[Mike S.]

Greyscale? What on earth for?

What happens when the Finder is in it's "aqua mode" (toolbars collapsed, etc.)? How the heck did they accomplish such a crazy dual mode to begin with? I know it's easy with Cocoa but Carbon...

Maybe the GUI community should get together and lobby Stardock or the original Kaleidoscope creators to work on an OS X app.

Apple's out to lunch on these things, after reading these forums for a while it sounds like the whole X GUI is built with bailing wire and chewing gum with a liberal use of duct tape.

It looks nice on the outside so it serves their purpose but geez with the fresh start X and Quartz provided the way they're proceeding is really disappointing.

[mrtew]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
...just about any theme is going to look like a dog's breakfast applied to the new Finder (Aqua hacks notwithstanding - they use true grayscale backgrounds).

I don't know.... More than half of the themes for OSX use grayscale window fill pxms and should work on the new Finder fine, and only half of those are Aqua mods. It shouldn't be that bad. And most themes with a 'cast' to them like the bluish purple of BBX Mercury would look almost as good grayscale in my opinion. What I don't understand is if the Finder contains it's own resources, why you say that it's going to look bad with a theme appliled. It seems like it would look pretty much like iTunes or Quicktime.... exactly the same as if no theme was applied. Can you clarify whether themes affect the Finder or not? I'm so confused

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by mrtew:
... And most themes with a 'cast' to them like the bluish purple of BBX Mercury would look almost as good grayscale in my opinion.

Mercury looks dumb in grayscale... there's no such thing as true grayscale in the real world anyways (and certainly not in metals). The purplish tinge in Mercury's metals is a good part of what made it popular [[ in fact, prior to BBX Platinum, I don't recall ever seeing a metal GUI element rendered in anything other than grayscale, but now it's more common - strange but true ]] - metal designs generally look flat and uninteresting in grayscale, IMHO. As do black designs like Omega - it's only 8% saturation, but it does make a difference in richness and believability. Besides, grayscale is the worst possible choice when you consider that it will always have a temperature cast anyways - very few people have press-calibrated monitors (like mine), so it'll be pinky here, greenish there, blue here, etc... better to steer the display one way or another towards your intended target. Believe me - true neutral gray looks pukey (for GUI stuff anyways) on a well-calibrated monitor. It's not the happy cool ever-so-slightly-bluish gray you're probably used to seeing.

Just because half (or most) of the OSX themes out there currently use grayscale backgrounds doesn't mean that grayscale is the best possible option by any means. It should be every themer and theme user's desire that we have as much flexibility as possible so the possibilities are as close to endless as they can be. How can you dismiss whether non-grayscale themes are even important to the platform when you haven't yet seen the all of the possible designs down the road from now? That's just silly.

Some might be happy producing grayscale-background-only designs from here on in, but I'd definitely go mad (and I'd stop producing Mac kits until there was a work-around).

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by mrtew:
[BWhat I don't understand is if the Finder contains it's own resources, why you say that it's going to look bad with a theme appliled. It seems like it would look pretty much like iTunes or Quicktime.... exactly the same as if no theme was applied. Can you clarify whether themes affect the Finder or not? I'm so confused [/B]

The Finder in the WWDC preview of panther calls on the same metal resources as Cocoa apps like Safari and iChat (it doesn't have its own embedded metal resources like Quicktime or iTunes even though it's a Carbon app)... trouble is, apps like iChat and Safari will use full-color replacement graphics - but the Panther Finder uses metal like no other app, it's limited to grayscale and does a wierd alpha-blending/multiplying thing with the resources totally unlike iChat and Safari. So even if you do limit yourself to grayscale, you may not get the same results in the Finder that you do in apps like iChat and Safari. It's a mess. The best we can hope for (unless Apple has reworked the Finder implementation of metals for final release) is a 3rd party hack that makes the Finder call on the original Aqua wndow elements or something. (Metalfizer can't demetalfize the Panther Finder because it's not a Cocoa app).

Personally I find the fact that all windows call on the same sunken MetalWindow widgets in Panther almost as disturbing as the Finder... I don't like to use physical buttons on titlebars - I prefer glyphs... and seeing as all widgets require the same mask, this presents some problems if the region behind the glyphs isn't identical in both the Aqua and Metal window styles [man, Macs are starting to kinda' suck for theme design].

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by Sage:
Seems to me that it wouldn't work, since Metallifizer only changes Cocoa apps.

Right stupid me, forgot it didn't do Carbon... Let's hope something like it will work one day soon.

I wonder what it would take to hack it so it could use full color textures? It has to be posable.

Well if we get sick of Panther's finder we could use Path Finder or that new one "Matrix"...

[bOOzo]

The latest Panther preview I tried also used gray metal resources for Cocoa apps.. But I guess it's possible to work around that with Demetallifizer. And I'm pretty sure that there will be a hack to make the Finder true Aqua.

[mrtew]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Mercury looks dumb in grayscale... Just because half (or most) of the OSX themes out there currently use grayscale backgrounds doesn't mean that grayscale is the best possible option by any means. Some might be happy producing grayscale-background-only designs from here on in, but I'd definitely go mad (and I'd stop producing Mac kits until there was a work-around).

You are too exaggerative! I didn't even imply that grey was the best option, I just meant there was a lot of room between 'ideal' and 'dogpoo'. I actually think that the limitations of themeing are part of it's magic. It's cool to see what people can do within the very tight 'rules' of Aqua. Without that theming could go off like K-schemes where most stuff was just ridiculous. It's like car design... without the 'rules' of mass production, affordability, and practicality, cars would looks as stupid as most showcars do with only the occasional standout that was done with good taste. And your threats to quit theming are getting tiresome.... at least release a theme first!

And did you say that Mercury is an example of a non-greyscale metal? I never thought that was supposed to be metal. It looks like black plastic and white plastic to me. That's not supposed to be metal is it?

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by mrtew:
You are too exaggerative! And your threats to quit theming are getting tiresome.... at least release a theme first!

Tiresome? I've only ever said I'd leave theming on the Mac in the context of discussing the limitations Panther (which looks like it may be bad for theming in a lot of people's opinions - not just mine). You might be able to squeeze your imagination into Apple's ever-shrinking box, but I'd much rather hold off and wait till things get better if things just get really stupid (like grayscale-only backgrounds). Jaguar I like - I can live with the 'rules' it presents... Panther, I don't know yet. But if I want to speculate that I'll have to find greener pastures if Panther turns out to be a huge pain in the ass, I will. So there

Originally posted by mrtew:

And did you say that Mercury is an example of a non-greyscale metal? I never thought that was supposed to be metal. It looks like black plastic and white plastic to me. That's not supposed to be metal is it?

? - now I'm really stunned :/ I think you need your monitor fixed (explains a lot).

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by bOOzo:
The latest Panther preview I tried also used gray metal resources for Cocoa apps.. But I guess it's possible to work around that with Demetallifizer. And I'm pretty sure that there will be a hack to make the Finder true Aqua.

D'oh! F*cking Apple. Well if we can Demetallfize Cocoa and un-metal the Finder, that's probably not so bad. Still sucks compared to Jaguar (but who's going to stick with Jaguar after Panther's released? Expos� alone is probably the single-most useful innovation I've ever seen).

[Imperial Guard]

I will be with "Jaguar" until "SBC" updates my DSL Router configs/software, which they said would take 6 months to a year for full compatibility with "Panther".

Strange, huh?

[codywalton]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
Maybe the GUI community should get together and lobby Stardock or the original Kaleidoscope creators to work on an OS X app.

Oh, yes! please.

If we could get Stardock (who made working in Windows tolerable) to work on OSX they could make the GIU un-f*****g-believable.

Who do we need to petition to make this happen?

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
D'oh! F*cking Apple. Well if we can Demetallfize Cocoa and un-metal the Finder, that's probably not so bad. Still sucks compared to Jaguar (but who's going to stick with Jaguar after Panther's released? Expos� alone is probably the single-most useful innovation I've ever seen).

Ya I know Unsanity's got APE working under panther aside from fast user switching messing with things. Demetallfizer should work like it did in Jag.

I'm going to keep using Jag until my Unsanity Haxies work under Panther.

[Dace]

Actually, I thought BBX Mercury looked "plastic-y" too... the black part only though. Even your Hypersleek K-Schemes looked a tad "plastic-y" as well as this new Omega teaser poster (looks like a poster for a new videogame console : ). But I have bad senses, colour class was not my forte.

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by Dace:
Actually, I thought BBX Mercury looked "plastic-y" too... the black part only though. Even your Hypersleek K-Schemes looked a tad "plastic-y" as well as this new Omega teaser poster (looks like a poster for a new videogame console : ). But I have bad senses, colour class was not my forte.

Well I think it looks like metal, but I can see how one might think it could be plastic too.

[mrtew]

Originally posted by mrtew:
And did you say that Mercury is an example of a non-greyscale metal? I never thought that was supposed to be metal. It looks like black plastic and white plastic to me. That's not supposed to be metal is it?

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
? - now I'm really stunned :/ I think you need your monitor fixed (explains a lot).

I installed Mercury again to have another look, and it really is a beautiful theme, and very well made. Compliments again to both you and Max. Truly a classic OSX theme. I checked and my monitor is working fine, and so are my eyes. I've got a degree in Graphic Design and another in Transportation Design from ArtCenter and have extensive experience in rendering metals of all kinds both painted and bare, in school and in my job as a car designer. You are a professional artist who does unbelievably photorealistic and surrealistic metals that are so deceptive the casual viewer might actually believe there is a 3-D object stuck onto his monitor. I tell you of my qualifications and acknowledge yours because I'm not satisfied with your snide brushoff of my question and want to ask you again, what is metallic about Mercury? I don't see it at all. It looks like a perfect rendering of a highly polished clearcoated white and black plastic material, but except for maybe the Finder toolbar buttons I don't see a hint of anything metallic. Your new theme looks like it's going to be a super realistic flat black anodized titanium material though. No? I can't wait to see it!

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by mrtew:


I installed Mercury again to have another look, and it really is a beautiful theme, and very well made. Compliments again to both you and Max. Truly a classic OSX theme. I checked and my monitor is working fine, and so are my eyes. I've got a degree in Graphic Design and another in Transportation Design from ArtCenter and have extensive experience in rendering metals of all kinds both painted and bare, in school and in my job as a car designer. You are a professional artist who does unbelievably photorealistic and surrealistic metals that are so deceptive the casual viewer might actually believe there is a 3-D object stuck onto his monitor. I tell you of my qualifications and acknowledge yours because I'm not satisfied with your snide brushoff of my question and want to ask you again, what is metallic about Mercury? I don't see it at all. It looks like a perfect rendering of a highly polished clearcoated white and black plastic material, but except for maybe the Finder toolbar buttons I don't see a hint of anything metallic. Your new theme looks like it's going to be a super realistic flat black anodized titanium material though. No? I can't wait to see it!

I didnt even know it was supposed to be metal. It does look like plastic, in fact it looks like rounded plastic (like the coloured mould plastics you use in tech class). Metal has a certain sheen to it, alot diff. than plastic. Apple got it down with brushed metal.


Chris

[codywalton]

Here's my 2�.

Who gives a crap if it's metal or plastic. Mercury is a masterpiece of a theme. As long as BBX and Max are kicking out quality work like that, you could claim it looks like swiss cheeze and I wouldn't care.

[milhouse]

Originally posted by codywalton:
Here's my 2�.

Who gives a crap if it's metal or plastic. Mercury is a masterpiece of a theme. As long as BBX and Max are kicking out quality work like that, you could claim it looks like swiss cheeze and I wouldn't care.

LOL

[mrtew]

Originally posted by codywalton:
Here's my 2�. Who gives a crap if it's metal or plastic. Mercury is a masterpiece of a theme. As long as BBX and Max are kicking out quality work like that, you could claim it looks like swiss cheeze and I wouldn't care.

I said I always thought it was a great theme, and even referred to it as a classic. It's just that BBX was saying that other metal themes are not nearly as realistic in their metalness as his Mercury theme is because they are grayscale, not full color, and several people were surprised to hear that it was even supposed to be metal at all. So in answer to your question, I care what themes are supposed to look like, and how they are perceived by the users, especially themes from respected themers. Now I have a question for you. This is a theming forum. When people say they like or don't like themes or discuss what they look like someone like you will alway chime in and say, "who cares; either use it or not but don't say/ask that... bla bla bla". Why are you implying that people shouldn't discuss themes too much here?

[NetworkShadow]

I think w are a bit off topic now... But Mercury is my 2nd favorite OS X theme, TuXedo is my first. Omega will be taking the lead for sure, a dark theme by BBX... I can't ask for more.

[codywalton]

Originally posted by mrtew:
I said I always thought it was a great theme, and even referred to it as a classic. It's just that BBX was saying that other metal themes are not nearly as realistic in their metalness as his Mercury theme is because they are grayscale, not full color, and several people were surprised to hear that it was even supposed to be metal at all. So in answer to your question, I care what themes are supposed to look like, and how they are perceived by the users, especially themes from respected themers. Now I have a question for you. This is a theming forum. When people say they like or don't like themes or discuss what they look like someone like you will alway chime in and say, "who cares; either use it or not but don't say/ask that... bla bla bla". Why are you implying that people shouldn't discuss themes too much here?

You missunderstand me. I love themeing and Gui tweaks, otherwise I souldn't be reading this forum. I was merely suggesting that this argument over wether Mercury is metal or plastic has gone too far. It's a mute point, as BBX says it's metal. He made it, he thinks it looks like metal. end of story.

So now we can stop with the metal/plastic talk and BBX can get back to working on the new theme

[bbxstudio]

I don't mind if people see Mercury as plastic It's actually a simulation of a silver auto paint with a heavy clearcoat gloss (which is plastic), so it's both metal and plastic. Don't feel you have to tiptoe around criticizing it - Mercury's what I'm best known for I guess, but I don't consider it my best work by any means... I've learned so much in the time since I did it that I would do it completely differently if I had to do it again - I have my own list of things about it that bug me.

Omega isn't anodized aluminum or black metal - it started out as a matte carbon surface, but it's since evolved into something closer to Darth Vader's body armor (a black reinforced polycarbon-plastic composite, I guess - the teaser logo's surface will be updated shortly). I did this mostly to deal with contrast issues. Now an Omega button looks just spiffy on a white background - whereas before it would almost disappear. Takes a lot of work to make black with highlights look black and not gray or charcoal, but I'm very happy with where it's going - the icons alone are blowing my mind right now

[catsank]

bbxstudio - For a guy who does not want to tease - your sure good at it !

[FB Eye]

Are you planning on a simultanious launch of the new BBX GUI supersite, BBXstudio.com?

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by FB Eye:
Are you planning on a simultanious launch of the new BBX GUI supersite, BBXstudio.com?

GUI supersite? I'll have a dedicated Omega subsite up, but the deadlines on this one are tight - the other elements of the site will have to wait until after this one's released.

[FB Eye]

GUI supersite? Well yeah, I was just quoting what I've read here:

MMicons

Look at the bottom right of that huge Miraikane ad

[quandarry]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Omega isn't anodized aluminum or black metal - it started out as a matte carbon surface, but it's since evolved into something closer to Darth Vader's body armor (a black reinforced polycarbon-plastic composite...

it's funny you should mention this because 'aluminum alloy' by max reminds me of the white polycarbon-plastic of the stormtroopers armor of starwars...

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by FB Eye:
GUI supersite? Well yeah, I was just quoting what I've read here:

MMicons

Look at the bottom right of that huge Miraikane ad

D'oh [[ calmly yanks foot from mouth ]] - well, um, I guess I owe you a supersite then... It will eventually be a supersite I guess (as I get more stuff done), but what I probably (I think) meant by that is that it's not a general-purpose GUI portal or anything, but rather will be hosting all of the BBX-inspired/ported/derived/sanctioned content by myself and others, including (or probably dominated by) the Windows stuff. So for example, the BBX OMEGA� site will not only feature the official kit and updates, but will also eventually host all of the user-created icons, desktop graphics, MP3 skins, etc. that might pop up as time progresses. By the time everybody's bored to death of it, there should be a ton of stuff there (er, I think). If it works well on this first of the new ones, I'll follow up with more of the same for each kit I release. Yeah, that's it.

[digitaljames]

BB, earlier in the thread you mentioned icons....are you making them or is Mikkel?

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
D'oh [[ calmly yanks foot from mouth ]] - of the same for each kit I release. Yeah, that's it.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by digitaljames:
BB, earlier in the thread you mentioned icons....are you making them or is Mikkel?

I'm doing these ones myself - I'll also be including construction kits so users/others can create them based on templates as well (assuming they have a semi-modern version of Photoshop). At first I though 'oh god, dozens of OSX icons, what a pain', but they're really fun (and are easier to whip up en masse than the 32x32 pixel OS9 variety I'm used to).

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
I'm doing these ones myself - I'll also be including construction kits so users/others can create them based on templates as well (assuming they have a semi-modern version of Photoshop). At first I though 'oh god, dozens of OSX icons, what a pain', but they're really fun (and are easier to whip up en masse than the 32x32 pixel OS9 variety I'm used to).

Yup, definitely fun

Good to hear that you're going to include the construction kits.

[NetworkShadow]

BBX: So are you still on track for your target release date so far?

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
BBX: So are you still on track for your target release date so far?

Sure looks that way (although there's no specific target date - just soonish Been working on it steady... The OSX theme itself has been the hardest part by far - I can't stress enuff just what a huge pain in the ass skinning OSX is, more so when you're trying to change the shape and style of everything there is to change. Some stuff is being extremely stubborn and seems to be assembled all half-assed. But as long as I can get it all to look somewhat like my Photoshop composite, I'll be happy. The XP version will probably be much closer to the core design - but that's the price you pay for when trying to squeeze your imagination into Aqua's confines I guess. It won't necessarily be the most practical OSX theme out there - but it'll definitely be a lot of dark futuristic fun I warn you though - there's not a gumdrop in sight.

[NetworkShadow]

I hate gum drops anyway. I'm sure it will look great even if it's not quite what you had wanted it to be.

Now I'm wondering... if Apple is so good at hardware design, why are they "half-assed" at interface design? Well as long as we can make cool themes for Mac, I'm happy.

[Mike S.]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
INow I'm wondering... if Apple is so good at hardware design, why are they "half-assed" at interface design?

Because they fired all the people that cared?

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
Because they fired all the people that cared?

That could be it... it's the only logical explanation.

[drnkn_stylz]

Also, it's not like Mac is the dominating PC platform right now. You'd think Apple would be a bit more leniant on things like themes, since customization is a big factor to a lot of people nowadays.

[codywalton]

Originally posted by drnkn_stylz:
Also, it's not like Mac is the dominating PC platform right now. You'd think Apple would be a bit more leniant on things like themes, since customization is a big factor to a lot of people nowadays.

I may be wrong about this, because it's just what I've hear from other people online. But I've heard that Steve HATES themes. Why? idunno, but that's what I heard.

[drnkn_stylz]

Steve seems to want everything Apple to be his way. I can understand that, but not allowing us to make themes and GUI enhancements to our liking is ridiculous! Why do you think Windows is so popular? Any company can make the computers, and it's hella easy to customize the shell to anything you want. You can make a Windows machine act near identical to Mac!

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by codywalton:
I may be wrong about this... But I've heard that Steve HATES themes.

This is true - apparently at one meeting he even physically threw a copy of Apple's interface guidelines in Arlo Rose's face (while ranting and cursing and threatening of course)... Or so the story goes...

[[ Arlo's one of the guys responsible for Kaleidoscope - now he's the co-creator of Konfabulator (I think he also designed the modern Classic OS8/9 theme while working at Apple and did that Eazel/QNX theme for Linux ]]

[Jerome_69]

Originally posted by drnkn_stylz:
You can make a Windows machine act near identical to Mac!

look like a mac... maybe
act like a mac... no sorry

[NetworkShadow]

Sucks that Steve doesn't like themes... well I should say hates themes. It was probably the crappie k-schemes that made him hate them lol but if he saw some of the awesome themes as of late I would hope, change his mind. He sure is a control freak though, but it may be for the better for the most part.


Hay bbx care to give us a % complete estimate on Omega?

[christianclark]

I use bbx mercury [ OS X ] all the time. and I am using the icons from mmicons too?

BBX Omega might look very sweet, cool and awesome, I just have to see how it looks with OS X. AND......I hope you or someone creates "icons" for BBX Omega too?

I think BBX Omega will be a great theme for Matrix.

Christian

[swiz]

Originally posted by drnkn_stylz:
Why do you think Windows is so popular?

Wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that it runs on the cheapest equipment available unlike OSX. (Cheapest in $ and quality BTW)

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by swiz:
Wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that it runs on the cheapest equipment available unlike OSX. (Cheapest in $ and quality BTW)

True

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by christianclark:
[B.I hope you or someone creates "icons" for BBX Omega too?/B]

It'll come with icons right out of the box

[Mike S.]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
This is true - apparently at one meeting he even physically threw a copy of Apple's interface guidelines in Arlo Rose's face (while ranting and cursing and threatening of course)... Or so the story goes...

What hypocrisy! I hope Steve has changed his tune on themes as he's gotten older seeing as Apple, under his watch, walks all over the guidelines and reinvents them at will...

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Hay bbx care to give us a % complete estimate on Omega?

It's too fluid a process with too many elements to nail down with a percentage... but it's coming along nicely.

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
It's too fluid a process with too many elements to nail down with a percentage... but it's coming along nicely.

Not even a guess? OH well "it's coming along nicely" will have to do for now.

[christianclark]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
It'll come with icons right out of the box

Thanks!

I am curious now. Who will do the OS X version? You or Max? Because I have to know a way to get the sweet theme w/ icons.

Or you are waiting to finish your site too?

Christian