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Stacks usability
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xmacintosh
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Oct 25, 2007, 06:47 PM
 
Stacks seems like a step back in usability (my opinion). I make extensive use of the navigable folders in the dock in Tiger. I can’t, for instance, navigate into subfolders in stacks (see apple leopard features video at Apple.com); you can only select the top level folder to open it in the Finder.

Will I need an application to replace this funcionality? Butler is Leopard compatible?
     
brokenjago
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Oct 25, 2007, 09:06 PM
 
You can always just turn stacks off
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abbaZaba
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Oct 25, 2007, 09:47 PM
 
I will use Stacks and be incredibly happy it's included in the OS instead of having to use OverFlow
     
MartiNZ
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Oct 26, 2007, 05:53 AM
 
I was hopeful that the old functionality would still exist somehow. I think this is the worst change in a long time. Being able to browse folder trees made the dock truly useful. Being able to browse one level makes it pretty poor.

I'm all for them giving us the option to modify our behaviour, e.g. Spaces, but them forcing it like this is unsettling, and upsetting. I'm going to go hit up feedback, assuming a Leopard category is up already.
     
xmacintosh  (op)
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Oct 26, 2007, 05:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by brokenjago View Post
You can always just turn stacks off
How?
     
Gee4orce
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:11 AM
 
I never really saw how browsing a big long list of things (either from a dock menu, from Classic's Apple menu, or from Windows Start button for that matter) was really very useful. But, each to his own.

I suspect it will take about a day before some enterprising shareware developer creates a utility to restore this feature, so fear not.
     
jasonsRX7
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Oct 26, 2007, 07:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by brokenjago View Post
You can always just turn stacks off
Yes, please tell me how. I'm holding off installing Leopard until there is a way to disable stacks.
     
Charles Bouldin
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Oct 26, 2007, 09:53 AM
 
I'm hoping that FinderPop and/or Folderglance will continue to work with Leopard. Either of these (see versiontracker) is better than folders in the dock.
     
Kar98
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Oct 26, 2007, 10:17 AM
 
You could simply remove the icons from your dock and use the finder icon all the way to the left to browse your documents folders. I fail to see the problem.
     
jasonsRX7
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Oct 26, 2007, 10:23 AM
 
I still can't believe they took this:


And replaced it with this:


And this:
     
bishopazrael
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Oct 26, 2007, 10:30 AM
 
I really, really, REALLY hate to say it, but it feels like somehow .... MS snuck a mole into apple and got them to pull the okey-doke on Steve & co... "see? It'll spring off the dock like this!!!"

Ughhhh.... I mean... I like the dock, I like coverflow in the finder, but it makes me feel kinda dirty, and in all honesty, makes me feel like I should go back to 10.4.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 26, 2007, 10:34 AM
 
Please someone confirm it can be turned off.

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Cold Warrior
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Oct 26, 2007, 10:49 AM
 
Stacks also got some bad comments from MacWorld's Leopard review. I currently have my Applications folder in the Dock, and right-click it for a simple, straight, and clean pop-up listing. Stacks will make it unwieldy. I'll probably work around this by using Spotlight as an app launcher.
     
monkeybrain
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Oct 26, 2007, 12:15 PM
 
They should add more right click functions to the Finder icon. A right click on that smiley face could at least bring up an application list.

This move with stacks seems to be Apple's solution to an old problem on OS X: how to launch apps not already in your Dock. I hate to say it, but an Apple menu/Start menu is good for those few times you need to do that. By putting the Applications stack as a default Apple is hoping to stop this problem (well really just a problem for switchers). But looking at it, it's not so elegant - no way to drill down with folders, and all the application names are truncated just like in the Finder (I hate that, it's so ugly, I wish they would put the ellipsis at the end of the word, not the middle, or just leave the name off, a la Overflow).
     
peeb
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Oct 26, 2007, 12:43 PM
 
I agree - this is one of those eye-candy things that they use in the stores to say "Look - it has a start menu - and a really cool one too!" Most of us will turn this off, just like dock zooming.
     
MindFad
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Oct 26, 2007, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 View Post
Show...inder? WTF? You'd think a button that has a specific functionality would have a readable label.

And I still think the you should be able to enable the old list functionality in the Dock on a stack-by-stack basis.
     
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Oct 26, 2007, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
I agree - this is one of those eye-candy things that they use in the stores to say "Look - it has a start menu - and a really cool one too!" Most of us will turn this off, just like dock zooming.
Ahh, but can it be turned off?
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Geobunny
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Oct 26, 2007, 12:52 PM
 
I've thought for ages that if you want a stack of documents in the Dock, then that's what you grab and put into the dock; whatever your Finder selection is at the time, that becomes the stack. If you want a navigable folder like the functional Dock in OS X pre-Leopard, then drag the folder.

Actually, that makes me wonder if you can replace the /System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app with the one from 10.4 and get a useful Dock back again.
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Big Mac
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Oct 26, 2007, 01:13 PM
 
Nope, folders become stacks. That's the problem, unless someone knows of a way to turn it off.

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MrForgetable
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Oct 26, 2007, 01:15 PM
 
In its current state, Stacks sucks. You're left with what the computer wants to show. I want to be able to drag and drop into it. I guess I can make another enclosing folder but it just seems so unintuitive that way.
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Geobunny
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Oct 26, 2007, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by MrForgetable View Post
In its current state, Stacks sucks. You're left with what the computer wants to show. I want to be able to drag and drop into it. I guess I can make another enclosing folder but it just seems so unintuitive that way.
Not to mention the fact that it shows the wrong icon! If my Applications folder is in the Dock, I want to see the icon for the Applications folder sitting there, not the icon for whatever happens to appear first in the stack.
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SteveTech
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Oct 26, 2007, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by brokenjago View Post
You can always just turn stacks off
Thanks for that tidbit of info. Glad to hear stacks can be turned off... They can be turned off, right?
     
jasonsRX7
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Oct 26, 2007, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by SteveTech View Post
They can be turned off, right?
No thru any kind of visible option or setting.
     
SteveTech
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Oct 26, 2007, 01:56 PM
 
Then why the heck did that guy above, at the beginning of the thread, say you could turn them off. That's why I asked.

I'm not all that excited about stacks and was hoping there was a way to turn them off. Maybe a terminal command will pop up sometime soon to disable them.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 26, 2007, 02:01 PM
 
That's what I'm hoping too.

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MartiNZ
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Oct 26, 2007, 02:08 PM
 
I'm awake again, and on my mini running Tiger still. It's a bit of a relief seeing all those navigable folders again .

I'll check out those products mentioned above, but really wish Apple had just left it with a simple "OFF" option, just like Spaces - even in the same system pref pane would have been sensible - Spaces & Stacks eh!? Big departures from 6-year embedded behaviour really should be optional. Meantime, I guess I will get into making folders with bunches of links that I might want together; but I really do mourn the dock's best feature.

Cheers.
     
PaperNotes
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Oct 26, 2007, 02:12 PM
 
It's ugly. It's the one bad feature of Leopard. Sorry, not bad feature just badly done.
     
Hal Itosis
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Oct 26, 2007, 04:54 PM
 
I can't believe what I'm seeing (reading).

Anyone remember Now Software? (NowMenus, etc.)
And then PowerOn had ActionMenus, ActionDialog?

idunno. Where did folks like that go?
(I guess Apple didn't hire 'em. )

Getting Leopard in one hour ("6PM").
How long before a Stacks hack comes out?
-HI-
     
dmcnickle
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Oct 26, 2007, 05:54 PM
 
If you don't want to use Stacks then don't put folders on the dock and remove the 2 default stack folders that are put there by the OS Leopard install (documents and downloads).
     
Cold Warrior
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by dmcnickle View Post
If you don't want to use Stacks then don't put folders on the dock and remove the 2 default stack folders that are put there by the OS Leopard install (documents and downloads).
What we're lamenting is not just Stacks, but that Apple removed the previous functionality -- right-clicking a folder and having an order list pop up that we could navigate sub-folders in.
     
jasonsRX7
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by dmcnickle View Post
If you don't want to use Stacks then don't put folders on the dock and remove the 2 default stack folders that are put there by the OS Leopard install (documents and downloads).
How on earth could you completely misunderstand the entire point of the thread?
     
.Neo
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:08 PM
 
I never ever used that contextual menu feature to browse through my stuff, got Spotlight and the Finder for that. Personally I'm liking stacks, especially for my Downloads folder. All stacks are spring loaded now like folders in the Finder.
     
jasonsRX7
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by .Neo View Post
I never ever used that feature, got Spotlight and the Finder for that. Personally I'm liking stacks, especially for my Downloads folder. All stacks are spring loaded now like folders in the Finder.
I don't get why people are acting like Stacks is a new feature, and you haven't always been able to do this. How can you say "I never ever had a use for that feature" but in the same sentence say that you like using Stacks? They do the exact same thing except the new Stacks don't let you see inside a folder without opening a new Finder window, whereas the old stacks did.
     
.Neo
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 View Post
I don't get why people are acting like Stacks is a new feature, and you haven't always been able to do this. How can you say "I never ever had a use for that feature" but in the same sentence say that you like using Stacks? They do the exact same thing except Stacks doesn't let you see inside a folder without opening a new Finder window, whereas the old stacks did.
The Stacks actually notifiy me when a new file drops in by bouncing once and moving the newest file to the front most position. That's new and extremely convient in my opinion when it comes to my Downloads folder.

Next to that all the Stacks are spring-loaded like folders in the Finder when dragging something onto it. Also new.

Last but not least they create a clear overview of the folder in question, with big icons and the ability to change view and arrange options. This is also where the Document icon previews come in handy, not much use for those @ 16x16 pixels.

I have no use for being able to browse my entire Macintosh HD from inside the Dock. So Stacks suit me just fine.
( Last edited by .Neo; Oct 26, 2007 at 06:25 PM. )
     
fisherKing
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:14 PM
 
my documents stack icon is showing a blur of the folders in the docs folder...anyone else? ugly...
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jasonsRX7
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by .Neo View Post
The Stacks actually notifies me when a new file drops in by bouncing once and moving the newest file to the front most position. That's new and extremely convient in my opinion when it comes to my Downloads folder.

Next to that all the Stacks are spring-loaded like folders in the Finder when dragging something onto it. Also new.

Last but not least they create a very convient overview of the folder in question, with big icons and the ability to change view and arrange options.

I have no use for being able to browse my entire Macintosh HD from inside the Dock. So Stacks suits me just fine.
Spring loading is nice, and they could have added that to the old stacks without removing the subfolder functionality. No one is making you browse subfolders, but now you can't, even if you wanted to. I didn't use it for browsing my entire HD, I only used it for browsing Applications and my home folder.

It seems like Apple is designing these features for people who just throw all their crap in one directory and can't find anything without searching for it. I organize all my files and documents logically in descriptive folders, which means I have lots of folders within folders, and which means I don't need Spotlight to tell me where my files are.

At any point in the last several years, you could have created a Downloads folder, put it in your Dock, and had Safari default to save your files there.
     
Geobunny
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by .Neo View Post
Last but not least they create a clear overview of the folder in question, with big icons....
One has to assume you've not seen this pic from the Macworld Review then?

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peeb
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:24 PM
 
I think Apple is very much trying to move away from the idea of hierarchical folders. They are very problematic for some people.
     
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
I think Apple is very much trying to move away from the idea of hierarchical folders. They are very problematic for some people.
...and immensely useful for others (nae, most?). In fact, I couldn't operate nearly as efficiently without a hierarchical filing system.

Fair enough if they want to add new features to help those people for whom a hierarchy is problematic, but our beef is with them actively removing tried, tested and useful features.
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by xmacintosh View Post
Stacks seems like a step back in usability (my opinion). I make extensive use of the navigable folders in the dock in Tiger. I can’t, for instance, navigate into subfolders in stacks (see apple leopard features video at Apple.com); you can only select the top level folder to open it in the Finder.

Will I need an application to replace this funcionality? Butler is Leopard compatible?
I haven't tried stacks yet but the one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me is the way the stack curves. What was the reasoning for not put it straight up? It looks broken when it's crooked.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:31 PM
 
SJ thinks it's cooler that way.

The funny thing about Stacks is that if you assume one of their major functions is to serve as an application menu, they're very poor at it. Most people's applications folders are cluttered with all kinds of apps, thus yielding that stupid grid display stack list. I just hope that everyone angry about the demise of traditional Dock folders puts a couple emails into Apple each. Jobs has yielded to popular opinion in the past.

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Oct 26, 2007, 06:36 PM
 
The "fan" layout is completely useless on a busy window (e.g. Finder windows open, Safari browser, etc) -- making the text of each item hard to read. The transparency also gets in the way. It's "cool" in concept but really bad in execution.

However, I think if they did add QuickLook it might prove handy. Or better yet, maybe if they enabled the "skim" feature found in iPhoto and iMovie.
     
.Neo
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 View Post
Spring loading is nice, and they could have added that to the old stacks without removing the subfolder functionality.
I'm not claiming otherwise. You on the other hand were claiming Stacks didn't feature anything new.

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 View Post
No one is making you browse subfolders, but now you can't, even if you wanted to. I didn't use it for browsing my entire HD, I only used it for browsing Applications and my home folder.
I don't care, because I never used it in all those years. I won't suddenly start missing it in October 2007.

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 View Post
It seems like Apple is designing these features for people who just throw all their crap in one directory and can't find anything without searching for it. I organize all my files and documents logically in descriptive folders, which means I have lots of folders within folders, and which means I don't need Spotlight to tell me where my files are.
For me Spotlight isn't about finding stuff, it's about quickly obtaining access. If you truly are that organized you shouldn't run into any problems typing in the file/folder name you need in Spotlight and open it. Much faster. For real browsing there's the Finder and it's improved Sidebar.

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 View Post
At any point in the last several years, you could have created a Downloads folder, put it in your Dock, and had Safari default to save your files there.
Again, I'm not claiming otherwise. But it wouldn't have given me the same level of clear overview nor would I've been able to mange the folder from inside the Dock.
Like I told you before the Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger Dock contextual menu does not allow you to modify the folder content in any way. Stacks do without having to open the Finder. Again, convient. Especially when it comes to the Downloads folder: I can quickly Trash downloads without opening any new windows.

Originally Posted by Geobunny View Post
One has to assume you've not seen this pic from the Macworld Review then?
That's entirely up to the user. I won't allow my Downloads folder, for example, to become that messy. Nor any other folder for that matter.

A folder like that won't be much clearer in the old situation or within the Finder. He also neglected to sort the files and folders by Kind, which also helps a great deal...



------------------------------------

I can definitely see how some might miss the old way of handling folders, but for one I'm not.
     
Geobunny
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by .Neo View Post
A folder like that won't be much clearer in the old situation
By your own admission, you've never used it so I'll forgive you for not knowing, however, it is far far clearer the old way. The hierarchical menu was exactly that - a menu. An alphabetically ordered menu at that, and crucially your eye only had to scan in one direction to determine the contents.

With stacks, your eye has to look both horizontally and vertically until you find the item you're after. Once you do find it, if it's a folder, you can't then drill into that folder without ending up in a different view (Finder window), which disrupts your eye movement even further and is visually jarring.
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fisherKing
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:53 PM
 
my stacks folders are showing a blur of the icons within (ie custom folder icons, downloaded package icons);
anyone else seeing this? 1.5g powerbook..

also...any way to move more than one item from a stack folder at a time??
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.Neo
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Geobunny View Post
By your own admission, you've never used it so I'll forgive you for not knowing, however, it is far far clearer the old way. The hierarchical menu was exactly that - a menu. An alphabetically ordered menu at that, and crucially your eye only had to scan in one direction to determine the contents.

With stacks, your eye has to look both horizontally and vertically until you find the item you're after. Once you do find it, if it's a folder, you can't then drill into that folder without ending up in a different view (Finder window), which disrupts your eye movement even further and is visually jarring.
You could ask yourself if that's really they way you would want to order things on your Mac. Especially if you're that demanding.

Like I said, I definitely see how some miss this feature. I'm just not one of them.
     
jasonsRX7
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by .Neo View Post
For me Spotlight isn't about finding stuff, it's about quickly obtaining access. If you truly are that organized you shouldn't run into any problems typing in the file/folder name you need in Spotlight and open it. Much faster. For real browsing there's the Finder and it's improved Sidebar.
I organize everything inside a Projects folder, then by name of the project, and then an assets, files, quotes, and invoices folder.... So if there are 30 projects, I'll have 30 folders named assets, and many of the files in the subfolder have the same name. Spotlight sucks for that, but quickly navigating via dock folders didn't.

Stacks definitely work well for Application folders with lots of apps. Now, you can't even sort them into folders, or you won't be able to get to them with the Applications stack.

Edit: I don't find Spotlight particularly fast, either.
     
.Neo
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by fisherKing View Post
my stacks folders are showing a blur of the icons within (ie custom folder icons, downloaded package icons);
anyone else seeing this? 1.5g powerbook..
Nope the icons are crystal clear here. 2.8 GHz iMac.
     
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by .Neo View Post
You could ask yourself if that's really they way you would want to order things on your Mac. Especially if you're that demanding.
Yes thank you. It's worked for me for the last 15-or-so years (using the Apple menu since system 7.5). Besides, that's not the point; Apple shouldn't be telling me how to use my computer. The tail has started wagging the dog recently.
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.Neo
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Oct 26, 2007, 06:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 View Post
I organize everything inside a Projects folder, then by name of the project, and then an assets, files, quotes, and invoices folder.... So if there are 30 projects, I'll have 30 folders named assets, and many of the files in the subfolder have the same name. Spotlight sucks for that, but quickly navigating via dock folders didn't.
Maybe it's time you started working with tags? Just a suggestion.

Originally Posted by Geobunny View Post
Yes thank you. It's worked for me for the last 15-or-so years (using the Apple menu since system 7.5). Besides, that's not the point; Apple shouldn't be telling me how to use my computer. The tail has started wagging the dog recently.
Apple don't. You are however bound by the features they provide, but that has always been the case. If you want full freedom in that aspect there's Linux.

--------------------------

There's an application called Butler that gives you the old functionality through the Menu Bar instead of the Dock. Not entirely sure if it still works with Leopard, but it should.

Many Tricks � Butler
( Last edited by .Neo; Oct 26, 2007 at 07:06 PM. )
     
 
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