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The official Leopard thread (Page 11)
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Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Feb 12, 2007, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by kilechki View Post
Hence, I wouldn't be surprised to see only minor tweaks to the look of Aqua, except maybe some gradient colors, toolbars or such other details. But have it all much more animated...
I think they need to do something a bit more drastic.

As shitty as VISTA is it does LOOK flashy at a glance. It is more modern, animated, fluid and flashy than 10.4 easily.

If Apple sticks with the current 2000 Aqua look it would be very bad for any switchers.

As 10.5 stands now it is actually a pretty boring upgrade. Time machine is cool but is more for casual users.

Spaces can be accomplished with 3rd party add ons for ages.

Everything else is just nice touches but nothing that makes you want to lust over especially after this long wait.

Those secret features Steve mentioned has to be something flashy and revolutionary if they are convinced nothing like it is in Vista and they know it will get copied by everyone.

"Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
     
Gee4orce
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Feb 12, 2007, 04:49 PM
 
Unlike Microsoft's superficial face lift OS releases, Apple's new OS releases are really more about advances to the underlying APIs than about the whizz bang front end features.

Sure, Apple make a big song and dance about the user-facing stuff, because that's what sells - but what matters are the new APIs each OS opens up. Leopard is no different - it'll enable developers to deliver really exciting new apps that would have been uneconomical if not impossible before. That's what's exciting me about Leopard - it's the apps that I haven't seen yet - that wouldn't even have been possible without Leopard.

As for what we currently know about Leopard, I'm most excited about the enhancements to iChat: iChat theatre and desktop sharing will really come in useful for me.
     
besson3c
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Feb 12, 2007, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gee4orce View Post
Unlike Microsoft's superficial face lift OS releases, Apple's new OS releases are really more about advances to the underlying APIs than about the whizz bang front end features.

Sure, Apple make a big song and dance about the user-facing stuff, because that's what sells - but what matters are the new APIs each OS opens up. Leopard is no different - it'll enable developers to deliver really exciting new apps that would have been uneconomical if not impossible before. That's what's exciting me about Leopard - it's the apps that I haven't seen yet - that wouldn't even have been possible without Leopard.

As for what we currently know about Leopard, I'm most excited about the enhancements to iChat: iChat theatre and desktop sharing will really come in useful for me.

Man, you sound like an Apple marketing machine

I'm not a Microsoftie, but VIsta's changes were far more than cosmetic and superficial. I'm not sure what sorts of apps could not be possible with Leopard. Leopard might make things easier for developers, provide a deeper and richer API, but when it comes down to it a developer can do whatever they want with the OS they have today.

The exception might be with Core Animation. Core Animation's potential is to help communicate meaning, and it may have fantastic applications to this end, but I'm sure that at first many developers and users will be more enamored with the eye candy factor. It may take many years for us to get over this and to learn how to use these tools effectively.
     
Gee4orce
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Feb 12, 2007, 05:10 PM
 
That's why I said 'uneconomical' - you can code anything you like if you know C, but it'd take you a couple of years and a very talented team to come up with CoreAnimation, let alone CoreVideo, CoreAudio, CoreData, Spotlight, TimeMachine.....etc.

One of the main reasons developers keep giving for developing for the Mac is the power of the Cocoa frameworks.

As for Vista - all the non-superficial stuff got dropped, as far as I can tell. Leastways, Microsoft are doing a very poor job of communicating the tangible benefits (don't bother mentioning the 'enhanced' security !) - and none of the reviews I've read have mentioned anything.
     
kilechki
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Feb 12, 2007, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker View Post
If Apple sticks with the current 2000 Aqua look it would be very bad for any switchers. As 10.5 stands now it is actually a pretty boring upgrade.

Those secret features Steve mentioned has to be something flashy and revolutionary if they are convinced nothing like it is in Vista and they know it will get copied by everyone.
If Apple manages to get the best resolution independence implementation on the market and adds some nice, iphone-like behaviours to its actual UI, 10.5 UI could be much less boring and more attractive. In the actual timeframe, that is the best they can do - with less than 3 months (at most) before GM, I guess we won't see any revolution...
I've not seen so much of Vista, but it looks rather confusing to use on a regular basis with too much bells & whistles and not enough usability-oriented design. Apple has a card to play here, with a 200 Dpi animated interface. I would be satisfied with that, as long as they drop metal windows and rewrite the adress book...
     
besson3c
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Feb 12, 2007, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gee4orce View Post
That's why I said 'uneconomical' - you can code anything you like if you know C, but it'd take you a couple of years and a very talented team to come up with CoreAnimation, let alone CoreVideo, CoreAudio, CoreData, Spotlight, TimeMachine.....etc.

One of the main reasons developers keep giving for developing for the Mac is the power of the Cocoa frameworks.

As for Vista - all the non-superficial stuff got dropped, as far as I can tell. Leastways, Microsoft are doing a very poor job of communicating the tangible benefits (don't bother mentioning the 'enhanced' security !) - and none of the reviews I've read have mentioned anything.

Enhanced security is their killer feature. It's not a sexy feature to Joe user, but it is a very important one for Microsoft.
     
xe0
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Feb 13, 2007, 06:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by kilechki View Post
I've not seen so much of Vista, but it looks rather confusing to use
Well, Its still Windows

However, I've installed Vista on my MBP and I must admit, it is incredibly nice to interact with. The whole UI just feels more contemporary and snappy™.

Even though Im still navigating around Windows in its typical clumsy fashion, the gorgeous UI is quite a selling point for MS. And the vast majority of consumers and users don't care about the new API or DX10 technology. They will 'believe' that Vista is the bomb when they see it in action.

Tiger imo looks old already. I hope 10.5 kicks it up a notch.
     
G0Ducks
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Feb 16, 2007, 07:07 PM
 
100% Agree here. I want my cake and eat it too. And the frosting better be cream cheese this time!

R


Originally Posted by xe0 View Post
Well, Its still Windows

However, I've installed Vista on my MBP and I must admit, it is incredibly nice to interact with. The whole UI just feels more contemporary and snappy™.

Even though Im still navigating around Windows in its typical clumsy fashion, the gorgeous UI is quite a selling point for MS. And the vast majority of consumers and users don't care about the new API or DX10 technology. They will 'believe' that Vista is the bomb when they see it in action.

Tiger imo looks old already. I hope 10.5 kicks it up a notch.
     
confuzedwizard
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Feb 18, 2007, 08:59 AM
 
Vista slowed my machine by at least 30%.
Not sure where your 'snappy' came from.
     
sushiism
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Feb 18, 2007, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker View Post
As shitty as VISTA is it does LOOK flashy at a glance. It is more modern, animated, fluid and flashy than 10.4 easily.
Looks flashy in promo videos, but I used it extensively recently and everything still flickers in when windows open and it slows down to a crawl moving windows when you open about 20+ windows.
Like comparing the Flip3D (which for the record is just alt+tab but with less legible information design) starting transition to the expose one. F3D is just flickery and jerks while expose is silk

Brand new decent pc vs G4 powerbook btw
     
xe0
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Feb 19, 2007, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by confuzedwizard View Post
Vista slowed my machine by at least 30%.
Not sure where your 'snappy' came from.
I don't go by benchmarks. I prefer real world results. Vista's UI is far more responsive and snappy™ compared to Tiger. This is one area Apple really needs to spend some energy on. A responsive UI in 10.5.

Leopard needs to be XP/OS9 Snappy!
     
monkeybrain
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Feb 19, 2007, 10:11 AM
 
Maybe something is up with your MBP xeo, but I think Tiger is just as snappy as XP. In my experience XP is quite snappy on new machines, but bogs down so much it is like working in mud on older machines. I have faith Leopard will be even faster than Tiger, but I don't think that will be a big attraction for many people.
     
JLL
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Feb 19, 2007, 03:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by xe0 View Post
I don't go by benchmarks. I prefer real world results. Vista's UI is far more responsive and snappy™ compared to Tiger.
Not on my machine.
JLL

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besson3c
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Feb 19, 2007, 03:45 PM
 
Comon guys, let's get real...

XP is generally more responsive than OS X at single tasks, its display layer is quite primitive compared to OS X's. That doesn't mean that XP is better at managing resources or multi-tasking though (it probably isn't). This also doesn't mean that VIsta running Aero is more responsive than OS X.
     
Chuckit
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Feb 19, 2007, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
XP is generally more responsive than OS X at single tasks
I don't find that either lags for single-tasking…
Chuck
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besson3c
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Feb 19, 2007, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I don't find that either lags for single-tasking…
I meant fundamentally.. It is just generating simple bitmaps.
     
Chuckit
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Feb 19, 2007, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I meant fundamentally.. It is just generating simple bitmaps.
Well, yeah, but as long as both can generate their graphics (whatever model is used) fast enough to keep up with the refresh rate of your display, it's a bit deceptive to say one is more responsive than the other. In fact, they're both providing responses in exactly the same amount of time. At most, we can say that Windows XP is a bit kinder to your processors while providing equal responsiveness.
Chuck
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xe0
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Feb 19, 2007, 08:36 PM
 
lol. Nothing is wrong with my Mac.

Lets be realistic here. Both Windows and OSX have the strengths and weakness. Overall, Im sure I don't have to convince you guys that OSX is far superior to Windows in most areas. Ease of operation, stability, reliability and Multitasking all belong to OSX, by a long shot. A responsive and attractive UI however, belong to Vista.

If you think Tiger is as responsive as XP, try again. And to me personally, Im sorry but Vista's UI 'feels' Snappy.
     
sushiism
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Feb 19, 2007, 08:46 PM
 
"If you think Tiger is as responsive as XP, try again. And to me personally, Im sorry but Vista's UI 'feels' Snappy"

I found it very flickry even on high end machines, still get stuff jumping in it just happens after a fading in transition rather than just as the window appears like it did in xp.

OSX feels a hundred times smoother and solid when dragging windows around

oh and effects do not equal attractiveness, to me its amateurish gaudyness, like someone has just found the filters menu in photoshop
     
Gee4orce
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Feb 20, 2007, 07:00 AM
 
I had a quick play with Vista at the weekend. Unimpressed. More of the same, with sugar on top. A polished turd. Etc.

I notice that they STILL haven't come up with a way of indicating that an app is in the process of launching. I launched Media Centre, and was wondering if it had worked or not, until a few seconds later the screen went black. Then I found I couldn't get out again !

Oh, and Flip3D - what is the point of that ? I mean, really, it's useless. No better than Alt-Tab.
     
macintologist
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Feb 20, 2007, 07:36 AM
 
WHat I hate is how live resizing a window in Mac OS X is so dog slow. In Windows XP it is quite zippy. I hope Leopard fixes this.
     
Gee4orce
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Feb 20, 2007, 07:41 AM
 
Smooth as silk here eg. resizing this Omniweb window showing this forum as fast as I can move the mouse, and that includes laying out the content. Finder even smoother.

2.16GHz C2D + Intel GMA graphics.

Are you running Tiger, because there were vast improvements in this with 10.4 ?
     
xe0
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Feb 20, 2007, 07:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gee4orce View Post
I notice that they STILL haven't come up with a way of indicating that an app is in the process of launching. I launched Media Centre, and was wondering if it had worked or not, until a few seconds later the screen went black. Then I found I couldn't get out again !
Or how about the fact that if I click to run the device manger, the whole system locks up, and a message window appears asking if i really want to run the Device manger....

Or better yet.

The shutdown button within the start menu, does not shutdown the computer! Instead it puts the computer to sleep! To actually shutdown the computer I must click the little arrow beside the shutdown button in oder to access the sub-menu where I can finally reach the real shutdown button... and then hit the shutdown pop-up button....

Excellent engineering guys. WD
( Last edited by xe0; Feb 20, 2007 at 07:58 AM. )
     
glypht
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Feb 20, 2007, 07:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker View Post
If Apple sticks with the current 2000 Aqua look it would be very bad for any switchers. As 10.5 stands now it is actually a pretty boring upgrade.

Those secret features Steve mentioned has to be something flashy and revolutionary if they are convinced nothing like it is in Vista and they know it will get copied by everyone.
Well, it would be strange for Apple to go to all the trouble of developing Core Animation only for them to not make use of it in their own interface...
     
glypht
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Feb 20, 2007, 08:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by macintologist View Post
WHat I hate is how live resizing a window in Mac OS X is so dog slow. In Windows XP it is quite zippy. I hope Leopard fixes this.
Really? What are you running, 10.2?

Originally Posted by xe0 View Post
The shutdown button within the start menu, does not shutdown the computer!
I've always loved that about Windows, you have to click on start in order to stop the computer! Brilliant! Pretty much sums up the OS where intuitiveness is concerned...
     
cla
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Feb 20, 2007, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by monkeybrain View Post
Maybe something is up with your MBP xeo
Mine too. XP _feels_ snappier to me.

Comparing the task scheduling algorithm of OS X and XP, there's one fundamental difference that I don't think is just my imagination: user respect. XP prioritizes me higher than OS X. When I click the dock icon of an unresponsive process in OS X in order to force quit it, I sometimes have to wait forever. If I accidentally start an application and immediately right click its jumping dock icon in order to force quit: same thing.

Originally Posted by glypht
I've always loved that about Windows, you have to click on start in order to stop the computer! Brilliant! Pretty much sums up the OS where intuitiveness is concerned...
I agree, it's bad. But having a user click a fruit to shut down the computer isn't that much better. In fact, I'm not convinced it's better at all. Some people might argue (usually the same people that think their own logical reasoning is the key to perfect interaction design) that the Apple menu is the logical place to put it. The truth is: the Apple menu is the least illogical place to put it.

(As far as I'm concerned, the word "logical" should never be used in HCI discussions, in the same way that a motivation for a design decision should never contain the word "logical".)

Placing the shut down button on the device would be a familiar approach.
     
glypht
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Feb 20, 2007, 10:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by cla View Post
(As far as I'm concerned, the word "logical" should never be used in HCI discussions, in the same way that a motivation for a design decision should never contain the word "logical".)
Who said 'logical'? I said intuitive... not the same thing.

But you're right, shut down in the Apple menu isn't much better. The physical power button on Apple laptops can be used to shut down the computer - this is intuitive. Old Macs used to have the startup/shutdown button on the keyboard, which was also more intuitive than the apple menu.

To conclude: Hardware button > keyboard button > Apple menu > Start menu.
     
ghporter
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Feb 20, 2007, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by glypht View Post
I've always loved that about Windows, you have to click on start in order to stop the computer! Brilliant! Pretty much sums up the OS where intuitiveness is concerned...
The "Start" button lets you start doing things, including shutting down the computer. And if MS had called it a "Windows" button, everybody would have screamed "they ripped off the Mac OS!!!" It's just a convention, and as such it's just as valid as making the left hand tap "hot" and the right one "cold". There is nothing natural about either, but they are consistent so that makes them work.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
glypht
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Feb 20, 2007, 02:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
if MS had called it a "Windows" button, everybody would have screamed "they ripped off the Mac OS!!!"
As of Vista it is a Windows button...

*Clears throat, deep breath...*
     
Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Feb 20, 2007, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by glypht View Post
Well, it would be strange for Apple to go to all the trouble of developing Core Animation only for them to not make use of it in their own interface...
Yep. And I think the iPhones fluid UI is a good hint of what 10.5 will look like.

"Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
     
xe0
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Feb 20, 2007, 06:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by cla View Post
XP _feels_ snappier to me.
[..] XP prioritizes me higher than OS X.
This is right. OS9 also prioritized the user in a similar fashion. I hope 10.5 makes some advances in this direction.

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker View Post
Yep. And I think the iPhones fluid UI is a good hint of what 10.5 will look like.
Agreed
     
G0Ducks
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Feb 20, 2007, 11:04 PM
 
Seems like most of these last few pages of comments could go in the 10.5 wishlist thread... I want to hear more about the ACTUAL Leopard

R
     
JLL
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Feb 21, 2007, 04:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by glypht View Post
Well, it would be strange for Apple to go to all the trouble of developing Core Animation only for them to not make use of it in their own interface...
The Leopard seeds do use Core Animation here and there, but fortunately it's subtle.
JLL

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glypht
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Feb 21, 2007, 07:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by JLL View Post
The Leopard seeds do use Core Animation here and there, but fortunately it's subtle.
Where and where? I used Leopard the other day for about fifteen minutes but didn't notice that, I'll look harder if I get another chance...
     
lpkmckenna
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Feb 21, 2007, 03:51 PM
 
Check this out: Leopard Server info.



Some GUI hints there, I think.
     
sushiism
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Feb 21, 2007, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by macintologist View Post
WHat I hate is how live resizing a window in Mac OS X is so dog slow. In Windows XP it is quite zippy. I hope Leopard fixes this.
But it flickers enough to give someone a fit!
Bet it would be a fraction of the speed if windows drew things right like OS X does.
     
brokenjago
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Feb 21, 2007, 04:03 PM
 
I dunno, Vista, with it's 3D GUI layers, seems to draw just as quickly as XP.
Linkinus is king.
     
Chuckit
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Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Check this out: Leopard Server info.



Some GUI hints there, I think.
Or maybe Xray is the hint of what the new UI will look like, as long as we're just pulling random windows from random apps.…
Chuck
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Dark Helmet
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Feb 21, 2007, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Check this out: Leopard Server info.



Some GUI hints there, I think.
Freaky, it looks almost identical to some PC software I designed the GUI for back in September of last year.

Anywho, since it only has 1 button in the menu bar to close the window I think it must be more of a floating pallet. Looks nice though and the big menu bar at the top screams resolution independence to me.

"She's gone from suck to blow!"
     
Thinine
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Feb 21, 2007, 08:50 PM
 
It's a dashboard widget.
     
brokenjago
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Linkinus is king.
     
xe0
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Feb 22, 2007, 10:11 AM
 
Apart from the latest rumors of Leopard being released sometime in March; has anyone found any substantial news?
The whole scene is so tight lipped... no screen leeks, no reports — nothing
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Feb 22, 2007, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thinine View Post
It's a dashboard widget.
Looks good though. Hope it is a reflection of what's to come.
     
Chuckit
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Feb 22, 2007, 11:45 AM
 
Given how no other Dashboard widget looks a thing like any normal app (as far as I recall, anyway), it seems pretty likely that it's a reflection of what isn't to come.
Chuck
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silverboy31
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Feb 22, 2007, 02:51 PM
 
"Apart from the latest rumors of Leopard being released sometime in March; has anyone found any substantial news?
The whole scene is so tight lipped... no screen leeks, no reports — nothing"

Good Point i too find this very interesting, as an ADC member i find it a little strange that apple hasn't released a seed since the 17 of January.... they probaly have a lot more internal seeds going on but usually us developers get more seeds then this..Tiger seed program was a torrid pace if i remember correctly..maybe the secret features are holding the adc seeds back because if they do release these builds to developers i'm sure the mac sites will have screenshots aplenty...oh well waitiing patiently for more seeds.........
37!!!!
     
Eug
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Feb 23, 2007, 11:27 PM
 
Anyone estimate what the needs are for Time Machine?

There is a good deal here for a 500 GB external USB 2 hard drive (CAD$230/US$200), but I'm really of thinking of holding out for an external 750 GB hard drive for Time Machine, especially since 10.5 Leopard isn't out yet, and 750 GB drives are starting to drop in price. I'm currently using about 300 GB for my OS and data on this machine. Is 750 GB overkill?

I have a 400 GB external drive for backups already, but I'm gonna use that as I normally do, for direct backups. Time Machine isn't really a substitute for periodic direct backups of all the data, but the two methods complement each other nicely.
     
Andhee
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Feb 24, 2007, 10:31 AM
 
Who thinks Apple will release newer versions of the Macbooks after the release? That would be cool.
     
Eug
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Feb 24, 2007, 11:33 AM
 
Considering new MacBooks were released just in November, I'm not convinced we'll see new MacBooks soon.

However, I am convinced we'll see new iMacs soon, assuming the Leopard release is soon.
     
cgc
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Feb 24, 2007, 12:07 PM
 
Not a fan of black themes...I hope Apple at least has a "classic" (Tiger) theme for those who don't like the new stuff, but I doubt they will.
     
Simon
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New iMacs, MBPs, and MBs most likely won't arrive before Santa Rosa ships. IOW they won't be here before April.
     
 
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