Hi boys,
since the big contract of Apple and MS, steve always used IE to demonstrate everything and on the website apple did this too. I just checked my iTools account and when I had logged in, there were several graphics showing iTunes in OS X but not in IE but in OmniWeb. Also, Apple has put OmniWeb available on iDisk, I wonder how much time it will need until they bundle OW with OS X, or maybe already with 10.1?

Steve

[ctt1wbw]

I would not be surprised at all to see the latest version of Omniweb, maybe OW 4.1, bundled with OS X 10.1 come September. Omniweb uses the Quartz engine and IE doesn't and I have heard that speed is greatly improved in 10.1 regarding Quartz. So Apple might include that browser to show off the new speed in 10.1...

[GORDYmac]

I think the support of OmniGroup is because of their experience with Cocoa, that's all. Apple needs more developers like OmniGroup, so why now showcase them?

As harsh as this sounds, Apple's still M$'s bitch. That's not changing.

[dogzilla]

Doesn't Apple have some agreement with MS to make IE the default browser for Macs? I thought this was part of the deal where MS bought a bunch of Apple stock. Has the timeframe on that deal run out?

Erm, you know that Apple still bundles the latest Netscape Communicator versions with 9.2.1? So this does not appear to be part of the deal.

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by SteveJobs:
<STRONG>Erm, you know that Apple still bundles the latest Netscape Communicator versions with 9.2.1? So this does not appear to be part of the deal.</STRONG>

Both browsers were bundled, but the deal (as I understood it) was that IE would be the *default* browser (as opposed to the *only* browser). MS' thinking (probably correct) was that the overwhelming majority of users would never change the default setting.

As an aside, does 9.2.1 install the latest netscape? (6.1 is it?) I had already installed Netscape when I did 9.2.1.

[Mr. Blur]

Yes, Netscape Communicator still ships with Mac OS 9.x......the deal was that IE would be the *default* browser, not the only browser. There is a difference.....

Ok, I got it. So there is a chance that OmniWeb will be bundled with OS X.

And no, as I just got to see Netscape 4.5 (!) was installed, not 4.7 or so, neither 6.

Steve

M$ needs Apple to install more than IE..

M$ = browser monopolist?

[Sine]

Didn't that contract with MS run out all ready? I know they singed in 97.. but I thought it would be done by now.

[CaseCom]

Originally posted by dogzilla:
<STRONG>As an aside, does 9.2.1 install the latest netscape? (6.1 is it?) I had already installed Netscape when I did 9.2.1.</STRONG>

Looks like they're not bundling Netscape 6 yet. The software bundle with the new Power Mac G4s (OS 9.2/9.2.1) lists Netscape Communicator (which would be 4.7x). The 9.1 CD came with Communicator 4.75.

[CaseCom]

Originally posted by Sine:
<STRONG>Didn't that contract with MS run out all ready? I know they singed in 97.. but I thought it would be done by now.</STRONG>

The part of the deal that covered Microsoft's development of Office for Mac was to run for five years (the deal was announced in August 1997).

The rest of it, including the browser deal, I'm not sure.

[davidmd]

Wouldn't it be great if Apple could really stand behind the OmniGroup and give them all the funding they wanted? It's a great browser, but the compatibility just isn't there. I mean, if it's one thing Mac OS X (or the Mac, period) doesn't have, it's ONE browser that is as fast, and can handle as many sites, as IE for Windows. As much as I love my Cube, I'm often frustrated by the many improperly rendered sites, which all work perfectly on IE for Windows. I constantly have to switch from Netscape 4.7 to 6.1 to OmniWeb to IE Mac just to view all my sites!!! For me, this is the only, and most glaring, (in my eyes) weakness on the Mac -- in short, it's achilles heel. To quotes one of my PC using friends, "if it's on the net, you have to be using a PC." Yeah, I know that it's a gross generalization, but how does Apple expect to convert people like that with attitudes like this? (And sadly, they're right in many cases!) Sorry, for ranting, but I would just feel so much better recommending the Mac if I knew that it could handle the web as well as windoze... :sigh:

davidmd

[Scrod]

Originally posted by davidmd:
<STRONG>Wouldn't it be great if Apple could really stand behind the OmniGroup and give them all the funding they wanted? It's a great browser, but the compatibility just isn't there. I mean, if it's one thing Mac OS X (or the Mac, period) doesn't have, it's ONE browser that is as fast, and can handle as many sites, as IE for Windows. As much as I love my Cube, I'm often frustrated by the many improperly rendered sites, which all work perfectly on IE for Windows. I constantly have to switch from Netscape 4.7 to 6.1 to OmniWeb to IE Mac just to view all my sites!!! For me, this is the only, and most glaring, (in my eyes) weakness on the Mac -- in short, it's achilles heel. To quotes one of my PC using friends, "if it's on the net, you have to be using a PC." Yeah, I know that it's a gross generalization, but how does Apple expect to convert people like that with attitudes like this? (And sadly, they're right in many cases!) Sorry, for ranting, but I would just feel so much better recommending the Mac if I knew that it could handle the web as well as windoze... :sigh:

davidmd</STRONG>

Hey, is it Apple's fault that web developers don't know how to use standards and test their web sites on only one browser? I think you would do better to complain to the web masters of the sites to get their sloppy act together. And if you really want compatibility with those sites designed for Windows, I don't see why IE for Mac wouldn't work; it does use the same rendering engine, after all.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Scrod:
<STRONG>Hey, is it Apple's fault that web developers don't know how to use standards and test their web sites on only one browser?</STRONG>

Well of course not, but OmniWeb doesn't even support all the standards properly

[Rickster]

Originally posted by davidmd:
<STRONG>Wouldn't it be great if Apple could really stand behind the OmniGroup and give them all the funding they wanted?</STRONG>

Yeah, that'd sure be nice.

[mr_sonicblue]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
<STRONG>Well of course not, but OmniWeb doesn't even support all the standards properly </STRONG>

And neither does IE.

[MacmanX]

It's funny that as I was reading this thread, I received this email from Omni Group's press mailing list. I think it is a very appropriate response to some of the concerns put forth here.

Also, I agree with blaming the web developers. I use OmniWeb to display all the sites I work on. But, I always double check with IE, Netscape, iCab, and others. I also do my best to follow standards so that my sites will work with any browser on any platform.

Anyway, here is the email:

Ken Case Lays Out OmniWeb Roadmap for 4.1 and OmniWeb 5

For Immediate Release

Seattle, Washington August 28, 2001

In a reply to an OmniWeb user on the OmniWeb mailing list (e-mail forum), Ken Case, Director of Engineering at The Omni Group, lays out the OmniWeb plan.

(See below for information on the OmniWeb mailing list.)

"Clearly, we need to do a better job of communicating with our users so that people understand just what to expect from each release. I guess here and now is a good place and time to improve that, so let's talk about our road map.

"The goals for OmniWeb 4.0 were to integrate well with Mac OS X, be stable, and perform reasonably well. Compatibility is certainly important to us, and we spent many months working on that for 4.0 while we were waiting to see when Mac OS X would actually ship, but we knew that full compatibility would take quite a long time and once Apple set a ship date for 10.0 we stopped working on compatibility (half-way through implementing CSS, unfortunately) and started working on integration, stability, and performance. Once we felt we'd met those goals, we shipped version 4.0--and I think the evidence indicates that we hit those goals: we won two Apple Design Awards for our Mac OS X integration; we delivered a browser that most people tell us crashes less than any other browser they've ever used; and, with a few exceptions (like rendering large tables) we perform better than most browsers. (We load most pages from scratch faster than other browsers--http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omniweb/ loads two seconds faster in OmniWeb than in IE--and we download large files faster than Opera last I checked. We do need to work on improving the experience for modem users, though--OmniWeb's great on a T1 or with a local proxy cache, but not as pleasant on a 56K modem without a local disk cache. But I digress...)

"The focus of OmniWeb 4.1 is compatibility. Specifically, our goals for 4.1 are to ship by the end of summer with complete Netscape 4.5 DOM compatibility (which should make OmniWeb compatible with nearly all web sites), better Java support (this requires 10.1, as 10.0's Java has some pretty critical bugs), Flash 5 support, and improved CSS. After shipping OmniWeb 4.0, we were able to start taking apart the application and replace some of the pieces with new technology which dramatically improve our compatibility, but destabilize things and require a bunch more testing. (For example, 4.1 now uses SpiderMonkey as its JavaScript engine, rather than using the old code that we licensed from Netscape in '97 or so. Also, we now load MacroMedia's Flash 5 plug-in, which gives us Flash 5 bug means we have to work around some integration issues with using Carbon plug-ins in our Cocoa application.) We expect that OmniWeb 4.1 will solve remaining compatibility issues with most web sites, though full support of CSS-2 and emerging DOM standards will have to wait for OmniWeb 5.0 since there wasn't time to implement those (and everything else) for a summer release and we really wanted to fix those basic compatibility issues as soon as possible.

"While performance improvements aren't our primary goal for 4.1, we do know that it's important, and I think there are some easy changes we can make to solve a few of the performance problems which people are encountering (like improving the responsiveness of navigating history, or making the application shut down more quickly when you quit) and we will be probably be doing some of those for 4.1. (And, of course, Apple will help us out there as well when they ship 10.1.)

"Meanwhile, the goal of our 4.0.x updates have been to make OmniWeb available in every language supported by Mac OS X, so we've been working with volunteers toward that end. Through this process, we've also found some bugs, and we migrated a few compatibility fixes from 4.1 to the 4.0 codebase (when they didn't rely on too much of 4.1's new architecture), but the primary goal of the 4.0.x releases has simply been to support additional languages--and I apologize that progress on other issues (like DOM support) seems slow as a result. Again, the localization effort has been mostly volunteer-driven, and is happening completely in parallel to our compatibility work on 4.1, so our progress on compatibility hasn't really gotten any slower, just less visible.

"Looking a bit further out (probably around 6-9 months), OmniWeb 5 will update the architecture for our rendering engine, enabling us to completely support CSS-2, DOM Level 2, and XML, and should address some performance problems with our current design (especially with respect to large tables). I know that web developers are chomping at the bit for us to add this support right now, but our first priority is to make existing commercial sites work so people don't have to switch to IE to read their web e-mail or bank online.

"So, that's the road map! I hope this helps everyone have a better understanding of where we are now, where we're headed, and how soon we expect to get there. If anyone has feedback on this plan, feel free to let us know!"

Cheers!
Edit: Why is this thread so w..i..d..e?

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: MacmanX ]

[KidRed]

I constantly have to switch from Netscape 4.7 to 6.1 to OmniWeb to IE Mac just to view all my sites!!! For me, this is the only, and most glaring, (in my eyes) weakness on the Mac -- in short, it's achilles heel. To quotes one of my PC using friends, "if it's on the net, you have to be using a PC."

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Obviously your friend is not a web designer. I am one of few web designers (in my field) that use macs while everyone else uses PCs. IE for Mac (as much as I hate to say it) is the most finicky standard compliant browser there is-PC-Mac-Period. I can't cound how many times my PC designer friends have had me view a design of theirs where for me in IE image slices didn't line correctly and they would say "it's because you're on a shitty Mac" and laugh, then I would take it into DreamWeaver notes the changes that it makes to view correctly in IE then show the the differences. Most have now come to respect the Mac and IE for being the most accurate browser.

PC and IE is very code forgiving, thats why crapping coded sites view correctly, cause the PC IE doesn't care about standards.

So yea, if you want to hide code errors commited by crappy skill-less designers then by all means PCs and IE is the best option for the web.

ROTFLMAO!!

[Cowdog]

Originally posted by davidmd:
<STRONG>As much as I love my Cube, I'm often frustrated by the many improperly rendered sites, which all work perfectly on IE for Windows.</STRONG>

Site list please... I have never really come across a site that wouldn't render right, even if it means I have to fire up IE unless it uses some propriety garbage plugin that is windows only.

I'd be curious to know what sites you're continuely frustrated by because they don't work right.

[webhead]

I'd be curious to know what sites you're continuely frustrated by because they don't work right.

You've probably seen the Janus Funds TV commercials. Try their site in OmniWeb: Janus Funds.

Here's a great site for web programmers. Don't go there in OmniWeb: A List Apart.

Of course the second example is addressed in the letter above.

I do love OmniWeb but it sounds like it's going to be DOA until version 5 comes out.

[jasong]

I have never really come across a site that wouldn't render right, even if it means I have to fire up IE unless it uses some propriety garbage plugin that is windows only.

Well, MS has solved this problem at long last NO MORE PLUGINS FOR IE WINDOWS!

-- Jason