.

Sorry, I can't keep cool in an environment full of dumbasses.

I truly feel bad for you guy. It must be hard trying to communicate with these foolish little peons who are too ignorant to recognize the infallibility of your Word. I'm sure you would be much happier someplace where your omniscients is recognized.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
Personally I think something similar in function to tabs but with a different widget and thus different UI connotations would be good.

Yes, like the examples I've been giving in the last few posts?

But seriously...anyone who only opens/tabs a few pages can live with having a few windows open and cmd-` through them. It's faster...trust me.

Tabbed browsing is really for the big boys that want all their 10+ pages to load up in 1 second instead of 2 at one-click's reach.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Mactoid:
I truly feel bad for you guy. It must be hard trying to communicate with these foolish little peons who are too ignorant to recognize the infallibility of your Word. I'm sure you would be much happier someplace where your omniscients is recognized.

Shuttup peon!!!

I'll take your off-topicness as an acknowledgment that I'm right and you're wrong and that since you couldn't find a good counter-argument you had to deviate from the subject at hand.

[cpac]

Originally posted by sadie:
I'm gonna get flamed for this.

• Click in the address bar and type f <enter>. A new tab appears for MacNN forums.
• Scroll down, and click with the mouse wheel (button 3) on OS X - General, and on OS X - Software. They open in new tabs.
• Wheel-click on the tab for the index to close it.
• Run down OS X - General wheel-clicking on anything that looks interesting (maybe 20 topics, maybe 2).
• Wheel-click on the OS X - General tab to close it
• Realize as it vanishes that i didn't really mean to close it. Hit Control-Z, and it reappears.
• Scroll the tab-bar to the left and right with two little buttons.
• Lather, rinse, repeat

This really doesn't seem all that different from command-clicking a link in OW. Granted, windows programs might allow you to set the wheel click to do two different things (open new tab, close tab) but I think this is a OSX/mouse driver problem, not a browser problem. Same with the scroll right/left little buttons on your mouse. Most mac users have all of 1 button, or at best 2 w/ a scroll wheel. Still not the browser's problem.

It might be nice to have a command-z that "undoes" an inadvertent window close - this could be a feature to implement.

Mostly it seems that if we all had 5 button mice like you, we could make OW do almost the all the same things simply by mapping the right key combo to the right button...

[Gul Banana]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:


Yes, like the examples I've been giving in the last few posts?

But seriously...anyone who only opens/tabs a few pages can live with having a few windows open and cmd-` through them. It's faster...trust me.

Tabbed browsing is really for the big boys that want all their 10+ pages to load up in 1 second instead of 2 at one-click's reach.

I know that you can; since my primary browser is still Omniweb, I do. The advantage of tabs in this case is that you can easily see which web pages you are at, but.. you do have a good point. Command-tildeing through to find the one you want is indeed very fast when you only have a few open.

[cpac]

Originally posted by jasong:
Why I need tabs. A book report by Jason

Some of the advantages of Tabs over cmd ~ . . .

1. I can forget what windows I have open, with Tabs I have direct immediate feedback on the screen (that takes up very little space btw).

2. cmd ~ just brings the next ordered window to the front. In IE, this inevitably is the Download Manager. I now have to cmd ~ through all my open windows until I find the one I want (assuming I still have it open). With Tabs (I don't think I tend to have more than 5 open at a time) I again have immediate feedback on what's open.

3. Tabs give me feedback if a page is still loading in a Tab so I know if I can click over there or if I should wait.

4. I have one click access to any open page. A LiteSwich type navigator (I love LiteSwitch BTW) would require multiple keyboard hits

-- Jason

Thanks Jason - these are pretty much valid points, but some I think that have been addressed:

(1) Would something akin to the favorites bar (call it the "open" bar) be sufficient?

(2) Wouldn't the pop-up type thing discussed above take care of this for you? (whether it have previews, or merely text like the "Window" menu?

(3) Window names in OW actually give you feedback about their loading status as well - their title begins with "Loading..." if it's loading - presumably an "open" bar would preserve this...

(4) Conceded, but again, an "open" bar would fix this.
--------

Basically I think we can agree that tabs tend to be less efficient than a "open" bar would be simply because they don't stack well and take up screen real estate. The main difference being that an "open" bar could stack the way the favorites bar does.

As "Loading..." would likely take up a bunch of screen real-estate, a color change in the lightning bolt icon could indicate whether it was loading, or completely loaded (or it could be a change from outline to solid lightning bolt, or whatever)

While I would be perfectly happy to command-` through my open pages, I can see where having an instant-click would be desirable.

If I have time this weekend, maybe I'll make a mock-up of such an "open" bar...

Thoughts on good colors for such a project? Ideas on differentiating between a favorites bar and an open bar? (different color icons? background color?)

Lets keep this discussion constructive...

[Guy Incognito]

The more I think about the more I like the 'Favorites' bar approach.

I'd like to see both Favorites and whatever-you-wanna-call-it-tabbed-browsing merged together. The favorites bar would essentially contain your favorites and the tabbed pages. How would this work, you ask?

When the browser launches it would load all your favorites into memory automatically...think of it as loading Chimera and having your favorites already in their tabs. They are your favorites right? So why not load them right away?

The favorites would be marked slightly differently as the tabbed pages that aren't your necessarily your favorites to prevent removing a favorite instead of a tabbed page.

These also update if the webpage has changed (just like they do now if you have it set to check for changes.) So the blue lightning icon would become green for the webpages that have seen changes.

This would be somewhat similar to the Dock idea...your favorite apps stay in the Dock, but other apps that are launched also appear temporarily in the Dock.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

When the browser launches it would load all your favorites into memory automatically...think of it as loading Chimera and having your favorites already in their tabs. They are your favorites right? So why not load them right away?

'cause that might take forever! (many of us have many many "favorites" pages. - An easy solution to this problem would be to allow you to check off a box in the bookmark's info window (same place you check for changes) that says "load on launch" - the lightning bolt could be yellow outline while it was loading, solid yellow to show it was loaded, red if the page was unreachable, &c.

Definitely a feature I'd like to see.

BUT this only works if you don't make "tabs" on-the-fly. In that case, you'd still need a separate area, like an "open" bar, in which to temporarily store pages...

[cpac]

wonder if the Rickster is merely observing amused, or if he's taking notes...

[dru]

Originally posted by cpac:
Nobody who's a big fan of tabbed browsing willing to share all the pages they open up at one time?

I just don't get it... (2 or 3 sure, but command-` works pretty well to switch between a couple of windows).

Here are a few examples... log-on to the MacNN forums and navigate to OSX, open tabs (or new windows) for the forums I most often read (OSX Software & General). Skim through the topics, right clicking and doing "Open Link In New Tab" for each thread I'm interested in reading. Tab among them. Works with any forum & doesn't clog bookmarks any more than needed.

Set up tabs for sites I visit many times during each day. Bookmark the group of tabs; keep that in a separate window.

If you think about each browser window you've opened as a notebook, this method works fine. It's hardly beyond user comprehension. For example, Lotus has done it since the early 90's in their applications. Excel:mac does it. Tabs are a tool. Use them or don't. Just, for user's sake, developers remember to let the user open bookmarks/personal toolbar items in a new tab.

I initially resisted tab browsing (loving OmniWeb's own in a new window behind feature) until I found an good way to integrate it into my way of working. ATM, I use Mozilla (with pinstripe theme).

The primary irritation with tabbed browsing for this user comes when pages have brain-dead names, like the Raskin page (simply named "Home"--well now, how humane! ).

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by cpac:


'cause that might take forever! (many of us have many many "favorites" pages.

Well...I'd suggest that people that don't want some of these pages to load at launch to simply put them as normal bookmarks and not favorites.

Favorites are really meant as must-check pages when you open your browser...I go down my favorites list everytime I start surfing. Especially the ones marked with green lightnings.



Favorites marked with a heart icon (doesn't need to be that cheezy though.) Normal pages marked with a lightning icon. Spinny-icon indicates that page is loading.

When the browser is first loaded, you'll see the spinny icon go through all your favorites. You'll know when they've loaded.

Priority loading will go to the address you put in the URL bar. So if you type http://www.blah.com, the other pages that are loading will pause so that the browser loads your page.

In normal circumstances, the browser should stay open all the time (this is OS X right?) so this 'loading of favorites at launch' shouldn't happen often and shouldn't be very annoying.

Oh...and the cycling key-combo would go through this bar and could pop up a transparent overlay (ala volume change and eject) with a preview of the page. Kinda like that mock-up I did earlier except, only one page would show at a time on the transparent overlay.

Edit: screw this...I'm talking to brick walls. This would be such a better solution but nobody's interested. **** you all. Why don't you marry those tabs if you love them so much.

[cpac]

Thanks dru: sounds like we've been able to narrow down both what the objections to and advantages of tabs are.

If OW were to implement:

(1) load a folder of bookmarks (i.e. a saved "tab" set)
(2) "open" bar (hmmm, like the sound of that...)

I think we'd have all the advantages of tabs with none of the problems of tabs.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Well...I'd suggest that people that don't want some of these pages to load at launch to simply put them as normal bookmarks and not favorites.

Favorites are really meant as must-check pages when you open your browser...

I disagree.

Almost all my bookmarks are in my favorites bar, and folders/subfolders thereof. I hide my toolbar, and simply use the favorites bar to navigate where I need to.

Having a separate "open" bar allows for the different "notebooks" like dru was talking about. Favorites would stay the same between different OW windows, while the "open" bar could be entirely different.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by cpac:


I disagree.

Almost all my bookmarks are in my favorites bar, and folders/subfolders thereof. I hide my toolbar, and simply use the favorites bar to navigate where I need to.

Yeah, except that I've just explained that loading these pages at startup would be unintrusive. The spinny-icon would show the pages that are loading. These pages would load on low-priority and allow pages you want to load *now* to load *now*.

There could be an option in the prefs so that the browser 'Don't load favorites at launch'...then the user would be making an aware choice that the favorites will require the page to load and will not be cached like the other pages.

And like I said...do you quit your browser often? The only time I quit my browser is when the OmniWeb decides life isn't worth living anymore and decides to crash. If this is fixed...I'm set for life.

[OAW]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:


Something like this?

Exactly! Except the Favorites bar would still exist in between the toolbar and the "tab" bar if the user wished to display it.

OAW

[foamy]

Guy. Personally I think your ideas for tab-like behavior suck sweaty dog nuts just as much as you think the mozilla/chimera implementation does.

Basically all your hard work making those pitiful looking mock-ups could easily be implemented by making the tabs in mozilla/chimera smaller in height, but have a defined minimal size; the text smaller, thus more information, and if you want a bazillion tabs open, they make multiple rows (just like your approach)--this has been discussed in bugzilla and was opted against. You could even put nice little heart icons on the tabs if you so pleased. Kinda like chimera puts the favicons on the tabs.

I think the tab size should be about the size of the tabs used in project builder on the side bar (which basically keeps multiple windows within one window frame, thus allowing you to switch between workspaces (read pages) with a single click). I guess that breaks the sacrosanct HIG as well, but I digress. I bet some smart programmer could even make it so the tabs can be dragged around to reorganize them.

I guess because your implementation uses icons and text without a defined border, and tabs would use an icon and text surrounded by a gooey blue tab (much more aesthetically pleasing IMO, especially if a minimal size is defined and the text is smaller), then your idea is better because the HIG Bible state that "Browsers shall not used tabs!"

If omniweb makes a profound leap in the concept, then so be it, but your incessant whining that, "tabs suck, tabs suck, tabs suck" doesn't make any difference. Many people like tabs in chimera, etc and would be more than happy to have an even better implemenations. Fact is, you can make a difference in Chimera development and you might see the results in the next decade.

[OAW]

Originally posted by cpac:
wonder if the Rickster is merely observing amused, or if he's taking notes...

I was wondering the same thing. 2 pages of good debate and no word from Omni. I figured someone from Omni would have been tempted to drop us a hint by now. Those guys are being very tight lipped lately!

OAW

[OAW]

A few other comments ....

Regarding Guy's idea of a "favorites" bar approach ... I see his points, but I personally don't care for it strictly on aesthetic grounds. It's a little too unstructured and asymmetrical for my tastes.

However, I do like the idea of the "Liteswitch" approach. It is very similar to the "toolbar" approach that I suggested (thanks again Guy for the mockup!), the only difference is that the bar is always visible. Which leads me to another suggestion ....

Someone earlier mentioned that a drawback of the "Liteswitch" approach was that it required a keystroke combination to even see what other pages were available, and then a click or additional keyboard navigation to select the desired page. All this is true, which is why I now suggest that my "toolbar" approach and the "Liteswitch" approach be combined!

If you are a user that would like to see all the available pages, then you could simply select Browser-Browser Toolbars-Show Open Pages Bar which would display a toolbar like the one Guy mocked up for me. This has all the benefits of tab with none of the drawbacks. Everything is visible with one-click access, no additional windows, and enhanced UI control. You'd also have the ability to display icons & text, icons only, or text only (which when you think about it is really similar to Guy's "favorites" bar approach). Ability to right click a thumbnail and bring up a standard OW web page contextual menu. Etc.

Now if you are a user that would rather have the extra screen real estate available, then you could simply select rowser-Browser Toolbars-Hide Open Pages Bar which would turn off the "open pages" toolbar and display the current OW. You could then hit a keyboard combination to display the Open Pages Bar "Liteswitch" style on an as needed basis. Again, no additional windows with enhanced UI control. You'd also have the ability to display icons & text, icons only, or text only here as well.

A combined "toolbar" and "Liteswitch" approach would provide the best of both worlds. It provides all the benefits of tabs, with none of their drawbacks ... and it allows for greater flexibility to accommodate various browsing styles (even those who would rather not use this feature at all and simply open new windows all time).

What do you think?

OAW

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by OAW:
A few other comments ....

Regarding Guy's idea of a "favorites" bar approach ... I see his points, but I personally don't care for it strictly on aesthetic grounds. It's a little too unstructured and asymmetrical for my tastes.

Same here, it just looks ugly, and I don't see it being as fucntional to me, IMHO.

Maybe it's just Guy's bad attitude.

[Adam Betts]

Guy, not everyone think like you. If they like tabbed-browsing, leave them for god's sake. You can turn it off if you want.

Sometime people like to think they're above of all people but in the end, they are the one who are at the bottom. Your idea is good but it won't be good in the long run. Tabbed-browsing is the way to go, IMHO.

[CheesePuff]

Meow.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:


Yes, like the examples I've been giving in the last few posts?

But seriously...anyone who only opens/tabs a few pages can live with having a few windows open and cmd-` through them. It's faster...trust me.

Tabbed browsing is really for the big boys that want all their 10+ pages to load up in 1 second instead of 2 at one-click's reach.

Who on Earth made you dictator of browser usage?

Face it, people work in different ways, and just because you don't like tabbed browsing and prefer window switching doesn't mean that others feel the same way.

Nobody's forcing you to use tabbed browsing, but can I continue to use it? I usually have my hands at the keyboard - not the mouse!

[cpac]

REMINDER: This thread is supposed to be a discussion of how OW ought to implement tabbed browsing. It is not supposed to be a debate about whether people who like tabbed browsing s*ck or whether tabbed browsing itself is stupid. If you want to debate that start another thread.

While I think Guy has had some good contributions he's needlessly made this discussion antagonistic.

Anyway, for those that thought the initial mock-ups were super ugly, here's one that might be better:



The yellow indicates that the page is loaded, Such an option would take up less screen real-estate than tabs, and be more consistent with OW existing UI elements. Command-clicking would simply load the link in a new yellow-bolted page...

Thoughts?

[Rickster]

wonder if the Rickster is merely observing amused, or if he's taking notes...

It's been interesting to see this group go through many of the same thought processes we did a few months ago. There have also been a few things brought up here that we hadn't looked at, and a few things we've been working on that haven't been discussed here yet -- as for which is which, you'll just have to wait until we start showing 5.0 to the public.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Rickster:


It's been interesting to see this group go through many of the same thought processes we did a few months ago. There have also been a few things brought up here that we hadn't looked at, and a few things we've been working on that haven't been discussed here yet -- as for which is which, you'll just have to wait until we start showing 5.0 to the public.

such a tease.

But it's good to both that Omni's got some ideas we don't and that some of our ideas might help shape the eventual Omni product.

[OAW]

Originally posted by cpac:
REMINDER: This thread is supposed to be a discussion of how OW ought to implement tabbed browsing. It is not supposed to be a debate about whether people who like tabbed browsing s*ck or whether tabbed browsing itself is stupid. If you want to debate that start another thread.

As the originator of this thread, I couldn't agree more!

Originally posted by cpac:

Anyway, for those that thought the initial mock-ups were super ugly, here's one that might be better:



The yellow indicates that the page is loaded, Such an option would take up less screen real-estate than tabs, and be more consistent with OW existing UI elements. Command-clicking would simply load the link in a new yellow-bolted page...

Thoughts?

This looks like the "Favorites" bar approach that Guy is advocating. It looks nice in your mock up. I previously criticized this idea as being "unstructured" and "asymmetrical" because of the way it looked when there was more than one row of information. What I didn't realize was that the existing favorites bar in OW wraps just like this! I guess I've never put that many entries up there. Anyway, this approach could work as long as it incorporated the following ....

1. A visual indicator for the currently displayed page.

2. A visual indicator for loading pages.

3. A visual indicator for pages alredy loaded.

4. An easy way to distinguish between an open page entry and a regular bookmark.

Having said all that, I still like my "toolbar/Liteswitch" approach better!

OAW