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Hydra · 03:11 AM

Here are a few of my personal observations about my CTO dual G5 (9800+BT) which I received on friday, in no particular order, for anyone interested:

Power Usage-
This thing sucks juice out of the electrical outlet like nobody's business. I had an APC Back-ups PRO 500 UPS and I couldn't run any cpu intensive task for more than 2 minutes before it shut down and killed the power. It would start screeching a shrill warning alarm as soon as the G5 started to crank up to speed.
I now have a Belkin 670W 1200VA UPS and it seems to run fine now ( I really like the software better with the Belkin than the APC as it tells you all types of power draw info). I like having the UPS because I live in an old house and the power may not be all that great. If you have a normal UPS and get a dual G5 plan on getting a new one.

The Fans-
The fans run faster than the normal idle speeds when starting up for a few seconds and then slow down until CPU load gets much higher. Normal activity like surfing, MS Word, Photoshop for 95% of the time etc. will not cause the fans to spin faster. When running a game or something 3-D intensive like Cinebench the fans starts to spool up but never get very loud (never even close to my dual 800).
Firewire Target disk mode is the exception. When the G5 is in this mode it is the loudest desktop I have ever heard. I howls like a heavy duty server and the amount of air it turns over is unbelievable. It literally is equivalent to the sound and air movement of a hair dryer on a low setting.

The Case-
Well built. Well designed. Top notch materials, fit and finish. Looks good. Feels good. Big and solid feeling. Tastes bad. Just kidding on the last one. Much has already been said about this.

The keyboard and mouse-
I don't mind the keyboard. it is a little more compact than the older one. The action is a little more tinny but it's OK. Not up to the superior build quality of the tower. I like the USB ports on the back. The mouse is still in the wrapper - I have Logitech MX-700 which I think is near perfection.

Performance-
This thing really flies compared to my older dual 800. Photoshop flys. FCP4 and its other apps fly. Games are very nice. I played Spearhead MOHAA on my G4(Geforce3) where some levels would chug along at 20 fps with a resolution of 1024x640 (wide-screen) and quality on medium settings on my 20" CD. Those same levels on the dual G5 runs near 50 fps with MAX settings and resolution at a max 1680x1050. Much of the same goes for UT2003 but I have only played that a little so far. Very impressive. IE now runs almost as fast as Safari did on my dual 800 - that says allot.

Sound-
The built in speaker is woeful. I think the bare metal case does not help in this regard at all. It has a cheap sound quality to it. The headphone jack seems more powerful than my dual 800 ( great having a jack on the front). I have a HQ set of Sony MDR-F1 headphones that my G4 couldn't really drive to a very high sound level but the G5's amp must be better ( this could also be a result of having a quieter computer but I still think it's better).

Compatibility/reliability-
I have only found that VPC won't run. Everything I have tried to run works. I didn't expect otherwise but you never know. I have only had it for a few days now but no kernel panics or mysterious quitting apps. The only crashes were when the UPS shut off the power.

I hope everyone finds my long-winded post worth reading. I would be happy to answer any questions if I can.

-Jerry C.

Link · Sep 23, 2003, 04:55 AM

Very nice. Now if only I could afford to make the exact same jump you did.

I KNEW it'd be quieter.. well heck even the original MDDs were quieter

:mumbles something about people with too much money: I bet if I hadn't bought a 22" CD at the time I'd have a g5 now

Cipher13 · Sep 23, 2003, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by Link:
:mumbles something about people with too much money: I bet if I hadn't bought a 22" CD at the time I'd have a g5 now

...says the fourteen year old with a dual 800 and a cinema display?

AssassyN · Sep 23, 2003, 08:53 AM

Very nice post Hydra, thanks a bunch! Seems the Dual G5 can really game! Nice!

tikki · Sep 23, 2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
...says the fourteen year old with a dual 800 and a cinema display?

Cipher: 1
Zealot: 0

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Sep 23, 2003, 02:15 PM

Anyone know if you can use the Soundsticks on the G5's? I don't see why not but you never know.

tikki · Sep 23, 2003, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Anyone know if you can use the Soundsticks on the G5's? I don't see why not but you never know.

I got them to work on a 1.6Ghz G5.

freaktornado · 03:59 PM

Among the things I bought as I was waiting for my Dual G5 to ship was a new UPS. I ended up with a 1000va APC for $99!!

I'm also upgrading from a Dual 800, and I also have an MX700. We have very similar setups Hydra.

Hydra · Sep 23, 2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by freaktornado:
Among the things I bought as I was waiting for my Dual G5 to ship was a new UPS. I ended up with a 1000va APC for $99!!

I'm also upgrading from a Dual 800, and I also have an MX700. We have very similar setups Hydra.

Yeah Apple's really making me pay for addicting me to dual PowerMac's as you full well know.

I was torn between the APC (the same one you bought I think)and the Belkin UPS and being a former APC customer I took the leap to the Belkin thinking I would give up the power managemant software that APC has. I bought the Belkin thinking it had no OSX software (it says nothing on the box about OSX) but it turns out the Belkin software is much much better for OSX. Way more options for timed shut-downs and restarts and power settings and monitors.

I just figured at the time the Belkin was rated at 670W and the APC was only 600W. This might not sound like a big difference but the dual G5's PS is rated at 600W so I figured a little cushion was in order considering the way it overloaded my APC 500 and shut it down in short order. Also the belkin is black not beige which I liked a little beter, not that I see it much under the desk. I think you'll be fine with the APC and the $99 price is excellent. I paid $150 at Staples for the Belkin. According to the power monitoring software it hovers at around 40% maximum load with bursts up to 75% with heavier stuff.

-Jerry C.

ourisman · Sep 23, 2003, 04:56 PM

I see that amazon.com is selling the Belkin Universal UPS 1200 VA for $118.99. Belkin's web page doesn't list MAC compatability re. software. Is this the same item?

ASIMO · Sep 23, 2003, 04:57 PM

I, for one, found your post to be medium-long.

mac freak · Sep 23, 2003, 05:10 PM

Could you run a UT2003 benchmark using Asbestos and Antalus, 1600x1200, max settings? Does the Mac app use the same benchmark program as the Windoze version? I wanna see how perfomance compares to my PC... the DP G5 w/9800 finally seems like it may be fastest thang out there. I'd love to play my games on the Mac again, when releases are simultaneous

(the main reason to own a PC, of course, is to avoid them dang delayed releases).

Hydra · Sep 23, 2003, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by ourisman:
I see that amazon.com is selling the Belkin Universal UPS 1200 VA for $118.99. Belkin's web page doesn't list MAC compatability re. software. Is this the same item?

The Belkin Universal UPS 1200VA is it. It's amazing how bad Belkin is at showing it has OSX software. They go through all the trouble of writing some nice software and don't bother to tell anyone about it. If you go to Belkin's site look up the UPS, you can dl the software and pdf manual which has screenshots of the software called Bulldog.

You can actually run the software w/o the UPS after you run the installer but it will just tell you that no UPS is detected on the USB bus. Here's a link but it is one of those sites that may not let another session be linked to. The software was just updated on 9/16.

http://web.belkin.com/support/download/

bulldog pdf

-Jerry C.

Link · Sep 23, 2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by tikki:
Cipher: 1
Zealot: 0

I didn't even realize there was a game.

Kahpoosta Kid · 07:26 PM

Originally posted by Link:
I didn't even realize there was a game.

Macmall has it for $120 with free shipping.

And congrats on your G5. Well worth the read.

giantmike · Sep 23, 2003, 07:21 PM

Hydra, quick question if you may. Are you saying the APC UPS would shut itself down quickly when running battery, or while you have utility power?

I ask because I recently got a 725 VA UPS, and was hoping I could put the G5 (almost same config as you) on it, and have a little battery backup time.

Hydra · Sep 23, 2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by giantmike:
Hydra, quick question if you may. Are you saying the APC UPS would shut itself down quickly when running battery, or while you have utility power?

I ask because I recently got a 725 VA UPS, and was hoping I could put the G5 (almost same config as you) on it, and have a little battery backup time.

As soon as I would run something cpu-intensive, like Spearhead, the UPS would start to screech an overload warning and a red light I have never seen before would light up on the front of the ups. This was all with normal utility power. I think it has to do with the voltage regulation of a UPS. If the power draw exceeds what the batteries of the UPS can handle it will not be able to keep feeding the computer.

As to battery back-up my APS 500 would likely not be able to go for very long at all at normal loads.

-Jerry C.

giantmike · Sep 23, 2003, 07:59 PM

Thanks for the informaiton. Hopefully my 725 can handle it. If not, I may get my folks to get a larger unit, and trade them

Hydra · 12:15 AM

Originally posted by giantmike:
Thanks for the informaiton. Hopefully my 725 can handle it. If not, I may get my folks to get a larger unit, and trade them

In this case the more important factor is the Watt rating. The VA rating only shows you how long the batteries should last. What is the Wattage rating of the 725 you have? If it is much below the 600W PS of the Dual G5 you may have problems. I'm not an electrical engineer but this is the way I understand it.

-Jerry C.

Apple Pro Underwear · Sep 23, 2003, 08:51 PM

thks

load of info

Hydra · Sep 23, 2003, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by mac freak:
Could you run a UT2003 benchmark using Asbestos and Antalus, 1600x1200, max settings? Does the Mac app use the same benchmark program as the Windoze version?

I think the actual benchmark is built into the game itself. The app only launches the demo at specific settings. Following are results from all the available demo's @ 1280x1024 with all the highest settings. If I figure how to do them at 1680x1050 (native 20" Cinema Display rez) I do them for you. I'm going to get more RAM but I don't know what effect this will have on fps.

1280*1024 highest settings
dual G5 (512MB RAM) Radeon 9800

flyby antulus
/Score: 79.283043
Min FPS: 41.052471
Average FPS: 89.883400
Max FPS: 214.650925

flyby asbestos
/Score: 79.923409
Min FPS: 47.765553
Average FPS: 137.134048
Max FPS: 328.840668

flyby citadel
/Score: 70.313408
Min FPS: 23.477673
Average FPS: 79.405777
Max FPS: 228.981567

botmatch antalus
/Score: 34.575390
Min FPS: 12.976949
Average FPS: 34.576248
Max FPS: 76.790764

botmatch asbestos
/Score: 52.969437
Min FPS: 9.073969
Average FPS: 53.167801
Max FPS: 121.805794

botmatch anubis
/Score: 54.339302
Min FPS: 17.663300
Average FPS: 55.994423
Max FPS: 131.364502

botmatch citadel
/Score: 38.981995
Min FPS: 10.875954
Average FPS: 38.917248
Max FPS: 94.528534

-Jerry C.

giantmike · Sep 23, 2003, 09:41 PM

The watt rating is 450, which is below the 600 W power supply. However, a 600W power supplpy is not constantly supplying 600 W of power to a computer. There is extra wattage for more hard drives, PCI cards, etc. I would be surprised if a 1 hard drive system with no Airport Extreme, modem, or bluetooth, and no PCI cards install would use more than 400 W of power.

Hydra · Sep 23, 2003, 10:02 PM

I just checked the specs on my old APC 500 and was surprised that it is only rated at 500 VA, 315 watts. I thought it was more than 315w. Also I have a 20" CD hooked up to the G5 that draws some power too. 450 should be OK. I just ran a bunch of stuff at the same time and under heavy load it mostly stayed under 55% so I would say 400W would be a minimum w/o any PCI's or multiple powered firewire devices.

-Jerry C.

Spliffdaddy · Sep 24, 2003, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by Hydra:
In this case the more important factor is the Watt rating. The VA rating only shows you how long the batteries should last. What is the Wattage rating of the 725 you have? If it is much below the 600W PS of the Dual G5 you may have problems. I'm not electrical engineer but this is the way I understand it.

-Jerry C.

The wattage rating of power supplies is for their output power. They consume a great deal more wattage than they supply (that explains the fan that removes heat..which is wasted electricity). Figure on roughly 60-70% efficiency and you'll be in the ballpark.

Hydra · Sep 24, 2003, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Figure on roughly 60-70% efficiency and you'll be in the ballpark.

So are you saying that you need a UPS that has a rating much higher than 400W. From what you say this makes sense.

-Jerry C.

krove · Sep 24, 2003, 12:23 AM

I bet the reason for the fans coming on at full speed in FireWire Target Disk mode is the lack of any open firmware code to direct and maintain the G5's thermal management system. Currently, OS X has that code, but other OSes (like linux) have to suffer with full-speed fans all the time. Same goes for booting into open firmware and firewire target disk mode.

GENERAL_SMILEY · Sep 24, 2003, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by krove:
I bet the reason for the fans coming on at full speed in FireWire Target Disk mode is the lack of any open firmware code to direct and maintain the G5's thermal management system. Currently, OS X has that code, but other OSes (like linux) have to suffer with full-speed fans all the time. Same goes for booting into open firmware and firewire target disk mode.

Dead on. Happens noticeably with powerbooks as well.

denim · Sep 24, 2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by freaktornado:
Among the things I bought as I was waiting for my Dual G5 to ship was a new UPS. I ended up with a 1000va APC for $99!!

Cheap!! What's the switching time on that beast?

Jermsy · Sep 24, 2003, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by krove:
I bet the reason for the fans coming on at full speed in FireWire Target Disk mode is the lack of any open firmware code to direct and maintain the G5's thermal management system. Currently, OS X has that code, but other OSes (like linux) have to suffer with full-speed fans all the time. Same goes for booting into open firmware and firewire target disk mode.

I have seen lots of people mention putting the G5 in firewire disk mode, presumably to transfer files and setting over. Is there a reason not to just put the OTHER computer in firewire disk mode?

Arkham_c · Sep 24, 2003, 10:25 AM

I've got a Back UPS 650, and it has a 410W output. I've had a Dell P3/733, a B&W G3, and a Sawtooth G4 all plugged into it at the same time, along with a 20" Trinitron CRT, and have never had it overload.

I hope that the G5 will work with this UPS. It's replacing the G3 and the G4, but I'd still like it to share the UPS with the Dell.

Leonis · Sep 24, 2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by Jermsy:
I have seen lots of people mention putting the G5 in firewire disk mode, presumably to transfer files and setting over. Is there a reason not to just put the OTHER computer in firewire disk mode?

Maybe people are going from the B/W G3s?

Kenneth · Sep 24, 2003, 10:57 AM

so you are a gamer?

Congrats on your dualie.

Hydra · Sep 24, 2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
I've got a Back UPS 650, and it has a 410W output. I've had a Dell P3/733, a B&W G3, and a Sawtooth G4 all plugged into it at the same time

Funny how this thread turned into a power supply/UPS discussion.

UPS's usually have some outlets which are battery back-up and some that are just normal protected outlets like a surge-suppressor. If you plug some into the protected outlets and some into the battery back-up outlets you may not be actually stressing the 410W limit of your UPS. My dual 800 has a 350W PS (I think)but it never gave the old APC any trouble. So as long as the systems don't have too many things in the PCI slots or any other power hungry peripherals you can exceed the Wattage rating.

Firewire Target disk mode is essentially the computer starting up w/o OSX to give you access to the Hard drives. OSX controls all the fans in normal operation. W/o OSX booted the computer will eventually go into a safe-mode and that means the fans will go into high-speed. I think it's a fail-safe - It OSX crashes and the computer is still running you don't want the hardware to melt to when the cooling system loses OS control it will just run at the maximum speed for safety.

To answer why I put the G5 in target disk mode and not my G4 - I did that but there was one problem. My G4 in firewire target desk mode only mounted the primary drive on my G5's desktop and I couldn't access the other drive in the G4. I then put the G5 into firewire target disk mode to drag the files the other way.

-Jerry C.

Foxdog175 · Sep 24, 2003, 11:58 AM

I need some help, guys. I've no clue what you're talking about. I ordered a G5/Dual 2/gig of RAM/Radeon 9800/250x2 HD. What do I need to use this machine? Are you saying that without a UPS, I won't be able to use my G5? Can someone link me up, directly, to what I need exactly so I can use my G5 when it arrives? Also; will I be able to leave it on 24/7 as I do my Dual 800 right now?

ckohler · Sep 24, 2003, 12:13 PM

What they are saying is that some Uniteruped Power Supplies don't produce enough wattage to power a full blown G5. I hope my little no-name brand UPS will work but if it doesn't then I'll just have to plug my G5 directly into the wall. You do not HAVE to have a UPS to use your G5.

And yes, you will be able to leave your G5 plugged into the wall and running all the time if you like no problem. Although, I do recommend you at least set your monitor to shut off automatically after 15 minutes of inactivity to help it last longer.

zigzag · Sep 24, 2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Foxdog175:
I need some help, guys. I've no clue what you're talking about. I ordered a G5/Dual 2/gig of RAM/Radeon 9800/250x2 HD. What do I need to use this machine? Are you saying that without a UPS, I won't be able to use my G5? Can someone link me up, directly, to what I need exactly so I can use my G5 when it arrives? Also; will I be able to leave it on 24/7 as I do my Dual 800 right now?

A UPS (uninterrupted power supply) is an accessory, you don't have to have one to operate your G5. It's basically a battery back-up device that keeps your machine running in case your main power goes down, so you don't lose any data. I've never used one but a lot of people feel that they're an essential safeguard. I would get one if I dealt with critical data, but I don't. I just plug my machines into the wall or a surge protector.

Hydra · Sep 24, 2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Kenneth:
so you are a gamer?

Congrats on your dualie.

Yes and no. I love games but I don't play them as much as I would like. I think as far as Mac's go, the dual G5 is excellent but not cheap. I mostly play Spearhead online with a pal of mine in NJ while we iChat (audio only) in the background for personal insults. The dual 800 would start to get choppy at times doing this but the G5 just keeps humming along. Gamers would be probably better off w/ the 1.8 G5 w/ a Radeon because outside of Q3 most games only benefit a litlle from smp. Gamers would most likely be better off getting an X-Box or gamecube in the end due to price and selection

-Jerry C

Elderloc · Sep 26, 2003, 12:59 AM

what version of VPC did you try? I heard VPC 5 will work it did not have that option to use psuedo indian. I own 3, 5, and 6 I'll try it when my dual comes.

Hydra · Sep 26, 2003, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Elderloc:
what version of VPC did you try? I heard VPC 5 will work it did not have that option to use psuedo indian. I own 3, 5, and 6 I'll try it when my dual comes.

I tried 5 and 6. 6 just tells you the processor is not supported and then shuts down while 5 will launch and actually started to boot the Windows quest OS for about 2 seconds and then "unexpectedly quit" a bunch of times.

-Jerry C.

Foxdog175 · Sep 26, 2003, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by ckohler:
...to help it last longer.

What do you mean by that? Is it possible the Daul G5 can just shut off on its own somehow? Aside from that, I've never used a UPS (I think I understand what you mean now) and I don't plan on getting one. Thanks for clearing that up, fellas.

ckohler · Sep 26, 2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Foxdog175:
What do you mean by that? Is it possible the Daul G5 can just shut off on its own somehow?

Yes but only if you want it to. It's called "Energy Saving" and all modern computers (and their displays) have this ability. They can go into a low power sleep mode if it doesn't detect you've used it for a while. By "sleeping", your computer can extend the life of its components and the life of your display.

But like I said, if you don't want your computer to go to sleep it doesn't have to. You will have full control in OSX over setting how long (if ever) your G5 and it's monitor wait before going to sleep. You can even set them to sleep separatly. What I do is never let my computer go to sleep but I do set the monitor to go to sleep after 15 minutes of inactivity. It saves energy and like I said, helps the monitor to last longer.

Foxdog175 · Sep 26, 2003, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by ckohler:
...It saves energy and like I said, helps the monitor to last longer.

Right, right. I miss-understood you. I also leave the monitor at the 15 min. mark, but set it to one minute just before I go to bed. Thanks for the fast reply.

a2daj · Sep 26, 2003, 06:48 PM

The only reason anyone would ever be better off with a single proc machine (gaming or not) is if they needed to save money. Even if most games don't take complete advantage of the dual, it's still preferably to have a dual for gaming as the sound can be spun off to a different CPU and the main game thread can hog the other CPU. Sure, for most games it might only be a 10% increase, but that's still 10%. Plus you'd get the extra benefit of not having to turn every other app off to get good performance.

Hydra · Sep 26, 2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by a2daj:
The only reason anyone would ever be better off with a single proc machine (gaming or not) is if they needed to save money.

I agree but money is money and I can't see spending 3+ grand on a Mac gaming box. It's cheaper to buy a 1.8 G5 and an X-box along with a boatload of X-box games for the price of the dual G5. The only reason anyone would be better off with a Miata over a Ferrari is to save money too (and insurance

). $600 is still $600. Don't get me wrong, I love my Dual G5 and think it's worth every penny but I can't recommend it as gaming machine unless money is no object.

Does the dual G5/9800 play everything available on the Mac platform very well? Yes. I bought it for mostly other things but figured the 9800 would be nice for games too and at another $300 on top of $3000 it didn't seem too bad.

-Jerry C.

Hydra · Sep 26, 2003, 09:36 PM

oops double post- first one.

-Jerry C.

Cadaver · Sep 28, 2003, 03:49 AM

Here's something interesting for people who want to know how fast the dual 2.0's really are...

OmniWeb 4.5 feels as fast as any other browser. How's that!

Boochie · Sep 28, 2003, 10:43 AM

I'm torn between getting a stock Dual 2 GHz machine and a 1.8 single-CPU box with the high-end graphics card. Thoughts? I do some light 3D gaming now and then. Which machine will give me better general performance?

striker100 · Sep 28, 2003, 11:10 AM

In my opinion if that is your choise, I would get the dual 2gig.
Just like RAM you can always add a better video card later but you can't add the faster/extra processor.
I would use the stock 9600 Pro video card which is no slouch and wait until the replacement for the 9800 Pro is released.
Then if you still want to upgrade the video card you can do it easily.

Boochie · Sep 28, 2003, 11:18 AM

An excellent strategy, thanks!

If I can't make my credit card payment next month it's all your fault.

Originally posted by striker100:
In my opinion if that is your choise, I would get the dual 2gig.
Just like RAM you can always add a better video card later but you can't add the faster/extra processor.
I would use the stock 9600 Pro video card which is no slouch and wait until the replacement for the 9800 Pro is released.
Then if you still want to upgrade the video card you can do it easily.

Hydra · Sep 28, 2003, 12:58 PM

Yes if you can afford the dual definitely do so. I would much rather have the dual G5 w/9600 than the 1.8 w/9800. It is far easier to upgrade the dual to a 9800 than it will be upgrade the 1.8 to a dual. It's tough to beat the dual esp. if you like to have a bunch of things running at the same time like most of us.

-Jerry C.