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Charlottesville, Nazis, Antifa, Confederate Statues, and Tea Cozies
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The Final Dakar
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Aug 12, 2017, 03:31 PM
 
Lazy OP. I didn't know this was coming. I literally woke up today to a bunch of tweets in my timeline about white nationalists marching on a town because some statues were taken down. By the end of my timeline Trump condemned their actions, but I don't actually know what they did.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 12, 2017, 04:18 PM
 
Why are things like this happening? Well, they don't occur within a vacuum. This was in a recent Guardian cartoon:



https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...r-to-your-kids

Stuff like that is becoming more common within the media, and it will get worse as it spreads and agitators on both sides ramp up for a race war.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 12, 2017, 04:28 PM
 
As I understand it, Charlottesville started as a licensed protest over historical statues being removed, but then Antifa showed up and the violence began, then it became worse as actual white supremacists (real nazis) within the protestors started using Antifa members' heads as pinatas. It seems the person who was run over was a victim of someone driving away in a panic.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 12, 2017, 06:35 PM
 
It appears the driver of the car that killed the anti-protester at the demonstration was also a member of the anti-protest. IOW, a left-wing protester (presumably a part of Antifa) killed another left-wing protester.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 12, 2017, 06:37 PM
 
Trump blamed all sides; I take back any respect for him tweeting about it. Lots of GOP politicians condemning white nationalists. Not our president.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 12, 2017, 07:17 PM
 
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 12, 2017, 09:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It appears the driver of the car that killed the anti-protester at the demonstration was also a member of the anti-protest. IOW, a left-wing protester (presumably a part of Antifa) killed another left-wing protester.
Where are you getting that? I can't find anywhere that gives any more detail than the driver being "a man".
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 12, 2017, 10:25 PM
 


I stand with Tim Pool, **** all identitarians and violent protesters.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 13, 2017, 02:47 AM
 


20-****ing-17
     
Paco500
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Aug 13, 2017, 04:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Where are you getting that? I can't find anywhere that gives any more detail than the driver being "a man".
He's not getting it anywhere except from his echo chamber/wishful thinking that suits his narrative.
     
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Aug 13, 2017, 06:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
He's not getting it anywhere except from his echo chamber/wishful thinking that suits his narrative.
Exactly. It's interesting that the right accuses the left of identity politics, when trump calls out Mexicans and Muslims as the problem.

The man arrested (although I really shouldn't call him a man) is hardly a decent human being and appears to identify with what should be called Nazis.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/claudiakoer...K5Z#.nxwgPorMZ
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BadKosh
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Aug 13, 2017, 08:39 AM
 
Most of the violence was bused in from out of town. Guy from Ohio was the driver who plowed into the crowd. 2 State cops were killed when their helicopter crashed. I wish it had been raining hard all through the day in Charlottesville. probably have less folks beating on each other. Assholes! It's ONE damn statue, that was to be moved to private property. For ONCE, Gov. Terry McAwful had a good suggestion : Stay away from Charlottesville.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 13, 2017, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
He's not getting it anywhere except from his echo chamber/wishful thinking that suits his narrative.
Yeah, thats what I figured. I figured he'd be wrong too.

As per usual CTP is doing exactly what Trump has done and blamed both sides in a feeble attempt to sound reasonable. Its shameful really.
Violent or not these incidents wouldn't happen if people didn't hold shitty views and act like assholes towards others as a result.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
BadKosh
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Aug 13, 2017, 09:02 AM
 
Go Ask George Soros how much he paid the violent protestors per hour. How much the bus tickets were etc.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 13, 2017, 10:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
He's not getting it anywhere except from his echo chamber/wishful thinking that suits his narrative.
There was no violence until Antifa arrived and attacked the group that had a permit to demonstrate. There's a fact for you. I don't agree with Unite the Right, but they have the right to assemble. Even the ACLU fought for their right, and that's why their permit was upheld in federal court, after the city tried to deny them.
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Aug 13, 2017, 11:04 AM
 
From the NY Times reporter on the scene in Charlottesville:

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but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 13, 2017, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Most of the violence was bused in from out of town. Guy from Ohio was the driver who plowed into the crowd. 2 State cops were killed when their helicopter crashed. I wish it had been raining hard all through the day in Charlottesville. probably have less folks beating on each other. Assholes! It's ONE damn statue, that was to be moved to private property. For ONCE, Gov. Terry McAwful had a good suggestion : Stay away from Charlottesville.
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Go Ask George Soros how much he paid the violent protestors per hour. How much the bus tickets were etc.
...are you blaming Soros for Charlottesville?
     
besson3c
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Aug 13, 2017, 12:29 PM
 
Maybe instead of being hyperfocused on Islamic terrorism and demanding that we attach the word "Islamic" to it we should just focus on all forms of terrorism, focusing more on our own domestic terrorists?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 13, 2017, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe instead of being hyperfocused on Islamic terrorism and demanding that we attach the word "Islamic" to it we should just focus on all forms of terrorism, focusing more on our own domestic terrorists?
I gotta admit, their reticence makes me yearn to hear them say "white nationalism."
     
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Aug 13, 2017, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe instead of being hyperfocused on Islamic terrorism and demanding that we attach the word "Islamic" to it we should just focus on all forms of terrorism, focusing more on our own domestic terrorists?
I agree.

Edit: Though I doubt Islamic terrorism will stay overseas. (ex. 9/11)
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Aug 13, 2017, 01:22 PM
 
The guy in the car should absolutely be facing terrorism charges. Its highly likely he took his inspiration from the spate of similar ISIS attacks in Europe.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c
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Aug 13, 2017, 01:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I agree.

Edit: Though I doubt Islamic terrorism will stay overseas. (ex. 9/11)

I'm actually pleasantly surprised to hear you say this.

I thought you were really advocating for shining a bright light on Islamic terrorism, calling it out for what it is, and thereby sort of trying to separate Muslims from the rest of the population putting them on notice this way. Identity politics, maybe?

I don't know if you'd also agree with this, but this is the way I feel...

America is a pretty ****ed up place, in many ways. There is pretty deep-seated racism, and extremism that comes in many forms. We see this on a pretty regular basis whether it is unorganized and unplanned events such as police abuse of blacks, or planned and organized events like Charlottesville.

If we just call out one flavor of it, say Islamic terrorism, we are just acknowledging their level of organization. I think all forms of violent demonstrations need to be called out, whether this is bombing an abortion clinic, abusing gays physically (or even verbally). "Terrorism" is just a word we give to the most severe and brutal forms of this, but it all comes from essentially the same place of hatred. It's a degree of hatred, but we need to be more focused on the root causes of this hatred.

Sometimes our politics or ideologies prevent us from doing the right thing too. If you have crossed the line from disagreeing with somebody to acting on hate - even if this is just spitting in their face or something, this is just not cool and it needs to be called out whether or not you agree with the underlying ideology.

But we can't just try to classify and segment terrorism by saying "oh, that's Islamic", and "oh, that's black" inferring that this is a problem unique to this specific segment. Hate is hate, it comes in many forms but is just apparent to various extents depending on the level of organization. In Charlottesville if it is true that they bussed in people, this means that the hate came from all over the place. It just manifested because there were busses and enough inspiration and motivation to get people to a central location.

I actually think it would be a healthy exercise for us to call out hate and racism among our own political parties and/or groups we associate ourselves with. For example, if you are a Republican, you ought to say that this stuff about Obama being a Muslim (with inference that this would be a bad thing) and not born in this country (with inference that he is not a real American) that Trump stimulated all those years ago was wrong, full stop. It was obviously not severe as the bribe happening in Charlottesville, but it comes from the same basic place as what we are seeing now in Charlottesville. And CTP, I'm not picking this particular example because I'm trying to attack you, I don't remember where you stood on this issue in particular, it is just a somewhat random example that popped into my head.

CTP, since you've been calling out hate lately I hope you'll become a regular opponent to hate of all kinds, not just the kinds that hit you closest to home. I'll be your sidekick, and I'll even let you wear a cape.
     
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Aug 13, 2017, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post

CTP, since you've been calling out hate lately I hope you'll become a regular opponent to hate of all kinds, not just the kinds that hit you closest to home. I'll be your sidekick, and I'll even let you wear a cape.
Thats the language he uses but it isn't what he does. He calls out hate on the part of those opposing hate. Its deflection and its completely wrong-headed in every way. It sounds more reasonable and fair and intelligent than most of the dumb shits actually perpetrating the real hate, but what he does is support them under the false guise of protecting their rights. We know its false because he doesn't do it the other way around, its totally one sided and its always on the side of the right wing. If we're lucky we get a token line about defending their right to say whatever before going straight back to defending the bad guys.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 13, 2017, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
...are you blaming Soros for Charlottesville?
It smells like a Soros operation. Virginia is MY state. I am a a states right guy, kind of like pre-civil war. The era has been re-written by the PC folks but for us who read 1840's era local newspapers for the historical info we KNOW what the real deal was. Until you actually know what the attitudes of pre-civil war folks were, states right and all you are believing PC bulshit. You actually need to read local newspapers BEFORE the civil war to get it.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 13, 2017, 06:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
It smells like a Soros operation. Virginia is MY state. I am a a states right guy, kind of like pre-civil war. The era has been re-written by the PC folks but for us who read 1840's era local newspapers for the historical info we KNOW what the real deal was. Until you actually know what the attitudes of pre-civil war folks were, states right and all you are believing PC bulshit. You actually need to read local newspapers BEFORE the civil war to get it.
You think Soros bussed in Neo-Nazis?
     
besson3c
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Aug 13, 2017, 07:00 PM
 
Maybe the neo-nazis are the same guys that tainted all of the global warming research?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 13, 2017, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post


20-****ing-17
This was right next to the police station. Where were the cops?
     
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Aug 14, 2017, 12:58 AM
 
There were two violent groups in Charlotte.

Neither side has a justification for any of this. We cannot rationalize this violence. We cannot allow the extremists on either side to drive the discussion.

I thought I might find solace in this thread, but unfortunately all i see is blame and rationalization. :/
     
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Aug 14, 2017, 09:13 AM
 
One group could have chosen to hold a local, peaceful protest about not getting rid of a statue they like but instead they chose to summon angry, hate groups from as many states as possible and march around with torches like a lynch mob protesting against non-existant white oppression which is in itself and act of championing actual non-white oppression, at least the way they choose to do it with confederate flags and swastikas.
The other group turned up because such a show of hate should never go un answered in a modern developed country. One side hates the other, as well as many millions of their fellow Americans the other side hates that they try to influence politics and policy based on these irrational feelings of hate. When you put so much hate in one place, violence is inevitable.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 14, 2017, 10:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
There were two violent groups in Charlotte.

Neither side has a justification for any of this. We cannot rationalize this violence. We cannot allow the extremists on either side to drive the discussion.

I thought I might find solace in this thread, but unfortunately all i see is blame and rationalization. :/
I thought maybe we could get a "white nationalists have no place in this country" instead of this "both sides" shit, but alas, you're echoing Trump on this one.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 14, 2017, 10:40 AM
 
Trump had now responded more quickly and used harsher language to denounce a CEO leaving his Council than white nationalists in Charlottesville



It really says it all.
     
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Aug 14, 2017, 11:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I thought maybe we could get a "white nationalists have no place in this country" instead of this "both sides" shit, but alas, you're echoing Trump on this one.
Violent identitarianism, no matter its source, has no place in this country. Period.
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Aug 14, 2017, 11:27 AM
 
I'm trying to find the video mentioned on the Patrick Madrid show this morning. He said the antifa protesters started pummeling the Charger with baseball bats. Peaceful counter protesting includes bringing baseball bats?
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besson3c
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Aug 14, 2017, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Violent identitarianism, no matter its source, has no place in this country. Period.

Would you say you've had a change of heart here? It's cool if so, nothing wrong with change, I'm just wondering if I'm reading this right...
     
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Aug 14, 2017, 11:48 AM
 
As shitty as the alt-Right and White Nationalists are, they were peaceful until Antifa started pummeling them, spraying them with mace, and hurling piss-filled balloons. Everyone has the right to peaceably assemble and protest, even the ACLU backed "Unite the Right", and Antifa had no right to interfere, much less assault them. If they'd simply shown up and made their presence known, demonstrating their right disagree with the alt-Right, that would have been respectable. I would even agree and possibly stand with them, but they didn't. They once again showed that they aren't worthy of the liberty they have. Soon, hopefully, the feds will identify them as the domestic terror group they are.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Aug 14, 2017, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I thought maybe we could get a "white nationalists have no place in this country" instead of this "both sides" shit, but alas, you're echoing Trump on this one.
Just a reminder, after that Bernie Sanders volunteer shot Republican congressman Steve Scalise, Democratic leadership blamed BOTH SIDES, too.
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Aug 14, 2017, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
There were two violent groups in Charlotte.

Neither side has a justification for any of this. We cannot rationalize this violence. We cannot allow the extremists on either side to drive the discussion.


The classic "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" mentality would go a long way to cleaning up the sloppy arguments that I've heard from both sides during the past decade.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I thought maybe we could get a "white nationalists have no place in this country" instead of this "both sides" shit, but alas, you're echoing Trump on this one.
I agree with your contempt, but are you advocating unified shaming and continued social isolation for them or actual legal ramifications for publicly gathering?

To be clear, white nationalists are wrong, and I am 100% in favor of local businesses refusing their service. The "they have no place in this country" argument sounds great when it's used against people that 99% of the country find contemptible, but what about when it's a group that makes up a far greater segment of the population? Who decides what thought legally beyond the pale?

Also, Antifa is just as much of a terrorist organization as neo-Nazis groups, and their preferred tactics are barely human. From Page 4 of this letter to Portland's mayor from their chief of police:

The decision to move the group located in Chapman Square was made after PPB had repeatedly observed objects being thrown and shot from slingshot type devices from Chapman Square into Terry Shrunk Plaza. These objects included urine and feces filled balloons, balloons with unknown chemicals, marbles, bricks and rocks (see attached photos). Police observed people in Chapman Square climbing atop the brick restroom structure at the south end of the park, with bricks. PPB knew that objects were already being thrown and slung and that bricks were being prepared to be thrown. This presented an imminent risk of serious physical injury to members of the public and officers.
     
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Aug 14, 2017, 02:17 PM
 
I for one do not find it surprising that a POTUS who 1) started his political career by peddling racist "birther" theories, 2) pandered to white racial resentment as a political strategy, and 3) throughout his campaign has been most reluctant to directly denounce the "alt-right" and "white supremacists" in his political base once again did #3 in response to the racist violence in Charlottesville. Only after 2 days of blistering criticism for his "many sides" statement did he finally issue this statement. Personally, I find it completely disingenuous considering the fact that he had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming.

President Trump and Charlottesville: Live updates | CNN.com

Let’s discard the fiction that President Trump wasn’t placating white supremacists by responding so weakly to the neo-Nazi violence that killed Heather Heyer, a 32-year-old counterdemonstrator in Charlottesville, Va., on Saturday. The neo-Nazis heard his message loud and clear.

“He didn’t attack us,” crowed The Daily Stormer, a white supremacist website, about Mr. Trump’s statement after the two days of racist demonstrations. “Refused to answer a question about White Nationalists supporting him. No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.”

The police said a 20-year-old man, who participated in the long-planned protest against the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee, plowed his car into peaceful counterdemonstrators on Saturday, killing Ms. Heyer and injuring 19 others. He was charged with second-degree murder. Two Virginia state troopers responding to the protests died in a helicopter crash.

After the attack, and before he spoke, Mr. Trump reportedly consulted advisers. They told him to condemn the white nationalists who fomented the violence.

He did not. Instead, he spoke of an “egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence that’s on many sides.”

Mr. Trump is alone in modern presidential history in his willingness to summon demons of bigotry and intolerance in service to himself. He began his political career on a lie about President Barack Obama’s citizenship and has failed to firmly condemn the words and deeds of white supremacists, neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klan leaders and other bigots who rallied behind him. A number of these people, including David Duke, the former Klan imperial wizard, and Richard Spencer, self-styled theorist of the alt-right, were part of the amen chorus of bigots in Charlottesville.


“We are going to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump,” said Mr. Duke, whose support Mr. Trump has only reluctantly disavowed in the past. “That’s what we believed in. That’s why we voted for Donald Trump.”

Mr. Trump’s fear of naming the source of Saturday’s violence sharply contrasts with his eagerness to call out Islamist terror.

All day on Sunday, Mr. Trump remained silent, as H. R. McMaster, the national security adviser, and Mike Pompeo, director of the Central Intelligence Agency, whose jobs are to understand and combat hate-based threats, covered for him on the television news shows. Ivanka Trump, her father’s senior adviser and self-proclaimed moderating force, issued a single tweet of protest.

“There should be no place in society for racism, white supremacy and neo-nazis,” she wrote on Sunday, apparently blind to her father’s accommodation of those forces.

One aide not heard from was Steve Bannon, Mr. Trump’s chief strategist, whose nationalist theories and Breitbart dog whistles helped summon the rage on display in Charlottesville.

On Sunday, the White House issued, anonymously, another weak statement, saying that the president’s words on Saturday “of course” included “white supremacists, KKK, Neo-Nazi and all extremist groups.”

Meanwhile a handful of congressional Republicans have condemned the hate on display in Charlottesville, and in our politics. Senator Cory Gardner of Colorado said of white supremacists, “We don’t want them in our base, they shouldn’t be in a base, we shouldn’t call them part of a base.”

But Mr. Trump does, and in his desperation to rescue his failing presidency, he again clung to them.
The Hate He Dares Not Speak Of | NYTimes.com

OAW
     
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Aug 14, 2017, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Personally, I find it completely disingenuous
Well, I for one am shocked, shocked I tell you.
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Aug 14, 2017, 02:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Well, I for one am shocked, shocked I tell you.
Are you defending Trump?
     
Snow-i
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Aug 14, 2017, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I thought maybe we could get a "white nationalists have no place in this country" instead of this "both sides" shit, but alas, you're echoing Trump on this one.
Well then let me be clear.

White nationalists have no place in this country.

Violent extremists of any sort have no place in this country.
     
BadKosh
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Aug 14, 2017, 05:17 PM
 
Many relatives who's ancestors fought on both sides of the civil war still remember. The southerners who fought and lost are now having their ancestors memories spit on by the PC assholes. This is why the backlash, assisted by 8 years of racist BS from Obama, who took race relations back 75 years. AntiFa, paid for by George Soros along with others, is trying to bring the US to a civil war. Radicals on both sides really need to STFU. Radical leftists really don't need me suggesting tactics to their opponents, as I know a shitload of nasty shit to do to their violent thugs. Some can be fixed with an ER visit, other stuff not so much.
     
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Aug 14, 2017, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Many relatives who's ancestors fought on both sides of the civil war still remember. The southerners who fought and lost are now having their ancestors memories spit on by the PC assholes. This is why the backlash, assisted by 8 years of racist BS from Obama, who took race relations back 75 years. AntiFa, paid for by George Soros along with others, is trying to bring the US to a civil war. Radicals on both sides really need to STFU. Radical leftists really don't need me suggesting tactics to their opponents, as I know a shitload of nasty shit to do to their violent thugs. Some can be fixed with an ER visit, other stuff not so much.
Right, it was Obama's fault that all the racists came crawling out of the woodwork to insult, resist, obstruct and make ridiculous claims about him. How dare he be a black guy.
How are you not too smart to think the way you do about this stuff?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Snow-i
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Aug 14, 2017, 05:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I thought maybe we could get a "white nationalists have no place in this country" instead of this "both sides" shit, but alas, you're echoing Trump on this one.
I don't understand how a call denouncing violent extremism could be offensive to you - unless that is you believe that extremism is justified by one group or the other.

I am echoing Trump in calling for peace, calm, and an end to the violence? THE HORROR! I am also echoing pretty much every reasonable person that ever lived through periods of civil unrest.

If you're looking for me to specifically reaffirm denouncing white nationalist groups and the like, I am happy to do so.

If you're looking for me to phrase it in a way that ignores other groups using violent extremism to further their goals, however noble you may feel they are, well I can't get behind justifying, rationalizing, or ignoring that violence or extremism.

We cannot have a discussion or begin the healing process until this stops from everyone. There will always be extremists - the best way to deal with them is to ignore them - else they are getting exactly what they want and will be further incentivized towards violence. You (collectively) giving the KKK and white nationalists the airtime they're getting is only helping them reach their goals. Same goes for the other extremists involved.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 14, 2017, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I agree with your contempt, but are you advocating unified shaming and continued social isolation for them or actual legal ramifications for publicly gathering?
I am not advocating any censorship or violence towards them.


Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Also, Antifa is just as much of a terrorist organization as neo-Nazis groups, and their preferred tactics are barely human. From Page 4 of this letter to Portland's mayor from their chief of police:
I googled your source and it came up as a literal fake news site.

Regardless, I think I know the point you were trying to make, so I'll address it.

I don't anything about antifa. They're barely covered in the news; what I do hear is usually on social media, and I don't think any of it is positive. I reserve the right to change my mind, but in the early going, they look to me like a group of angry leftists who are content if their confrontations with hate groups get violent. I might agree with where they're coming from if it were explained to me, but I do not endorse their current approach nor condone it. It is counter-productive, as evidenced by the cover it gives the craven and the frauds to make 'both sides' arguments.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 14, 2017, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I don't understand how a call denouncing violent extremism could be offensive to you - unless that is you believe that extremism is justified by one group or the other.

I am echoing Trump in calling for peace, calm, and an end to the violence? THE HORROR! I am also echoing pretty much every reasonable person that ever lived through periods of civil unrest.

If you're looking for me to specifically reaffirm denouncing white nationalist groups and the like, I am happy to do so.

If you're looking for me to phrase it in a way that ignores other groups using violent extremism to further their goals, however noble you may feel they are, well I can't get behind justifying, rationalizing, or ignoring that violence or extremism.
One side espouses racial superiority and/or ethnic or civil homogeneity. The other espouses opposition to fascism, sexism and racism. I don't endorse that they both are prone to violence, but I'm also glad there's a group showing up to take a stand against these racist ****s and letting them know society isn't tacitly behind them.

By using 'both sides' rhetoric, you degrade those that stand in opposition to those unamerican ideals to the same level of the nazis, supremacists and nationalists. You must separate condemnation of the act with condemnation of the belief. That's why Trump's Saturday statement was hot garbage.



Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
You (collectively) giving the KKK and white nationalists the airtime they're getting is only helping them reach their goals. Same goes for the other extremists involved.
I no longer believe in shit like this. Once a movement reaches critical mass, their actions and beliefs must be broadcast. Let Americans see this ugly side that many have denied has been brewing even just last year. Putting the spotlight on this forces us to have the conversation; Parents have to explain to their children why this is wrong, and society has to decide to address it.
     
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Aug 14, 2017, 07:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Right, it was Obama's fault that all the racists came crawling out of the woodwork to insult, resist, obstruct and make ridiculous claims about him. How dare he be a black guy.
How are you not too smart to think the way you do about this stuff?
Does inviting Black Lives Matter to the WH count?
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 14, 2017, 07:16 PM
 
...and, of course, those goes back to what liberals were saying all during the election. Trump was legitimizing these people, emotionally and nationally. Their rhetoric (IMO) already feels bolder than last year – before we were dealing with white nationalists, now we have full-fledged neo-nazis showing up. Saturday is the continuation of that legitimization by Trump not calling out those specific ideologies. It was evident in the pic I posted:




Today saw Trump give a forced presser and it had all the sincerity of a child being forced to apologize for something he didn't think he did wrong. But it'll serve its purpose, for the left and the right. The left gets the president to denounce the racists publicly, on the record. Politicians on the right get to downgrade their "I'm concerned" status with Trump's previous statement to "I'm satisfied" he addressed the issue, and shitheads like Richard Spencer will perceive what happened fairly accurately:
"His statement today was more kumbaya nonsense," said Spencer, who attended and was slated to speak at the white nationalist "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, on Saturday. "Only a dumb person would take those lines seriously."
"I don't think he condemned it, no," Spencer said. "Did he say 'white nationalist?' 'Racist' means an irrational hatred of people. I don't think he meant any of us.'"
And he'll continue to do this, knowingly or unknowingly, because he's at best indifferent to racism and because he instinctively knows these people (deplorable one might say) are his base of support.


In short:
     
Snow-i
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Aug 14, 2017, 07:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
One side espouses racial superiority and/or ethnic or civil homogeneity. The other espouses opposition to fascism, sexism and racism. I don't endorse that they both are prone to violence, but I'm also glad there's a group showing up to take a stand against these racist ****s and letting them know society isn't tacitly behind them.
I cannot support your rationalization for violence as a means to combat the white nationalists. I'm sorry, just no. Not even close. You ought to be ashamed of that viewpoint. All it will lead to is more extremism, more violence and more radicalization to the benefit of precisely no one. You will never reach your stated goal and many, many innocent people will have their lives and livelihoods destroyed with more violence and worse all of it will be in vain.

The ends do not justify the means.

Not to mention, riots in the streets will not do anything, anything at all to curb the white nationalists. It will only further entrench them and give them a national voice (something we should be aiming to eliminate).
By using 'both sides' rhetoric, you degrade those that stand in opposition to those unamerican ideals to the same level of the nazis, supremacists and nationalists. You must separate condemnation of the act with condemnation of the belief. That's why Trump's Saturday statement was hot garbage.
No, I am not degrading anyone by calling for an end to violence, and denouncing violent groups. You conflating my denouncing violence from anyone as support for the white-nationalists is appalling and dishonest.

You're "if you're not against them, you're with them!" attitude is not only a logical fallacy, but it's offensive on a number of levels to those of us standing against white nationalism. You'll never get anywhere close to reaching your goals with that mindset. It's petty, immature, and counter to your stated goals.

I am against the white nationalists. I am also against violence. Stop trying to use absolutionism to define what my views are or what you think they ought to be.



I no longer believe in shit like this.
Non violent means of cultural change? I think much less of you reading this.

Once a movement reaches critical mass, their actions and beliefs must be broadcast.
Actions like violence?

That's in the cards? Nope, sorry - can't get on-board with that no matter how you justify it towards yourself.
Let Americans see this ugly side that many have denied has been brewing even just last year. Putting the spotlight on this forces us to have the conversation; Parents have to explain to their children why this is wrong, and society has to decide to address it.
Violence is okay as long as I agree with the motives of those perpetrating it. What does that teach the children, Dakar?

If we want to prove the white nationalists wrong, we have to be above them. We cannot stoop to their levels and claim superiority.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 14, 2017, 07:23 PM
 
I clearly said in that post and the one previous I don't condone the violence. You're entire reply is a strawman where you read every point or statement as if I'm talking about or advocating violence. Try again.
     
 
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