|
|
Creep or Hero?
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status:
Offline
|
|
I say a brave and honest man.
V
|
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: "Working"
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by voodoo
I say a brave and honest man.
V
Agreed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 1999
Location: New York City
Status:
Offline
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: ------>
Status:
Offline
|
|
He was on 60 Minutes tonight. Strength of character comes to mind, apparently a man who doesn't confuse doing the right thing with being unpatriotic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by marden
I say creep
Of course you would.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2006
Status:
Offline
|
|
I voted creep without clicking the link... and I was wrong. I say this guy did the right thing and it wasnt his fault his superiors leaked it to a news agency. Its a shame how the actions of 7 people defaced an entire country.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Rockies
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by TheWOAT
I voted creep without clicking the link... and I was wrong. I say this guy did the right thing and it wasnt his fault his superiors leaked it to a news agency. Its a shame how the actions of 7 people defaced an entire country.
Seven people - you mean Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the rest of the cabinet?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2006
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by BRussell
Seven people - you mean Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the rest of the cabinet?
Yes, because we all know Bush gave the order to the MP's that for the sake of national security, they needed to get the prisoners to build a 6-man nude pyramid. Just in time for the midterms.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Menands, NY
Status:
Offline
|
|
OK, Marden, why do you think he was a creep? You've said things I consider out there before, but frankly, I'm shocked at this one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Rockies
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by TheWOAT
Yes, because we all know Bush gave the order to the MP's that for the sake of national security, they needed to get the prisoners to build a 6-man nude pyramid. Just in time for the midterms.
Haha, no but there's absolutely no doubt that they approved torture, and this was simply part of that. And it wasn't just in time for the mid-terms, it was just in time for the presidential re-election campaign, and Kerry and the Democrats pathetically refused to make an issue of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Status:
Offline
|
|
He blew the whistle on a group of people who were betraying everything this country stands for by torturing prisoners. If that doesn't make him a hero then I don't know what could.
|
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Ron Goodman
OK, Marden, why do you think he was a creep? You've said things I consider out there before, but frankly, I'm shocked at this one.
Thanks for asking.
You never served in the military?
Unit integrity. Unit loyalty. You don't wash your dirty laundry in public.
In the absence of leadership you ASSUME leadership.
If it had been me I'd have sent copies of the goods to a safe place and trustworthy people. Then approached each and every person and said this:
You know you have committed court-martial offenses and the proof has been captured on photo disk and copies have been provided trustworthy individuals as well as copies put in safe locations. In the event of my death the aforementioned individuals will send this evidence to the IG and to CNN and the NYT IF and ONLY IF it appears my death has anything to do with murder or a staged accident.
So, as long as I remain here at the Prison on admin duty it is unlikely that I will die under any circumstances.
Now here is what will happen.
ALL of you will immediately stop this prisoner abuse. It is against the UCMJ. It against our rules of detainment. If news of this got out not only would you go to prison but it would cause terrible harm to our efforts in Iraq, our nation as a whole and endanger the lives of our fellow soldiers.
I don't want to take this to the next higher level and I don't want you to get in trouble.
So, if you immediately stop this behavior, all will be cool.
If not, you will be arrested.
Now, go forth and sin no more.
And forget we had this talk.
DONE.
The violations would stop. The unit integrity would have been preserved. He would have exerted leadership and also would have shown loyalty to his fellow soldiers and his country.
When they recognized he didn't want them to go to prison they would have realized he was a real man who was doing what was best for his men, unit and country.
Although he's really not a creep. Just young and dumb.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status:
Offline
|
|
So you believe that reporting crimes to the authorities makes you a creep?
Is this how you would want it handled if somebody witnessed you being knifed? The witness — not wanting to be young and dumb — would just go and talk over coffee with your attacker, then refuse to testify against him because that's disloyal to the country?
|
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Annals of MacNN History
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by marden
Unit integrity. Unit loyalty. You don't wash your dirty laundry in public.
He gave a CD-ROM to superiors. That's private.
Also, the unit lost integrity once it turned its back on our principles.
I guess we shouldn't be shocked you hate a rat. You seem to keep instilling them with the blame for other people's wrongs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In yer threads
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Millennium
He blew the whistle on a group of people who were betraying everything this country stands for by torturing prisoners. If that doesn't make him a hero then I don't know what could.
Then what you would be saying there is, a good percentage of the WWII vets were VERY unpatriotic.
Good luck with that.
As for what this guy "is" unless I actually know his actual intentions of such thing I couldn't make a decision.There were some reports it was a "Get even" when a few he didn't get along with. So if that was the case, this isn't an act of heroism.
But I would say he is neither a hero, nor a creep.
(
Last edited by Kevin; Dec 11, 2006 at 03:22 AM.
)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Chuckit
So you believe that reporting crimes to the authorities makes you a creep?
Is this how you would want it handled if somebody witnessed you being knifed? The witness — not wanting to be young and dumb — would just go and talk over coffee with your attacker, then refuse to testify against him because that's disloyal to the country?
Your mardenization skills leave something to be desired.
If the enemy did that to me I would figure it is the enemy. If the enemy hid the evidence of their torture I'd figure that's just logical they'd do that. Duh!
If one of my own guys knifed me there would be no question that he should be arrested.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Annals of MacNN History
Status:
Offline
|
|
Aww, why is this not an open poll. I want to know who the other two who voted creep are.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by marden
Your mardenization skills leave something to be desired.
If the enemy did that to me I would figure it is the enemy. If the enemy hid the evidence of their torture I'd figure that's just logical they'd do that. Duh!
If one of my own guys knifed me there would be no question that he should be arrested.
It's a fellow American who knifed you, don't worry. So, how about it? Is it traitorous to the country to tell when a fellow American has done something very wrong?
|
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Dakar²
He gave a CD-ROM to superiors. That's private.
Also, the unit lost integrity once it turned its back on our principles.
I guess we shouldn't be shocked you hate a rat. You seem to keep instilling them with the blame for other people's wrongs.
The disk(s) should not have been officially dealt with because there is only ONE THING that can happen, and that is exactly what happened.
And what good has come from it????
The prisoners were no longer abused.
The culprits lives are ruined.
The whistle blower's life is ruined.
America loses as the enemy (foreign AND domestic) beats us up with it YEARS after the fact.
American lives are lost DIRECTLY because of Iraqi retribution.
Great.
My way?
The prisoners would no longer be abused. The culprits would stop abusing. The whistle blower would life normally. No 'extra' American deaths would have resulted. America would have been spared the P.R. damage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Chuckit
It's a fellow American who knifed you, don't worry. So, how about it? Is it traitorous to the country to tell when a fellow American has done something very wrong?
ONE of us is not grasping the dynamics of the situation. ONE of us should look into that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Dakar²
Aww, why is this not an open poll. I want to know who the other two who voted creep are.
Abe and Mojo?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status:
Offline
|
|
The guy stood up for what was right. If we had more people like that, the problem never would have occurred in the first place. You shouldn't be blaming him for informing his superiors, per his duty — you should be blaming the people who made it necessary.
What this country does not need is more cowards who do evil things and then spend the rest of their lives trying to hide it.
Originally Posted by marden
ONE of us is not grasping the dynamics of the situation. ONE of us should look into that.
One of us is playing Monday-morning quarterback with this guy's life — and suggesting that we should support dishonesty and law-breaking. One of us should look into that.
|
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In yer threads
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Chuckit
The guy stood up for what was right.
You THINK he did. Again there are rumors going around that he did it to "get back at" those that he disliked or felt that wronged him. If that was his intentions there is nothing noble about what he did.
That might not be the case, and I am not saying it is. I am saying none of us know why he did it but himself. So we can't really judge either way about what he stood for.
There are a lot of people that get credit for doing great things when they had selfish reasons in mind for doing them.
Do *I* think it was the right thing to do. Yes. I also think the media over-played it. And choose poor timing to let it out. But they too had their agenda.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Annals of MacNN History
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by marden
The prisoners were no longer abused.
This is a bad thing?
Originally Posted by marden
The culprits lives are ruined.
They didn't deserve it?
Originally Posted by marden
The whistle blower's life is ruined.
That's why he's a hero. He sacrificed his life to do what's right.
Originally Posted by marden
America loses as the enemy (foreign AND domestic) beats us up with it YEARS after the fact.
Spare me the melodrama.
I can see where this is going. You don't object to whistle blowing because of what was handled, you object to it because you don't object to what was actually happening. Am I off?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Annals of MacNN History
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by marden
Abe and Mojo?
You posted from the other accounts?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Chuckit
The guy stood up for what was right. If we had more people like that, the problem never would have occurred in the first place. You shouldn't be blaming him for informing his superiors, per his duty — you should be blaming the people who made it necessary.
What this country does not need is more cowards who do evil things and then spend the rest of their lives trying to hide it.
One of us is playing Monday-morning quarterback with this guy's life — and suggesting that we should support dishonesty and law-breaking. One of us should look into that.
You would have criticized King Solomon's gambit of slicing the baby in two so as to see who the baby's real mother was.
Where is the justice in the way the whistle blower case turned out?
HIS OWN LIFE is ruined.
Yay?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Dakar²
You posted from the other accounts?
Neither confirm nor deny.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Annals of MacNN History
Status:
Offline
|
|
Neither surprised nor impressed.
By the way, why not make the poll open?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Dakar²
This is a bad thing?
They didn't deserve it?
That's why he's a hero. He sacrificed his life to do what's right.
Spare me the melodrama.
I can see where this is going. You don't object to whistle blowing because of what was handled, you object to it because you don't object to what was actually happening. Am I off?
By following my course of action ALL of the good results and NONE of the negative results would have occurred.
Argue that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Annals of MacNN History
Status:
Offline
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Dakar²
Neither surprised nor impressed.
By the way, why not make the poll open?
People don't respond honestly when they know their answers on sensitive issues will be revealed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Dakar²
Dodging my question?
I debated resuming responding to you at all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2006
Status:
Offline
|
|
I believe I already said this , but I voted "CREEP". I voted without clicking on the link and realizing what I was voting for... Weird, it usually happens only once every 4 years.
I dont see how this guy is a creep, all he did was take a CD to his superior. I wonder who leaked this info to the press, that would be the real creep.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by TheWOAT
I believe I already said this , but I voted "CREEP". I voted without clicking on the link and realizing what I was voting for... Weird, it usually happens only once every 4 years.
I dont see how this guy is a creep, all he did was take a CD to his superior. I wonder who leaked this info to the press, that would be the real creep.
Rummy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by marden
You would have criticized King Solomon's gambit of slicing the baby in two so as to see who the baby's real mother was.
Solomon didn't slice the baby in two — he threatened to split the baby in order to put pressure on the women. If he'd actually killed it, we would remember him a lot differently.
Originally Posted by marden
Where is the justice in the way the whistle blower case turned out?
HIS OWN LIFE is ruined.
Yay?
The guilty were punished. His life is not, as far as I know, ruined. He has faced negative consequences from people with the mindset you are promoting here, but that's why I said what he did took courage.
But even if things did turn out horribly and he were killed for what he did, that would not be because he is a "creep" or did anything wrong. That would be because of others' failings.
|
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Solomon didn't slice the baby in two — he threatened to split the baby in order to put pressure on the women. If he'd actually killed it, we would remember him a lot differently.
Why do I feel I have to talk like I'm conversing with grade schoolers? Yes. I know he didn't slice the baby...
Originally Posted by Chuckit
The guilty were punished. His life is not, as far as I know, ruined. He has faced negative consequences from people with the mindset you are promoting here, but that's why I said what he did took courage.
But even if things did turn out horribly and he were killed for what he did, that would not be because he is a "creep" or did anything wrong. That would be because of others' failings.
He can't continue in the Army. He had to be relocated and is living a semi-secret existence for fear of retribution. His wife got death threats. Old family acquaintances and people who have known him all his life have shunned him.
And you are so ready to allow him to become a martyr just as long as his cause was pure. Please, spare me!
How about less drama queening and just admit that he could have achieved the ALL the good and avoided ALL the bad by adopting my strategy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by marden
How about less drama queening and just admit that he could have achieved the ALL the good and avoided ALL the bad by adopting my strategy.
How about you just admit that you weren't there and this is pure conjecture? (And how would the guilty have been punished with your strategy?)
And to go off on a bit of a tangent, if we're going to blame victims, shouldn't Bush be blamed for the war failing (which you usually pin on liberals)? I mean, even if you're doing the right thing, apparently it's your fault when people oppose you and react badly.
(
Last edited by Chuckit; Dec 11, 2006 at 04:30 AM.
)
|
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Chuckit
How about you just admit that you weren't there and this is pure conjecture? (And how would the guilty have been punished with your strategy?)
And to go off on a bit of a tangent, if we're going to blame victims, shouldn't Bush be blamed for the war failing (which you usually pin on liberals)? I mean, even if you're doing the right thing, apparently it's your fault when people oppose you and react badly.
OK. I accept your surrender.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by voodoo
I say a brave and honest man.
V
I say he took the easier way out. If he'd been smart enough he would have been willing and able to transcend honesty.
Honesty left ONLY victims in this case. Doing the RIGHT thing has ruined his and several others' lives. Show me the hero who is willing to go out on a limb to do the BEST thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
And while were on the subject, let me say something about the American military.
In the past 3½ years about half a million personnel have rotated through Iraq and under the strictest and most intense media scrutiny of all time there have been only two or three of these kinds of abuses.
Show me a city of a half million people, anywhere in the world, where there were so few incidents of this type. And we aren't talking about 500,000 pot smoking, peace sign flashing, free loving hippies. These are highly trained, highly skilled, highly motivated, hard charging Americans who are armed to the teeth and who are very good at using the tools and training to deliver misguided martyrs to that "special place."
The fact is that despite the NYT's virtual celebration of the Abu Ghraib incident and one or two others, our military is the best disciplined, most humane, most decent and most capable in history.
And yet some two years later in a war that's only lasted 3 and a half, this crap is STILL the source of embarrassment to the military and the nation.
With this as the whistleblower's legacy who can truly say that his actions led to the best possible outcome?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Kevin
Then what you would be saying there is, a good percentage of the WWII vets were VERY unpatriotic.
Good luck with that.
If they tortured their prisoners, then yes, they too were unpatriotic. They lost sight of the forest while hacking away at a couple of trees. They may have been nationalists, but there is no patriotism in joining the ranks of the enemy.
It's no secret that during WWII, a lot of very shady things were done, and in quite a few cases the actions and attitudes of the Allies were only slightly better than those of the Axis. Both sides engaged in prisoner torture, both sides engaged in the deliberate bombing of civilian targets, and both sides even had their own forms of imprisonment camps for certain groups among their own people. Both sides were engaged in vigorous atomic-weapons research, and also research into far stranger things. And although the Axis still comes out looking worse in the end, in some cases it is difficult to say by how much. For every Coventry there is a Dresden, and for every Buchenwald there is a Tule Lake. Hiroshima (and Nagasaki along with it) may be the only incident that truly stands alone, and the only reason it stands alone is because the other side didn't have any will to fight left after that.
|
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by marden
And while were on the subject, let me say something about the American military.
In the past 3½ years about half a million personnel have rotated through Iraq and under the strictest and most intense media scrutiny of all time there have been only two or three of these kinds of abuses.
Show me a city of a half million people, anywhere in the world, where there were so few incidents of this type. And we aren't talking about 500,000 pot smoking, peace sign flashing, free loving hippies. These are highly trained, highly skilled, highly motivated, hard charging Americans who are armed to the teeth and who are very good at using the tools and training to deliver misguided martyrs to that "special place."
The fact is that despite the NYT's virtual celebration of the Abu Ghraib incident and one or two others, our military is the best disciplined, most humane, most decent and most capable in history.
And yet some two years later in a war that's only lasted 3 and a half, this crap is STILL the source of embarrassment to the military and the nation.
Unlike many here, I don't level my accusations at the entire US military. I still place the blame on the people responsible for it: namely, the perpetrators. That doesn't mean they aren't betraying the principles this country stands for, however, and it certainly doesn't mean they shouldn't be exposed and punished when they are found. While the media hype is certainly misdirected -trying to pin the actions of a few onto the entire military- that doesn't mean that the basic revulsion at what happened is somehow inappropriate.
|
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In yer threads
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Millennium
If they tortured their prisoners, then yes, they too were unpatriotic. They lost sight of the forest while hacking away at a couple of trees. They may have been nationalists, but there is no patriotism in joining the ranks of the enemy.
It's no secret that during WWII, a lot of very shady things were done, and in quite a few cases the actions and attitudes of the Allies were only slightly better than those of the Axis. Both sides engaged in prisoner torture, both sides engaged in the deliberate bombing of civilian targets, and both sides even had their own forms of imprisonment camps for certain groups among their own people. Both sides were engaged in vigorous atomic-weapons research, and also research into far stranger things. And although the Axis still comes out looking worse in the end, in some cases it is difficult to say by how much. For every Coventry there is a Dresden, and for every Buchenwald there is a Tule Lake. Hiroshima (and Nagasaki along with it) may be the only incident that truly stands alone, and the only reason it stands alone is because the other side didn't have any will to fight left after that.
Thus is war. It's not politically correct. The only side that wins in a politically correct war is the side that doesn't care, or doesn't get held accountable for their un-PC actions.
A politically correct war can only be fought when both sides agree to the rules.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by marden
How about less drama queening and just admit that he could have achieved the ALL the good and avoided ALL the bad by adopting my strategy.
Under your "strategy", the people who committed these heinous crimes wouldn't have been punished; they wouldn't have gone to jail. Not the same. Justice demands that people are punished for their crimes. So, under your "strategy", justice would have been thwarted. That would have made this guy a conspirator and a criminal himself. Some people have morals, Marden. Boys' clubs are for immature children. Grown men stand up for what they believe in and they do what's right.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In yer threads
Status:
Offline
|
|
I say the only mistake was getting the media in on it. I think they need to be held responsible for their hyperbolic actions as well. Almost like screaming fire in a crowded theatre.
That and I'd love to see just one single person in here be as upset at the UN atrocities that have been happening before this war and are still going on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Millennium
If they tortured their prisoners, then yes, they too were unpatriotic. They lost sight of the forest while hacking away at a couple of trees. They may have been nationalists, but there is no patriotism in joining the ranks of the enemy.
It's no secret that during WWII, a lot of very shady things were done, and in quite a few cases the actions and attitudes of the Allies were only slightly better than those of the Axis. Both sides engaged in prisoner torture, both sides engaged in the deliberate bombing of civilian targets, and both sides even had their own forms of imprisonment camps for certain groups among their own people. Both sides were engaged in vigorous atomic-weapons research, and also research into far stranger things. And although the Axis still comes out looking worse in the end, in some cases it is difficult to say by how much. For every Coventry there is a Dresden, and for every Buchenwald there is a Tule Lake. Hiroshima (and Nagasaki along with it) may be the only incident that truly stands alone, and the only reason it stands alone is because the other side didn't have any will to fight left after that.
What is your position on the theory of immaculate warfare?
Here's Ralph Peters':
Under the right battlefield conditions, sophisticated military technologies give Western powers remarkable advantages. Under the wrong conditions and employed with unreasonable expectations, high-tech weapons inflict more damage on our own political leaders and national purpose than they do on the enemy.
Precision-targeting systems and other superweapons are dangerously seductive to civilian leaders looking for military wins on the cheap. Exaggerated promises about capabilities — made by contractors, lobbyists and bedazzled generals — delude presidents and prime ministers into believing that war can be swift and immaculate, with minimal friendly or even enemy casualties.
It's a lethal myth. The siren song oftechno-wars fought at standoff range makes military solutions more attractive to political leaders than would be the case were they warned about war's costs at the outset. Inevitably, the "easy" wars don't work out as planned. Requiring boots on the ground after all, they prove exorbitant in blood, treasure, time and moral capital.
[...]
There will be no "bloodless wars" in our lifetimes. In the words of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a brilliant Civil War soldier and wicked man, "War means fighting, and fighting means killing." In an age of fanaticism and terror, confronted by enemies who see death as a promotion, we will not be able to find easy, sterile solutions to our security problems.
The promises made for advanced military technologies are all too seductive to political leaders with no experience in uniform. Hype kills. Until we abandon the myth of immaculate wars, our conflicts will continue to prove far more costly than the technology advocates promise.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...are-edit_x.htm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Kevin
Thus is war. It's not politically correct. The only side that wins in a politically correct war is the side that doesn't care, or doesn't get held accountable for their un-PC actions.
A politically correct war can only be fought when both sides agree to the rules.
I continually find myself addressing topics and posts and then when I get to your post I see we have said roughly the exact same thing on the subject!
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...are-edit_x.htm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Troll
Under your "strategy", the people who committed these heinous crimes wouldn't have been punished; they wouldn't have gone to jail. Not the same. Justice demands that people are punished for their crimes. So, under your "strategy", justice would have been thwarted. That would have made this guy a conspirator and a criminal himself. Some people have morals, Marden. Boys' clubs are for immature children. Grown men stand up for what they believe in and they do what's right.
You think it would be EASY to try to take control of the situation as I outlined?
There are millions of cases where people commit heinous crimes and are not punished.
I am not saying these perpetrators did not DESERVE punishment. I am saying that a HIGHER level of justice would have been achieved if our enemies had not had this weapon to use against us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baninated
Join Date: Sep 2005
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Kevin
I say the only mistake was getting the media in on it. I think they need to be held responsible for their hyperbolic actions as well. Almost like screaming fire in a crowded theatre.
That and I'd love to see just one single person in here be as upset at the UN atrocities that have been happening before this war and are still going on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Rules
|
|
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|