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Themes for Tiger Status
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goMac
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Jun 28, 2004, 08:12 PM
 
Heya!

Just thought I'd note that our lead programmer should have gotten Tiger today (he's at WWDC). We'll probably be moving to 10.4 as our development environment within the next week. Of course, we will make sure Duality stays working with 10.3. I don't expect anything will go wrong in the move to 10.4.

We're keeping our eye on 10.4's new features. There will probably be an update to Duality when 10.4 is released. We will withhold any 10.4 specific features until 10.4 is out, but release a final version of Duality for 10.3 of course.

I was working on writing some OpenGL functionality for Catalyst, our theme editor, but will most likely go back and write new 10.4 Core Image code for that instead. This should give Catalyst many functions of Photoshop. This will most likely mean Catalyst will require 10.4, but there may be an interim release.

But, whatever the case may be, the final version of Duality 5 will fully support 10.4, if it does not already.
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jokell82
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Jun 28, 2004, 09:43 PM
 
Any news on when we'll see the next public beta?

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fireside
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Jun 28, 2004, 09:46 PM
 
hey give us screenshots of Tiger in action will yah?
     
goMac  (op)
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Jun 28, 2004, 11:24 PM
 
Originally posted by jokell82:
Any news on when we'll see the next public beta?
Yes. The current beta will be expiring very soon (expect a drop back into Aqua).

The current stall is icons. We have them fully working, except I am not happy with the engine for technical reasons, so its being thrown back to the drawing board. I will be releasing a beta with full support for application theming within the next few days. I just have to decide if I want to send the setup assistant along with it.
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goMac  (op)
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Jun 28, 2004, 11:25 PM
 
Originally posted by fireside:
hey give us screenshots of Tiger in action will yah?
I'll try my best, but I do have a little thing called an NDA.
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afphreak01
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Jun 28, 2004, 11:34 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
I'll try my best, but I do have a little thing called an NDA.
what NDA?
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BurningBright
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Jun 29, 2004, 01:30 AM
 
If you base your development on the Core Image "units", be sure to note that you will not only be limiting the themers to Tiger but to a certain set of hardware as well (less than two years old only)
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goMac  (op)
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Jun 29, 2004, 01:46 AM
 
Originally posted by BurningBright:
If you base your development on the Core Image "units", be sure to note that you will not only be limiting the themers to Tiger but to a certain set of hardware as well (less than two years old only)
Core Image runs on any Tiger machine, as it scales down. To get full hardware acceleration you need the certain set of hardware. I'm mainly interested in the image manipulation it does, the hardware acceleration is a nice bonus though.
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servo
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Jun 29, 2004, 02:16 AM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
I'll try my best, but I do have a little thing called an NDA.

Considering the Tiger DVD's (and a cool T-Shirt ) were handed out to 3500 people today I would worry too much about an NDA. Tiger is pretty much out of the bag.
     
BurningBright
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Jun 29, 2004, 03:51 AM
 
Excellent and good luck Colin. From what I see so far embracing this technology is the way to go
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Frisbee
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Jun 29, 2004, 11:35 AM
 
When you say catalyst will have photoshop-like features... You mean, like, we'll be able to mass rehue a theme? If that's so, you should have a booth at macworld so I can give you a big hug. Or something.
     
goMac  (op)
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:26 PM
 
Originally posted by Frisbee:
When you say catalyst will have photoshop-like features... You mean, like, we'll be able to mass rehue a theme? If that's so, you should have a booth at macworld so I can give you a big hug. Or something.
Yes, there will be something like that.

Here is everything we can do with Core Imaging:

Focus Filters
Gaussian Blur
Motion Blur
Zoom Blur
Unsharp Mark

Color Adjustment Filters
Color Controls
Color Matrix
Exposure Adjust
Gamma Adjust
Hue Adjust
White Point Adjust

Color Filters
Color Invert
Color Monochrome
Color Posterize
False Color
Sepia Tone

Compositing Filters
Addition
Maximum
Minimum
Multiply
Source Atop
Source In
Source Out
Source Over

Distortion Filters
Bump Distortion
Displacement Distortion
Glass Distortion
Glass Lozenge
Torus Lens Distortion
Twirl Distortion
Vortex Distortion

Generator Filters
Checkerboard
Constant Color
Lenticular Halo
Star Shine
Stripes
Sunbeams

Geometry Filters
Affine Transform
Crop

Perspective Transform
Gradient Filters
Gaussian Gradient
Linear Gradient
Radial Gradient

Halftone Filters
Circular Screen
Dot Screen
Hatched Screen
Line Screen

Stylish Filters
Bloom
Edges
Gloom
Pixellate
Spot Light

Tile Filters
Affine Tile
Op Tile
Parallelogram Tile
Perspective Tile
Triangle Tile

Transition Filters
Copy Machine
Dissolve
Flash
Mod
Ripple
Swipe

This is just the plain list from Apple's site. Obviously we have no reason to use all these things (like transition filters).
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Frisbee
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:38 PM
 


Why doesn't Apple just make their OWN Photoshop?
     
unlinear
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:55 PM
 
so you're requiring an OS that won't be out for another year (worst case scenario) for your new product?

I guess with the release schedule you've followed so far, I guess that works out-- goMac, start your delays.
     
goMac  (op)
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Jun 29, 2004, 01:29 PM
 
Originally posted by unlinear:
so you're requiring an OS that won't be out for another year (worst case scenario) for your new product?

I guess with the release schedule you've followed so far, I guess that works out-- goMac, start your delays.
I said we will release an interm version of Catalyst if the wait is long without these features. However, Catalyst will be developed with Core Image in mind, and the final release will only come with Tiger. If Tiger is not out by the end of the year, expect a Panther build of Catalyst. We already have a 3/4 done build for Panther.

Depending on how mature the Core Image implementation is in the developer preview, we should have Catalyst done well before Tiger is done. Obviously people who've "obtained" Tiger can use the Tiger build.

This is really exciting technology though and it would be great to build a theme editor on it. We'd like to take full advantage of new Tiger capabilities in our programs.
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diskgolfking
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Jun 29, 2004, 01:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Frisbee:


Why doesn't Apple just make their OWN Photoshop?
It looks like with CoreImage they won't need to. Kids everywhere will be writing versions of photoshop in their CS classes.....
     
BurningBright
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Jun 29, 2004, 02:27 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
This is really exciting technology though and it would be great to build a theme editor on it. We'd like to take full advantage of new Tiger capabilities in our programs.
hear hear!

I'm playing with using the Core Image set with a UI... this stuff is so easy to work with. I hesitate to say it will affect theming in a big way bit it has potential.
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renn
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Jun 29, 2004, 03:01 PM
 
will tiger be installable on G4 systems? and what are the minimal system requirements?
     
Synotic
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Jun 29, 2004, 03:16 PM
 
I hope you guys realize what a infinitesimally small part the filters are of Photoshop I'd imagine it would take a team at least 2 or 3 years to come up with something even resembling Photoshop.

And Renn, yes it can be run on G4s, and G3s. I haven't heard of any Macs being excluded yet.
     
Angus_D
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Jun 29, 2004, 03:21 PM
 
Originally posted by servo:
Considering the Tiger DVD's (and a cool T-Shirt ) were handed out to 3500 people today I would worry too much about an NDA. Tiger is pretty much out of the bag.
You, sir, are an idiot.
     
renn
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Jun 29, 2004, 04:05 PM
 
so the SDK release is actually a stable version containing all 150 new features?

i really wonder what this could mean to duality and ss, regarding the release date, tiger will be here sooner than any major ss update, so duality might just be able to put in some good competition against ss...either way i'll try both anyways..
     
fireside
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Jun 29, 2004, 04:37 PM
 
Originally posted by Synotic:
And Renn, yes it can be run on G4s, and G3s. I haven't heard of any Macs being excluded yet.
AFAIK, Tiger has the same requirements as Panther.
     
fireside
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Jun 29, 2004, 04:39 PM
 
Originally posted by renn:
so the SDK release is actually a stable version containing all 150 new features?
doubtful. i don't think apple is as far along with Tiger as it was with Panther last year. Panther was released, what, a couple of month after WWDC, and Tiger is going to be released in the first half of 2005.
     
renn
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Jun 29, 2004, 05:10 PM
 
i think i'm sure that jobs himself said at the end of his keynote that they would be showing all 150 features in the seminars afterwards...but then again i could be wrong
     
servo
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Jun 29, 2004, 05:21 PM
 
Originally posted by renn:
will tiger be installable on G4 systems? and what are the minimal system requirements?
Walking around the convention center half the people here are running Tiger on their laptops now. Many are Ti PowerBooks and G3 iBooks. I'm guessing it will be just fine on pretty much anything Panther runs on.
     
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Jun 29, 2004, 11:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Angus_D:
You, sir, are an idiot.
You, sir, seem to have no recollection of what happened after last year's WWDC.

I'm not a developer, didn't go to the conference, and have no idea what (if anything) they've changed in the distribution method this year. But if it's anything at all like last year, I expect to see more screenshots than I can handle and a few burned copies floating around within a week or two.
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NetworkShadow
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Jun 30, 2004, 12:18 AM
 
Originally posted by wibs:
You, sir, seem to have no recollection of what happened after last year's WWDC.

I'm not a developer, didn't go to the conference, and have no idea what (if anything) they've changed in the distribution method this year. But if it's anything at all like last year, I expect to see more screenshots than I can handle and a few burned copies floating around within a week or two.

mmmm burned copies... *drools* too bad my friend doesn't work at the reseller anymore, he might have been able to get a copy.
click one
     
dws
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Jun 30, 2004, 01:03 AM
 
Colin, I am as excited by Core Image as you, but to so dramatically shift parts of Catalyst development to this new API set would seem to be more of a version 2 or 3 kind of thing; rather than deciding to put out a 10.3 "interim" release until you get the Core Image stuff working the way you want it to (and your users are actually running 10.4!). I had no idea that Catalyst's development was at such a primitive stage (it would have to be to be able to shift gears so dramatically). Your comments in these forums have tended to indicate otherwise. Perhaps I misunderstand your situation, but it would appear as if you are intending to abandon coding efforts that haven't been going all that well; in favor of a new set of APIs (that you have no experience with) on a version of OS X that won't be out for as long as a year. [I'm not trying to sound harsh or judgmental. Your announcement simply surprises me.]

A comment about Core Image... While it will certainly run without a high-end GPU, you can be certain that (some of) it will be slow on older hardware. You may be shifting your development strategy into a realm where too few will care to use your software; since it might prove to be too processor-intensive. [It all depends on how you code it, of course; and how efficient these new APIs are.]

Whatever... I wish you all the luck in working with Core Image. Exciting things are going to happen to image manipulation on OS X over the next year or three. There is no doubt that Core Image will become a part of working with themes - eventually.

It will be interesting to see how your projects progress / evolve.

ps
It wouldn't surprise me to see themes some day utilizing timed transition affects as part of the GUI. For example, a water theme could have a menubar that has moving ripples! Anybody who's seen the movie of a Dashboard widget being activated knows that the technology will be present in 10.4 and could be done in themes (as soon as SS and Xtender are coded to allow for such things!). Core Image will create a very interesting future!
     
goMac  (op)
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Jun 30, 2004, 01:50 AM
 
Originally posted by wibs:
You, sir, seem to have no recollection of what happened after last year's WWDC.

I'm not a developer, didn't go to the conference, and have no idea what (if anything) they've changed in the distribution method this year. But if it's anything at all like last year, I expect to see more screenshots than I can handle and a few burned copies floating around within a week or two.
Last years build was on 2 cd's, and made the move to three on the online WWDC account.

This years build is on DVD.

It also doesn't change that I could have my ADC membership terminated if Apple wanted to.
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goMac  (op)
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Jun 30, 2004, 01:55 AM
 
Apple's new API from demonstrations is quite impressive and we can start working with it this week.

The problem is Duality and Catalyst are based on the same code, our ThemeKit framework. They both natively use XScheme. Because they share the same code this gives Catalyst automatically any ability Duality has. So Catalyst development is quite far along

Duality takes this shared code and stacks a smart reader on top of it that applies the theme to your system. Catalyst adds a theme editor on top instead. Many editing functions are already built into ThemeKit. The juncture we are at right now is writing an image manipulation system. Originally I was working with XGame, our companies OS X OpenGL wrapper. Effects were going to applied via OpenGL. Core Imaging looks much more appealing. The work it would take to do things in OpenGL simply is not worth it anymore, and would be a waste of time. What I'm saying is a feature complete Catalyst will require 10.4. The OpenGL implementation would be too much trouble now after Core Imaging.
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olorin15
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Jun 30, 2004, 02:23 AM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
Apple's new API from demonstrations is quite impressive and we can start working with it this week.

The problem is Duality and Catalyst are based on the same code, our ThemeKit framework. They both natively use XScheme. Because they share the same code this gives Catalyst automatically any ability Duality has. So Catalyst development is quite far along

Duality takes this shared code and stacks a smart reader on top of it that applies the theme to your system. Catalyst adds a theme editor on top instead. Many editing functions are already built into ThemeKit. The juncture we are at right now is writing an image manipulation system. Originally I was working with XGame, our companies OS X OpenGL wrapper. Effects were going to applied via OpenGL. Core Imaging looks much more appealing. The work it would take to do things in OpenGL simply is not worth it anymore, and would be a waste of time. What I'm saying is a feature complete Catalyst will require 10.4. The OpenGL implementation would be too much trouble now after Core Imaging.
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BurningBright
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Jun 30, 2004, 03:03 AM
 
Well, that's rude - not harsh.

I'm seeing that on a geforce 4 Ti (not a core image accelerated gpu) the splash effects in the dashboard aren't shown, among others - so those visual effects have the potential to at least be optional portions of the UI.
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