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mitchell_pgh · 06:00 PM

Ugh, Well, I was going to say before Safari boggled up my message:

If anyone is interested in receiving a burned copy of the free iLife apps, I will send them to you. I'm asking for donations of $2 via PayPal (for shipping and handling) but they aren't required (but would sure help).

Private message me with address and email.

mitchell_pgh

mitchell_pgh · Jan 20, 2003, 06:01 PM

perhaps we can try this again...

Peter · Jan 20, 2003, 06:29 PM

Im guessing you mean the free iLife apps? and not iDVD?

dillerX · Jan 20, 2003, 06:36 PM

Still illegal I am sure. ?

voodoo · Jan 20, 2003, 07:29 PM

Maybe he means Safari. Still, don't tell Apple.

mitchell_pgh · Jan 20, 2003, 08:02 PM

I don't see how this can be illegal as I'm giving it away, and you still have to agree to the license (AKA Install it)

Then again, perhaps it is illegal... but when I was on dial-up, it would have been nice...

P.S. I was only talking about the free apps (if they are over 20MB, some people are going to have issues)

skyman · Jan 20, 2003, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I don't see how this can be illegal as I'm giving it away, and you still have to agree to the license (AKA Install it)

Then again, perhaps it is illegal... but when I was on dial-up, it would have been nice...

P.S. I was only talking about the free apps (if they are over 20MB, some people are going to have issues)

You can only make copies for your personal use. Giving them away to other people (even for free) is 100% illegal. Also, receiving them is a crime as well.

Hozie · Jan 20, 2003, 08:16 PM

You can only make copies for your personal use. Giving them away to other people (even for free) is 100% illegal. Also, receiving them is a crime as well.

... and that's what you get for trying to be nice. I'd say: anyone want the apps, don't post it here but mail our good man mitchell. Give Apple a run for their money in trying to prove that he's actually sent the apps to anyone... Not that they would bother.

skyman · Jan 20, 2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Hozie:
... and that's what you get for trying to be nice. I'd say: anyone want the apps, don't post it here but mail our good man mitchell. Give Apple a run for their money in trying to prove that he's actually sent the apps to anyone... Not that they would bother.

Being nice is one thing. Committing a crime is another...

gorickey · Jan 20, 2003, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I don't see how this can be illegal as I'm giving it away, and you still have to agree to the license (AKA Install it)

Then again, perhaps it is illegal... but when I was on dial-up, it would have been nice...

P.S. I was only talking about the free apps (if they are over 20MB, some people are going to have issues)

iMovie 3 I've heard is over 60 MB in size...

[APi]TheMan · Jan 20, 2003, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by skyman:
Being nice is one thing. Committing a crime is another...

Get over it.

chromos · Jan 20, 2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by skyman:
Being nice is one thing. Committing a crime is another...

Show who's being hurt in the above scenario.

My motto:
"Never do anything immoral. Consider before doing something illegal."

skyman · Jan 20, 2003, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
Get over it.

Instead of using a unintelligent statement like "Get over it". Why don't you defend your position in an intelligent manner? Or, is that not possible for you to do?

decursive · Jan 20, 2003, 09:52 PM

how is distributing free apps for free a crime?

skyman · Jan 20, 2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by decursive:
how is distributing free apps for free a crime?

Because it violates Apples license agreement that you must agree to before installing the applications. When you violate a license agreement you have committed a crime.

CheesePuff · Jan 20, 2003, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by skyman:
Because it violates Apples license agreement that you must agree to before installing the applications. When you violate a license agreement you have committed a crime.

http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/

Where does it say that I agree to anything?

Emotionally Fragile Luke · Jan 20, 2003, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by CheesePuff:
http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/

Where does it say that I agree to anything?

the installer tells you that it is illegal. It is EXTRA illegal if you are collecting money for it.

Millennium · Jan 20, 2003, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by decursive:
how is distributing free apps for free a crime?

Because unfortunately, thanks to an inane system of copyright which allows companies to dictate the terms under which you will use software rather than relying on standard copyright to prevent illegal redistribution (which is precisely the purpose copyright was designed for), Apple can tell you it's a crime and so it's a crime.

skyman · Jan 20, 2003, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by CheesePuff:
http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/

Where does it say that I agree to anything?

When you install the application not when you download it. Read the post.

[APi]TheMan · Jan 20, 2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by skyman:
Instead of using a unintelligent statement like "Get over it". Why don't you defend your position in an intelligent manner? Or, is that not possible for you to do?

Unintelligent? I think not. I think that you, skyman, can do nothing about what mitchell is proposing.

MacGameFiles.com offers a service such as mitchell's, probably somewhat more lawful than mitchell's method, but the idea is the same.

I'm with what Hozie said:

I'd say: anyone want the apps, don't post it here but mail our good man mitchell

Therefore, skyman, instead of running into this thread like a man that's gone postal and shooting at everyone, drop your gun and evaluate the situation. This thread was about mitchell trying to be courteous to fellow mac users that are not as fortunate to have broadband internet. You stated your opinion once, and now you and I have just begun to pollute the thread. Arg.

iamnotmad · Jan 20, 2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Emotionally Fragile Luke:
the installer tells you that it is illegal. It is EXTRA illegal if you are collecting money for it.

Yowie - EXTRA illegal?!? Is that a technical term? Is it kind of like extra dead?

decursive · Jan 21, 2003, 12:17 AM

to quote the license:

3. Transfer. You may not rent, lease, lend or sublicense the Apple Software. You may, however, make a one-time permanent transfer of all of your license rights to the Apple Software to another party, provided that: (a) the transfer must include all of the Apple Software, including all its component parts, original media, printed materials and this License; (b) you do not retain any copies of the Apple Software, full or partial, including copies stored on a computer or other storage device; and (c) the party receiving the Apple Software reads and agrees to accept the terms and conditions of this License.

so it seems to me that he could transfer the rights to anybody else, giving up his rights to the software, and then download the software again, thus regaining his rights to it. right?

Mr. Blur · Jan 21, 2003, 12:31 AM

it was not that long ago that apple stopped mags like macaddict and macworld from giving copies of software on their monthly cd's, even though they were free updates to system software etc. bottom line is that apple owns the software and it is their decision as to how it is distributed.

sure, it's really nice to offer to make cd copies for those on dialup, but the $2 may get apple a little bit peeved - some of those people may have spent the $49 from apple to buy the package.

saru boy · Jan 21, 2003, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by skyman:
Because it violates Apples license agreement that you must agree to before installing the applications. When you violate a license agreement you have committed a crime.

Violating a license agreement is not necessarily a crime. It's just a violation of an agreement. You can enter into an agreement not to eat turkey sandwiches...and just because you eat one later, you aren't a criminal.

Stealing, however, is a crime, which is the fundamental issue here. As far as I know, the iLife apps aren't free, since Apple charges you 50 bucks for a copy.

King Bob On The Cob · Jan 21, 2003, 12:33 AM

And if he never installs it how can he read the license? So it doesn't apply to him until he reads and agrees to it. Sorta like the contract isn't usable in a court of law until someone slaps their John Hancock on it.

skyman · Jan 21, 2003, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by saru boy:
Violating a license agreement is not necessarily a crime. It's just a violation of an agreement. You can enter into an agreement not to eat turkey sandwiches...and just because you eat one later, you aren't a criminal.

Stealing, however, is a crime, which is the fundamental issue here. As far as I know, the iLife apps aren't free, since Apple charges you 50 bucks for a copy.

Giving a copy of any software to anyone is a violation of FEDERAL COPYRIGHT LAWS AND IS A FEDERAL CRIME. You can only make a copy of software for you OWN personal use.

skyman · Jan 21, 2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by King Bob On The Cob:
And if he never installs it how can he read the license? So it doesn't apply to him until he reads and agrees to it. Sorta like the contract isn't usable in a court of law until someone slaps their John Hancock on it.

Hummm. You make a good point. However, if he gives a copy of the "installer" to someone else then he is not in violation of the law. However, he can then NEVER install it on his own computer because he had already given a copy to someone else.

skyman · Jan 21, 2003, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
Unintelligent? I think not. I think that you, skyman, can do nothing about what mitchell is proposing.

MacGameFiles.com offers a service such as mitchell's, probably somewhat more lawful than mitchell's method, but the idea is the same.

I'm with what Hozie said:

Therefore, skyman, instead of running into this thread like a man that's gone postal and shooting at everyone, drop your gun and evaluate the situation. This thread was about mitchell trying to be courteous to fellow mac users that are not as fortunate to have broadband internet. You stated your opinion once, and now you and I have just begun to pollute the thread. Arg.

Sorry for

Truce?

PCTek · Jan 21, 2003, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by King Bob On The Cob:
And if he never installs it how can he read the license? So it doesn't apply to him until he reads and agrees to it. Sorta like the contract isn't usable in a court of law until someone slaps their John Hancock on it.

You can read the license without installing it.

Run the Installer. When the license appears, read it. Then hit Disagree, and the Installer quits.

Yes, re-distributing the iApps is a "bad idea". Try going into an Apple Store and asking for a burned copy of 10.2.[1/2/3], they won't do it. I've tried. Apple wants to keep track of how many copies of their software is going out, and when someone like the creator of this thread goes and downloads the iApps, then distributes it to 20 people, Apple's numbers are then thrown off.

Apple Stores will, however, willingly help you bring your machine into the store, connect it to the 'Net, and let you download it from inside the store.

Point is: You must aquire the new iApps (or an OS download, or Safari) from downloading it from Apple. They ask you not to distribute it, so please, don't distribute it....

...ESPECIALLY WHEN ASKING FOR MONEY! No matter WHERE it goes, you're pretty much saying "You're not getting these unless you give me money".

Mods: Can we lock this thread?

Emotionally Fragile Luke · Jan 21, 2003, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by iamnotmad:
Yowie - EXTRA illegal?!? Is that a technical term? Is it kind of like extra dead?

Or an extra obvious joke

TimmyDee51 · Jan 21, 2003, 02:56 AM

What if he downloads as many copies of the software as he is going to distribute and then burns each one uniquely onto each CD? Technically, he is never running that installer, so he isn't violating the license agreement. He agreed to the license on his installer, not theirs. I realize it's a little ridiculous, but it sounds like a loophole.

[APi]TheMan · Jan 21, 2003, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by skyman:
Sorry for

Truce?

Good call, man.

sandsl · Jan 21, 2003, 04:53 AM

If you don't run the installer your not reading the agreement and you won't have to agree with it.

Of course, that doesn't mean its either legal or illegal to burn it to CD and give it away, but you won't know because you haven't read the agreement. Some free apps are allowed to be freely distributed, how do you know that iMovie etc. isn't without reading the agreement?

Just plead ignorance if they ask

If I only had narrowband, I take you up on your offer. I don't see anything wrong with distributing free apps...

mitchell_pgh · Jan 21, 2003, 12:03 PM

WOW I didn't think I would spur such controversy...

If Apple� required me to agree to something prior to downloading the installer, then I would understand that I'm not at liberty to distribute the application without charge.

All Apple would have to do is place a license before the download screen and they would have me, but I think that this is a viable opportunity.

Regardless, nobody has requested a copy...

OwlBoy · Jan 21, 2003, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
WOW I didn't think I would spur such controversy...

If Apple� required...

hehehehehehehhehe.

I think its a great jesture, but I also don't know the legality, though it would make me wonder since apple selling almost the exact same CD

.

-Owl

dillerX · Jan 21, 2003, 12:17 PM

A link to this appears on every page of Apple's site.

Software Piracy
Software piracy (the illegal copying of software programs) is a worldwide problem--more than $11 billion is lost to piracy every year! Because software is valuable, and it is easy to create an exact copy of a program from a single computer, software piracy is widespread.

The illegal copying of software programs is a crime! In the United States and many other countries, copyright law provides for severe civil and criminal penalties for the unauthorized reproduction or distribution of copyrighted material. Copyrighted material includes, but is not limited to, computer programs and accompanying sounds, images and text. Under U.S. law, infringement may result in civil damages of up to $150,000 and/or criminal penalties of up to five years imprisonment and/or a $250,000 fine.

Please join Apple in its piracy prevention efforts. You can report incidents of software piracy from this site at Report Piracy. Also, you can help your business avoid serious problems with sound software asset management practices as explained in the section below.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at [email protected].

edddeduck · Jan 21, 2003, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by skyman:
You can only make copies for your personal use. Giving them away to other people (even for free) is 100% illegal. Also, receiving them is a crime as well.

That depends in Scotland in the UK it LEGAL to giveaway software as long as you don't profit.

But when you install it yourself you have to abide by the install rules so...

Giving people copies is not wrong AS LONG as everybody obides by the install licence.

O BTW this will not apply outside of Scotland as everyone has different rules.

Cheers Edwin

dfiler · Jan 21, 2003, 02:02 PM

All of apple's software is copyrighted, excluding the open source stuff. However, you would probably only incure punative damages if sued.

Its not enough for intellectual property to be free in order for you to distribute it as you wish. Distribution is also governed by copyright laws. Even if something is free from the owner, the owner is legally empowered to restrict distribution as they see fit.

(morality of such laws is another discussion entirely)

The Evener · 02:39 AM

My God, with some of the overblown rhetoric I've seen on this list, who needs the likes of the MPAA, RIAA, or MS ranting about criminals? We have a group of reserve beat cops right here, thinking if they yell "COPYRIGHT" or "CRIME" or "ILLEGAL" loud enough they'll finally impress the big boys and get their gun.

The license everyone is flashing around is the same one they use on all Apple software -- you know, the stuff you pay for. It also happens to be the same license we all saw when we upgraded to Mac OS X 10.1 -- the same update that everyone from the local CompUSA rep to the local Mac reseller was burning furiously to prevent a riot of Mac fans waiting in line for their update from Mac OS X Public Beta 2. Now maybe after 14 months the Apple lawyers are finally ready to direct the police to arrest the thousands of "criminals" who violated the license when they ripped the update. Then again, maybe the lawyers at Apple won't. Maybe they evaluate situations and decide the appropriate reaction despite the fact they drew up a license that makes it illegal to distribute copies of their software. You know, kind of like the cop that doesn't go chasing you down the highway because you're breaking the law driving 5 MPH over the speed limit.

Sheesh.

dillerX · Jan 22, 2003, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by The Evener:
My God, with some of the overblown rhetoric I've seen on this list, who needs the likes of the MPAA, RIAA, or MS ranting about criminals? We have a group of reserve beat cops right here, thinking if they yell "COPYRIGHT" or "CRIME" or "ILLEGAL" loud enough they'll finally impress the big boys and get their gun.

The license everyone is flashing around is the same one they use on all Apple software -- you know, the stuff you pay for. It also happens to be the same license we all saw when we upgraded to Mac OS X 10.1 -- the same update that everyone from the local CompUSA rep to the local Mac reseller was burning furiously to prevent a riot of Mac fans waiting in line for their update from Mac OS X Public Beta 2. Now maybe after 14 months the Apple lawyers are finally ready to direct the police to arrest the thousands of "criminals" who violated the license when they ripped the update. Then again, maybe the lawyers at Apple won't. Maybe they evaluate situations and decide the appropriate reaction despite the fact they drew up a license that makes it illegal to distribute copies of their software. You know, kind of like the cop that doesn't go chasing you down the highway because you're breaking the law driving 5 MPH over the speed limit.

Sheesh.

They chase us down in rural Minnesota for just that. It's how they fund the State Patrol out here.

Anyways, if he charges, I am almost certain he'll get a letter from Apple Legal.

Just trying to be helpful.

dfiler · Jan 22, 2003, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by The Evener:
My God, with some of the overblown rhetoric I've seen on this list, who needs the likes of the MPAA, RIAA, or MS ranting about criminals? We have a group of reserve beat cops right here, thinking if they yell "COPYRIGHT" or "CRIME" or "ILLEGAL" loud enough they'll finally impress the big boys and get their gun.

Actually, this is one of the least rhetoric filled discussions i've ever seen on the topic of copyrights. The posts have been remarkably limited to the discussion of legality. Some of us equate legality with morality, some of us do not... but that's a topic for another thread in a different forum.

typoon · Jan 22, 2003, 03:21 PM

Even easier than Dowloading would be to go to your local CompUSA or Apple store and just buying a copy. I mean come on people, If you are not able to download it just go out and buy it. 50 bucks for all 4 is worth it to me. Considering it saves me time from downloading it everytime I need to re-install.

PLus buying it helps Apple with Dev costs and hopefully they will bring us more cool products and updates to our beloved iApps. iTunes for example.

Superchicken · Jan 22, 2003, 05:42 PM

hmmmm I guess the box probably does have some copyright info on it... but uhh I think that this would only be technically ilegal... I don't see apple legal comming after him for something so tiny and really it's what they do anyway it's just in another forum...
What might acctualliy be better would be downloading them from apple.com and then burnning then I don't think you'd come into any conflict then.

skyman · Jan 22, 2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by The Evener:
My God, with some of the overblown rhetoric I've seen on this list, who needs the likes of the MPAA, RIAA, or MS ranting about criminals? We have a group of reserve beat cops right here, thinking if they yell "COPYRIGHT" or "CRIME" or "ILLEGAL" loud enough they'll finally impress the big boys and get their gun.

The license everyone is flashing around is the same one they use on all Apple software -- you know, the stuff you pay for. It also happens to be the same license we all saw when we upgraded to Mac OS X 10.1 -- the same update that everyone from the local CompUSA rep to the local Mac reseller was burning furiously to prevent a riot of Mac fans waiting in line for their update from Mac OS X Public Beta 2. Now maybe after 14 months the Apple lawyers are finally ready to direct the police to arrest the thousands of "criminals" who violated the license when they ripped the update. Then again, maybe the lawyers at Apple won't. Maybe they evaluate situations and decide the appropriate reaction despite the fact they drew up a license that makes it illegal to distribute copies of their software. You know, kind of like the cop that doesn't go chasing you down the highway because you're breaking the law driving 5 MPH over the speed limit.

Sheesh.

phillryu · Jan 22, 2003, 10:35 PM

iMovie 3 is 80 megs. iPhoto 2 is ~45 megs.

Person Man · Jan 22, 2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by typoon:
Even easier than Dowloading would be to go to your local CompUSA or Apple store and just buying a copy. I mean come on people, If you are not able to download it just go out and buy it. 50 bucks for all 4 is worth it to me. Considering it saves me time from downloading it everytime I need to re-install.

PLus buying it helps Apple with Dev costs and hopefully they will bring us more cool products and updates to our beloved iApps. iTunes for example.

Um... what if you don't have a SuperDrive?? iDVD would be useless, and the other three iApps (iPhoto, iTunes, and iMovie) would still be available for FREE download online...

Oh yes... haven't you heard of archiving software installers after you've downloaded them? I've set aside a small (700 MB) partition for software installers that I download from the 'net. (Digital River wants me to pay $4.95 for their electronic backup feature??? Heck, I can do it myself). Once the partition is full I burn it to CD. Saves me from having to re-download the installer if I need to reinstall.

(That said, I plan on purchasing iLife, as I have a SuperDrive and can use iDVD 3... even though I will be downloading iPhoto 2 and iMovie 3 the day they're released online).

- - e r i k - - · Jan 23, 2003, 04:13 AM

Originally posted by skyman:

People who use only the rolleyes when replying should automaticly be banned from this board. And while we're at it, let's ban all animated smileys. Especially that $"#$" poking-stick.

Eriamjh · Jan 23, 2003, 01:21 PM

I think distributing it is also illegal. Of course, so is speeding.

Tell me, who are you hurting when you distribute a freely downloadable app on cd?

What if you sell them this way: For Sale, Used Cd-Rs, bits and bytes may resemble freely downloadble software applciations from Apple. Any resenblence to them is entirely coincidental.

Arguing what is illegal is one thing. Arguing if it is "morally wrong" is another. Arguing if it is "stealing" is another.

Apple stopped MacAddict from distributing its free updates on its CDs back in 97-98. Apple claimed it "owned" the software and therefore could control its distribution. They complied (as I would have). Now with DSL and cable modems, free updates are no big deal, even 100MB.

So I suggest the modem people either buy it (best bet) or download during the wee-hours.

Or just copy it from a friend and be done with it.

Nebrie · Jan 23, 2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
I think distributing it is also illegal. Of course, so is speeding.

Tell me, who are you hurting when you distribute a freely downloadable app on cd?

What if you sell them this way: For Sale, Used Cd-Rs, bits and bytes may resemble freely downloadble software applciations from Apple. Any resenblence to them is entirely coincidental.

Arguing what is illegal is one thing. Arguing if it is "morally wrong" is another. Arguing if it is "stealing" is another.

Apple stopped MacAddict from distributing its free updates on its CDs back in 97-98. Apple claimed it "owned" the software and therefore could control its distribution. They complied (as I would have). Now with DSL and cable modems, free updates are no big deal, even 100MB.

So I suggest the modem people either buy it (best bet) or download during the wee-hours.

Or just copy it from a friend and be done with it.

Who's hurt? How about all of these idiots here offering pirated software in a logged public forum? Seriously...

dfiler · Jan 23, 2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by dfiler:
Actually, this is one of the least rhetoric filled discussions i've ever seen on the topic of copyrights. The posts have been remarkably limited to the discussion of legality. Some of us equate legality with morality, some of us do not... but that's a topic for another thread in a different forum.

I official retract this statement.

Resume your regularly scheduled bickering.