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Say goodbye to Flash
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olePigeon
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Aug 6, 2009, 02:53 AM
 
http://9elements.com/io/projects/html5/canvas/

Needs Safari 4, Firefox 3.5, etc.

HTML 5 demo. The best part about it is that it runs full screen on my computer with very little CPU requirement, perfectly smooth. I never get anything like that in Flash, not even in something as simple as the demo they're doing.

I really hope this catches on as the new multimedia standard. Get rid of Flash, it sucks.
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brassplayersrock²
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Aug 6, 2009, 02:55 AM
 
WOW!!! thank you for posting... this looks amazing!
     
tooki
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Aug 6, 2009, 03:32 AM
 
The Canvas element was created by Apple, which clearly cannot be happy about how poorly Flash performs even on fast Macs, compared to Windows where it's very efficient.

Unfortunately, there's still no consensus on which video codecs to require support for in HTML5, which means we'll still be relying on Flash video if they don't figure it out.

Decoding the HTML 5 video codec debate - Ars Technica

I hope they figure it out, because I'd hate to still have to rely on plugins.
     
Simon
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Aug 6, 2009, 03:46 AM
 
No difference to Flash here. On my 2.4 GHz C2D with Safari 4 it generated 100% load even while I didn't move the mouse pointer. IOW one whole core was being used to animate a couple of colored dots and play simple music. In 2009. Yippee!
( Last edited by Simon; Aug 6, 2009 at 04:35 AM. )
     
CharlesS
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Aug 6, 2009, 03:59 AM
 
Well, the real test would be to try it on my iBook, which needless to say can't play Flash very well at all, so I downloaded Safari 4.0.2 for Tiger to upgrade it so I could give this a try. Unfortunately, it seems that the Tiger version of Safari 4.0.2 requires a symbol called _WebActionFormKey, which evidently isn't included in the WebKit framework that installs with the Tiger version of Safari 4.0.2, so now I have no Safari at all on that machine. Nice QA work there, Apple.

edit: apparently, the included frameworks do provides the symbols that Safari needs, but for some asinine reason the package installer is only apparently installing Safari.app and leaving the frameworks alone. Installing the frameworks manually with Pacifist solved it, but why the heck should I have to do that? Anyway, the site on the iBook wasn't fast by any stretch of the imagination, but it was sort of usable, which is more than I can say for Flash, so it is indeed an improvement.
( Last edited by CharlesS; Aug 6, 2009 at 04:07 AM. )

Ticking sound coming from a .pkg package? Don't let the .bom go off! Inspect it first with Pacifist. Macworld - five mice!
     
besson3c
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Aug 6, 2009, 04:03 AM
 
Much better performance here as well, which is not surprising. I'm very much looking forward to ditching Flash in my development, I hope that day comes soon!

In fact, I really don't know why people get excited about any Adobe web technologies really...
     
torsoboy
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Aug 6, 2009, 04:31 AM
 
So by "HTML5" you guys mean Javascript?

That page takes a full processor on my machine as well (2.2GHz).
     
besson3c
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Aug 6, 2009, 04:55 AM
 
Looking at processor utilization is not the way to measure performance here, frame rate and video dimensions are much better. Your CPU will be utilized as it is available on a Unix system, and this is all handled by the CPU AFAIK (it would be interesting if Javascript effects could one day be GPU accelerated). I have an old 1.25Ghz 15" Powerbook G4 I used to play that video, and it played it without a noticeable drop of frames for me full screen. I would be lucky to have video that didn't yak all over the place a third that size in Flash.
     
besson3c
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Aug 6, 2009, 04:59 AM
 
Heh, if you look at the comments in his source code for dealing with people with old browsers he "redirects the old bitches"
     
TETENAL
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Aug 6, 2009, 06:08 AM
 
Snow Stack - WebKit 3D CSS Visual Effects

Go there with a current WebKit nightly build (on Leopard and later, sorry CharlesS). That is a real "good bye, Flash" demo. Press space to zoom into the pictures. That one uses very little CPU since it's all done on the GPU.

If you don't have a recent WebKit, you can watch a video here:

satine.org - Snow Stack is Here
( Last edited by TETENAL; Aug 6, 2009 at 06:17 AM. )
     
tooki
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Aug 6, 2009, 07:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by torsoboy View Post
So by "HTML5" you guys mean Javascript?

That page takes a full processor on my machine as well (2.2GHz).
Uhhh... no...

HTML 5 introduces the Canvas element, which is what that site uses to render Flash-like animations to. JavaScript alone cannot do what that page does.
     
nonhuman
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Aug 6, 2009, 09:44 AM
 
Too bad we can't possibly replace Flash with the HTML 5 Canvas until we can stop supporting the still significant number of legacy browsers out there.
     
Dakar V
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Aug 6, 2009, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Too bad we can't possibly replace Flash with the HTML 5 Canvas until we can stop supporting the still significant number of legacy browsers out there.
Exactly.
     
starman
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Aug 6, 2009, 10:06 AM
 
Does Canvas handle audio/video I/O like Flash does for conversing on web sites?

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Chuckit
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Aug 6, 2009, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Does Canvas handle audio/video I/O like Flash does for conversing on web sites?
Nope. Still no solution for that outside of Flash/Java.
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Chuckit
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Aug 6, 2009, 11:26 AM
 
And about the high CPU usage: The framerate is apparently unbounded, so it will use as much CPU as it can. It works on my 2.5 GHz Core 2 Duo with heavy processor use, and it works on a 1.5 GHz PowerBook G4 with apparently about the same level of processor use.
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Simon
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Aug 6, 2009, 12:04 PM
 
But does it actually do more on the C2D?
     
mitchell_pgh
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Aug 6, 2009, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Needs Safari 4, Firefox 3.5, etc.
Unfortunately, that segment makes up ~15% of the web traffic to my site. Flash, as horrible as it is, goes back a long ways.

Maybe in 5-6 years.
     
besson3c
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Aug 6, 2009, 12:18 PM
 
Simon: probably improving frame rates beyond what the eye can detect. In general, CPU usage percentage numbers don't mean anything actionable to you as long as there is an appropriate need to be calling upon the CPU.
     
torsoboy
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Aug 6, 2009, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki View Post
Uhhh... no...

HTML 5 introduces the Canvas element, which is what that site uses to render Flash-like animations to. JavaScript alone cannot do what that page does.
The reason I thought that the page is primarily javascript is because in the source, it is pretty much empty except for a few javascript includes. So, the HTML has a new element that can be used, and the rest is javascript?
     
turtle777
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Aug 6, 2009, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki View Post
Decoding the HTML 5 video codec debate - Ars Technica

I hope they figure it out, because I'd hate to still have to rely on plugins.
Oh great, we'll only have to wait till 2025

My inner pessimist suspects that Microsoft will finally get around to implementing HTML 5 video at the same time that the H.264 patents expire, in roughly 2025.
-t
     
Eriamjh
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Aug 6, 2009, 12:32 PM
 
OS9 handled flash video better than OSX did for a while on the same hardware (until the really new codecs came out).

My MBP heats up like a MoFo when I access any flash sites. It would be nice if it didn't.

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SSharon
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Aug 6, 2009, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
And about the high CPU usage: The framerate is apparently unbounded, so it will use as much CPU as it can. It works on my 2.5 GHz Core 2 Duo with heavy processor use, and it works on a 1.5 GHz PowerBook G4 with apparently about the same level of processor use.
It would be nice if this wasn't the case while using a laptop on battery power. One of the reasons I block flash is because they kill my battery life because every page I visit is covered with useless animations. A system that scales better doesn't help me if it still uses all the power it can take.
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Aug 6, 2009, 01:32 PM
 
I can't wait for flash to die. One of the worst things that happened to the web.
     
Big Mac
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Aug 6, 2009, 01:43 PM
 
That's a premature goodbye to Flash there. I'd love to be rid of it, at least for video (which it shouldn't be used for), but only Mozilla seems open to accepting all the codecs currently proposed for inclusion in the <video> tag.

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TETENAL
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Aug 6, 2009, 01:54 PM
 
Mozilla is not open to accept h.264.

Only Chrome will support both Ogg Theora and h.264.
     
Big Mac
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Aug 6, 2009, 02:19 PM
 
Ah, you're right, I was reading the HTML 5 Video tag draft and thinking that it was from Mozilla. So there's no agreement at all.

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mduell
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Aug 6, 2009, 03:24 PM
 
Theora is a non-starter. The quality isn't there, the legal situation is murky, and it has a dumb name.

Apple will not support anything but MPEG4 (part 2 or 10). Mozilla will not support MPEG4.

Long live flash video.
     
besson3c
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Aug 6, 2009, 03:32 PM
 
mduell: it doesn't matter a whole lot so long as IE supports neither, or people choose not to upgrade
     
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Aug 6, 2009, 04:49 PM
 
This is an interesting development in the <video> tag implementation:

Google s Latest Acquisition Renews Hope for Open Video in HTML 5 - Webmonkey

A lot of conjecture, but there's also some direct quotes from Google that seems to indicate this codec company may actually provide an open video format everyone can support.
     
Big Mac
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Aug 6, 2009, 05:45 PM
 
Isn't Ogg open and that's specifically why Apple and others won't support it? Major players supposedly don't trust codecs that can't be properly licensed.

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moep
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Aug 6, 2009, 06:06 PM
 
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mduell
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Aug 6, 2009, 11:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
mduell: it doesn't matter a whole lot so long as IE supports neither, or people choose not to upgrade
Right, but there's not even a credible path forward to snark at MS for not following.

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Isn't Ogg open and that's specifically why Apple and others won't support it? Major players supposedly don't trust codecs that can't be properly licensed.
Ogg is a container. The video codec from the same group is Theora.
Theora can't compete with MPEG4p10 for quality, has no (good) hardware implementations (this is important to Apple from an ecosystem persepective), and the legal situation in significant jurisdictions is murky.
     
turtle777
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Aug 6, 2009, 11:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Ogg is a container. The video codec from the same group is Theora.
Theora can't compete with MPEG4p10 for quality, has no (good) hardware implementations (this is important to Apple from an ecosystem persepective), and the legal situation in significant jurisdictions is murky.
In other words: it's the geek's and open-source crowd's wet dream.

-t
     
Eug
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Aug 7, 2009, 12:56 AM
 
Make it work on the iPhone (and Cube and iBook) and I'm there.
     
Big Mac
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Aug 7, 2009, 02:15 AM
 
I think the first demos of this worked on the iPhone before anywhere else, Eug.

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Chuckit
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Aug 7, 2009, 03:10 AM
 
Calling Theora's legal situation "murky" is overstating things a bit. It takes a pretty paranoid mind to see any danger there. Unfortunately, as a really huge commercial software company, it's Apple's job to be paranoid about with whom it gets into bed.
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TETENAL
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Aug 7, 2009, 05:42 AM
 
I think the biggest issue for Apple is the lack of hardware decoders for Theora which means it can not be played on iPhone and iPod touch reasonably well.
     
Eug
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Aug 7, 2009, 06:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I think the first demos of this worked on the iPhone before anywhere else, Eug.
That link doesn't work on my iPhone.
     
wallinbl
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Aug 7, 2009, 07:07 AM
 
Not very fast on a dual CPU P4 3.2Ghz machine. Stutters and flickers on this machine.
     
Chuckit
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Aug 7, 2009, 11:13 AM
 
Are you using Safari 4 or Firefox?
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Chuckit
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Aug 7, 2009, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
I think the biggest issue for Apple is the lack of hardware decoders for Theora which means it can not be played on iPhone and iPod touch reasonably well.
Apple also says that even if there were hardware encoders, it's also worried that Theora might secretly be covered by some patent or another.
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wallinbl
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Aug 7, 2009, 11:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Are you using Safari 4 or Firefox?
Firefox 3.5.2 on Windows
     
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Aug 7, 2009, 01:52 PM
 
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Big Mac
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Aug 7, 2009, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Apple also says that even if there were hardware encoders, it's also worried that Theora might secretly be covered by some patent or another.
That's a lame excuse. Apple could still add support for it and then pull it if anyone makes a patent claim.

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Aug 7, 2009, 03:52 PM
 
I was using Safari 4 on a quad-core WinXP box and the audio just stopped and started, seemingly at random. The visuals looked great, though.
     
   
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