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I Hate People (Page 2)
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Shaddim
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May 12, 2014, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
What exactly did you see?
I've seen people receive tickets for doing what you say you've done, it isn't legal (even if you're trying to keep others from doing things that are also illegal). Two wrongs don't make a right.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
subego  (op)
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May 12, 2014, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
This one? BMW X-something?
Cinco
     
Laminar
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May 12, 2014, 04:51 PM
 
I heard one of those fire up next to me at the grocery store a while back, the V8 sounded very nice. Because of that, I found myself looking into what it would take to get a V8 SUV to replace the wife's Edge when it's time. I think I like the QX70 with the 5.0 the best. That or a TDI Audi, though the wife said she doesn't think she'd like having to search for a station with diesel.
     
subego  (op)
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May 12, 2014, 05:29 PM
 
No real complaints past being a little jumpy when you throttle up from idle.

It's biggest pros IME, beyond the big engine (you want the 4.4), are it's small for an SUV, but weighs about as much as a Suburban.


Edit: gets 19-20 MPG, which isn't great, but pretty good for what it is.
( Last edited by subego; May 12, 2014 at 05:48 PM. )
     
Shaddim
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May 12, 2014, 05:57 PM
 
It's like the Cayenne, weighs over 3 tons, but I do love the ride smoothness.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
subego  (op)
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May 12, 2014, 06:52 PM
 
I'd say I need to get near 100 before it feels like I'm going fast.

In the Cherokee, 100 was for when you felt like risking your life. Tippy mother****er, too. Listen to your tires at that speed, or face the consequences.


Edit: since I've become an adult, I only do crazy shit like that on clear interstates outside of urban areas.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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May 12, 2014, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I've seen people receive tickets for doing what you say you've done, it isn't legal (even if you're trying to keep others from doing things that are also illegal). Two wrongs don't make a right.
Your post reminds me of a joke I heard. It goes, "I asked my daughter what kind of sandwich she was eating and she said 'it's like peanut butter and jelly.' Curious to see what 'like' peanut butter and jelly means, I looked for myself and saw that it was ham and cheese. I asked her how is that 'like' peanut butter and jelly, and she said 'it's made of 2 things.'"

A good anecdote contains details. That's what makes it believable. At the very least the minimal detail would be a re-stating of what it is you consider "what you say you've done" to be, so that we can decide whether you think it's like what you allegedly saw simply because "it's made of 2 things." It would also be splendid if you describe the thing you saw, since what you responded to was intentionally generalized and lacking specific details.

tl;dr: you're bluffing, otherwise you wouldn't be so stingy with the details.
     
Face Ache
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May 12, 2014, 10:27 PM
 
The V8 SUVs drive me crazy! They start braking 75 metres out from the corner, slow to a crawl, lumber around the corner like a whale on a skateboard, and then FLOOR IT to the next corner. Rinse. Repeat. Hard to overtake on the straights. Painful to be behind on the curves.

All I want to do is the speed limit (roughly ) and to go 'round the bendy bits without slowing down too much.
     
Laminar
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May 12, 2014, 10:44 PM
 
This is Iowa. There are no bendy bits.
     
Shaddim
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May 13, 2014, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Your post reminds me of a joke I heard. It goes, "I asked my daughter what kind of sandwich she was eating and she said 'it's like peanut butter and jelly.' Curious to see what 'like' peanut butter and jelly means, I looked for myself and saw that it was ham and cheese. I asked her how is that 'like' peanut butter and jelly, and she said 'it's made of 2 things.'"

A good anecdote contains details. That's what makes it believable. At the very least the minimal detail would be a re-stating of what it is you consider "what you say you've done" to be, so that we can decide whether you think it's like what you allegedly saw simply because "it's made of 2 things." It would also be splendid if you describe the thing you saw, since what you responded to was intentionally generalized and lacking specific details.

tl;dr: you're bluffing, otherwise you wouldn't be so stingy with the details.
Hmm, sorry you wasted your time with that, but it was actually because I was on a mobile device and didn't have the patience to give a long reply. Cutting-off, brake-checking, lane-blocking, intercepting, the things people do when they feel like trying to be a highway patrolman for a day. There's no logical reason for any of that, you only put others at risk. What I saw was someone on the left flooring their accelerator to keep someone on the right from merging ahead of them (they were both stopped at a redlight). That person on the left, they were pulled over and charged with reckless driving (drag racing). Don't do that, it could potentially be a lot of points on your license, higher insurance rates, loss of life and limb, etc..

The cavalier attitude regarding "leaving some fancy shiny fender" on your car, that's disconcerting, too.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
subego  (op)
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May 13, 2014, 01:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
The V8 SUVs drive me crazy! They start braking 75 metres out from the corner, slow to a crawl, lumber around the corner like a whale on a skateboard, and then FLOOR IT to the next corner. Rinse. Repeat. Hard to overtake on the straights. Painful to be behind on the curves.

All I want to do is the speed limit (roughly ) and to go 'round the bendy bits without slowing down too much.
That's one benefit of the extra mass in the X5. It's not tippy, so you can easily take turns at 20 MPH over what they're rated.
     
ebuddy
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May 13, 2014, 07:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Is the other contestant waiting behind still more vehicles, or are they driving slow in the face of empty pavement? Around here it is always the former, never the latter. In that case, "getting to point B faster" is a game, because your gain means my loss. I feel no obligation to enable you to nudge me backward so you can nudge yourself forward, and then immediately jump on your brakes because you've exceeded the speed of traffic flow in order to push me back.
If I've been behind you the past 10 minutes and you've been driving consistently slow, I may make a lane-change and attempt to pass you. This is often the case where the slow vehicle is backing traffic up and there is a long, open lane in front of them. If all of a sudden, seeing that I've moved lanes in order to pass you, you're no longer driving consistently slow and you're now seemingly matching my passing attempt, you're being silly. I will not force myself back into that lane ahead of you, pushing you back because that's inconsiderate and I'm not an inconsiderate driver. When I witness a driver who is apparently stimulated by others' attempts to pass, I'll hang back and quietly take their lane from them at the next stop light. If I see someone in a beater who is not only fluctuating their rate of speed in some attempt to rid the roadways of those evil "passers", but is now driving recklessly in order to hold that lane from others, I'll generally steer well clear of them.

If the speeder (and don't tell me you're not exceeding the posted speed limit when you engage in this behavior) is going to immediately recede into the distance, I don't mind letting them pass. It's when they're going to be waiting in the same queue that I'm waiting in that I go out of my way to undermine their motivation for treating my transportation like it's their video game.
No, you've attributed all kinds of distasteful traits to my driving. Have I ever exceeded the speed limit? I'm sure I have, but that's not the scenario I'm talking about and I'm certainly not the guy weaving in and out of traffic, riding people's asses, and/or forcing myself into the lane, pushing them backward. I'm actually a very conscientious, considerate driver and really the only one who's shown a willingness to be reckless and aggressive here is you.

**As an aside, there's also the guy who, for the last mile has seen the flashing arrows indicating a lane-closure ahead, but will either force themselves in at the last minute or make a play on others' altruism at the last minute which is essentially "cutting in line".

Do you believe that there are speeds others would opt to travel at that you don't think are appropriate?
When I pass someone who is driving slowly, I'm not judging them as driving inappropriately, I'm merely wanting to get around them and move about my way. If they've all of a sudden found the accelerator and it seems to relate to my rate of speed, that's when it becomes a game I did not opt to play, but is being played on me.

I don't see how your claim of ownership to that street is any more innocuous than theirs
You might be confused in your attempt to project your aggressive driving habits on to me? I'm merely talking about passing a slow motorist. It's not about owning a lane, it's about traveling at a preferred rate of speed that may be faster than the slow motorist has opted for... until he sees that someone has an issue with it.

Passing someone on the street is not a crime of reckless or aggressive driving. The fact that you immediately gravitate toward an emotional response in judgment of others may be a contributor to the problem.

I've never seen this*. You do seem to incur a certain amount of ill will on the roads, don't you?
j/k
It's really not all that bad, but it's a subject of conversation I find entertaining.

*Of course, I don't play the closest-spot game in the parking lot either. Why wait for a spot to clear when you could be parked (farther away) and have walked back in the same time? The parking lot game reminds me of a gambler's high; the fact that there was a chance of "losing" makes "winning" more rewarding. It's not because walking an extra 50 paces is such a burden.
When I'm at the grocery store, as a courtesy to the kids who have to go out into the weather to collect all the shopping carts -- I'll often grab my groceries out of the cart, leave the cart in the bay just inside the door, and walk my groceries out to my vehicle. For this reason, I'll usually try to find a closer space and will not think twice about waiting on a good one unless it seems that good one is opening up. i.e. reverse lights. When the reverse lights are on and it is apparent someone is waiting on that spot, it seems reasonable that a considerate person would begin to back out. When that is not the case, it leads me to believe they're not being very considerate, that's all.
ebuddy
     
Uncle Skeleton
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May 13, 2014, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Hmm, sorry you wasted your time with that
You didn't like my story?

Cutting-off, brake-checking, lane-blocking, intercepting, the things people do when they feel like trying to be a highway patrolman for a day.
One out of five is about the same rate as the girl with the sandwich. Kudos.
I don't do any "tactical" lane changes, I only change lanes if I will need to turn or if there is a vehicle that's actually stopped in mine. Not sure what you mean by brake-checking, I rarely use my brakes except when coming to a stop (that's kind of the whole point of positioning in the first place).

There's no logical reason for any of that, you only put others at risk....The cavalier attitude regarding "leaving some fancy shiny fender" on your car, that's disconcerting, too.
There's just as much logical reason as the speeder has: self interest. I leave a reasonable stopping distance in front of me so that I can be relaxed while driving, knowing that I have time to react to the unexpected (and so that my acceleration bursts can be flattened, giving me a smooth comfortable journey). I don't leave it there so someone playing leapfrog can gain 5 seconds on their route, forcing me to fall back in response if I don't want to be 5ms from a collision behind this already self-selected jumpy driver. When I see someone creeping up for my gap, I know that if I don't defend my personal space then no one will. Certainly not the police (since you brought it up). I'm not stupid enough to box someone out when there is a police cruiser in sight, and the leapfrog player I'm sure is thinking the same about his/her behavior. But any of them will be quick to tell you that it's not hard to be aware of when Big Brother is watching and when he isn't. Situational awareness should be a given, with or without ticketing.

As for danger, I create no danger. The gamers create danger no matter how I react, and the only comment I made was that the things they're putting in danger are their things, not mine. Invariably, the other driver realizes this with abundant time left over to abort their hopeless maneuver before any danger is imminent.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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May 13, 2014, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
If I've been behind you the past 10 minutes and you've been driving consistently slow, I may make a lane-change and attempt to pass you.
Just curious, what constitutes slow? Are they below the speed limit? Leaving a gap behind the next car in front?

If all of a sudden, seeing that I've moved lanes in order to pass you, you're no longer driving consistently slow and you're now seemingly matching my passing attempt, you're being silly.
That is not me, but often that is a symptom of being distracted, and the other car (ie you) merely reminds them to return to normal, not necessarily a competition.


No, you've attributed all kinds of distasteful traits to my driving.
By opening with "maybe," I was attempting to present plausible counter-explanations.


I'm actually a very conscientious, considerate driver and really the only one who's shown a willingness to be reckless and aggressive here is you.
I'm surprised at you, given your past predilection for responses in-kind, because that is exactly what I'm describing. I never said I was willing to be reckless and aggressive. Maybe Shaddim's cartoonish embellishments have sent mixed signals. All I said was that often when someone "wants my lane" (read: wants to be ahead of me), I want my lane too, and I have to do very very little in order to keep it. Using half the acceleration as the car beside you is hardly reckless. And if they really do want my lane they are more than welcome to the part behind me.



When I pass someone who is driving slowly, I'm not judging them as driving inappropriately
I was referring to speeders, faster than you. Do no other cars make you apprehensive about driving near them, due to their speed?


You might be confused in your attempt to project your aggressive driving habits on to me? I'm merely talking about passing a slow motorist.
You said it was beneficial if you could remain unseen. That's where it crosses my conceptual line from humdrum to game-like.


It's really not all that bad, but it's a subject of conversation I find entertaining.
I'm glad
It's not like we'll ever have the chance to exchange opinions with other motorists on the road. It's good to get the other party's perspective, even if only by proxy.


When I'm at the grocery store, as a courtesy to the kids who have to go out into the weather to collect all the shopping carts -- I'll often grab my groceries out of the cart, leave the cart in the bay just inside the door, and walk my groceries out to my vehicle. For this reason, I'll usually try to find a closer space and will not think twice about waiting on a good one unless it seems that good one is opening up. i.e. reverse lights. When the reverse lights are on and it is apparent someone is waiting on that spot, it seems reasonable that a considerate person would begin to back out. When that is not the case, it leads me to believe they're not being very considerate, that's all.
I guess I misunderstood you before, when you said "put it in reverse" I was picturing someone backing further into their spot I reckon people have things to do besides driving, and better they do those things in a parking spot than waiting at a green light.

Maybe I'm the only one, but if I have to wait I would rather do it standing and moving anyway, than sitting belted to a chair. I have enough sitting time in my life. Did you hear, sitting is the new smoking?
     
Shaddim
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May 13, 2014, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
You didn't like my story?
it was simply pointless because it was inaccurate. *shrug*

One out of five is about the same rate as the girl with the sandwich. Kudos.
I don't do any "tactical" lane changes, I only change lanes if I will need to turn or if there is a vehicle that's actually stopped in mine. Not sure what you mean by brake-checking, I rarely use my brakes except when coming to a stop (that's kind of the whole point of positioning in the first place).

There's just as much logical reason as the speeder has: self interest. I leave a reasonable stopping distance in front of me so that I can be relaxed while driving, knowing that I have time to react to the unexpected (and so that my acceleration bursts can be flattened, giving me a smooth comfortable journey). I don't leave it there so someone playing leapfrog can gain 5 seconds on their route, forcing me to fall back in response if I don't want to be 5ms from a collision behind this already self-selected jumpy driver. When I see someone creeping up for my gap, I know that if I don't defend my personal space then no one will. Certainly not the police (since you brought it up). I'm not stupid enough to box someone out when there is a police cruiser in sight, and the leapfrog player I'm sure is thinking the same about his/her behavior. But any of them will be quick to tell you that it's not hard to be aware of when Big Brother is watching and when he isn't. Situational awareness should be a given, with or without ticketing.

As for danger, I create no danger. The gamers create danger no matter how I react, and the only comment I made was that the things they're putting in danger are their things, not mine. Invariably, the other driver realizes this with abundant time left over to abort their hopeless maneuver before any danger is imminent.
You seem to drive with a great deal of anger, that's not good. That, combined with how much time you've spent justifying your self-appointed role as patrolman, explains a lot. Again, there's no logical reason for it, except to fuel your own need for competition while driving, in the guise of doing it for the "public good". It's dangerous and could land you in hot water if you get caught. Ultimately, however, do what you will, everything tends to sort itself out over time.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Uncle Skeleton
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May 13, 2014, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
it was simply pointless because it was inaccurate. *shrug*
It turned out to be very accurate. When you finally revealed your perceptions, they were mostly wrong.

You seem to drive with a great deal of anger
Nope

That, combined with how much time you've spent...
Hilarious


justifying your self-appointed role as patrolman
Not everyone wants to be you, champ


Again, there's no logical reason for it, except to fuel your own need for competition while driving
It helps my driving experience quite a bit when a stream of people aren't squeezing in front of me. I said this already.


in the guise of doing it for the "public good".
No not "public good," my good. I do things because they help me (without hurting someone else), same as everyone else.


It's dangerous and could land you in hot water if you get caught.
That's why it's a relief to know that what you're referring to is a hamburglaresque fiction and not at all what I've been describing.
     
subego  (op)
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May 13, 2014, 03:29 PM
 
Netcop here.

This thread is about hating people. Please limit your comments to hatred.
     
Shaddim
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May 13, 2014, 07:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
It turned out to be very accurate. When you finally revealed your perceptions, they were mostly wrong.
I was replying to what you say you do.

Nope


Hilarious
Typical.

Not everyone wants to be you, champ
I'm not a patrolman, I've never given anyone a traffic ticket. Whatever your problem is, you should deal with it in private.

It helps my driving experience quite a bit when a stream of people aren't squeezing in front of me. I said this already.
You didn't say "stream" before, you were talking about how much "big torque" you have in your "beater" and how no one is going to merge in front of you, you big tough guy, you.

No not "public good," my good. I do things because they help me (without hurting someone else), same as everyone else.
There's the rub, it's fun, you want to keep them behind you, Just say it like it is.

That's why it's a relief to know that what you're referring to is a hamburglaresque fiction and not at all what I've been describing.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
ebuddy
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May 14, 2014, 07:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Just curious, what constitutes slow? Are they below the speed limit? Leaving a gap behind the next car in front?
Generally, below the speed limit and leaving a gap in front of them.

That is not me, but often that is a symptom of being distracted, and the other car (ie you) merely reminds them to return to normal, not necessarily a competition.
Good point, I should've included distracted with competitive.

By opening with "maybe," I was attempting to present plausible counter-explanations.
Another good point. I should've said, you're willing to attribute all kinds of negative traits to my driving.

I'm surprised at you, given your past predilection for responses in-kind, because that is exactly what I'm describing. I never said I was willing to be reckless and aggressive. Maybe Shaddim's cartoonish embellishments have sent mixed signals. All I said was that often when someone "wants my lane" (read: wants to be ahead of me), I want my lane too, and I have to do very very little in order to keep it. Using half the acceleration as the car beside you is hardly reckless. And if they really do want my lane they are more than welcome to the part behind me.
Wait... something about leaving a chunk of their shiny fender on your car? That to me indicates a need to hold your lane, so strong that you'd risk a collision with another vehicle. That's reckless driving. If you're using half the acceleration that I am, you're not the one I'm talking about.

I was referring to speeders, faster than you. Do no other cars make you apprehensive about driving near them, due to their speed?
There are other cars that make me apprehensive about driving near them. Beaters with chunks of others' shiny fenders on them may be such an example, but I don't like people who weave in and out of lanes or otherwise drive as if perhaps they're drunk or at the least, severely distracted.

You said it was beneficial if you could remain unseen. That's where it crosses my conceptual line from humdrum to game-like.
It may be a game, but it's not a game I initiated.

I'm glad
It's not like we'll ever have the chance to exchange opinions with other motorists on the road. It's good to get the other party's perspective, even if only by proxy.
And I finally had the opportunity to give you my what-for, but you halved my acceleration and faded into the distance behind me.

I guess I misunderstood you before, when you said "put it in reverse" I was picturing someone backing further into their spot I reckon people have things to do besides driving, and better they do those things in a parking spot than waiting at a green light.

Maybe I'm the only one, but if I have to wait I would rather do it standing and moving anyway, than sitting belted to a chair. I have enough sitting time in my life. Did you hear, sitting is the new smoking?
I did hear that which is one reason I like to get from point A to point B in as little time as possible.
ebuddy
     
Uncle Skeleton
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May 14, 2014, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Netcop here.

This thread is about hating people. Please limit your comments to hatred.
I tried but I can't hate you, Netcop
     
Uncle Skeleton
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May 14, 2014, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I was replying to what you say you do.
Well you're not very good at reading then:

you were talking about how much "big torque" you have in your "beater" and how no one is going to merge in front of you, you big tough guy, you.
Try reading it again. What I said was that the difference between the fastest and slowest car on the road is still not enough to "win" by enough margin (more than a whole car length) to pull in front of the "losing" car. Torque is irrelevant, all that makes a difference is paying attention. Also law enforcement is irrelevant (statistically, and all drivers know it), but one thing that will still motivate the risk-taker in the absence of law enforcement is damage to their higher-value property.


There's the rub, it's fun, you want to keep them behind you, Just say it like it is.
It's demonstrably not fun, otherwise I would seek it out. I avoid driving at all when weather permits.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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May 14, 2014, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Another good point. I should've said, you're willing to attribute all kinds of negative traits to my driving.
You're not willing to do the same?

Wait... something about leaving a chunk of their shiny fender on your car? That to me indicates a need to hold your lane, so strong that you'd risk a collision with another vehicle.
It's no more a risk than being on the road in the first place. Any of the cars you can physically see while driving could go off the rails at any moment and cause a collision with you. The one thing that makes that not happen all day every day is mutual self-interest.

That's reckless driving. If you're using half the acceleration that I am, you're not the one I'm talking about.
Or... you haven't looked beyond the false dichotomy of half-acceleration vs shiny-fender-deterrence. In short, you need more than double my acceleration in order to get more than a whole car-length ahead before the window of opportunity closes. I believe you know this, and it's exactly why you mentioned the blind spot.


It may be a game...

I did hear that which is one reason I like to get from point A to point B in as little time as possible.
What percentage of drive-time do you think these games account for? Just curious
     
ebuddy
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May 14, 2014, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
You're not willing to do the same?
In fact I'd say I'm more willing than you, but for good reason. No one was talking about forcing themselves into a precarious position of collision other than you.

It's no more a risk than being on the road in the first place. Any of the cars you can physically see while driving could go off the rails at any moment and cause a collision with you. The one thing that makes that not happen all day every day is mutual self-interest.
Being on the road involves risk because there are offensive drivers and defensive drivers. If you are one of two drivers in a given encounter and you are both driving offensively, you're willfully contributing to the escalation of risk. i.e. being reckless. What you're telling me is that a mutual interest in a lane may result in a collision between two reckless drivers. None of which applies to me.

Or... you haven't looked beyond the false dichotomy of half-acceleration vs shiny-fender-deterrence. In short, you need more than double my acceleration in order to get more than a whole car-length ahead before the window of opportunity closes. I believe you know this, and it's exactly why you mentioned the blind spot.
You've lost me all the way around on this. First, there are only three known variables in our problem; my rate of speed, your rate of speed, and a car-length. Without a known "window of opportunity" we can figure our quandary thusly;
  • a car-length is on average 18.5'
  • you're traveling 25mph or 36.67'/second
  • I'm traveling 35mph or 51.33'/second
I would overtake you by a full car-length in less than 1.3 seconds or within less than 67 feet of travel and I'm only accelerating 40% more than you, nowhere near "more than double your acceleration". Assuming you're not driving offensively and speeding up to match me of course.

What percentage of drive-time do you think these games account for? Just curious
From my perspective, little to none of my drive-time is spent in gamesmanship. How about you?
ebuddy
     
Uncle Skeleton
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May 15, 2014, 10:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
In fact I'd say I'm more willing than you, but for good reason. No one was talking about forcing themselves into a precarious position of collision other than you.
I seem to recall you describing a maneuver where you rely on the other driver not seeing you to ensure they don't occupy the same space that you intend to occupy. That you can execute this performance "with ease" doesn't differentiate your plan from mine, I just chose not to brag about how easy it was for me.


Being on the road involves risk because there are offensive drivers and defensive drivers. If you are one of two drivers in a given encounter and you are both driving offensively, you're willfully contributing to the escalation of risk. i.e. being reckless. What you're telling me is that a mutual interest in a lane may result in a collision between two reckless drivers. None of which applies to me.
I do appreciate your aplomb at turning phrases, but in this instance you seem to be contradicting yourself. In one sentence you're one of two participants, and in the next you're not involved. It can't be both.

The interest that both parties share in avoiding damage to their own property far outweighs each's interest in shaving a second or two. I am optimistic that other drivers will make an extra effort to be considerate of others' property, but my expectation that they will make the effort for their own property is far stronger than mere optimism.


You've lost me all the way around on this. First, there are only three known variables in our problem; my rate of speed, your rate of speed, and a car-length. Without a known "window of opportunity" we can figure our quandary thusly;
  • a car-length is on average 18.5'
  • you're traveling 25mph or 36.67'/second
  • I'm traveling 35mph or 51.33'/second
I would overtake you by a full car-length in less than 1.3 seconds or within less than 67 feet of travel and I'm only accelerating 40% more than you, nowhere near "more than double your acceleration". Assuming you're not driving offensively and speeding up to match me of course.
You're confusing velocity with acceleration. Obviously we are both "speeding up," that is what acceleration means.


From my perspective, little to none of my drive-time is spent in gamesmanship. How about you?
Sorry for being unclear, I meant how much shorter does gamesmanship make your commute, compared with the alternative?
     
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May 15, 2014, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
YOU!

You're the reason why I play a shrewd game of pole position at stop lights. Knowing the competitive nature of my fellow drivers and that I need their lane, I won't approach the light directly parallel to them at our stop because if I do, the other driver will match my pace off the start to maintain his lane. I hang back, stealthily, in their blind spot and casually take their lane with moderate to little effort required. You deal with what you've got and in my case, it's a slow vehicle.
I shift into 1st gear and place left foot on brake/right foot hovering over accelerator and PUNCH IT! Drives my wife crazy - she keeps her eyes closed when riding anywhere with me.
If you have Ghosts, you have Everything!
     
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May 15, 2014, 12:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I seem to recall you describing a maneuver where you rely on the other driver not seeing you to ensure they don't occupy the same space that you intend to occupy. That you can execute this performance "with ease" doesn't differentiate your plan from mine, I just chose not to brag about how easy it was for me.
Wrong, I chose to avoid a maneuver that would increase the possibility of collision while you seemed okay with the prospect.

I do appreciate your aplomb at turning phrases, but in this instance you seem to be contradicting yourself. In one sentence you're one of two participants, and in the next you're not involved. It can't be both.
No, you attempted to make me a reckless participant by framing "passing" as somehow wrong-doing. That's not me. I'm merely passing a slower driver. If that slower driver decides to prolong our encounter and increase risk by all of a sudden becoming a faster driver to simply maintain a lane, I recognize their nature in a different manner. Safely and stealthily, at the next stop light.

The interest that both parties share in avoiding damage to their own property far outweighs each's interest in shaving a second or two. I am optimistic that other drivers will make an extra effort to be considerate of others' property, but my expectation that they will make the effort for their own property is far stronger than mere optimism.
Hence my surprise at your "chunk of shiny fender" threat.

You're confusing velocity with acceleration. Obviously we are both "speeding up," that is what acceleration means.
I'm not confusing anything. I gave you a specific example of why your notions were fallacious at the outset. It seemed some perspective was in order. i.e. if we're both "speeding up", you couldn't begin to gauge whether or not I'm "more than doubling your acceleration". Again, this was only useful for trying to make me the type of driver you could be angry at instead of realizing that perhaps you're complicit in recklessness by your own admission.

Sorry for being unclear, I meant how much shorter does gamesmanship make your commute, compared with the alternative?
From my perspective, it's not gamesmanship at all. My effective driving saves me time nearly every day.
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May 15, 2014, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Wrong, I chose to avoid a maneuver that would increase the possibility of collision while you seemed okay with the prospect.
I never agreed that anything I describe increases a chance of collision. Our paths are parallel the whole time. The other driver would have to consciously change course in order for there to even be a risk, and I am 100% confident that no other driver would ever make that choice.


No, you attempted to make me a reckless participant by framing "passing" as somehow wrong-doing. That's not me. I'm merely passing a slower driver. If that slower driver decides to prolong our encounter and increase risk by all of a sudden becoming a faster driver to simply maintain a lane, I recognize their nature in a different manner. Safely and stealthily, at the next stop light.
1. I didn't say you are wrong, merely that I can do the same as you, for just as self-interested and acceptable a reason, and your initial judgement of the group that you cast to include me is hypocritical.
2. How is you acting "safely and stealthily" any different than me acting safely and openly?


Hence my surprise at your "chunk of shiny fender" threat.
It's no more a threat than telling a child not to touch the stove or they'll get burned. If that's what you call a "threat" then you're simply using the word incorrectly.


I'm not confusing anything. I gave you a specific example of why your notions were fallacious at the outset. It seemed some perspective was in order.
Relax, bro, I'm honestly just trying to be helpful. Acceleration and velocity are different things. This part is not ambiguous, you're just thinking of the wrong one.


i.e. if we're both "speeding up", you couldn't begin to gauge whether or not I'm "more than doubling your acceleration".
Don't be silly, of course you can. From a reference point of a given velocity (like from within the inside of one of two vehicles starting at the same speed, 0 or otherwise), acceleration is the inverse of time. If it takes me half as long to reach the same speed, then the other car must be accelerating twice as fast (acceleration is the change in velocity divided by time, and if we achieve the same change in velocity but it takes me twice as long, then my acceleration was half).


Again, this was only useful for trying to make me the type of driver you could be angry at instead of realizing that perhaps you're complicit in recklessness by your own admission.
I'm not angry. Do I sound angry? I want to know what I should change in order to sound the way I am.


From my perspective, it's not gamesmanship at all. My effective driving saves me time nearly every day.
I don't care what you call it, I'm just curious how much time you're referring to saving. Do you have a guess?
     
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May 15, 2014, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I never agreed that anything I describe increases a chance of collision. Our paths are parallel the whole time. The other driver would have to consciously change course in order for there to even be a risk, and I am 100% confident that no other driver would ever make that choice.
Given the number of vehicle collisions per day, I'm not near as confident as you that no other driver would ever make that choice.

1. I didn't say you are wrong, merely that I can do the same as you, for just as self-interested and acceptable a reason, and your initial judgement of the group that you cast to include me is hypocritical.
First, you included you -- I did not. Second, we were both acting in self-interest at our original speeds until you were stimulated by me. Your self-interest became about me, not the other way around. Not unlike a child who was perfectly happy with their ball until another child arrives with a slinky.

2. How is you acting "safely and stealthily" any different than me acting safely and openly?
You offered "distracted" as an alternative to competitive. Unless you have another alternative, I'm concluding that neither suggests safety.

It's no more a threat than telling a child not to touch the stove or they'll get burned. If that's what you call a "threat" then you're simply using the word incorrectly.
If you knew that you were to maintain complete oversight and control of the stove at all times while using it, it would be cruel and indeed threatening for you to offer such a warning. Otherwise, you have a much clearer role in the traffic scenario.

Relax, bro, I'm honestly just trying to be helpful. Acceleration and velocity are different things. This part is not ambiguous, you're just thinking of the wrong one.

Don't be silly, of course you can. From a reference point of a given velocity (like from within the inside of one of two vehicles starting at the same speed, 0 or otherwise), acceleration is the inverse of time. If it takes me half as long to reach the same speed, then the other car must be accelerating twice as fast (acceleration is the change in velocity divided by time, and if we achieve the same change in velocity but it takes me twice as long, then my acceleration was half).
While I'm perfectly relaxed here, you seemed to be equivocating your competitive/distracted nature behind the wheel and your complaint was admittedly lost on me out of the gate. It seemed you needed perspective on just how little a "window of opportunity" I'd need, not a kinematic criticism of our discussion. i.e. you almost, sort of addressed 1/3rd of my point.

I'm not angry. Do I sound angry? I want to know what I should change in order to sound the way I am.
As an example, why is the fact that I'd need to more than double your acceleration in order to get more than a whole car-length ahead before the window of opportunity closes relevant to anything we're discussing here? Particularly if you're admittedly accelerating to block me. i.e. so what? This is a natural use of the accelerator for passing another vehicle, no?

I don't care what you call it, I'm just curious how much time you're referring to saving. Do you have a guess?
Maybe 3 months of my life or so. You?
ebuddy
     
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May 15, 2014, 02:25 PM
 
@Uncle Skeleton

Scenario:

Clear highway. We're both in the right lane. You are traveling at a speed you feel comfortable with. I am behind you and have a higher speed I'm comfortable with.

As I try and overtake you on the left, do you speed up?
     
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May 15, 2014, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@Uncle Skeleton

Scenario:

Clear highway. We're both in the right lane. You are traveling at a speed you feel comfortable with. I am behind you and have a higher speed I'm comfortable with.

As I try and overtake you on the left, do you speed up?
Sorry, bigger fish comin' through on the left, Ben-Hur style.
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May 16, 2014, 04:09 AM
 
I think what some people fail to realise is that it is possible to just enjoy driving. If you have a capable car, it is no fun being stuck behind someone who thinks of driving as merely a necessity, and is expressing this by driving slowly in the fast lane in their purely utilitarian Nissan Micra.

I will pass you in the slow lane. Yes, you might speed up to annoy me because you think I am "racing" (hint: I'm not. You are). Yes, you may pull up behind me at the next lights and think to yourself "Aha, Mr Racer Boy! See? You're getting nowhere faster than me!" (although contrary to popular belief, I will occasionally make it through the lights before they go red).

But you're missing the point. The point is I like driving, and you're being an obstacle to my enjoyment (literally). I don't pass you thinking to myself "Ha! Another one behind me!" I'm just trying to enjoy my drive.

If you do drive slowly in the fast lane and speed up when people try to overtake, then you're a far more aggressive driver than me.
     
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May 16, 2014, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Given the number of vehicle collisions per day, I'm not near as confident as you that no other driver would ever make that choice.
"Given the number of collisions per day" is fallacious logic. If that was your standard, then you would not trust the thousands of cars per day that approach you from the oncoming lane. If one of them decided to swerve into your lane, there is absolutely no way you could react fast enough to save yourself. You are routinely subjected to mortal danger, with nothing to protect yourself beyond the consistent self-interest of the other drivers whom you can be 100% certain will make every effort to avoid mutual catastrophe.

I'm sorry, but if you can't rely on other drivers to make logical self-interested decisions, then you never drive or even ride in a car. Yes, crashes happen anyway, as do lightening strikes, but that is an illogical response to this thread.


First, you included you -- I did not.
How so? If you say "Seinfeld fans annoy me," and my response is "I'm a Seinfeld fan," did you include me with your criteria or did I include me by deciding to reveal that I am a fan?

Your initial post described a behavior that I do. That includes me, whether I say anything or not.

Second, we were both acting in self-interest at our original speeds until you were stimulated by me. Your self-interest became about me, not the other way around.
That's bull. If your self-interest negatively impacts my self-interest, mine is not "about you" just because it prevents you from walking all over me.


How is you acting "safely and stealthily" any different than me acting safely and openly?
You offered "distracted" as an alternative to competitive. Unless you have another alternative, I'm concluding that neither suggests safety.
I also specifically said "that is not me" in that sentence. Do you have any answer that is not a blatantly mischaracterization?


If you knew that you were to maintain complete oversight and control of the stove at all times while using it, it would be cruel and indeed threatening for you to offer such a warning. Otherwise, you have a much clearer role in the traffic scenario.
Neither of us have complete oversight and control of the other cars in traffic. We rely (heavily) on them to be informed of the risks to themselves, and to use their own judgement to act based on accurate knowledge of risk.


While I'm perfectly relaxed here, you seemed to be equivocating your competitive/distracted nature behind the wheel and your complaint was admittedly lost on me out of the gate. It seemed you needed perspective on just how little a "window of opportunity" I'd need, not a kinematic criticism of our discussion. i.e. you almost, sort of addressed 1/3rd of my point.
I am neither competitive nor distracted. If I had oversight and control of the other cars, we would all simply stay in our own lanes and there would be no competition. But I'm not, so when someone else's competition crosses my path, I adapt.

FYI, this didn't happen when I lived on the west coast. Some cars would cut in front, but at about once/day or so I just didn't notice it. On the east coast, it's a continual onslaught if I don't respond. It seems as if other cars are so tempted by a first car that slips through that they can't help but follow. So I adapted.


As an example, why is the fact that I'd need to more than double your acceleration in order to get more than a whole car-length ahead before the window of opportunity closes relevant to anything we're discussing here?
You can read the thread yourself, but it came up in response to accusations of recklessness. I don't believe that it could be perceived as reckless to accelerate at a rate half as fast as neighboring vehicles. Do you?


Maybe 3 months of my life or so. You?
About half that
     
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May 16, 2014, 09:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@Uncle Skeleton

Scenario:

Clear highway. We're both in the right lane. You are traveling at a speed you feel comfortable with. I am behind you and have a higher speed I'm comfortable with.

As I try and overtake you on the left, do you speed up?
Me, personally? Not unless I happen to notice that you've already come in front and then slowed me down for some reason (it happens, and "fool me once" and all that). But consider that the "passing lane only" rule is somewhat old-fashioned. Like jay-walking, it is on the books, but you shouldn't get your feathers ruffled just because many (most) people routinely ignore it. If you find someone speeds up to match your preferred speed, you might be happier if you simply stay at your preferred speed, in the "passing" lane. After a minute of that, the slow poke might get bored again and slow back to his natural speed. Or not. It might just be your passing-lane obsession that is making you anxious. You can cure that all on your own, if that's the case.
     
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May 16, 2014, 09:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
I think what some people fail to realise is that it is possible to just enjoy driving. If you have a capable car, it is no fun being stuck behind someone who thinks of driving as merely a necessity, and is expressing this by driving slowly in the fast lane in their purely utilitarian Nissan Micra.

I will pass you in the slow lane. Yes, you might speed up to annoy me because you think I am "racing" (hint: I'm not. You are). Yes, you may pull up behind me at the next lights and think to yourself "Aha, Mr Racer Boy! See? You're getting nowhere faster than me!" (although contrary to popular belief, I will occasionally make it through the lights before they go red).

But you're missing the point. The point is I like driving, and you're being an obstacle to my enjoyment (literally). I don't pass you thinking to myself "Ha! Another one behind me!" I'm just trying to enjoy my drive.

If you do drive slowly in the fast lane and speed up when people try to overtake, then you're a far more aggressive driver than me.
So in summary, you "enjoy" driving, but other cars being on the road constitute obstacles to this enjoyment. It sounds like you don't enjoy what driving really is, only what you wish it was
     
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May 16, 2014, 10:10 AM
 
Holy shit you guys can tit-for-tat argue about literally nothing.
     
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May 16, 2014, 10:42 AM
 
No, they can't.
     
Laminar
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May 16, 2014, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
No,
How dare you be so absolute. The world should only be seen in shades of gray.

they
Oh, so you think you're speaking for everyone now? Who voted you Queen of the World?

can't.
You only think that way because you're a conservative black democratic liberal Jewish tea-party white terrorist sympathizer.
     
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May 16, 2014, 01:59 PM
 


-t
     
subego  (op)
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May 16, 2014, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Me, personally? Not unless I happen to notice that you've already come in front and then slowed me down for some reason (it happens, and "fool me once" and all that). But consider that the "passing lane only" rule is somewhat old-fashioned. Like jay-walking, it is on the books, but you shouldn't get your feathers ruffled just because many (most) people routinely ignore it. If you find someone speeds up to match your preferred speed, you might be happier if you simply stay at your preferred speed, in the "passing" lane. After a minute of that, the slow poke might get bored again and slow back to his natural speed. Or not. It might just be your passing-lane obsession that is making you anxious. You can cure that all on your own, if that's the case.
Really? Jay-walking is okay to you? Are you in some kind of hurry? Is this some sort of race for you?

I strongly disagree WRT driving in the passing lane. If you're driving at the speed of someone in the right lane, depending upon your spin, you're either setting the speed limit for everybody, or blocking traffic.


If somebody behind you flashes their brights, do you get into the other lane?
     
subego  (op)
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May 16, 2014, 02:20 PM
 
Here... I'll flip it around to be fair.

If I'm outside a populated area on an interstate, and have a radar detector, my preferred speed is 80-100 MPH. Am I a dick for wanting to travel at that speed?

Obviously, I don't think so, otherwise I wouldn't do it, but I have an open mind here.

However, if it's not a dick move, then to me, driving 60 in the passing lane is being a dick.
     
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May 16, 2014, 02:24 PM
 
If you are not traveling fast enough to be passing cars in the slow lane you are in the wrong lane. I will only not move from the fast lane under specific conditions:

-Traveling over 80 and passing other cars, if you tailgate me I simply won't care and will move over once it's convenient for me.
-If traffic is fairly thick, I am passing cars in the slow lane and have a nice buffer to not smash into someone who slams on their brakes then I'm staying put.

Lately it seems like everyone in the area is asking "freakin 4-way stops, How do they work?"
     
sek929
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May 16, 2014, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If I'm outside a populated area on an interstate, and have a radar detector, my preferred speed is 80-100 MPH. Am I a dick for wanting to travel at that speed?

However, if it's not a dick move, then to me, driving 60 in the passing lane is being a dick.
You are welcome to travel at whatever speed you want, but you would be a fool to think that the traffic you inevitably come upon whilst driving 90+ has to immediately accommodate you.

If you are doing 60 and passing someone going even slower that's fine, but you need to get your ass back in the slow lane as soon as you can. If you plonk your slow butt in the passing lane without any need for passing you are a total asshole.

Edit: It should be noted the vast majority of highways I travel on are two-lane highways, so it's either you pass people or you're in the slow lane. I f**king hate two lane highways since my preferred speed is ~70 in the middle lane(s). This means I'm often stuck traveling faster than I want to avoid going 55-60 with merging involved.
     
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May 16, 2014, 02:33 PM
 
It's sad that most people in IL don't even know that there is a "left lane law".

"Left Lane Law - While traveling on an interstate highway, a vehicle may not be driven in the left lane, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle. This prohibition does not apply to authorized emergency vehicles while engaged in official duties."
Illinois.gov - Illinois Government News Network (IGNN) - Search the News Results

Ignorance sucks.

-t
     
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May 16, 2014, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
You are welcome to travel at whatever speed you want, but you would be a fool to think that the traffic you inevitably come upon whilst driving 90+ has to immediately accommodate you.
Yeah that was basically going to be my answer too. You're not a dick for speeding, but you're a dick if you behave as if speeding is a right not a privilege, or if you treat people badly for obstructing you just by obeying the speed limit.
     
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May 16, 2014, 02:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If somebody behind you flashes their brights, do you get into the other lane?
I did not even know that was a thing
     
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May 16, 2014, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I did not even know that was a thing
Spend 30 minutes driving in Boston and you'll see a lot more than that.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Yeah that was basically going to be my answer too. You're not a dick for speeding, but you're a dick if you behave as if speeding is a right not a privilege, or if you treat people badly for obstructing you just by obeying the speed limit.
The thing is, obstruction through normal travel or willful obstruction? If I'm passing someone and I get up to 75 and a car comes up on me going much faster I'll move over at the first chance I get. If I lingered in the passing lane to purposely inconvenience the motorist behind me I'm being an asshole for no good reason.
     
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May 16, 2014, 03:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I did not even know that was a thing
pretty sure, even if my father hadn't taught me that, that it was mentioned in drivers ed.

Flashing bright lights behind you means move over, or look out.
Flashing bright lights ahead of you means look out, dangerous situation or speed trap.

If I'm in the left lane, passing others at 85, and someone comes zooming up behind me, tailgating, wanting to go 100, he's a jerk, but 9 out of 10 I move because I figure he's an unstable jerk, and also good cop-bait. Let him zoom on by.
     
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May 16, 2014, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
It's sad that most people in IL don't even know that there is a "left lane law".



Illinois.gov - Illinois Government News Network (IGNN) - Search the News Results

Ignorance sucks.

-t
The big issue is it's a blanket law, which is entirely impractical to apply everywhere in the state. In the city, the idea is simply untenable. Far too much congestion not to use all lanes at all times.
     
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May 16, 2014, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The big issue is it's a blanket law, which is entirely impractical to apply everywhere in the state. In the city, the idea is simply untenable. Far too much congestion not to use all lanes at all times.
If the roads are congested, I think that counts as "passing" someone in the opposite lane. I think the idea of the law is that you can't sit in the left lane if the right lane's empty. That has nothing to do with congestion.
     
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May 16, 2014, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
pretty sure, even if my father hadn't taught me that, that it was mentioned in drivers ed.

Flashing bright lights behind you means move over, or look out.
Flashing bright lights ahead of you means look out, dangerous situation or speed trap.

If I'm in the left lane, passing others at 85, and someone comes zooming up behind me, tailgating, wanting to go 100, he's a jerk, but 9 out of 10 I move because I figure he's an unstable jerk, and also good cop-bait. Let him zoom on by.
The key here is passing. If you're passing at 85, then as soon as the right lane clears, you'll get back into it.

In the same vein, if I want to go 100, once I pass you, I get back into the right lane.

The problem is if you stay in the left lane once the right is clear, or 10 times worse, never go fast enough to merge back in, or don't request a merge when your max speed is similar to those in the right lane.

I don't expect traffic to accommodate my desires except insofar I can put my right turn signal on, and thus make a request to merge into the right lane.
     
 
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