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Defining Christianity
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subego
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:00 PM
 
Nobody's yelling, so let's give it a go in the lounge for adults.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:22 PM
 
You believe that Jesus is the son of God.
     
subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You believe that Jesus is the son of God.
That would fit for me, but the argument seems to be you need to go along with the Trinity part.
     
subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:38 PM
 
I have to admit, I find the Trinity one of the more confusing parts of Christianity. I sympathize with the desire to pitch it.
     
osiris
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:41 PM
 
Let us not forget Space Ghost.
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The Final Dakar
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:42 PM
 
Because it pretend not polytheism. They're the same person but they're not! Ok.
     
osiris
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You believe that Jesus is the son of God.
I believe that is a main component of Christianity.
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osiris
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:44 PM
 
At least Buddhism is honest about it, saying 'yeah, sure - there's a god for that!"
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subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Because it pretend not polytheism. They're the same person but they're not! Ok.
That's actually the best explanation I've ever heard, and I'm not even kidding.
     
sek929
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Because it pretend not polytheism. They're the same person but they're not! Ok.
The best way I've heard it described is like the 3 states of water. Solid, liquid, and vapor but all still water.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:51 PM
 
That's clever. But Jesus praying to himself is still confusing.
     
subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:54 PM
 
The Jesus/God thing confuses me, but I guess I can kinda work it out.

I don't even know what the Holy Ghost is supposed to be.

There's a reason I stick with the OT.
     
subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:55 PM
 
Paging Dr. Chongo...

Exegesis on the Holy Ghost needed, stat.
     
subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
That's clever. But Jesus praying to himself is still confusing.
"Why has me forsaken me?"

Kinda takes the "oomph" out of it.
     
osiris
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Apr 25, 2016, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The Jesus/God thing confuses me, but I guess I can kinda work it out.

I don't even know what the Holy Ghost is supposed to be.

There's a reason I stick with the OT.
I think the Holy Ghost is the risen Christ.

So let's count 'em up:

Baby Jesus
Regular Jesus
Risen Jesus

To keep with the OT:
To be Christian is to be Christ-like, to be giving, not taking.

This rules out most people on planet earth.
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subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 01:08 PM
 
That sounds... not right.

Didn't the Holy Ghost exist before Christ rose?
     
osiris
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Apr 25, 2016, 01:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That sounds... not right.

Didn't the Holy Ghost exist before Christ rose?
Not that I'm aware of - before Christ, the angels came down, and the spirit of God appeared in bushes and things.

I can't recall my early years of having Catholicism pounded into me night and day.
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osiris
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Apr 25, 2016, 01:14 PM
 
oops, apparently the big three religions have a version of the Holy Spirit.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit
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subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 01:19 PM
 
Just came from that page.

The summary says the Holy Spirit is Jesus' dad.

     
osiris
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Apr 25, 2016, 01:20 PM
 
ergo religion.
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osiris
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Apr 25, 2016, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
just came from that page.

The summary says the holy spirit is jesus' dad.

noooooooooo!!!!!
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Hawkeye_a
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Apr 25, 2016, 01:27 PM
 
Spirituality-dogma-laws-practice.

IMHO Those are the different ingredients that make up any "religion", each religion weighing those ingredients differently. IMHO, the most important ingredients are the laws and the practice. Determining how people interact within the "faith" and how they interact with people outside the faith.

One can argue forever about the spirituality and dogma of any faith. It would be like two people whose favorite colors are not the same, arguing about which one is better. Pointless IMHO.
     
OAW
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Apr 25, 2016, 01:58 PM
 
I submit that the best and most inclusive definition of "Christianity" is "Follower of Jesus Christ (according to one's understanding)".

OAW
     
Chongo
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Apr 25, 2016, 02:31 PM
 
Trent Horn just posted this on Catholic Answers
Correcting Media Portrayals of Prince’s Faith | Catholic Answers

The recent passing of music icon Prince has motivated many people to look at a once little-known fact about his life: his faith. Though he was baptized a Seventh-day Adventist, Prince became a Jehovah’s Witness. He regularly attended services and even knocked on doors, as this CNN.com story illustrates:

On one occasion Prince knocked on a door in a middle class suburb of Minneapolis. A woman answered and stared at the instantly recognizable singer, easily the Twin Cities’ biggest celebrity, Lundstrom recalled. “In the middle of Prince’s very nice Bible presentation, the woman says, ‘Excuse me, but has anyone told you that you look a lot like Prince?’ He looks at her and says, ‘It's been said.’ Then goes back to his presentation. When the woman asked Prince for his name, Prince said, ‘Rogers Nelson,’” his middle and last name.

One problem in stories like these and other commentary on Prince is that he is often described as a “conservative Christian,” even though Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Christians. Now, before I explain why Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Christians, I need to head off some objections, specifically: “How dare you question someone else’s faith!” and “Don’t you have any respect for the recently departed?”

First, when I say Prince was not a Christian, I’m not saying he was a bad person. “Christian” and “good person” are not synonymous. Bad people can be Christians—indeed, all Christians are sinners—and there are good people who happen to be non-Christians. The term Christian refers instead to people who believe certain truths about God and have received certain sacraments, namely baptism, in accordance with those truths.

Second, I’m not questioning what Prince believed or judging the contents of his heart and soul. I’m assuming that Prince was a faithful Jehovah’s Witness until death. What I am saying is that if someone believes Jehovah’s Witnesses theology, he is not a Christian. Of course, the critic will reply, “Who gave you the right to say who is and isn’t a Christian?”

But even the critic will admit that some people, like Jews or atheists, are not Christians. His criteria for being a Christian is probably “anyone who says he is a Christian,” which makes sense in a world where one’s personal sense of self-identity is allowed to override almost any objective measure of reality. However, if Jesus rose from the dead and left us an authoritative church to guide believers to salvation, then I’m going to go with the definition of Christianity Christ’s Church gives us.

Tangling with the Trinity

The key difference between Christians and non-Christians such as Jehovah’s Witnesses is the doctrine of the Trinity. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Christians are baptized ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’ Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: “I do.” “The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity” (CCC 232).

But Jehovah’s Witnesses emphatically deny the doctrine of the Trinity. They say the Trinity is “the lie that made God a mystery”[1] and is simply “not a Bible teaching.”[2]

Many of their objections to the Trinity can be answered by explaining what it actually is. For example, when Jesus was tempted to worship the devil, he refused and responded by quoting the Old Testament’s command to “worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve” (Luke 4:8).

The Watchtower, the official magazine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, says of this passage, “Jesus made it clear that there is just one God who must be worshipped when he said ‘him alone,’ not ‘us,’ which he would have said if he were part of a Trinity.”[3] But the Trinity does teach that there is just one God to be worshiped, and this God is a unity that can be referred to as “him.” God is not a collection to be referred to as “us” but three persons united in one being, each of whom fully possess the divine nature.

Other Jehovah’s Witnesses criticisms of the Trinity try to prove that the doctrine is unintelligible or is a pagan belief that was assimilated by Christian doctrine and is not biblical. For example, one Watchtower article says:

The Trinity, explain Catholic scholars Karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgrimler, "could not be known without revelation, and even after revelation cannot become wholly intelligible." Can you really love someone who is impossible to know or understand? The doctrine of the Trinity, therefore, is a barrier to knowing and loving God.[4]

But this objection confuses being incomprehensible with being unintelligible. Yes, the Trinity cannot be fully comprehended, or understood, in every respect. But just because something is not “wholly intelligible,” it does not follow that it is unintelligible, or nonsense. Jehovah’s Witnesses even admit that their God Jehovah is not completely understandable. According to their training manual Reasoning from the Scriptures, “Should we really expect to understand everything about a Person who is so great that he could bring into existence the universe, with all its intricate design and stupendous size?[5]

Since there is nothing else in the universe like the Trinity, we can expect that there would be things we don’t understand about this doctrine, even though on the whole the doctrine is not a logical contradiction. The Trinity is a mystery, but that does not mean it is some unknowable “black hole.” Rather, a theological mystery refers to truths that we would not know if God had not revealed them to us. It is, like other mysteries of the faith, “not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit” (1 Cor. 2:13).

Jehovah’s Witnesses also claim the term Trinity is a pagan one derived from ancient mythology and is not found in the Bible. It is true that the word does not appear in Scripture, but neither do the words Governing Body, generation of 1914, kingdom hall, or other words associated with many important Witnesses doctrines. This shows that a doctrine does not have to appear in the Bible in order for one to believe it to be true.

Furthermore, the claim that the Trinity is based on mythological “triads” of gods such as Osiris, Isis, and Horus in Egypt is false. These pagan triads are nothing like the Trinity, because they represent three different and competing gods, while the Trinity is one God who is three co-equal, co-eternal persons, or, as Tertullian wrote in A.D. 216, “The unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit.”[6]

The bottom line

All people, no matter what their beliefs, will eventually stand before God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That’s why Catholics evangelize, or share the good news about God: so that all people can have a relationship with God before death.

This is especially true when it comes to evangelizing groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons who claim Jesus as their savior but deny the deity of Christ. These groups don’t even feel it is appropriate to pray to Jesus, so it is an act of kindness, not arrogance, to correct their mistaken Christology. This is done out of love so that the person can come to know the God who not only became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14) but stands ready with the Father to dwell within our very being (John 14:23).

Join me in praying for the soul of Prince and for all those who die with mistaken beliefs about God. In this Year of Mercy especially we have hope of their eternal salvation.

If you want to learn more about how to answer the arguments of Jehovah’s Witnesses, see my booklet 20 Answers: Jehovah’s Witnesses.



[1] “The Lie That Made God A Mystery,” The Watchtower, November, 1 2013, 5. http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/ wp20131101/lie-made-god-a-mystery-trinity/. ?

[2] Reasoning From the Scriptures (Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989), 405. ?

[3] “Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?” The Watchtower, March 1, 2012, 23. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY. ?

[4] “The Lie That Made God A Mystery,” The Watchtower, November, 1 2013, 5. http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/ wp20131101/lie-made-god-a-mystery-trinity/. ?

[5] Reasoning From the Scriptures (Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989), 149. ?

[6] Against Praxeas, 2. ?
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Chongo
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Apr 25, 2016, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Paging Dr. Chongo...

Exegesis on the Holy Ghost needed, stat.
I'm not at home. I took a class at The Institute of Catholic Theology (located at my parish) that used Frank Sheed's "Theology for Beginners" When I get home I'll scan the section on the Holy Spirit. Sheed's has a more in depth book titled "Theology and Sanity". I should have suggest that book to Big Mac. He great umbrage when I recommended "theology for Beginners' to him.
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osiris
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Apr 25, 2016, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
excellent post

also IIRC Christ as a deity is considered blasphemy in Islam, correct me if I'm wrong my theology is quite rusty.
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Apr 25, 2016, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I'm not at home. I took a class at The Institute of Catholic Theology (located at my parish) that used Frank Sheed's "Theology for Beginners" When I get home I'll scan the section on the Holy Spirit. Sheed's has a more in depth book titled "Theology and Sanity". I should have suggest that book to Big Mac. He great umbrage when I recommended "theology for Beginners' to him.
I've been meaning to tell you that i do recognize and appreciate you using the symbol/image in your signature. (In the context of what's been happening to Christians in the middle east over the past few years)

Cheers
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Apr 25, 2016 at 04:09 PM. )
     
Chongo
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Apr 25, 2016, 05:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Paging Dr. Chongo...

Exegesis on the Holy Ghost needed, stat.
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I'm not at home. I took a class at The Institute of Catholic Theology (located at my parish) that used Frank Sheed's "Theology for Beginners" When I get home I'll scan the section on the Holy Spirit. Sheed's has a more in depth book titled "Theology and Sanity". I should have suggest that book to Big Mac. He great umbrage when I recommended "theology for Beginners' to him.
The aforementioned scans.

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subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 05:09 PM
 
Thank you!

I will most definitely read them, but am a little pressed right now.
     
subego  (op)
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Apr 25, 2016, 05:40 PM
 
From other thread.

Originally Posted by P View Post
That last was sort of my point.

What do you mean, agenda? All I know about religion I learned from playing Crusader Kings II.
Copts get ****ed with by Muslims, and Muslims ****ing with Christians is a narrative which serves some agendas.
     
P
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Apr 25, 2016, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
excellent post

also IIRC Christ as a deity is considered blasphemy in Islam, correct me if I'm wrong my theology is quite rusty.
Yup. According to Islam, Jesus is a prophet along with Moses and all the others in OT, and of course Muhammad, but he is not divine.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
turtle777
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Apr 25, 2016, 07:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I submit that the best and most inclusive definition of "Christianity" is "Follower of Jesus Christ (according to one's understanding)".

OAW
No, that's falling short. FOLLOWING alone is not enough. The rich young ruler 'followed' Jesus, but was not willing to give it all up.

Being a DISCIPLE of Jesus is at the core of being a true Christian.

-t
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 25, 2016, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Being a DISCIPLE of Jesus is at the core of being a true Christian.
You're using qualifiers, though, and it reeks of a true scotsman fallacy.
     
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Apr 25, 2016, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo
The key difference between Christians and non-Christians such as Jehovah’s Witnesses is the doctrine of the Trinity. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The highlighted portion sums up my point quite succinctly. There's simply no getting around it. At the end of the day the "objective measure of reality" that is being referenced in that particular theological doctrine is still rooted in the faith-based premise that it flows from.

OAW
     
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Apr 25, 2016, 10:19 PM
 
The complete portion from Trent Horn's article.
The key difference between Christians and non-Christians such as Jehovah’s Witnesses is the doctrine of the Trinity. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Christians are baptized ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’ Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: “I do.” “The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity” (CCC 232).

But Jehovah’s Witnesses emphatically deny the doctrine of the Trinity. They say the Trinity is “the lie that made God a mystery”[1] and is simply “not a Bible teaching.”[2]
From Luther's small catechism:
Unit 3b - The Trinity
The Trinity:
Three Persons, One God


Our Triune God

The Bible teaches us that God is "Triune."
"Triune" is composed of two Latin words--"Tri" (meaning "three") and "Une" (meaning "one"). The word "Trinity" is derived from "triune" and also means "three-one."

Though the word "Trinity" does not occur in the Bible, the teaching


of the "three-one"-ness of God is. The Bible simply teaches that there is one God, but there are three persons in this one God. The Father, the Bible teaches, is God. The Son, also, is God. So is the Holy Spirit God. But there are not three Gods, but one God.
Explaining The Trinity--The Bible

The Bible teaches the Doctrine of the Trinity in numerous places. The Old Testament Book of Genesis teaches this doctrine in the account of Creation in Genesis 1-2. St. Paul and others in the New Testament also speak of God--Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Jesus taught the Trinity in Matthew 28:19-20. In the Gospel of John, Jesus often mentions God, the Father as well as the God, the Holy Spirit. By also claiming Himself to be God, Jesus Himself teaches us this doctrine in a most convincing way.
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Apr 25, 2016, 10:59 PM
 
Ok. And all of that still doesn't negate my point. You see this is precisely the type of hair-splitting that is so frustrating with organized religion. "Three Persons but One God". But no we aren't "polytheistic"! But the concept of an "omnipotent", "omniscient", and "omnipresent" God being represented as multiple "deities" that are just different MANIFESTATIONS of a singular Supreme Being ... something more approachable and comprehensible to finite human understanding .. oh well that just won't do. Because that's "pagan". We'll just take the CONCEPTS, give the characters in the stories different names and faces, and then just PRETEND that this 3-in-1 thing is something "different" altogether. Even though the spiritual concepts, iconography, and even the most sacred church holidays we practice are based upon religious traditions that predate "Christianity" by MILLENIA. This notion of the "Virgin Birth" or even the "Sacrificed and Resurrected Savior" ... let's just act like we INVENTED all that. One thing I respect about Islam. They are hardcore monotheists. No 3-in-1. No 30-in-1. No 3,000,000-in-1. Just 1!!! They don't find themselves in the position of having to explain why their theology posits that 3-in-1 isn't "polytheistic" ... but 30-in-1 or 300-in-1 is. Just saying ...

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 25, 2016 at 11:10 PM. )
     
Chongo
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Apr 25, 2016, 11:22 PM
 
It sounds like you've been watching Zeitgeist the movie.
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OAW
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Apr 25, 2016, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
It sounds like you've been watching Zeitgeist the movie.
Actually I've never seen it. And quite frankly I'm not particularly sure about what you are getting at. But I am a Catholic school student in high school and college. So I'm very familiar with the theology. But I'm also a student of comparative theology, ancient African religions, and history. So the derivations and parallels are rather self-evident. What I'm NOT is someone who believes that acceptance of a particular scriptural text (e.g. Bible, Torah, Qu'ran, etc.) and/or its respective theological commentary (e.g. Catechism, Talmud, Hadith, etc.) in any way qualifies any human being to delude themselves into thinking that they alone can comprehend the very concept of God.

OAW
     
Chongo
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Apr 25, 2016, 11:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
One thing I respect about Islam. They are hardcore monotheists.

OAW
So is Judaism.

Do you know what the Koran teaches about Mary?
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OAW
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Apr 26, 2016, 12:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
So is Judaism.
Indeed.

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Do you know what the Koran teaches about Mary?
Certainly. The Qu'ran gives Mary more props than the Bible. It too speaks of the "Virgin Birth" because it's also a derivative scriptural text. But it wholly rejects the notion that either Mary or her son Jesus (Issa) was "divine". Because per that particular scriptural text ...

Originally Posted by Holy Qur'an (112:1-4)
He is Allah, the One and Only Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like Him.
By far Christianity and Islam are the two largest religions in the world. There are approx. 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet. Even more Christians. Say an alien from a planet 1000 light years away decides to pay us a visit and human beings in their incessant arrogance decide to proselytize. Who should such a being listen to when it comes to the question of the "divinity" of one human on an insignificant third planet orbiting a distant star? One of TRILLIONS of stars in a vast universe? And if your answer is fundamentally rooted in "Because the Bible/Qu'ran says so." then again you've just proven my point.

But let's step away from the theoretical and focus on the concrete. The reality is that nowhere in the Bible does Jesus himself make an explicit claim to "divinity". Certainly that is said about him by others ... but never by the man himself. It's at best implied by the attributions to Jesus ... depending upon one's interpretation of the scriptural text. Now if one is raised and taught to believe a certain interpretation one way or the other that's what one will generally believe. My only point here is that a whole lot of other people read the same words and understand them differently.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 26, 2016 at 12:44 AM. )
     
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Apr 26, 2016, 03:04 AM
 
Muslims believe in Jesus too, as do many Buddhists, Hindus, and Jews, does that make them all Christian?

Like I said in the other thread, I don't care what people call themselves. They want to say they're Christian, so be it, the term is as much a cultural identity as it is a religion, anyway. However, there is a criteria for what is objectively defined as Christian, within the faith, backed by millennia of tradition and doctrine, it's as much the establishment within the Apostolic tradition as it is what Jesus said and taught. There are two halves to it, both equal.
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OAW
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Apr 26, 2016, 08:48 AM
 
Sunnis consider Shias to not be Muslims based upon "millenia of tradition and doctrine". And we see how that's working out in the Middle East.

OAW
     
Chongo
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Apr 26, 2016, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Indeed.



Certainly. The Qu'ran gives Mary more props than the Bible. It too speaks of the "Virgin Birth" because it's also a derivative scriptural text. But it wholly rejects the notion that either Mary or her son Jesus (Issa) was "divine". Because per that particular scriptural text ...
It also teaches that Mary is the sister of Aaron. That would make Mary really old when the Angel Gabriel paid her a visit.



By far Christianity and Islam are the two largest religions in the world. There are approx. 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet. Even more Christians. Say an alien from a planet 1000 light years away decides to pay us a visit and human beings in their incessant arrogance decide to proselytize. Who should such a being listen to when it comes to the question of the "divinity" of one human on an insignificant third planet orbiting a distant star? One of TRILLIONS of stars in a vast universe? And if your answer is fundamentally rooted in "Because the Bible/Qu'ran says so." then again you've just proven my point.
All they need to do is compare the life of Jesus to that of Mohammed. Jesus gave his life for others, Mohammed took the life of others.

But let's step away from the theoretical and focus on the concrete. The reality is that nowhere in the Bible does Jesus himself make an explicit claim to "divinity". Certainly that is said about him by others ... but never by the man himself. It's at best implied by the attributions to Jesus ... depending upon one's interpretation of the scriptural text. Now if one is raised and taught to believe a certain interpretation one way or the other that's what one will generally believe. My only point here is that a whole lot of other people read the same words and understand them differently.

OAW
This is why we 2000 years of magisterial teaching.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...&version=RSVCE
Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch
26 But an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south[a] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert road. 27 And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Canda′ce the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this:

“As a sheep led to the slaughter
or a lamb before its shearer is dumb,
so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken up from the earth.”

34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus. 36 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?”[b] 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azo′tus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesare′a.
The Divinity of Christ | Catholic Answers
Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be g.asped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

As the following quotes show, the early Church Fathers also recognized that Jesus Christ is God and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth.
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Waragainstsleep
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Apr 26, 2016, 12:33 PM
 
Christianity = New Age Socialist Judaism.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
OAW
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Apr 26, 2016, 02:10 PM
 
@Chongo,

I'm a bit perplexed here. I was very plain in my statement ...

Originally Posted by OAW
The reality is that nowhere in the Bible does Jesus himself make an explicit claim to "divinity". Certainly that is said about him by others ... but never by the man himself. It's at best implied by the attributions to Jesus ... depending upon one's interpretation of the scriptural text.
Yet you turn around and argue a point that's not in dispute by referencing a bunch of bible passages where other people claim Jesus to be divine.

In any event, let's address the one reference you made where Jesus was actually speaking ...

Originally Posted by John 8:58
Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Well the Judeans took issue with that so let's address it. I'll only quote 3 different translations just to see how the versions portray certain parts quite differently.

Originally Posted by John 10:22-39
Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
New International Version

Originally Posted by John 10:22-39
And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand.
King James Version

Originally Posted by John 10:22-39
But it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem and it was winter. And Yeshua was walking in The Temple on the porch of Solomon. And the Judeans surrounded him and were saying, "How long will you keep our souls in suspense? If you are The Messiah, tell us plainly." Yeshua answered and said to them, "I have told you, and you do not believe, and the works that I do in the Name of my Father, they testify of Me." "But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep, just as I said to you." "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow Me." "And I am giving them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them from my hand." "For my Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand." "I and my Father, We are One."

And the Judeans picked up stones again to stone him. And Yeshua said to them, "Many excellent works from the presence of my Father I have shown you. For which of those works are you stoning me?" The Judeans were saying to him, "It is not for excellent works that we are stoning you, but because you blaspheme, and as you are a man, you make yourself God." Yeshua said to them,"Is it not written in your law, 'I have said, "You are gods"'?"[/I] "If he called those men gods because The Word of God was with them and the scripture cannot be destroyed", "Are you saying to The One whom The Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme', because I said to you, 'I am The Son of God.'?" "If I am not doing the works of my Father, you should not believe me", "But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe those deeds, so that you may know and that you may believe that my Father is in me and I in my Father." And they again sought to seize him, and he escaped from their hands.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English

In this passage it's clear that Jesus defends himself against charges of blasphemy (i.e the use of "I Am" and referring to himself as the "Son of God") by referencing Hebrew scripture which says ...

Originally Posted by Psalm 82:6
“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
Jesus is NOT making a distinction between himself and his audience ... it's quite evident that he's telling them that he is only calling himself something that Hebrew scripture calls all of them. In any event, it's interesting that the New International Version adds a concept that other translations do not.

Originally Posted by NIV
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world
Originally Posted by KJV
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world
Originally Posted by APE
Are you saying to The One whom The Father sanctified and sent into the world
Other translations use the term "consecrated". And how are these words defined?

sanctify - set apart or declare holy; consecrate.

consecrate - make or declare something holy. dedicate formally to a religious or divine purpose.

So where does this "as his very own" part come from? Tipping the scales a bit? Because most translations reflect Jesus' claim of a "holy or divine purpose" in this passage ... not "divinity" in the sense of having some special or unique relationship with God. Especially in light of the fact that he just finished referencing Psalm 82:6. This is a prime example of what I'm talking about when I say that INTERPRETATION plays a huge role in the formation of DOCTRINE. And there are denominations that read these same passages and simply don't come to the same conclusions that other denominations do when it comes to the topic of the divinity of Jesus. Are they in the minority? Most definitely. But as I indicated to CTP ... the vast majority of the world's Muslims are Sunni. But the 10% of the Islamic world that is Shia would certainly take umbrage at the suggestion that they aren't "Muslim" as defined by the majority Sunni.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 26, 2016 at 02:25 PM. )
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Apr 26, 2016, 02:23 PM
 
^^ You're only helping support the argument that JWs aren't Christian, because Christians believe Jesus was a human being and God himself. So... okay?
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nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
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Apr 26, 2016, 02:35 PM
 
Did this thread spawn from Prince's death?
     
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Apr 26, 2016, 02:46 PM
 
This thread was formerly known as RIP Prince.
     
OAW
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Apr 26, 2016, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
^^ You're only helping support the argument that JWs aren't Christian, because Christians believe Jesus was a human being and God himself. So... okay?
No. What I'm actually doing is distinguishing between "Christianity" as defined by religious tradition ... and "Christianity" as defined by how some denominations interpret the Bible. Because the two don't always coincide. Case in point ... the Seventh Day Adventists have a pretty incontrovertible case that there is no scriptural basis for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Was it done anyway by the Roman Catholic Church? Yes. Was it ordered by Emperor Constantine in order to syncretize his newly co-opted adopted "Christian" religion with the existing religious practices of his "pagan" subjects? The historical record makes a very case that this is exactly what happened. But let's set that aside for now. The point is that the overwhelming majority of Christians believe in worship on Sunday. But there are other Christians who do not. The same principle applies to the concept of the Trinity. The early Church was rife with disagreement on this topic and it took the Council of Nicea in 325 AD to get everyones ducks in a row. At least when it came to the Roman Catholic Church. But let's not pretend that everyone who considered themselves to be "Christian" has always been of the same mind on this issue. And just as reasonable people can disagree in the 1st and 2nd centuries reasonable people can disagree in 21st century. That's all I'm saying.

OAW
     
Chongo
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Apr 26, 2016, 03:04 PM
 
You jumped from John 8 to 10.

no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
So, Saint Thomas was wrong when he said:
“My Lord and my God!” John 20:28
Did Jesus correct St. Thomas and tell him that he is not God?

These are the words of Jesus, not Saint Paul.
John 14:8-21Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; 14 if you ask[a] anything in my name, I will do it.
When speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well: John 4:25-26
25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”
There is of course St Peter's declaration.
Matthew 16:13-20 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

Peter’s Declaration about Jesus
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare′a Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli′jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”[a] 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[b] 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[c] and on this rock[d] I will build my church, and the powers of death[e] shall not prevail against it.[f] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[g] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.
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