[baliset]

*Crunch* That's the sound of all my Mac OS paradigms crashing around me.

I consider myself a MacOS "expert". I've supported people since 7.0 and know the interface intimately. It's my living. So why do I feel so stupid when I sit in front of OS-X? It's because there's something fundamentally jarring about sitting in front of a Mac and not seeing so many of the familiar handles, like the Apple menu, or the hierarchy of the System Folder.

I'm prepared to give this a chance, but I'll admit my initial impressions are very, very mixed.

This is what I need: Has anyone written an article stepping us through which bits of OS-X map across conceptually to OS-9? For example, how will concepts like "Control panels", or "Extensions" work? The layered nature of the "Desktop" with the "Finder" as a seperate application seems needlessly un-Mac-like. The absence of the Apple menu is a big, big mistake. How will OS-X cope? (and don't give me this "use the Dock" crap. I'm getting rid of it as soon as I find an alternative). Can I get hierarchical access to the hard drive in one mouse-motion like I could before? Is there an "Extensions manager"? What about a control strip? Essentially I need a walkthough of all the OS-9 features and how they map across to their counterparts in OS-X. I also need an idea if I'm being needlessly harsh on Apple because these features will be included in the Final release of the product.

------------------
Nathan Zamprogno,
Manager, Baliset Solutions
[email protected]

[monospace]

Dude, where have you been? Plenty of articles like that all over the web. Have you tried the usual suspects? MacNN, MacFixit, MacAddict, ResExcellence, MacWeek, Macintouch -- there are PLENTY of lengthy articles to be found about how X compares to 9.

But take my word for it, they won't do you any good. X is not 9. It would appear that you have already noticed that. Instead of trying to compare the two, you'd be better off forgetting all your past knowledge about System 7 and up, and consider this something new and different. Start with a Unix book! As you so aptly called your post, X *is* a paradigm shift, and I don't mean to disparage you, but in order to work it for what it's worth, you better get used to living without the Apple menu.

I promise you, once you set aside your past expertise for a moment, and consider this an opportunity to LEARN, you'll grow to love it. Even the Dock.

[monospace]

OK, so let me be a little more helpfull and POINT you to an article that should get you started shifting your paradigms

<http://macweek.zdnet.com/2000/10/01/1005rsdirectories.html>

Cheers!

[mr_sonicblue]

Time to be childish:

Dock rules, Apple menu drools

OK, Time over.

Seriously...I love the Dock and hate the apple menu (mine in OS 9 was empty except for control panels and other config stuff). The only thing worthwhile I could find in OS 9 was AppMenu that put another "Apple Menu" on the right side of the screen that could remain uncluttered by config items that just got in my way too much. It might just be me, but I don't need to change my screen res every 4 milleseconds, so I don't need 2 click access to it. I'm VERY happy with the Dock being completely seperated from "System Preferences" and "Desktop & Dock Preferences".

But that's just my 2 cents since I seem to be the only user out there that like the Dock.

If you're happy with your dock, and ya know it, clap you hands... *clap-clap*

(Sorry, I slipped)

------------------
-Eric Schneider (SonicBlue)

[kennedy]

clap-clap You're not the only user out there that likes the Dock...

I supported Mac users back in 85. I showed Mac users how to customize
their Apple menu. And sold many on the beauty of the Finder. But...
since then I've also used numerous other window system platforms, each
quite heavily. In all of those, from early Mac to now I've always ended
up configuring some really useful methods of navigation and switching,
as I tend to have open 20-30 windows at all times.

In each case, the provided mechanism is lacking in some way, but I could customize it and how I use it until I got very productive with it. The Dock represents the best mechanism to date, IMO. And more importantly, with a few tweaks as I've mentioned in other posts, it could be the perfect mechanism. If that code was open source, its so close I'd have coded it already.

In contrast, the Apple menu is fairly weak and fairly ugly... not even in the same class. Just make sure you think of the Dock as a graphical Apple menu... don't think of it as a Windoze start bar (that'll definitely get you using it wrong).

Many of the other changes Apple has made regarding the Desktop, Finder, etc., are excellent ways to fix things that have conceptually bugged me for almost two decades. I've used lots of windows systems, and this new
one has a much better conceptual model than *any* before it.

Of course, based on your post, I am just spitting in the wind here... you've already said you have no interest in opening your mind to these ideas... you'll be ripping that dock out of there ASAP... but then since you've already decided to throw out some of the new paradigms, why are you even asking for explanation of them?

Oh well, HTH at least a little.

[jblakeh1]

I really, really, can't understand this love of the Apple menu.

In regards to a hiearchal menu, opening a window in browser view is really the same thing if you think about it, only not as limited. Windows don't 'time out' and disappear, and browser windows aren't limited to only so many hiearchies.

Add the new command key functionality to the browser view, and voila! Command-4: your hiearchal window is Apps! Command-1: your hiearchal window is your hard drive! What could be simpler?

One of the goals of Mac OS X was to 'clean up' the whole Mac experience:

The desktop in 9 is a catch-all, meaning it gets cluttered, and only a few items are really required to be there- disks, and the trash. Boot up, and it's, 'hello, clutter!'

The Apple menu is the same- it once had a purpose, but, like the desktop, the Apple menu has become a catch all. A place for AOL to dump icons.

I really don't wish to offend anyone, but I get the impression a lot of people just plop the X disk in and start complaining. Work in X for any length of time, and it's rough for maybe two hours, maybe two days, but you adapt... and once you adapt, 9 feels like a game boy!

[baliset]

OK, I'm not closed minded, but I see very little that's useful about the dock.
1. The Apple menu allowed me hierarchical, instant access to any item on my hard drive in one single, sinuous mouse movement. It allowed me to conceptually group my hierarchical access by creating folders of aliases or items (Applications, Work docs, Personal docs, Control panels). It took up no room at all and never, ever got in the way of open applications on my desktop (being tucked up in the corner). Even with "auto show/hide" active on the dock, it's still in my way.

2. The dock shows a blue smiley face labelled "Desktop". I click it. What opens? The Finder. Confused? Having an icon there at all for the Desktop/Finder/ Classic environment app. is like having an icon in the Application menu under OS9 for every extension you've got loaded. These aren't applications, the ARE the system.

3. Every window in the "Finder" is labelled "Finder". As if we didn't know. Why not move the name of the directory (better still, the path) into the window title?

4. The "Network" icon under "Computer" doesn't show me the network! The only way I have found so far to get anything vaguely like the Chooser/ Network neighbourhood scenario is to choose a menu command like "Connect to server" from the "Go" menu.

5. The greatest asset Apple has is the body of familiarity built into millions of Mac users. Arbitrarily juggling the names of the "Desktop" (which ought to be a place, not an application) and the "Finder" (which ought to be presented AS the system, not a poor "File Manager" tacked on top of the system) is poor planning. Every Mac user "knows" that the "Desktop" is at the top of the File tree (heck, even Windows presents that!) The hard drive icon belongs on the desktop, as does the Trash. Finding the desktop at "/Users/nathan/library/desktop" is hellishly like the complexity that I thought Apple were trying to avoid! All Mac users "know" that the top right hand corner of the screen will give me a list of open applications to switch between them. All Mac users "know" the clock belongs in the Menu bar. All Mac users "know" that flashing arrows in the top left corner denote network activity.

6. This release seems to veer in the direction of forced oversimplification. The OS9 desktop is cluttered? I CHOOSE the clutter and work best that way. Do I have a choice here? Only by creating aliases all over the place. I prefer to have an Apple menu for my easy access to files. Do I have a choice here? No, the "Dock paradigm" is all-conquering. I have nothing against it. If you like it, more power to you. What I'm railing against is the lack of CHOICE.

7. Apple could have easily enhanced the "guts" of the operating system without sacrificing the familiarity of use for it's users. It has introduced quite arbitrary changes with no sound reason (I quote the Application menu as my best example. Why put it on the left when the right would have automatically been more familiar?)

------------------
Nathan Zamprogno,
Manager, Baliset Solutions
[email protected]

Bravo!

Its all about options!
And in that respect - until there are shareware alternatives - OSX has taken more than it has given.
All the technologial prowess is most welcome, but not at the cost of convenience and flexibility.
The dock is a glitzy storage area, which may grow up into a useful feature, but it is not good as an organizing tool, the way the Apple Menu certainly is.

i don't hear anyone who wants the Apple menu saying that they want to get rid of the dock (although it sure can use some refinement) but is seems as though the dock afficionados want us to give up the AM.

Call it what you want, a hierarchical storage and access system still is the most flexible and efficient means of organizing files and folders.

I have tried ClassicMenu, but it still is rather rough around the edges. I sure hope so. And as soon as GoMac comes out in carbon/cocoa, I'll dump that moving target dock!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by baliset:
(I quote the Application menu as my best example. Why put it on the left when the right would have automatically been more familiar?)

What? Put the menu which contains "Quit," "Preferences," and "About" on the right-hand end of the menu bar?

Are you talking about the Application Switcher? That is not a menu anymore (didn't really make too much sense, anyway - unless you happened to know about it). It is entirely replaced by the Dock.

Have you used OS X beta at all?

-chris.

[Lapeyre]

"I really, really, can't understand this love of the Apple menu. "

- So I will try to explain you why...

"In regards to a hiearchal menu, opening a window in browser view is really the same thing if you think about it, only not as limited. Windows don't 'time out' and disappear, and browser windows aren't limited to only so many hiearchies."

- You are making a big mistake : the AppleMenu is just excellent for instant access. It has never been created to make a walk between files and folders but to open what you are using the most or the most recent items you used, for example.

"Add the new command key functionality to the browser view, and voila! Command-4: your hiearchal window is Apps! Command-1: your hiearchal window is your hard drive! What could be simpler?"

- The Apple Menu, in many situations ! Why ? Because these shorcuts won't open directly any file or application. They will just display the content of some specific folders and then you still will have to look for some application or document to open... So you will have to open some new folders before... For roaming, the OS X solution is great and could even be better if Apple was adding a 3D view in the Finder window. (They could put GL trees everywhere and option to play Quake on the paths )
Come on ! The Dock could be compared to the Apple Menu but certainly not some OS X PB Finder window ! You should test Mac OS 9 (or preceding versions) to see what the Apple Menu is all about...

"One of the goals of Mac OS X was to 'clean up' the whole Mac experience: "

- Many dictators applied a similar strategy... Don't forget the results...

"The desktop in 9 is a catch-all, meaning it gets cluttered, and only a few items are really required to be there- disks, and the trash. Boot up, and it's, 'hello, clutter!' "

- So I would say that Mac OS 9 Desktop is open to anything... Freedom is a good point isn't it? And I don't understand your problem under OS 9... I you were considering that too much mess was over your Desktop, why didn't you organized all that mess ? It was your mess and only yours. Weren't you responsible for it ? Or do you think that Mac OS 9 was responsible for it ? They are many ways, under OS 9, to use your computer without any document, application nor alias over the Desktop... Even without opening any window ! Yes, if your Apple Menu is well customized !

"The Apple menu is the same- it once had a purpose, but, like the desktop, the Apple menu has become a catch all. "

- Yes, fortunately you are free to put what you wan't in the Apple Menu! It really looks like if freedom was frightening you... You seem so happy with your prefer Finder, being limited to use 5 poor big buttons or their keyboard shortcuts equivalent to reach 5 poor folders instantaneously...

"A place for AOL to dump icons."

AOL is doing much better : invading the Menubar...

"I really don't wish to offend anyone, but I get the impression a lot of people just plop the X disk in and start complaining. Work in X for any length of time, and it's rough for maybe two hours, maybe two days, but you adapt... and once you adapt, 9 feels like a game boy!"

- I don't wish to offend you but I get the impression you never used the Apple Menu and start complaining. Etc.........

[jerrydog]

Same for me. I sit infront of X and get a headache. I can't even move an app in the app folder to a a new folder also in the app folder, called internet folder, without it telling me i can't. In fact i can't even throw it in the garbage. The Dock is a terrible way to switch applications and is always in the way. Downloads are like windows, the only way to find them is in the sherlock app. The finder column is one mouse click after another, i use beheirachy in the apple menu, which is about 1000% better. Better stop while ahead. Never thought mac would become like windows, but surprises happen everyday.

[citoc]

Granted I was never able to get "into" the Apple menu way of doing things. I have allways been decidedly visual in my Mac understanding. If I wanted I file, I went to the desktop, opened up the HD, and pulled up the file I needed. Or I'd use tabbed windows on the bottom of my screen. For me, the new Finder is much more efficinent. For someone who as grown accustomed to the Apple Menu, I'm sure it must be less so.

"7. Apple could have easily enhanced the "guts" of the operating system without sacrificing the familiarity of use for it's users. It has introduced quite arbitrary changes with no sound reason (I quote the Application menu as my best example. Why put it on the left when the right would have automatically been more familiar?)"

(Ok, so I know this has nothing to to with my previous comment, but I thought I'd respond)

Apple _tried_ to overhaul the "guts" without messing up the appearence. Wasn't there some OS upgrades which were to fix all Mac OS problems that had a composer's name . . .
Seriously though, like it or lump it Mac OS is dead. Gone. Joined the choirs invisible. Passed on. You get the picture. In its place we have the next version of NeXT OS with Mac OS compatiblity tacked on. Apple can try to make the best file viewer etc. for a UNIX varient possible (and, IMHO, they have already done so. OS X is a much better experience than any GNOME or KDE version I have used, granted those are only the graphical shell on quite a bit more, but I digress again).

All we can hope for is the smoothest possible transition into this new world. Mac OS will never again behave as it "allways has."

------------------
One fish, Two fish, Red
fish, Blue fish.

[jblakeh1]

this is in response to Jerry's problems:

I think the issue with Applications folder priveleges is a bug, but nothing major: If you log out, and log back in with user name 'root' and your regular password, you can delete any file you like.

downloaded files- which be default, are downloaded to your desktop- are not immediately visible. this is clearly a bug... and the reason you can find the files.