[stevesnj]

With all the happenings of our fuel cost issues in the US and Europe I was wondering if you would buy and electric (not hybrid ) vehicle?

Even though electric vehicles (EV) like the Tesla is way out of my price range ($90,000+), cheaper EV's are on the way in 2-3 years. Or would you spend the $18,000 to $25,000 to convert your current small vehicle?

[Andy8]

I would buy a small plug in electric car once they are readily available.

[Teronzhul]

I want an electric motorcycle.

[wallinbl]

I haven't seen good numbers on cost per mile for gas vs electric. I pay more each month for electricity than I do for gasoline.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Teronzhul 

I want an electric motorcycle.

funny you say that. I am mentoring a few students from our electric car club to build an ev motorcycle!! I'm a motorcycle rider so this is going to be very fun!!

[imitchellg5]

Nope. Internal combustion FTW. I'll go diesel, and maybe diesel electric hybrid. But oil prices have to get a lot worse before I go electric.

[JoshuaZ]

Sure, I'd buy one. Once the technology is proven and affordable. Most people can not afford a brand new $25,000 car or a massive upgrade to their current car.

Until then I'll ride my zero emission bike and public transport.

[nonhuman]

Absolutely. I'm hoping that our next car will be an electric. We probably wouldn't be buying a new car for nearly 5 years or so unless something goes wrong with our '06 Mazda that's not covered under the extended warranty we got, so I'm guessing it won't be a big stretch. I'm also interested in converting an ICE to electric, but that's probably not going to happen unless we suddenly become independently wealthy and move to the country in the near future...

[Shaddim]

I'd consider one if it could outperform my current vehicle.

Which means, "no, I probably wouldn't buy one". However, there is an exception. If I could get my hands on a new Tesla roadster... hmm...

See, the thing is, I love the sound my car's engine makes, it's just so damned pleasing.

[Laminar]

I agree with that - I think it'd be weird not to hear an engine roar as the speedometer climbs.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Nope. Internal combustion FTW. I'll go diesel, and maybe diesel electric hybrid. But oil prices have to get a lot worse before I go electric.

Well an EV costs 2-3 cents per mile to run...a ICE engine diesel or petrol costs 5-6 per mile to run. The weak link is the batteries. they need replacing (Lead Acid type) every 25,000 miles. Lithium IOn batteries somewhat longer. We just need a batterypak to go 100k plus miles and that would be great!!

[nonhuman]

MIT has recently revealed that they've already developed super efficient nano-technology batteries. So I think the battery limitation is probably going to fall by the wayside pretty soon. Also check out Shai Agassi's company Better Place that's planning on rolling out an entire electric car infrastructure that's designed to bypass the battery issue as well.

[reader50]

stevesnj, your gasoline cost per mile is unrealistic - it assumes a car getting 60 MPG, with gasoline at $3.60 per gallon. Most cars get far less than 60 MPG, and I'd assume $4 - $5 per gallon in the future.

MPG -- cost per mile @ $4 / gallon -- $5 / gallon
20 -- 20 cents -- 25 cents
25 -- 16 cents -- 20 cents
30 -- 13 cents -- 17 cents
35 -- 11 cents -- 14 cents
40 -- 10 cents -- 13 cents
50 -- 8 cents -- 10 cents
60 -- 7 cents -- 8 cents
70 -- 6 cents -- 7 cents
80 -- 5 cents -- 6 cents

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

Well an EV costs 2-3 cents per mile to run...a ICE engine diesel or petrol costs 5-6 per mile to run. The weak link is the batteries. they need replacing (Lead Acid type) every 25,000 miles. Lithium IOn batteries somewhat longer. We just need a batterypak to go 100k plus miles and that would be great!!

With Li-ion batteries, you have a limited number of charge-discharge cycles (and partial charge-discharge cycles count partially, as in laptops batteries). A 100k-rated battery can be built today, but it would be 4 times as big and heavy as a 25k-rated battery. On the other hand, a battery that lasts 25k miles in a Ford Expedition, will last 100k miles is a car that takes 1/4 the power to operate (a Mazda Miata for example).

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by reader50 

stevesnj, your gasoline cost per mile is unrealistic - it assumes a car getting 60 MPG, with gasoline at $3.60 per gallon. Most cars get far less than 60 MPG, and I'd assume $4 - $5 per gallon in the future.

MPG -- cost per mile @ $4 / gallon -- $5 / gallon
20 -- 20 cents -- 25 cents
25 -- 16 cents -- 20 cents
30 -- 13 cents -- 17 cents
35 -- 11 cents -- 14 cents
40 -- 10 cents -- 13 cents
50 -- 8 cents -- 10 cents
60 -- 7 cents -- 8 cents
70 -- 6 cents -- 7 cents
80 -- 5 cents -- 6 cents

Thanks...that makes an EV even more appealing. I just need a 55 mile range and im good for a day!

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

Well an EV costs 2-3 cents per mile to run...a ICE engine diesel or petrol costs 5-6 per mile to run. The weak link is the batteries. they need replacing (Lead Acid type) every 25,000 miles. Lithium IOn batteries somewhat longer. We just need a batterypak to go 100k plus miles and that would be great!!

Sorry. For me to have an electric car it would have to 1) perform like a proper car 2) sound like a proper car 3) offer a proper gearbox 4) have a 350-400 mile range, even under a lead foot. A Tesla can theoretically go 300 miles, but when driven in a spirited manner, it barely gets 150 miles in per charge. Also, I want all major cities to offer plugins everywhere so I can charge while I'm at dinner. I won't accommodate an electric car, so it has to accommodate me.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Sorry. For me to have an electric car it would have to 1) perform like a proper car 2) sound like a proper car 3) offer a proper gearbox 4) have a 350-400 mile range, even under a lead foot. A Tesla can theoretically go 300 miles, but when driven in a spirited manner, it barely gets 150 miles in per charge. Also, I want all major cities to offer plugins everywhere so I can charge while I'm at dinner. I won't accommodate an electric car, so it has to accommodate me.

Well me too...I know this will not happen within the next few years but...for some its a good start

[zykron]

No, I'll wait until multifuel-compatible cars come out (or at least wait for hydrocarbon-boron compounds). One kind of fuel for cold weather (ethanol fails here), one kind of fuel for burning hot summers, and you get the idea. I can't imagine taking more than 4 minutes to "fill up" a car, because I'm too much of an impatient priss.

[BadKosh]

My electric car is an Associated RC12i.

[PB2K]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I agree with that - I think it'd be weird not to hear an engine roar as the speedometer climbs.

We'll love to tell our grandchildren about how we drove cars with combustion engines

Suddenly my bikeshop sells a wide range of electric bicycles, they look light enough, they seem to have made progress in that field though I can't help to see them as oddities. Electricity is quite expensive here and I only buy 2nd hand cars so electric cars will probably not be mine for the next 10 years

[nikstar101]

No. Simply because if you take the the whole process of powering and building an electric car, from what i have read/heard it is more environmentally damaging that your standard petrol car (at least in the EU).

Firstly how are you going to charge your electric car. From the national grid. A large proportion of eletricity is produced my fossil fuels. So you get the pollution caused by burning more fossil fuels (to generate electricity). But let me guess the power station isn't located outside our house!! Therefore you get transmition losses as the electricity passes through the grid. So your still burning fossil fuels and your doining ineffiecently.

Secondly, Top Gear recently calculated that the production of most hybird cars is actually more damaging to the environment that petrol cars, due to the battery production. Then since they are made in Asia (mostly) the shipping carbon foot print is rather high.

So although getting one to save money on fuel costs seems a good idea, what is likely to happen is that if loads of people started to go this, electric companies would just put up the price of electricity.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

My electric car is an Associated RC12i.

I have an Associated RC12L4, as well as a couple CRC cars. One is a Bloody Knife.

I also have about a dozen other electric cars.

[Railroader]

I voted "yes", but that's not entirely accurate. I hope EV cars don't act like modern gasoline cars. Also, battery technology is a long way off. I am not sure which is worse, the mining that is going to occur concerning battery materials or oil drilling.

When clean electric energy can be produced cheaply, and batteries are safe in regards to mining and disposal, then everything will change.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by nikstar101 

Secondly, Top Gear recently calculated that the production of most hybird cars is actually more damaging to the environment that petrol cars, due to the battery production. Then since they are made in Asia (mostly) the shipping carbon foot print is rather high.

If you're relying on Top Gear for accurate news reporting then you might as well rely on the Daily Mail. I am not saying that electric cars are without problems, but I'd go and find more reliable sources for my information.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I'd consider one if it could outperform my current vehicle.

Which means, "no, I probably wouldn't buy one". However, there is an exception. If I could get my hands on a new Tesla roadster... hmm...

See, the thing is, I love the sound my car's engine makes, it's just so damned pleasing.

I agree with the sound being better, but, how much is that sound worth? If any refineries in the Gulf get damaged this hurricane season, I'm sure it'll give the gasoline distributers an excuse to permanently jump the cost of gas another 20%. At what point does a nice sounding engine cease to be worth the cost?

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

See, the thing is, I love the sound my car's engine makes, it's just so damned pleasing.

My last car would adjust the stereo volume according to engine and road noise. Seems like a simple improvement to fake a V8 through the stereo based on how you're driving.

I would bet that if you were driving an electric car that had good performance, you'd pretty quickly become enamored with the stealthiness of it.

[Wiskedjak]

For my part, I have no loyalty to gasoline. As soon as a better and more affordable product emerges, then I'll buy it instead.

[nikstar101]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

If you're relying on Top Gear for accurate news reporting then you might as well rely on the Daily Mail. I am not saying that electric cars are without problems, but I'd go and find more reliable sources for my information.

True, but it was a serious item that they were discussing also i remember that being mentioned elsewhere but Top Gear was the most recent.

Even so it still doesn't make a flawless environmental argument. It just off-sets the polution.

So i still think that the argument is solid, unless governments increases their renewable energy production massively.

[moep]

I would buy one in a heartbeat if the performance is right. Cars like the Tesla are just a little glimpse of what electric powered cars can do in the future. Full torque from zero rpm? yes please.

As for the people not wanting to buy an electric car exclusively because they would miss the sound of their combustion engine — wow, are you serious?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

I would bet that if you were driving an electric car that had good performance, you'd pretty quickly become enamored with the stealthiness of it.

Every road-test of the Tesla I've seen says the same thing.

A high-performance vehicle that is also very quiet sounds so cool it hurts.

greg

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I agree with the sound being better, but, how much is that sound worth? If any refineries in the Gulf get damaged this hurricane season, I'm sure it'll give the gasoline distributers an excuse to permanently jump the cost of gas another 20%. At what point does a nice sounding engine cease to be worth the cost?

It's not just sound, but an electric motor will never stir the soul like BMW's 4 liter V8 in the M3 at 8,300 rpm. How exciting would an electric F1 race be? A Carrera GT without 10 cylinders of F1 fury? Would you trade in a 5.4L GT500's power and soundtrack and transmission for an electric motor and no gears? I sure wouldn't. Like I said, the electric car will have to either match or go beyond capabilities of modern cars for me to fall in love.

[Cold Warrior]

I'd buy one as a second vehicle for scooting around town and to work (I only have to drive 6 miles to work), but only if the total cost -- including maintenance, registration, taxes, and battery replacement -- offset the cost of using a gasoline vehicle.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by nikstar101 

No. Simply because if you take the the whole process of powering and building an electric car, from what i have read/heard it is more environmentally damaging that your standard petrol car (at least in the EU).

Firstly how are you going to charge your electric car. From the national grid. A large proportion of eletricity is produced my fossil fuels. So you get the pollution caused by burning more fossil fuels (to generate electricity). But let me guess the power station isn't located outside our house!! Therefore you get transmition losses as the electricity passes through the grid. So your still burning fossil fuels and your doining ineffiecently.

Secondly, Top Gear recently calculated that the production of most hybird cars is actually more damaging to the environment that petrol cars, due to the battery production. Then since they are made in Asia (mostly) the shipping carbon foot print is rather high.

So although getting one to save money on fuel costs seems a good idea, what is likely to happen is that if loads of people started to go this, electric companies would just put up the price of electricity.

You should compare the top gear article to this one just for some balance http://www.noisettefamily.com/2007/0...vs-prius-myth/

[Doofy]

There's another problem with sound on these things.

I know of several people who don't bother to look when they're crossing the road - they just rely on their ears hearing approaching traffic. And they think they're quite clever for managing it.

Given that the law (here, at least) tends to place all blame on the driver no matter how stupid the pedestrian, I'd love to see the outcome of EV vs moron pedestrian in court.

[slpdLoad]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

Or would you spend the $18,000 to $25,000 to convert your current small vehicle?

More like $5,000 to $10,000, and you can do it with less if you try.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by nikstar101 

Secondly, Top Gear recently calculated that the production of most hybird cars is actually more damaging to the environment that petrol cars, due to the battery production. Then since they are made in Asia (mostly) the shipping carbon foot print is rather high.

This is very true. Of course, as production ramps up, many of those manufacturing plants would start to move closer to their eventual destinations. Right now, they're just testing the market, so it makes sense to use existing manufacturing facilities rather that build new ones.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

There's another problem with sound on these things.

I know of several people who don't bother to look when they're crossing the road - they just rely on their ears hearing approaching traffic. And they think they're quite clever for managing it.

In that example, I don't think the problem is with the sound of the vehicle.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

If you're relying on Top Gear for accurate news reporting then you might as well rely on the Daily Mail. I am not saying that electric cars are without problems, but I'd go and find more reliable sources for my information.

Hehehe... While I watch many Top Gear episodes, I have to agree with you. It's more an entertainment format with cars than a real car know-how platform. Especially stupid is their CONSTANT reference to Nazism / World War / German platitudes when "testing" a German car. I always wonder, how great and successful the British car makers must be in comparison?!

Regards
PB.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Especially stupid is their CONSTANT reference to Nazism / World War / German platitudes when "testing" a German car. I always wonder, how great and successful the British car makers must be in comparison?!

Zis is called "humour". Ve vill export some of it to you sometime.
The fact that our cars are shite and yours are pretty decent is part of the Top Gear German-related humour.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

There's another problem with sound on these things.

I know of several people who don't bother to look when they're crossing the road - they just rely on their ears hearing approaching traffic. And they think they're quite clever for managing it.

Given that the law (here, at least) tends to place all blame on the driver no matter how stupid the pedestrian, I'd love to see the outcome of EV vs moron pedestrian in court.

If it makes you feel better and restores your faith in mankind I have a friend who hit a pedestrian that wasn't in a crosswalk. The pedestrian sued, he countersued and won.

[stevesnj]

Some good news here... a top Li-On battery maker says it may cut its battery prices in half!!

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-G...080829?sp=true

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Zis is called "humour". Ve vill export some of it to you sometime.

No thanks (In fact, that's just another British platitude). German humor might not be hippest or funniest, but at least it evolves.

Regards
PB.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

No thanks (In fact, that's just another British platitude). German humor might not be hippest or funniest, but at least it evolves.

So why all y'all sitting there watching Blackadder and Benny Hill then?

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So why all y'all sitting there watching Blackadder and Benny Hill then?

To be honest, those are good classics, but not _that_ popular here. Most people here have never heard of Benny Hill. I'd say "Mr. Bean" had about thousand times more of the audience.

Regards
PB.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

There's another problem with sound on these things.

I know of several people who don't bother to look when they're crossing the road - they just rely on their ears hearing approaching traffic. And they think they're quite clever for managing it.

Given that the law (here, at least) tends to place all blame on the driver no matter how stupid the pedestrian, I'd love to see the outcome of EV vs moron pedestrian in court.

That seems like an entirely silly argument. Half the developed world now seems to operate with their iPod headphones on, but I don't know that I've noticed an epidemic of music-lovers being unexpectedly run over because they couldn't "hear" the offending vehicle.

Humans are pretty adaptable. If you think we won't be able to figure out we need to look first before crossing the street, then you're got a pathetic view of our capabilities.

greg

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

That seems like an entirely silly argument.

It's not an argument, it's an observation. Why does everything in this place have to be a fsking argument?

[stevesnj]

This Forum is notorious for getting off topic! uuugghhh

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by nikstar101 

True, but it was a serious item that they were discussing also i remember that being mentioned elsewhere but Top Gear was the most recent.

How about the time that they raced a Prius and a BMW around a track and saw the BMW get better gas mileage, leading them to the conclusion that the "Pry-us" is a terrible car? That was serious as well. It's entertainment, and nothing more.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's not an argument, it's an observation. Why does everything in this place have to be a fsking argument?

Did I piss in your Wheaties?

*zips up*

[nikstar101]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

You should compare the top gear article to this one just for some balance http://www.noisettefamily.com/2007/0...vs-prius-myth/

Its not a bad article but it seems to be as opinionated as Top Gear

My problem isn't specifically with Electric Cars but with the way they are marketed and discussed by "eco-friendly" people. They are generally explained to the public (by the media and the like) as energy saving, environmental friendly or reducing your carbon footprint.

But they are only a solution to a symptom not a solution to the problem. As dicussed they are just using power form a different means (which in most cases still comes from fossil fuels). And if the world suddenly converted all their cars to electric they would cripple the national grid, require new power stations to be built and you can bet the electric companies would increase prices to make a health profit (as they now know users HAVE to buy electricity to be mobile). You are now a captured market, as with fuel you can drive to a different petrol station, with buying your electricity it is not that simple.

If you really want a cheap to run car, buy a small diesal that can do 77mpg.

Electricity maybe the future, but it requires a lot of investiment in supporting technologies such as power generation/infrastructure. I think that Hydrogen or extremely efficient combustion engines will outstrip electric battery cars.