[Stradlater]

I drove down to a dealership the other day, put down a deposit on a new car that's coming in, and signed the paper with the MSRP and the "selling price." Then I headed off. I looked at my copy of the contract paper and I noticed that they knocked quite a few thousand dollars off the car.

I wanted to be in and out quickly (I'm not a fan of lengthy haggling) and was fine with the a-bit-over-half-grand-off-MSRP that we agreed to. I double-checked my figures and online, and they wrote down a price that's several thousand below invoice. They'd lose a few thousand dollars if the deal were finalized, even when taking holdback into consideration.

I don't expect them to go through with the deal, and I wouldn't want to "steal," but this was a quick deal to begin with; they're making easy money even if I got them to knock another grand off what I thought we had agreed to.

Do I have any wiggle-room here? Grounds to argue for extended warranty or anything else? Or should I just roll with it and, if they bring it up, concede the original price, especially since I was getting a decent (not great, but decent) deal to begin with?

[vmarks]

You're being very considerate.

Look at the piece of paper you have. From what you've said, it's a signed contract.

They've pretty much got to honor it. They signed on it.

If they don't want to honor it, and you're being really generous, you can offer to renegotiate for whatever you'd like: the original price you thought you were agreeing to, a thousand less than that, whatever you wish.

You've got a signed contract, if they don't want to honor it, they have to explain why it's okay for them to not honor contracts but not okay for their customers. They might even want to explain that in court, I'm sure a judge and lawyer would be interested to know the answer.

[stevesnj]

My guess is that the car is a 2007 thats been in their inventory a while and need to get rid of it since the '08 cars should arrive very soon. Is this a 2007 car?

[Stradlater]

Yeah, it has both our signatures on it. I just feel like it's dick...although I've read Yelp reviews and the same dealership has low marks for servicing, so I'd probably take the vehicle elsewhere, anyhow.

It's not coming in for another couple weeks, so I guess I'll mull it over.

[Stradlater]

It's 2007, but popular enough that many dealerships are selling it for MSRP around the area. I don't think they'd want to absorb the cost.

[nonhuman]

If they signed it, then they're bound to it. You're under no legal obligation to give them a break. You could be a nice guy and help out the sales guy who sold you the car out (he's the one that would be getting screwed more than the dealership), but that's entirely up to you. Honestly, and I say this as someone whose family is in the car business, I'd take the reduced price.

[SVass]

Near the end of the model year, sometimes the dealer gets a rebate on the "invoice" price from the manufacturer or he gets a bonus for selling more than some number of cars. Therefore, he actually pays less than invoice. sam

[OwlBoy]

Take it, Dealerships screw over unsuspecting buyers everyday who don't know about how to get some cost knocked off a car.

-Owl

[Cold Warrior]

Invoice really doesn't mean invoice anymore. I doubt they made a mistake.

[Stradlater]

I'd be surprised if it weren't a mistake. Even with holdback taken into account, they'd be out a couple thousand, and Edmunds.com doesn't point to any dealer incentives right now.

Hmmm...

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by OwlBoy 

Take it, Dealerships screw over unsuspecting buyers everyday who don't know about how to get some cost knocked off a car.

-Owl

seriously. who feels "dick" when dealing with a car dealership?

[abe]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

You're being very considerate.

Look at the piece of paper you have. From what you've said, it's a signed contract.

They've pretty much got to honor it. They signed on it.

If they don't want to honor it, and you're being really generous, you can offer to renegotiate for whatever you'd like: the original price you thought you were agreeing to, a thousand less than that, whatever you wish.

You've got a signed contract, if they don't want to honor it, they have to explain why it's okay for them to not honor contracts but not okay for their customers. They might even want to explain that in court, I'm sure a judge and lawyer would be interested to know the answer.

Howdy, vmarks!

Ditto to what you said.

Most dealerships I ever worked at might only make a 'token' effort to renegotiate any deal they made a mistake on. It does happen from time to time but as you point out vmarks, this is a binding contract so they know they are playing a losing hand. Stradlater, I suggest you consider the deal the same way you would if you were playing "Monopoly" and this card came up.



If you feel guilty then add a little more to your tithes next month. It's obvious you try to live a moral and ethical life and this is a nice little reward from On High but as you already sense, this is also a test.

What the right thing to do is whatever allows you to sleep well tonight as well as on any given night 5 years from now.

One more thing to know, as Sam mentioned, dealers pay a certain amount from every car they sell during the year into a fund so that at the end of the model year (as Sam mentioned, at THIS time of year) they can sell below invoice and not go bankrupt. They will do alright, either way. If all customers were as thoughtful as you maybe dealers wouldn't feel the need to be so 'cut-throat.'

Originally Posted by OwlBoy

Take it, Dealerships screw over unsuspecting buyers everyday who don't know about how to get some cost knocked off a car.

-Owl

It's THIS kind of attitude that helps otherwise scrupulous individuals working at dealerships justify anything they do to make a living.

Some customers are nice and get good deals. And vice versa. Others are nasty and get screwed. And vice versa.

When I tried giving people good deals and they didn't recognize it and busted my balls, I went for the throat. And I'll just stop there.

[abe]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Invoice really doesn't mean invoice anymore. I doubt they made a mistake.

Invoice ALWAYS means something. It's just that that something changes a couple of times during the year without much notification to the customer.

[abe]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

seriously. who feels "dick" when dealing with a car dealership?

I'd LOVE to have a chance at you on a dealership lot.

[Love4WS]

Look at it this way: The moment you drive it off the lot you're going to lose a few thousand dollars anyway, so this just lessens that blow.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Stradlater 

I wanted to be in and out quickly (I'm not a fan of lengthy haggling) and was fine with the a-bit-over-half-grand-off-MSRP that we agreed to. I double-checked my figures and online, and they wrote down a price that's several thousand below invoice. They'd lose a few thousand dollars if the deal were finalized, even when taking holdback into consideration.

Dealers never pay invoice price. If it's a bad price, they'll catch it when you write the check to them.

Don't feel bad. They're not losing money on that price.

Edit: And if they do catch it and try to re-negotiate with you, get them to throw in some extras or something.

[Cold Warrior]

double post

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by abe 

Invoice ALWAYS means something. It's just that that something changes a couple of times during the year without much notification to the customer.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Dealers never pay invoice price. If it's a bad price, they'll catch it when you write the check to them.

abe - what goMac said.
Of course invoice means something -- it just doesn't mean what it used to.

[goMac]

Also, were you by chance negotiating the off the lot price?

Remember, there are certain taxes you have to pay when you purchase the car. If you were negotiating an off the lot price, they would have had to have lowered the sale price to make up for the taxes you'd have to pay.

[abe]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Also, were you by chance negotiating the off the lot price?

Remember, there are certain taxes you have to pay when you purchase the car. If you were negotiating an off the lot price, they would have had to have lowered the sale price to make up for the taxes you'd have to pay.

Here in the USA that's called the, "out the door" price. (The car price plus taxes, licences, freight and other fees.)

[ghporter]

If the car's been on the lot a while, they'll mark it down. If it is an '07, they'll mark it down. If it's both, you should see a pretty big markdown. I know this because I just bought a very desirable car (yesterday!) that was simply on the lot too long AND an '07. They're not losing much by moving a car that has been costing them inventory tax, detailing fees, bookkeeping costs, etc.

As for "they don't pay invoice," it's true that some manufacturers provide incentives that make the average car on a dealer's lot cost the dealer less than invoice, but not all of 'em do that, and those incentives are getting smaller and smaller. But when you consider how many cars a dealer sells with a $5,000 or more profit, losing a few bucks on one now and then washes out without much heartache.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by abe 

Here in the USA that's called the, "out the door" price. (The car price plus taxes, licences, freight and other fees.)

Really? I just bought a car this summer in Bellevue, WA, and the dealer and I both used the term "off the lot."

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

If the car's been on the lot a while, they'll mark it down. If it is an '07, they'll mark it down. If it's both, you should see a pretty big markdown. I know this because I just bought a very desirable car (yesterday!) that was simply on the lot too long AND an '07. They're not losing much by moving a car that has been costing them inventory tax, detailing fees, bookkeeping costs, etc.

As for "they don't pay invoice," it's true that some manufacturers provide incentives that make the average car on a dealer's lot cost the dealer less than invoice, but not all of 'em do that, and those incentives are getting smaller and smaller. But when you consider how many cars a dealer sells with a $5,000 or more profit, losing a few bucks on one now and then washes out without much heartache.

I agree. We were able to save almost $8,000 on our Xterra because it was the end of the 2005 model year. It was the first year of the current body style, and very disirable (especially here in the Springs) but we still got a great deal. What'd you get, Glenn?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I agree. We were able to save almost $8,000 on our Xterra because it was the end of the 2005 model year. It was the first year of the current body style, and very disirable (especially here in the Springs) but we still got a great deal. What'd you get, Glenn?

You say "we" as if you actually own the car.

I saved a lot of money, $5k+ even off of GM Employee pricing, when I bought a '98 Bonneville in late '98 after the '99 Bonnevilles had come out. I wish I never would have gotten rid of that car.

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Really? I just bought a car this summer in Bellevue, WA, and the dealer and I both used the term "off the lot."

Out the door, off the lot, up the ass... They all mean the same thing.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

You say "we" as if you actually own the car.

I saved a lot of money, $5k+ even off of GM Employee pricing, when I bought a '98 Bonneville in late '98 after the '99 Bonnevilles had come out. I wish I never would have gotten rid of that car.

If I owned the car, I would say "I". I refer to we because we, my family, saved that much.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

If I owned the car, I would say "I". I refer to we because we, my family, saved that much.

So, you mean "my parents" right? Or are you a part owner as well?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I agree. We were able to save almost $8,000 on our Xterra because it was the end of the 2005 model year. It was the first year of the current body style, and very disirable (especially here in the Springs) but we still got a great deal. What'd you get, Glenn?

We got my wife a Honda S2000-which she'd been really REALLY wanting for a couple of years. I'm not sure about other states, but inventory taxes in Texas can hurt a business badly, so this car was starting to cost them some serious money. They lopped a huge amount off the price, and we're thrilled with the car.

[abe]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Really? I just bought a car this summer in Bellevue, WA, and the dealer and I both used the term "off the lot."

Some dealerships try to be nappy headed attention hoes by changing the terminology. Hmph!

[el chupacabra]

Just think of all the warranties they trick people into buying that don't cover anything. In my family there are 4 toyotas all with problems. I thought bumper to bumper meant bumper-bumper but in fact once you read the fine print you see it's bumper to bumper except this, this, this, this, this this and this, etc.
MY fairly new Toyota has oil gelling(a ruined engine) since the day I got it, a broken electric window, electric locks, AC, CD player, back light, trunk latch, gas cap and a few other things. I found out my bumper to bumper warranty didn't cover any of that; except oil gelling but Toyota just says burning oil is 'normal'.

IOW take the money from the dealership if you can, they'll just scam someone into buying a warranty to cover it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Just think of all the warranties they trick people into buying that don't cover anything. In my family there are 4 toyotas all with problems. I thought bumper to bumper meant bumper-bumper but in fact once you read the fine print you see it's bumper to bumper except this, this, this, this, this this and this, etc.
MY fairly new Toyota has oil gelling(a ruined engine) since the day I got it, a broken electric window, electric locks, AC, CD player, back light, trunk latch, gas cap and a few other things. I found out my bumper to bumper warranty didn't cover any of that; except oil gelling but Toyota just says burning oil is 'normal'.

IOW take the money from the dealership if you can, they'll just scam someone into buying a warranty to cover it.

Wait, I thought Toyotas were end all be all of quality.. or was that Honda?

[moonmonkey]

It's not the dealership you are screwing, it's the sales person you dealt with.

It's him/her that's going to lose the next two months commission or job because you want to take advantage of his mistake, you got a good deal on the car at the agreed price, be happy!

I would let them know.

[OreoCookie]

If you have a signed contract, then you have the right to demand what is in the contract, unless it's an obvious mistake (for example forgetting or adding a 0, selling a car for $1,000 instead of $10,000).

[wallinbl]

The contract is only valid if it was signed by a manager. The signature of the sales rep means exactly nothing.

If they don't sell their allotment of 2007 cars, then they get fewer of the 2008 models. If they're behind, they'll discount a ton just to make sure they get enough.

Incentives are not always customer incentives - the dealers frequently get them as well.

Does your contract specify trim level, packages, options, etc? Dealers usually want to negotiate over a specific car (VIN # in contract?). Maybe it's not what you think it is.

Are you financing with them? If you are, they can get a lot for doing this. 7% interest on $30K over 5 years will make up for a few thousand on sale price.

[Kevin]

Do whatever your conscience tells you that is right.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

The contract is only valid if it was signed by a manager. The signature of the sales rep means exactly nothing.

The contract says it is "final" and "non-negotiable" once signed by any employee of their corp.

Incentives are not always customer incentives - the dealers frequently get them as well.

I understand this, and Edmunds usually lists both. No incentives on either end right now.

Does your contract specify trim level, packages, options, etc? Dealers usually want to negotiate over a specific car (VIN # in contract?). Maybe it's not what you think it is.

Contract specifies the VIN. Specifies the package, the color, etc.

Are you financing with them? If you are, they can get a lot for doing this. 7% interest on $30K over 5 years will make up for a few thousand on sale price.

I'm not financing through them.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Stradlater 

The contract says it is "final" and "non-negotiable" once signed by any employee of their corp.

Well then technically you're enjoined from making them a higher offer. You couldn't pay them more even if you wanted to.

[abe]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

It's not the dealership you are screwing, it's the sales person you dealt with.

It's him/her that's going to loose the next two months commission or job because you want to take advantage of his mistake, you got a good deal on the car at the agreed price, be happy!

I would let them know.

I don't think things work that way. As a bargaining ploy a salesman might tell a customer that selling a car too cheaply will result in the amount of the 'loss' being taken from their future pay checks but I've never heard of it actually being done.

There's USUALLY a dispassionate sales manager sitting at a desk in the sales office who looks at the paperwork of each deal as it's being negotiated and if he doesn't want the car to be sold, it won't be sold.

I've told people that the dealership would only make a $100 on a car and I'd only make a $25 mini commission on a deal when it was true. And believe it or not sometimes people found that so difficult to believe that they'd back out of the deal thinking I was a liar. That is when a salesman pulls his hair out and vows to be heartless.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Wait, I thought Toyotas were end all be all of quality.. or was that Honda?

they were suppose to be, they were suppose to be... thats why I got one. I guess its honda now as my honda is running great. Toyot's are just another mass produced american like car now.

[Cold Warrior]

I don't believe that. Consumer Reports routinely places most Toyota models very high in reliability. From personal experience, they're highly reliable. Maybe you (el) are buying them used from an individual; used without a pre-purchase mechanical inspection; or are not taking care of them.

[BadKosh]

Naaa, Cost of doing business. Get the last years lemon off the lot. Maybe a rebuilt?

This just might be a learning process for the newbe sales guy.

[nonhuman]

Toyotas have been very very reliable in the past. From what I've heard, though, they're losing their edge when it comes to quality. Hyundai is actually one of the leaders right now. If you just dismissed them out of hand before, I highly recommend you check them out. I test drove a Sonata a little while ago expecting it to basically be a Fort Taurus. I was extremely impressed. They're very nice cars, feel good to drive, nice interior, good options, great warranty, great price.

[abe]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Naaa, Cost of doing business. Get the last years lemon off the lot. Maybe a rebuilt?

This just might be a learning process for the newbe sales guy.

People have funny notions about new car dealers.

However, used car sales are altogether different than new car sales, even though the salesman might do both and the dealership might have one lot right next to the other.

Used cars are wild!

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

So, you mean "my parents" right? Or are you a part owner as well?

What's with picking on kids now RR? Got out on the wrong foot this morning?

FYI, there's nothing wrong with saying "we" and referring to the family-unit one is part of. I do it and my partner does it regardless of who is owning or paid for what. And I sure as hell did it when I was a kid even if it was my parents.

Unless you are his dad and take offence I suggest you take your stick and poke it somewhere else.

[BadKosh]

If the car had serious problems while being driven by a possible buyer, it just might have a new engine/tranny that did not come with the car originally. Possibly a repaint? In 1982, Stohlman VW in Northern VA repainted a new 1982 Jetta from White to Black, because they couldn't get a black one. Waited til it was raining to call me to pick it up. Found out 6 years later after a small fender bender when the repair shop ran the VIN!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

they were suppose to be, they were suppose to be... thats why I got one. I guess its honda now as my honda is running great. Toyot's are just another mass produced american like car now.

They all are. People usually take better care of what they payed MORE for.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

What's with picking on kids now RR? Got out on the wrong foot this morning?

He wasn't picking on kids. He was just pointing out pretension.

FYI, there's nothing wrong with saying "we" and referring to the family-unit one is part of.

Depends on what you are referring to. If as a family you go to the park, saying "we went to the park" is ok. If mom and dad get it on in the bed two bedrooms from you, you don't say "We had sex last night"

I do it and my partner does it regardless of who is owning or paid for what.

Well if that is the agreement you and your partner came to...

And I sure as hell did it when I was a kid even if it was my parents.

Ok.. I did lots of things as a kid. That doesn't make it right..

Unless you are his dad and take offence I suggest you take your stick and poke it somewhere else.

~You know the man you hate? You look like him everyday!~
Everyone sing!

Unless you are RailRoaders dad I suggest you take your rant elsewhere!11

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

If I owned the car, I would say "I". I refer to we because we, my family, saved that much.

How much money did you put in to save out of your own pocket? If it's a considerable amount I'll agree. If not... your parents bought it. You just sat and watched. When I read your first post I got the impression that you and your mate bought it and got a good deal. You didn't mention anything about your family buying it. Thats a bit pretentious don't you think?

I mean under your "rules" of ownership, I've owned a few Audis, Porches, and BMWs too. But in reality, I didn't own them at all. My dad did. I was there when he bought them though. That doesn't make me part owner. Even when I WAS driving around my Dad's Audi when I was 18, when people asked if it was mine, I'd say "No it's dad's"

But then I was just being honest. I would never say It's "Our car" Because that implies I have partial ownership of it. And I didn't, and either do you.

If your the person paying for the car can't make the payments, they aren't going to go after you.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Naaa, Cost of doing business. Get the last years lemon off the lot. Maybe a rebuilt?

This just might be a learning process for the newbe sales guy.

Is this directed at me?

Not a lemon. Not on the lot. Not rebuilt.

[BadKosh]

How would you really know

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

How would you really know

If they sold him a rebuilt lemon with the odometer rolled back and told him it was new, he could sue them and win. Not to mention the fact that the publicity from such a thing would put them out of business.