[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Maybe it's because "lawbreaker" does not necessarily mean "bad person".

Sometimes laws are unjust, or unjustified, or they cause people to choose between being a "lawbreaker" and prospering.

I'm not a scofflaw, I rarely even exceed the speed limit. I'm one of those people that sit at the traffic light at two in the morning until it turns green. If my country became like Mexico I wouldn't hesitate to skip to another country. Laws be damned.

Well, with that attitude, it sure won't be long til get you get a chance to prove yourself.

Yes, the plight of the mexican illegal is one which is truly heartbreaking, which saddens me when i think about it. But at what cost do we keep opening our borders? I'm not willing to pay more taxes so they can stay here illegally, and you don't have the constitutional right to make me. As it stands, they are here illegally and should go or be forced to go home to their sovereign nation. Everyone who is not here legally. All of them. Regardless of race.

If they wish to immigrate, do as my fiance and her family did and do it the legal way, and I will welcome them as my countrymen. All of them. Regardless of race.

[ebuddy]

Would I try to break the immigration laws of my destination to leave behind a corrupted cesspool of failed governance and abject poverty? Hell yeah! Would I feign outrage when the folks at my destination have a problem with me breaking their immigration laws and perpetuating abject poverty in their country? No. I certainly wouldn't march with the flag of the cesspool of failed governance and expect the US to change its laws to accommodate my sense of entitlement to their wares.

I see a lot of arguments by those who, because they are fully aware of who comprises the majority illegal demographic, assume a law allowing immigration law enforcement must necessarily be racial profiling. The demographic is not any more a concern for the state of Arizona than it is for you. The only difference is, they're obligated to deal with the problems of illegal immigration in the interest of the people of Arizona. You know... the legal ones; minorities included.

IMO, the opposition to this is more obstructionist than substantive. Again, it seems like this is being argued as something akin to internment camps or the bombing of compounds for crying out loud. It just isn't. It is Arizona enforcing laws the Federal government drafted for a vote then failed to enforce for a vote. It doesn't work both ways and there is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that claims a state must endure the result of a do-nothing, politically hamstrung Federal entity.

They are well within their jurisdiction legally, affirmed by a great deal of legal precedent, and if this issue goes to any court, that court will be forced to acknowledge the ineptitude of the Federal entity and one way or another, the problem will be solved.

Go Gov. Brewer!!! After all, she's just doing what Napolitano was trying to do when she was governor of Arizona, fix bad Federal immigration policy enforcement.

[BadKosh]

So when we break into your house you'll welcome us and give us health care, and you will continue to feed us...all on your dime?

[BadKosh]

That would be Australia or New Zealand. Both 'settled' by convicts.

"do you have *any* idea of how the USA became independent? Your country was *founded* by a bunch of lawbreakers."

Different times and after the killings of unarmed citizens by British soldiers we figured things would only get worse if they stayed. I see your weak little country was under the British thumb for a lot longer.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

That would be Australia or New Zealand. Both 'settled' by convicts.

I'm not referring to your founders being convicts. As far as I know, they were all stand up guys. But, they broke British law to become independent. They were "lawbreakers". You're very concerned about lawbreakers becoming citizens, but your *first* citizens became such by being lawbreakers.

Generally, I agree with you about immigrants. They should go through the proper channel to obtain legal status and those who are discovered to be in the country illegally should be sent back to their country of citizenship. I'm only taking issue with your presumption that illegal immigrants are by default bad people. Quite a few of them will be good, hardworking, people taking the initiative to try and improve their lives.

[BadKosh]

Today, illegal immigrants ARE BAD PEOPLE. Lousy citizens of their own country and would be as bad here. They didn't stay in their own country. They didn't organize and change things to improve their country. They broke the law to be here. They will further break laws as they get fake/stolen SSN cards and such. Others come here 9 months pregnant to have that anchor baby, further screwing the legal citizens. The libs want to let 'em stay, slapping the faces of those who are trying to get here legally. We don't need "illegals to citizens" bills either. We need the borders closed. This fall the Dems will get that rude awakening about being wrong and not really listening to the citizens.

[olePigeon]

Edit: Nevermind.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Edit: Nevermind.

You win.

[BadKosh]

Make sure to follow the various illegals and their violent protests this weekend. Several groups have promised violence. Looks like a good chance to see what types of people they are. Remember as you watch just WHO supports them, and listen to the lies and BS they will be saying.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Make sure to follow the various illegals and their violent protests this weekend. Several groups have promised violence. Looks like a good chance to see what types of people they are. Remember as you watch just WHO supports them, and listen to the lies and BS they will be saying.

No need, I'm sure you'll keep us informed. Links to sources be damned.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

You win.

Well, I was going to point out that my great grandmother must be a horrible, evil person for leaving Germany and coming to America illegally to escape being killed with 6 million other Jews.

Meh, what the hell. BadKosh you're an idiot.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Today, illegal immigrants ARE BAD PEOPLE. Lousy citizens of their own country and would be as bad here. They didn't stay in their own country. They didn't organize and change things to improve their country. They broke the law to be here. They will further break laws as they get fake/stolen SSN cards and such. Others come here 9 months pregnant to have that anchor baby, further screwing the legal citizens. The libs want to let 'em stay, slapping the faces of those who are trying to get here legally. We don't need "illegals to citizens" bills either. We need the borders closed. This fall the Dems will get that rude awakening about being wrong and not really listening to the citizens.

So what is your response to the links I posted earlier, namely the fact that property crime and violent crime have dropped dramatically in Arizona (much faster than the national average), despite no drop in illegal immigration, and that the border fence serves to keep illegals in, rather than out?

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Well, I was going to point out that my great grandmother must be a horrible, evil person for leaving Germany and coming to America illegally to escape being killed with 6 million other Jews.

Meh, what the hell. BadKosh you're an idiot.

Gee how far back in time do we need to go? I had relatives in Scotland in the 1800's who escaped the English and came here without papers. The issue was not generalities but the mid 1980's up to today, when the illegals really started to flow into the US. When neither political side wanted to do squat about the enforcement of laws. Perhaps it was due to corruption of the officials, the lack of funding, or typical failed political policies from both sides. What do we do NOW? Have we already gone past that tipping point? Will the political 'leaders' man up and enforce the laws on the books? We are to blame because we trusted these political types and didn't demand action from those who wanted our vote. Look at the states that freely gave away their citizens tax dollars on these lawbreakers. CA is a prime example of bleeding heart emotion driven liberals policies putting their state into serious financial state. It is the bad policies and lack of enforcement that has caused this. The policies weren't changed when it was obvious they were failing, but instead, as with liberals they just threw more tax dollars at the problem instead of fixing the issue. This is also how the current admin and congress operating. Take that as a warning.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

No need, I'm sure you'll keep us informed. Links to sources be damned.

Do you need to ask someone to turn the TV on for you?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Gee how far back in time do we need to go?

You're conflating two issues.
1. What to do about illegal immigration
2. Your assertion that illegal immigrants are bad people

If *today's* illegal immigrants are bad people based on the fact that they did something illegal, than *all* illegal immigrants throughout history were bad people. Your Scottish ancestors, olePigeon's Jewish great-grandmother and all the people who came with them = bad people. Clearly, however, you believe that *some* groups of illegal immigrants were *not* bad people, which means that your assertion that *today's* illegal immigrants are bad people is completely subjective.

The question of the "goodness" of illegal immigrants is completely separate from the question of what to do about illegal immigration since one can argue that illegal immigrants are not all bad people without arguing that illegal immigration should be allowed.

Personally, I suspect that illegal immigrants have about the same good:bad ratio as with *any* population.

[ort888]

Most illegal immigrants are just trying to earn money to take care of their families. Most of them are good people who care more for their families then the laws of another country.

Yes, it's a problem, but people tend to dehumanize them, and it's very sad. These are people. Real people in a terrible situation, who are just trying to get by in life.

I wonder how different the whole illegal immigrant situation would be if Mexicans were white and spoke English.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Most illegal immigrants are just trying to earn money to take care of their families. Most of them are good people who care more for their families then the laws of another country.

I agree with this. In fact, if I were living in Mexico I'd be clamoring for the border myself. This doesn't make uncontrolled immigration a good idea. For what it's worth, there are a great deal of legal Hispanics and Latinos that need to earn money and take care of their families. Why should their jobs be taken, wages driven down, and social services exhausted by illegal residents who have placed their personal well-being above the legal residents?

Yes, it's a problem, but people tend to dehumanize them, and it's very sad. These are people. Real people in a terrible situation, who are just trying to get by in life.

Agreed, but this doesn't mean that unfettered immigration is good policy.

I wonder how different the whole illegal immigrant situation would be if Mexicans were white and spoke English.

Hmm. First of all, few states enjoy as much diversity as Arizona. I don't think this is the product of racism. By not relying on race as a determinant factor of residency, any policy drafted to mitigate illegal immigration would have to include the requirement that all legal immigrants carry documentation as proof of their legal residency. Come to think of it, that's exactly how current policy reads. Fascinating.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I agree with this. In fact, if I were living in Mexico I'd be clamoring for the border myself. This doesn't make unfettered immigration a good idea ... Agreed, but this doesn't mean that unfettered immigration is good policy.

And, that's not what we're saying ... at least a few of us. Personally, I agree that illegal immigration is a bad thing for any country and needs to be controlled.

But, I disagree completely with BadKosh's assertion that illegal immigrants are bad people. I think it's a simplistic attempt at rationalizing one's opposition to an issue.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

And, that's not what we're saying ... at least a few of us. Personally, I agree that illegal immigration is a bad thing for any country and needs to be controlled.

But, I disagree completely with BadKosh's assertion that illegal immigrants are bad people. I think it's a simplistic attempt at rationalizing one's opposition to an issue.

I was addressing ort888, you're addressing BadKosh. I'm taking issue with the arguments I'm seeing in opposition to this law that are not actually in opposition to the law itself. SB1070 mirrors Federal legislation and while few are challenging the ideal of a Federal immigration policy, they argue against its enforcement. The only difference is that SB1070 is a legitimate attempt to actually enforce immigration law.

If it makes you feel better; any arguments such as "they are good people" or "they are bad people" fail to address the reason for laws and the importance of enforcing them.

[Dork.]

You all do realize that if an illegal uses a fake SSN to work, it means that taxes are being withheld, right? Since these illegals are not likely to be filing their taxes (since if they use a fake SSN to work, the implication is that they want to hide that income), that money is going into the treasury, but never coming out. If we send them all home, we lose all that income! We should set aside a special SSN for the illegals to use, since they are basically paying us to work here!

[BadKosh]

Compounding fraud with illegal entry or invasion is somehow good?