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Panther/Tiger and "new" interfaces?
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diamondsw
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Jul 7, 2004, 04:27 PM
 
Does it bother anyone else that Panther and Tiger (even moreso) keep coming up with very "novel" interfaces where existing interface elements work just fine? A few things I've seen:

1) Why do we have yet *another* window style - Spotlight? Now we have Aqua, Brushed Metal, and Spotlight (and Garage Band, when you get down to it). Why? What meaningful purpose does this serve? Why does System Preferences use this, but not Address Book or Mail (they use spotlight too)?

2) Why is the spotlight menu blue when not selected, and gray when selected, the exact *opposite* of the rest of the interface? Why does the popdown box have its own distinct gaudy style?

3) We not only have custom window types, but Spotlight appears to have its own special popup menus, buttons, etc that are flatter, rounded, and white. Why not normal controls?

4) In the new "Print" pane, why do we have square buttons? Why not normal buttons and such?

5) What *is* that funky blue spotlight bar in Finder windows (the one with "Home", "Everywhere", etc)? Why aren't standard interface elements (radio buttons, etc) being used?

6) The entire "Accounts" pane in Panther - why do we have the scrolling picture list, segmented into you, other users, and "Login Options"? Placing your user first in the list makes sense, but why split it into its own item, separate from the list? And why is login options (very different from user options, global preferences, etc) not placed on its own tab to enforce that important distinction?

Why does one app use one style and another use something else? Why are there no longer any guidelines about what does what? What the heck happened to the company that published "Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines"?

Only a few, rare items have truly called for new interface elements. None of these new "themes" do anything but fracture the interface pointlessly. They don't convey any different information or offer any different functionality - they just look different for no reason (which will inhibit people trying to generalize what controls do, how they work, and what they look like).

Is there anything we as users can do, other than post feedback and resort to hacks like Shapeshifter if we want a consistent interface?
     
RevEvs
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Jul 7, 2004, 04:37 PM
 
Apple got rid of the HIG Group, and now do what they feel like... thats pretty much it.
I free'd my mind... now it won't come back.
     
Brass
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Jul 7, 2004, 07:50 PM
 
Try not to worry too much about Tiger. Don't forget that it's not actually going to be released for several months yet. Anything that's in the preview may or may not actually be in the final version.

Having said that, I do agree with you, that a bit more consistency would be nice, even in Panther.
     
Rickster
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Jul 8, 2004, 01:28 AM
 
Try not to worry too much about Tiger. Don't forget that it's not actually going to be released for several months yet. Anything that's in the preview may or may not actually be in the final version.
My sentiments exactly. Did you notice that Finder's "funky blue bar" you speak of isn't as blue or as funky in Steve's keynote or the screenshots on apple.com? Much can change in the next six (or more) months.
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curmi
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Jul 8, 2004, 03:18 AM
 
I agree totally diamondsw.

And I wrote all about the Accounts preferences here. You might find it interesting given your comments.

http://homepage.mac.com/curmi/what/#buttons
     
arekkusu
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Jul 8, 2004, 03:41 AM
 
I agree. Jaguar was the best GUI. Panther stinks. Tiger is worse.

Please write Apple feedback with clearly described reasons why you dislike the Aqua/Brushed Metal/Spotlight jumble.
     
bastion
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Jul 8, 2004, 03:50 AM
 
I disagree. Jaguar was ugly and buggy as hell. Panther was better. Tiger is going to be even better.
Cheers,
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Sven G
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Jul 8, 2004, 05:03 AM
 
BTW, the Jaguar tabs were beautiful (IMHO), and much better than the current inconsistent mix of Safari-style tabs and the new button-like ones: in Panther, there is a useless level of complication and redundancy, on this front (and others).

As curmi says in the interesting web page above (and something like this could be applied to many other pseudo-new fetures, of course), Apple should go back to the Jaguar tabs. Just work on them visually and make them look a little nicer perhaps. But don't lose the whole tab metaphor just to make the panel look "cool" - your users are worth more than that.
( Last edited by Sven G; Jul 8, 2004 at 05:11 AM. )

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Samanoske
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Jul 8, 2004, 05:32 AM
 
Originally posted by RevEvs:
Apple got rid of the HIG Group, and now do what they feel like... thats pretty much it.
whats the HIG group ? and what did they do ?
.- OS X aDDICTED -.
     
moonmonkey
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Jul 8, 2004, 06:28 AM
 
The new functions/features have new interface elements, the old ones have the old ones.
The old ones will be updated before the product ships.
     
P
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Jul 8, 2004, 10:02 AM
 
Originally posted by Samanoske:
whats the HIG group ? and what did they do ?
Human Interface Group. A group that wrote a bunch of guidelines for how all programs should work. They were a bit overzealous at times - not even the old Apple coudl follow all guidelines - but the basic idea was good.
     
lookmark
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Jul 8, 2004, 10:56 AM
 
Guidelines are just that -- principles to be guided by, and not followed religiously. I rather think of OS X as having returned to the early days of the Mac OS, where experimentation was more common (remember Hypercard?). It's fine line, but I've come to agree with the fluctuations in OS X; I prefer (for the most part) a degree of experimentation over absolute consistency. As long as the user isn't confused.

At the very least, it keeps things interesting. Life is certainly far more exciting, OS-wise, than it was in the OS 7-9 days.
     
gorgonzola
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Jul 8, 2004, 04:35 PM
 
Experimentation is one thing, and the exponential spread of the brushed metal virus is another. It's valuable to experiment, but I think what they are doing is more like making the UI less and less consistent with each passing release without any observable improvements in usability or aesthetics. And it stinks.

I haven't actually used Spotlight, so I won't opine on its interface, though my initial gut reaction was "Why?"...
"Do not be too positive about things. You may be in error." (C. F. Lawlor, The Mixicologist)
     
BuonRotto
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Jul 8, 2004, 05:03 PM
 
A few points: while people are on one hand saying that this is a developer preview and things will likely change, others are pointing out that features generally are implemented more or less as shown in these previews. Having said that, appearances do change late in the process quite often, and some minor stuff is dropped. In a developer preview, especially when we're talking about appearances, they more leverage to try stuff out. Let them play for now, there's no better opportunity to try stuff out on a limited scale to see how things float.

Now as far as the HIG group, the group was disbanded and many of the people in the group moved into project teams, and some left (or were pushed out, I dunno). They work their ideas into shipping projects now instead of writing white papers for ideas that never get implemented. This is why features are added in one place and show up later in more places. Implying that Apple has no GUI experts or guidelines in effect is just not true. But the guidelines for Tiger aren't published yet because they're not anywhere near being finished. We're comparing what we know of previous guidelines to an experimental build of a newer system. Any apparent discrepancies between Panther's guidelines and Tiger's guidelines mean squat until the guidelines and the system are all synchronized. This means that the stuff you see in Tiger can change and the guidelines can change too to qualify what you see.

I also think the term "consistency" is something of an empty mantra, usually confused with uniformity. Remember, ease of use is the goal (another empty mantra ), consistency is a means to that end.

Also, I did mean to say that I agree the UI and especially the appearance for things like Spotlight and other areas is inconsistent and a bit out of whack in the WWDC preview. From what I've heard, however, post-WWDC versions are more consistent with appearances, though the righthand sidebar thing hasn't changed for example. I actualy think the revised Aqua in Tiger is coming closer to the metal theme, so we'll see what comes of that someday. Seems to me that since the metal single-window UI with a source view and media abilities are going to be more pervasive in the furute, Apple will likely have to reconsider metal, pinstripes and all that when that day arrives.
( Last edited by BuonRotto; Jul 8, 2004 at 05:14 PM. )
     
z|gzag
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Jul 8, 2004, 05:07 PM
 
This post is right on about the interface! Bring back some consistency, *please*! Bring back the HIG, follow it to the dot... we want an OS, not clickable graphics all over the screen. Why even have a GUI toolkit? lets let all the developers just make images for their UI, or make them all html like Mickeysoft... seriously, this is becoming to be a mess... every app looks and works differently! Classic was sooo much more consistent. Jaguar was the best of the OS X breed, Panther is worse in GUI consistency, Tiger (though its a preview and is unfair to judge) looks even less consistent! We're getting something that's starting to resemble Windows here, and that's *not* in a good way.

BRING BACK CONSISTENCY!
~zig
     
clarkgoble
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Jul 9, 2004, 01:37 AM
 
Brushed metal has grown on me. I no longer "theme" it away. Still, we have three completely different "looks" for the Mac. We have the metal apps, the old "regular" apps, and then the professional apps. (i.e. FCP etc.) Why? It makes little sense.

Then there are changes that make little sense. Like limiting the Finder selection color to one of 7 bright colors. While all other selections in all other apps are the pastel colors I chose. Then there is the inconsistency of the sidebar in the Finder. Are they objects I can move and select or are they buttons? I'd say the former, but they are colored when selected like a button with the bright blue.

I love the tabs in Safari, and I think the Panther tabs are vastly superior to the too intrusive ones in Jaguar. But why two tabs plus the tabs that Adobe and many other apps use? Actually this one is much weaker. The "Panther tabs" are for selection groups while the Safari tabs are for documents. The problem is that there isn't a standard UI for *all* applications that uses the Safari tabs. There ought to be.

Also will someone *please* anti-alias those damn flags if you are going to move Keycaps there!
     
Fonzie
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Jul 9, 2004, 08:46 AM
 
All these questions. Why this and why that.

Apple does what it feels like. They made the Apple Human Interface Guidelines, no ?

So, do they not know best what they are supposed to do?

You have to be a very close friend to Steve Jobs or someone to even have influence on let's say, the interface of the upcoming Tiger.

There's No Offposition On the Genius Switch - David Letterman
     
moki
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Jul 9, 2004, 09:05 AM
 
I do not think it's fair to comment on any of the UI in Tiger. It clearly is not finished.
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
     
JKT
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Jul 9, 2004, 09:39 AM
 
Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Then there is the inconsistency of the sidebar in the Finder. Are they objects I can move and select or are they buttons? I'd say the former, but they are colored when selected like a button with the bright blue.
I have always thought from day one that the sidebar should be solid metal like the toolbar to distinguish the objects within it from being mistaken for folders in another (fixed) column - which they aren't. Making them look more like buttons and less like folders would also be a good idea...
     
crystalthunder
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Jul 9, 2004, 10:23 AM
 
As somebody mentioned the Pro App interface, I'd just like to say I rather enjoy the idea of seperating application GUIs by their market. I am a huge fan of the Pro Interface (particularly DVD Studio Pro 3 and Motion) because it is optimized for functionality relative to it's market. Granted that can't work for all markets, Apple has shown it can work quite well.

And after using Brushed Metal for a few years now I've become quite accustomed to it. Now I prefer it because I've become annoyed of continuously white Aqua applications. Metal is a nice break from all the white, and I think Apple knows that
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BuonRotto
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Jul 9, 2004, 10:45 AM
 
Originally posted by JKT:
I have always thought from day one that the sidebar should be solid metal like the toolbar to distinguish the objects within it from being mistaken for folders in another (fixed) column - which they aren't. Making them look more like buttons and less like folders would also be a good idea...
This is a pretty good idea, actually. I know people will protest because it means more metal, but really, aren't those things really acting as buttons? However, a problem with this is that since users can place items in there arbitrarily, if it were true metal, it might not look editable. So maybe there's some better indication or appearance to clarify this? MAybe make them look more like buttons but not change the field they sit in? Some good feedback to Apple anyway.

I have this friend who double clicks on everything in Windows Explorer here at work, including the sidebar items. I was trying to help him navigate the network yesterday and he kept double-clicking on the items on the left. So the first click would open the link in front of him and second click would open the next link to appear in that spot as soon as it appeared. He kept going off in the wrong direction in the network because he can't tell when to single-click and when to double-click. Of course, he also double-clicks links on web pages too, so it may just be beyond repair for him.
     
diskgolfking
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Jul 9, 2004, 10:51 AM
 
Originally posted by JKT:
I have always thought from day one that the sidebar should be solid metal like the toolbar to distinguish the objects within it from being mistaken for folders in another (fixed) column - which they aren't. Making them look more like buttons and less like folders would also be a good idea...
Remember that they can also be used as drag-and-drop targets. In that instance they are acting more like folders (or a dock item).
     
JKT
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Jul 9, 2004, 11:04 AM
 
Originally posted by diskgolfking:
Remember that they can also be used as drag-and-drop targets. In that instance they are acting more like folders (or a dock item).
Or a Finder toolbar item. This is the problem with the sidebar - it offers a very good way to access your common/favourite locations, but its behaviour is a weird mix of metaphors. What is certain (to me at least) is that there should be some visual distinction between its contents and those of the columns/icons/lists in the main Finder pane.
     
SafariX
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Jul 9, 2004, 01:23 PM
 
Originally posted by JKT:
I have always thought from day one that the sidebar should be solid metal like the toolbar to distinguish the objects within it from being mistaken for folders in another (fixed) column - which they aren't. Making them look more like buttons and less like folders would also be a good idea...
I agree. Good idea!
     
clarkgoble
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Jul 9, 2004, 01:30 PM
 
I agree that part of the problem is that the sidebar is a mix of metaphors and that is a problem. I think, however, that it really is more like the sidebar within WinExplorer. i.e. a different set of widgets representing a view. Thus it is more like real folders than buttons. So I think treating them like buttons is a mistake.

The double-click problem really isn't a problem since in column view you don't have to double click to see the contents of a folder. The sidebar really is like a super-meta-column.


Getting back to the original topic, one of the disappointments of the WWDC preview was that there were no significant changes/fixes to the Finder. I'm sure they're coming. But while the Panther Finder was a *huge* improvement over earlier versions, it still needs a lot of work and has a few silly backsteps. (i.e. limiting colors to 7)
     
BuonRotto
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Jul 9, 2004, 04:55 PM
 
Originally posted by JKT:
Or a Finder toolbar item.
The Finder toolbar in Jag was totally exceptional. In Panther, it is a toolbar like any other. It holds tools, not places. (Well, I heard you can still put certain folder up there if you know where to look, but I would argue that this is residual from Jag, not actively supported.) The mixed metaphor conundrum with the Finder sidebar is at least partly because of the mixed metaphor of the pre-Panther toolbar that preceded it. The Jag toolbar affected people's expectations of the Panther one, however skewed that expectation was relative to the Aqua guidelines and implementations of the toolbar everywhere else.

It goes to show too how many people will accept exceptional behavior in a UI so long as the context is clear. The Finder to many users is still the center of the Mac experience and so differing behavior is tolerated in that context. It's why I don't have any problem with metal vs pinstripes per se although the metal "context" is poorly defined and needs to be clearer and consistent. In that case, the behavioral differences between metal and pinstripes is relatively minimal in most cases, what having a metal windows draggable where it is textured unlike pinstripes. Having an internalized sidebar/source view I guess is the only major difference I can think of off the top of my head. If the guidelines for what context metal is suited for were more logical, even though it means post-rationalizing them, then having metal, pinstripes, "pro" and dashboard appearances (I sincerely hope these will be covered in revised guidelines) together can actually improve the user experience by clearing signaling context for behavior and performance.

____________
I think the reasons why the only major new feature shown at WWDC was smart folder are twofold:

1. why bother going over small improvements, even mentioning that small improvements are being made is kind of agiven
2. LAternative means for organizing and finding data are being introduced. The Finder is becoming less central in that respect, and is one of a few tools now to handle it. Apple focused on these alternatives.

This just got me thinking: perhaps Apple is more interested in separating the two functions of the Finder into discrete parts of the system: finding and organizing. I've always found it odd that throughout the Finder's development and even in Panther, the primary function of the Finder was to organize stuff and the secondary use was to actually find things. When you consider spotlight and the increasingly pervasive use of source views (sidebars, drawers, open and save dialogs) to organize stuff, it kind of hints at this direction.
( Last edited by BuonRotto; Jul 9, 2004 at 05:02 PM. )
     
Jim Paradise
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Jul 9, 2004, 06:52 PM
 
Originally posted by arekkusu:
I agree. Jaguar was the best GUI. Panther stinks. Tiger is worse.

Please write Apple feedback with clearly described reasons why you dislike the Aqua/Brushed Metal/Spotlight jumble.
My sentiments exactly.
     
Angus_D
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Jul 10, 2004, 04:18 AM
 
Originally posted by moki:
I do not think it's fair to comment on any of the UI in Tiger. It clearly is not finished.
But surely it's fair to provide feedback to Apple in order to influence the way that they finish it?
     
nforcer
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Jul 10, 2004, 06:42 AM
 
Originally posted by curmi:
http://homepage.mac.com/curmi/what/#buttons
Nice page. I agree with a lot of your suggestions.
     
wibs
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Jul 10, 2004, 07:48 AM
 
Originally posted by Angus_D:
But surely it's fair to provide feedback to Apple in order to influence the way that they finish it?
Seriously. We are one thing to Apple - customers. Now when it comes to something like an OS, the customer is not always right, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they like and don't like. To say "I don't want my screen looking like photoshop ran the crayola filter" is reasonable when the screen does, in fact, look like someone wasn't happy with a box of only 16 colors for no other reason than a 32 box was next to it on the shelf. Just because every widget, menu, and window can look completely different, doesn't mean they should.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just a customer. Considering that some people I know haven't bought Panther yet because they don't like some of its new directions, maybe design should be done with the customer in mind.
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curmi
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Jul 10, 2004, 09:14 AM
 
Originally posted by nforcer:
Nice page. I agree with a lot of your suggestions.
Thanks nforcer. If there are things you like, make sure you send a suggestion to Apple (you are welcome to link to my page).
     
   
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