[Taliesin]

... will he be successful?
Abbas ordered his security forces to stop militants from firing rockets or from trying to directly attack israeli soldiers or settlers.

Abbas also told them not to try to disarm or to arrest them.

At the same time, Abbas meets with Hamas and Islamic Dschihad and tries to convince them of a truce with Israel.

But will he be successful? I think it's possible when Israel restrains itself and refrains from any israeli military operations in the occupied areas.

Here is the BBC-link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4180971.stm

Taliesin

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
I think it's possible when Israel restrains itself and refrains from any israeli military operations in the occupied areas.

In other words: it's impossible.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
... will he be successful?
Abbas ordered his security forces to stop militants from firing rockets or from trying to directly attack israeli soldiers or settlers.

Abbas also told them not to try to disarm or to arrest them.

At the same time, Abbas meets with Hamas and Islamic Dschihad and tries to convince them of a truce with Israel.

But will he be successful? I think it's possible when Israel restrains itself and refrains from any israeli military operations in the occupied areas.

Here is the BBC-link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4180971.stm

Taliesin

lets pray it works for our familys sakes eh Tal?

[MacGorilla]

Both sides need to show some restraint.

[vmarks]

Mahmoud Abbas declared on Saturday Jan 1 ( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...stinians_abbas ) that he wants to shield Palestininan "militants" from Israel and indicated that he has no plans to crack down on gunmen after the upcoming PA presidential election.

PA Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia stated on the same day that Palestinians should halt violence only if there were a credible peace process with Israel leading towards a viable Palestinian state. It occurs to me that this is a threat, the attacks will continue until Israel gives them a state that is to their satisfaction. Saying in essence "Give us peace, or we'll kill you" shows a lack of understanding what the word 'peace' means. ( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...deast_qurie_dc )

And then, we have to also remember that on November 29th in an interview with Iran's television station Al-Aram, top PA official Farouk Kadumi (Khadoumi) declared that the two-state solution is a temporary solution, and that the final goal of the Palestinian Authority is a Palestinian state instead of Israel. He expressed confidence, saying "There are 300 million Arabs, while Israel has only the sea behind it."

Then Abbas becomes furious when Israel kills seven people preparing mortar fire on Israeli cities ( http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1104808684425 ) and shows his true colors, calling Israel the "Zionist Enemy."

He later issues a non-apology, saying he got carried away. ( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...nvotegazaabbas
)

He apparently takes lessons from other flip-floppers in politics, because on the SAME DAY as he issues the non-apology, he gives a speech that deliberately echoes Arafat's "millions of martyrs marching to Jerusalem" speech ( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._nm/mideast_dc )

Krauthammer has a very insightful piece of op-ed:

"Have we learned nothing? In the Middle East, words are actions. Never more so than in an election campaign where your words define your platform and establish your mandate. Abbas is running practically unopposed and yet, on the question of both ends and means, he chooses to run as Yasser Arafat.


During the decade of Oslo, Arafat’s every statement of hatred, incitement and glorification of violence was similarly waved away. Then bombs began going off in cafes and buses, and the Middle East wise men realized he meant it all along. Now once again they are telling us to ignore the words. Abbas does not really mean it, they assure us. This is just electioneering."

- http://www.townhall.com/columnists/c...20050107.shtml

Meanwhile, Hamas calls for more bombings:

As the Palestinian Central Election Committee was holding a press conference in Ramallah on Monday to announce the final results of the election for the chairmanship of the Palestinian Authority, hundreds of students attended a rally organized by Hamas at Bir Zeit University, where they called for more suicide attacks against Israel.


“Oh suicide bomber, wrap yourself with an explosive belt and fill the scene with blood,” chanted a chorus of five male students at the rally, held by the Hamas-affiliated Islamic List to mark the ninth anniversary of the killing of Hamas bomb-maker Yehya Ayyash, better known as “The Engineer.

-- http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1101615860782

Next, Abbas and Hamas team up for this:

"RAMALLAH, West Bank - Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said Thursday that he is ready to honor the security commitments in an internationally backed peace plan, and a Hamas leader said the violent Islamic group does not seek to eliminate the Jewish state.

Sheik Hassan Yousef, Hamas’ top official in the West Bank, also held out the possibility of a cease-fire with Israel.

“Hamas doesn’t want to eliminate Israel. Hamas is a realistic political movement,” Yousef said, in a marked departure from the group’s previous calls for the Jewish state’s destruction."

- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...l_palestinians

Amid all this, there was a Palestinian election going on- but Jimmy Carter was there to certify it even though there was apparently wide-spread fraud:

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Forty-six members of the Palestinian election commission, including top managers, resigned Saturday, saying they were pressured by Mahmoud Abbas’ campaign and intelligence officials to abruptly change voting procedures during the Jan. 9 presidential poll.

Two senior members of the commission, Ammar Dwaik and Baha al-Bakri, resigned early Saturday, and officials later announced the resignations of 44 more members.

The resignations raised questions about Sunday’s vote giving Abbas an overwhelming victory, though the officials who quit said the alleged irregularities did not fundamentally affect the final vote tally.

-- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...nians_election

Even in America they don't change the rules DURING voting.
And that's not all:

Apparently there was a HUGE overcount during voting:

When new Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas starts a new round of talks with Israel soon, it is a sure bet that one of his strongest motivating tools to spur the creation of a new Arab state is that surging Palestinian population figures mean that Jews will soon be outnumbered.

But a demographic study released this week could change all that. An eight-person team found that the actual number of residents in Gaza and the West Bank is nearly 1.4 million fewer than the published population of 3.8 million — and they derived much of that number from Palestinian figures.

- http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed...1121-5993r.htm

This article claims turnout was high, then corrected itself, low, based on the 3.8m numbers:

Palestinians initially said polls were being kept open another two hours because of heavy turnout. Subsequently, however, officials said the polls were being kept open to encourage turnout, which was only about 30 percent of 1.8 million eligible voters by noon local time (5 a.m. EST).

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...tinians_decide

Oh, and re-read that article, John Kerry was in the West Bank that day.

Now, for all the pretty words from Hamas and Abbas on how they were going to stop violence, did violence stop? No. Did Abbas even attempt to reign in Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, members of his own party, from murder?

Well, no, but we know it's possible to do so: After all, they can find and kill without trial anyone they consider a 'collaborator':

The so-called “armed wing” of Mahmoud Abbas/Abu Mazen’s Fatah party, the Al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, murdered a young Palestinian in a public square in front of a crowd of people after Friday prayers.

A young Palestinian man suspected of “collaboration” with Israel was executed on Friday in a public square in the Balata refugee camp near Nablus.


Eyewitnesses said Mahmoud Mansour, 23, was brought to the center of the camp by gunmen belonging to Fatah’s armed wing, the Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and shot to death in the presence of dozens of residents after noon prayers.

They said the man died instantly after being hit in the head with at least 25 bullets. The assailants and camp residents refused to allow an ambulance to take the body to a hospital. Instead, they threw the body in a nearby dumpster. (emphasis my own.)

- http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1105759232601

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by eklipse:
In other words: it's impossible.

If Palestine don't cause no trouble, there wont be no trouble.

I believe It was Israel that recently DIDN'T retaliate for the most recent time the got attacked. Saying they were going to wait and see what the new leader did about it.

When before, they knew what Arafat was going to do.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If Palestine don't cause no trouble, there wont be no trouble.

I believe It was Israel that recently DIDN'T retaliate for the most recent time the got attacked. Saying they were going to wait and see what the new leader did about it.

When before, they knew what Arafat was going to do.

Oh, you mean like when Israeli forces killed Palestinian children with tank fire?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Oh, you mean like when Israeli forces killed Palestinian children with tank fire?

You mean teenagers who were firing mortars on Israeli cities?

You'd rather blame Israel for defending itself from mortar fire than blame the parents who let their teenagers, encourage their teenagers to play with mortars.

After all, that's what Abbas was talking about when he showed his true colors and spoke of the "Zionist Enemy."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1104808684425

[eklipse]

Originally posted by vmarks:
You mean teenagers who were firing mortars on Israeli cities?

No, I mean children who were picking strawberries in the family plot.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/527095.html

[Taliesin]

Update 1:

Truce-talks with Hamas have started. Hamas says it's ready for a truce, if Israel stops military-operations in occupied areas:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4185521.stm

Abbas orders security-forces to guard the border between Gaza and Israel this week:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4186801.stm

Taliesin

[vmarks]

Update:

The Palestinians are not stopping attacks, despite flowery vague statements to the contrary.

First the statements:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ians_attacks_5

“A decision was taken that we will handle our obligation to stop violence against Israelis anywhere,” said Cabinet minister Saeb Erekat. He did not provide details. ...

Hamas spokesman Mushir al-Masri said the group would not comply with the new orders. “We consider resistance as a red line, and no one is allowed to cross this line,” al-Masri said.

--- meaning that as long as Hamas can call it 'resistance' the attacks will continue, just don't go beyond resistance.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...eininmilitants

Tells much the same story- vague directive with no real action or anything to make it differ from the past.

Of course, both these statements are followed by what? Another attack? Of course.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...gaza_explosion

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself near a major road used by Israeli settlers and soldiers in the southern Gaza Strip on Tuesday, wounding at least six Israelis. A Palestinian bystander also was hurt, according to Palestinian rescue officials.


The Hamas militant group claimed responsibility in an electronic message sent to The Associated Press, identifying the bomber as Omar Tabach, 21, from a village outside the nearby Khan Younis refugee camp.


The attack occurred shortly after Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas arrived in Gaza in a bid to persuade Palestinian militants to halt their attacks on Israelis.

---

Oh, I understand- it's okay to halt attacks, AFTER the attack has been committed.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ians_militants

Following today’s suicide bomb attack: Palestinian Militant Group Halts Attacks.


JERUSALEM - A leader of a militant group linked to the mainstream Fatah Party said Tuesday his group would stop attacks inside Israel as a gesture to new Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas.


Zachariya Zubeidi, the most prominent West Bank figure in the Al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, announced the halt as Abbas was in Gaza trying to negotiate a cease-fire to be honored by the militants.

---

Al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades is a branch of Fatah, which is Mahmoud Abbas’ own party.

In fact, Abbas will do nothing:

PA chief Mahmoud Abbas has made it clear that his recent well-publicized "order" to do "whatever necessary to stop Palestinian terror in Gaza" does not mean the use of actual force against terrorists.

"We are not interested in clashing with anyone," Abbas (Abu Mazen) told PA journalists on Monday, the day after he handed down the instructions to stop terrorism - orders that made headlines all over the world. "We don't want a civil war; we have said many times that civil war is a red line," he said, according to a report in NFC. Abu Mazen also said that he is against the Bush-Sharon understandings of April 2004

Apparently, "whatever necessary" means "whatever necessary without actually having to do anything."

[vmarks]

In the meantime, PA chief Abbas is meeting in Gaza with heads of various terrorist groups, trying to verbally obtain their consent for a temporary ceasefire. He met with Hamas leaders precisely while a Hamas terrorist blew himself up last night and killed GSS agent Oded Sharon. No statement was issued after the meeting, but a Hamas spokesman later said that Israel must first agree to stop all counter-terror measures. As reported, Abu Mazen has said he will not use force to disarm the terrorists.

Odd coincidence that Abbas was meeting with Hamas leaders at the precise moment that a Hamas man committed a terrorist act.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by vmarks:
In the meantime, PA chief Abbas is meeting in Gaza with heads of various terrorist groups, trying to verbally obtain their consent for a temporary ceasefire. He met with Hamas leaders precisely while a Hamas terrorist blew himself up last night and killed GSS agent Oded Sharon. No statement was issued after the meeting, but a Hamas spokesman later said that Israel must first agree to stop all counter-terror measures. As reported, Abu Mazen has said he will not use force to disarm the terrorists.

Obviously Abbas is embarking on a foolish campaign because the use of force against militants has worked so well for Israel in the past.....

[Taliesin]

Update 2:

It seems like Abbas was successful, the militants of Hamas and Islamic Djihad are promising a truce with Israel, as long as Israel stops its military incursions in the occupied areas:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4199189.stm

Where's the difference between update1 and update2, you ask? Well in update1 it was all still more speculation, rumors and nothing decisive, while in update2, they seem to have made a deal, and Israel is thinking that Abbas has offered Hamas a position in the palestinian authority for the truce.

Taliesin

[Salah al-Din]

What is obvious in this thread is that some Israelis feel it is absolutely necessary to tarnish the name of the newly elected leader of Palestine so that they will have an excuse to continue killing our children and stealing our land. What a shame.

[Millennium]

This is exactly the sort of step that many people have been waiting for, and it's one of the steps which Arafat refused to take. I wish Abbas success in his endeavor, because this is the key to peace.

[vmarks]

Oh sweet mercy.

Don't believe the hype.

There is no cease-fire here, and there is none agreed to.

A Kassam rocket was fired this morning at the greenhouse area of the Gaza community of Ganei Tal.

After three days of a drastic reduction in mortar shell firing, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade said its promise to stop the attacks was contingent on "a comprehensive cessation of all [Israeli] military operations in our land." The Islamic Jihad terrorist gang insisted that Israel completely withdraw from all of Gaza.

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine hinged their agreement on Israel's releasing prisoners. About 10,000 Arabs, including more than 1,000 with "have blood on their hands," are in Israeli prisons.

A significant holdout was the Hamas terror group which denied reports it had agreed to a cease-fire and added that it is "considering" the idea.

Although virtually all the major news media reported that terrorist attacks have been reduced to "zero," terrorists returned to action Saturday. A Kassam rocket and mortar shell were fired Saturday near Neve Dekalim, an anti-tank missile was fired near Gane Tal and terrorists shot at IDF posts near Gan Or and Kfar Darom. Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade terrorists said they fired on the soldiers, No one was injured. All four communities are in Gush Katif in southern Gaza.

-- http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=75719

Shortly after Hamas' deputy politburo leader Moussa Abu-Marzouk announced that attacks against Israeli targets would continue, an IDF soldier was lightly wounded by enemy gunfire directed at a Rafiah area outpost in southern Gaza. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, as it had for last night's Kassam rocket strike on Sderot. A 15-year-old Israeli girl sustained critical injuries and her 10-year-old brother was moderately-to-seriously injured in the latter incident.

-- http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=75391

Gaza Strip settlers Sunday accused the government of covering up weekend terror attacks in an attempt to strengthen Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's efforts to achieve a cease-fire.

On Saturday, Kfar Darom settlers were shocked to hear media reports about Abu Mazen's success in achieving a hudna (cease-fire), as they were forced to remain in their homes during a half-hour long shootout between IDF troops and Palestinian gunmen. The settlers also reported an attempt by Palestinians to fire a Kassam missile.

On Sunday, the violence continued in Gaza after shots were fired at a convoy leaving Netzarim and a mortar shell was launched at an IDF outpost nearby.

In response to the ongoing "ignored" violence, head of the Disengagement Administration Yonatan Bassi's daughter, Yiska Oppenheim, traveled to the Gaza Strip from Jerusalem to kick off the Tu Bishvat tree planting festivities in Ganei Tal.

"I came in response to the government's apathetic approach to the shooting attacks in Gaza," Oppenheim said, "and as an act of solidarity with the local residents."

Settlers were particularly disturbed by the army's description of the half-hour long shootout in Kfar Darom, which the IDF called "a single burst of gunfire."

"There is no cease-fire," longtime Elei Sinai settler Avi Farhan said.

"The government thinks that since there aren't Kassams landing in Sderot and people aren't getting killed then there is a cease-fire, when in reality the attacks are continuing against the Gaza Strip settlers," he said.

Farhan said he believes Abu Mazen succeeded in fooling Sharon into believing he is sincere in maintaining a cease-fire.

"Abu Mazen told the various Palestinian factions to quiet things down for the next few months until after the disengagement plan and only to restart the attacks after we run away and leave all the land behind," he said.

Furious over what he called attempts by the IDF to cover up shooting attacks in Gush Katif, Gaza Strip Regional Council Spokesman Eran Sternberg called the latest violence an "aspakat eish," or supply of fire, a play on the Hebrew term for a cease-fire, hafsakat eish.

"The government is interested in covering up what is really going on since Sharon doesn't want to ruin the peace festivities," he said.

"It is very comfortable to lie and to say that things are quiet when they really aren't," he said.

-- http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1078027574097

In summary: continued attacks, Israel claims there aren't in order to politically satisfy the needs of those in the world community who want to believe Abbas is a peace-maker, and not even the basic condemnation of the attacks like Arafat used to- instead, the demand for the release of 4,000 to 10,000 convicted terrorist criminals.

Lovely.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Oh sweet mercy.

Don't believe the hype.

There is no cease-fire here, and there is none agreed to.

This isn't about a cease-fire. It's about the Palestinian Authority finally holding the terrorist groups responsible for their actions, and putting forth a good-faith effort to stop them by force if they won't stop willingly.

If the terrorists stop willingly, that is good. If they do not, then we now have a guarantee that they will no longer have the protection of their government, and so if they do not stop they will be stopped.

[Salah al-Din]

A question for vmarks:

How is the PA supposed to stop the attacks(legitimate resistance and terrorist attacks) when Israel has failed to do so for over 50 years?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
How is the PA supposed to stop the attacks(legitimate resistance and terrorist attacks) when Israel has failed to do so for over 50 years?

The PA is, as I understand it, a step toward Palestinian self-rule. As long as Palestinians see themselves as separate from Israelis -an assertion which I don't mean to judge, only to observe- then attempts made by the PA will have an air of legitimacy among Palestinians that attempts made by Israeli forces do not have.

This is important, because while the majority of Palestinians are not terrorists, there are a fair number who sympathize with the terror groups even though they would never personally commit such acts. A large part of this is due, once again, to the view of Israel as an invading force. If the PA starts to crack down, then suddenly a more legitimate authority is acting to do the same. Presumably, this authority also has better knowledge of the Palestinian people than Israel does, which should drastically reduce the errors and accidents which occur; this is always welcome.

And why would this perceived legitimacy make a difference? The terror groups have long relied on support from sympathizers. If that support dries up, then the groups lose one of their major means of protecting themselves. A snake's head can still bite for a time after being separated from its tail, but it does die in due time, as long as the people are willing to wait it out.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
A question for vmarks:

How is the PA supposed to stop the attacks(legitimate resistance and terrorist attacks) when Israel has failed to do so for over 50 years?

The PA seems completely capable of stopping alleged "palestinian collaborators with the 'Zionist Entity'" - whether by killing them in the public square or making show trials. The public square method is the one that seems to be more common, as I can only find one reference to such show trials with no specific case named.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1106363885618

and

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1105759232601

wherein:

Brigades murder 2 'collaborators'

Khaled Abu Toameh, THE JERUSALEM POST Jan. 15, 2005
Two young Palestinian men suspected of "collaboration" with Israel were murdered in the Nablus area over the weekend.

The first murder took place on Friday in a public square in Balata refugee camp, south of Nablus.

Eyewitnesses said Mahmoud Mansour, 23, was brought to the center of the camp by gunmen from Fatah's armed wing, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, and shot to death in the presence of dozens of residents after noon prayers.

They said the man died instantly after being hit in the head with at least 25 bullets. The assailants and camp residents refused to allow an ambulance to take the body to a hospital. Instead, they threw it into a nearby dumpster.

It was the third killing of its kind in the Nablus area in the past two weeks. Earlier this month, Fatah gunmen in the Old City of Nablus kidnapped and murdered a 44-year old man whom they also accused of collaborating with Israel. That killing took place only hours before Fatah candidate and PLO Chairman Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) arrived in the city on an election tour.

In recent months, at least 13 "collaborators" have been ruthlessly murdered in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, all by Fatah gunmen.

------

Please note: this is not a random group of killers carrying out random acts. The Al Aqsa Martyrs� Brigades is the official �armed wing� of the political party whose leader has just been elected chairman of the Palestinian Authority. The people who did this belong to Mahmoud Abbas/Abu Mazen�s own political organization.

EDIT: The new chairman of the PA has death squads on the street, murdering people who, either courageously or out of greed, help Israel fight the terror gangs.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by Millennium:
The terror groups have long relied on support from sympathizers.

All fair points except this one. What some describe as terrist acts other view as legitimate resistance. Just look at vmarks post above. There he lists an attack on IDF forces as a terrorist attack. Deliberate attacks on civilians are terrorist attacks. But so is collective punishment of civilians. But attacks on an occupying military is not a terrorist attack.

But what I was about to say about this point is that as long as Israel occupies Palestinian territory and continues to expand the colonies in Palestinian territory support for both the resistance operations as well as the terror operations will continue. Or do you think that someone who has lived as a refugee his whole life, just recently built up a small farm to earn a living yet the Israelis burn his olive trees, bulldoze his house, and kill his youngest daughter will just say "Yup, war sucks. Better start all over again". Or do you think he will want to support someone who fights against the ones who destroyed his life and family(be they terrorists or legitimate resistance fighters)? The support for resistance will exist as long as the occupation continues.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The PA seems completely capable of stopping alleged "palestinian collaborators with the 'Zionist Entity'"

Great spin. But that is all it is.

The PA doesn't do this. The resistance factions do this. And this is what a traitor deserves.

But good spin non the less.

But will you now answer my question?

[nath]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The public square method is the one that seems to be more common, as I can only find one reference to such show trials with no specific case named.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
All fair points except this one. What some describe as terrist acts other view as legitimate resistance.

And I would argue that most sympathizers take this very view. Very few sympathizers indeed would view their supported groups' acts as terrorism. Even most terrorists don't view their own acts as such. It's very difficult to sympathize with someone you see as a terrorist unless you've gone completely crazy, and I think you and I can agree that most supporters of these groups don't fit that description.

When a group which is seen as legitimate starts cracking down on those resistance groups as terrorists, however, then that forces a sympathizer's own opinions to be called into question. That's what makes the PA stepping in so important. Even the few self-avowed terrorists (that is to say, those who actually view their own acts as terrorism but continue to do them anyway) see at least some legitimacy in the PA -more than the IDF, ay any rate- and so this can't help but shake the resolve of more than a few supporters.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
Great spin. But that is all it is.

The PA doesn't do this. The resistance factions do this. And this is what a traitor deserves.

But good spin non the less.

But will you now answer my question?

What part of "The Al Aqsa Martyrs� Brigades is the official �armed wing� of the political party whose leader has just been elected chairman of the Palestinian Authority. The people who did this belong to Mahmoud Abbas/Abu Mazen�s own political organization." do you disbelieve?

This not some 'resistance faction', it is the armed wing of the PA. They can stop terrorists, but instead choose to be them.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
What part of "The Al Aqsa Martyrs� Brigades is the official �armed wing� of the political party whose leader has just been elected chairman of the Palestinian Authority. The people who did this belong to Mahmoud Abbas/Abu Mazen�s own political organization." do you disbelieve?

This not some 'resistance faction', it is the armed wing of the PA. They can stop terrorists, but instead choose to be them.

Is that why they are trying to negotiate with them to end attacks? Hold on. That sounds a bit silly doesn't it. To negotiate with someone you control.

But still. You haven't told me how they are supposed to do it while Israel hasn't. You've tried to say that they are able to find traitors and hand out their punishments. You haven't said how they are supposed to end the attacks.

But this is the typical answer when you ask a Zionist this question. Nothing new here.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
Is that why they are trying to negotiate with them to end attacks? Hold on. That sounds a bit silly doesn't it. To negotiate with someone you control.

That's it then: Either Abbas controls them, and the murderous attacks on Israel happen with his support and all this talk now is simply talk, or he doesn't control them and cannot control them, rendering all this talk now as simply talk.

Given his earlier positions, the former seems to be the correct one.

But still. You haven't told me how they are supposed to do it while Israel hasn't. You've tried to say that they are able to find traitors and hand out their punishments. You haven't said how they are supposed to end the attacks.

But this is the typical answer when you ask a Zionist this question. Nothing new here.

Sure I have: They are capable of finding and stopping so-called collaborators, so they are also capable of finding and stopping terrorists. Do they care about stopping the terrorists launching Qassam rockets at pre-schools in Sderot? No. Do they care about stopping the terrorists who kill Israeli infants seatbelted in the back seat of a car at point-blank range? No. They have to want to stop such things, but (sarcasm) that would mean actually doing something to stop attacks on Israel- a close step to collaboration, and they could never do that.

If Abbas negotiates with the 'so-called Zionist Entity' will his Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade consider that collaboration? Will they treat him as they have other people they deem 'collaborators' ?

[Salah al-Din]

Why don't you just admit that you don't know the answer to the question instead of spending all that time writing something that has nothing to do with the question?

edited to add: And negotiating with Israel and pointing out who to kill, what farm to burn and what houses to bulldoze are two different things.

[Taliesin]

Update 3:
Israel's primeminister Ariel Sharon lifts the ban on diplomatic contacts with palestinian authority that was set up two weeks ago:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4207885.stm

The violence between palestinians and Israelis is reduced considerably since talks began between Hamas and the PA, a Kasseem rocket here and there, Israeli soldiers kill a three-year-old palestinian girl as retaliation, but all in all it's pretty calm.

Taliesin

[vmarks]

Correction to the above update 3:

Two Kassam rockets fired, continued attacks as below:

"The ceasefire exists only in the media," says longtime Gaza resident Datia Yitzchaki. The Gush Katif entrance was closed for three hours last night after terrorists fired at and hit an army truck.

The truck was hit at the Kisufim Junction into Gush Katif, and the army closed the road while soldiers combed the area. On Sunday, a mortar shell was fired at the community of Kfar Yam, and an explosive device was activated near Ganei Tal. No one was hurt, but Yitzchaki, who once served as the region's official spokesperson, says, "The Palestinian terrorists continue doing what they know how to do: try to murder Jews."

"The gestures and restriction-easings that the government plans to give Abu Mazen," Yitzchaki told Arutz-7 last night, "will simply enable them to better prepare for their next attack upon us."

A Gush Katif neighborhood committee called upon the regional IDF Commander, Brig.-Gen. Aviv Kokhavi, to take genuine remedial steps in response to last night's shooting, and not merely to "provide aspirin for a terminally ill patient."

And lastly,

The IDF did not murder a 3 year old girl in retaliation. To say that means they specifically intended to kill this 3 year old girl. Instead reality is that she was a casualty, unintentionally killed while pursuing the people causing the attacks. Stop causing attacks from the places where children live and play, and you'll cease putting them at risk.

[vmarks]

More on this fictional calm Taliesin describes. Not all are attacks against Israeli non-combatants, but does that make calm the correct description? no:

A Kassam rocket was fired this morning at the greenhouse area of the Gaza community of Ganei Tal... Gunfire was directed at IDF troops in the Gaza community of Gadid late last night... IDF soldiers arrested four terror suspects in Judea and Samaria during the night. Suspects in custody include a Fatah terrorist.... Soldiers in Shechem were targeted in three separate shooting attacks... An anti-tank rocket was fired at a military position near N'vei Dekalim in Gush Katif... A 30-kilogram (66 lbs.) bomb was discovered and safely detonated by soldiers in the Rafiah area of southern Gaza.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
terrorists fired at and hit an army truck.

It isn't terrorism to attack a military.

"provide aspirin for a terminally ill patient."

Just a bit racist?

The IDF did not murder a 3 year old girl in retaliation. To say that means they specifically intended to kill this 3 year old girl. Instead reality is that she was a casualty, unintentionally killed while pursuing the people causing the attacks. Stop causing attacks from the places where children live and play, and you'll cease putting them at risk.

How come the same doesn't apply to Israel?

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Gunfire was directed at IDF troops in the Gaza community of Gadid late last night

Not terrorism.

Soldiers in Shechem were targeted in three separate shooting attacks...

Not terrorism.

An anti-tank rocket was fired at a military position near N'vei Dekalim in Gush Katif

Not terrorism.

... A 30-kilogram (66 lbs.) bomb was discovered and safely detonated by soldiers in the Rafiah area of southern Gaza.

And?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
It isn't terrorism to attack a military.


Just a bit racist?

How come the same doesn't apply to Israel?

Not racist. The Palestinians teach children to put on bomb belts and blow themselves up. That's the school curriculum.

You have people who take great pride in intentionally killing Jews seatbelted in child seats in cars at point blank range.

You have people who fire rockets on pre-schools at cities inside Israel's uncontested border.

You don't have that same intention from Israel. Israel pursues the people who committed the acts and supported them in the acts of terror. Palestinians lack that intention, instead going for shopping malls, busses, and so forth.

Just because recent attacks have shifted the balance mildly towards the military (there are still attacks on non-combatants) does not mean that there is some 'relative calm.'

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Not racist. The Palestinians teach children to put on bomb belts and blow themselves up. That's the school curriculum.

Link? And do you consider Palestinians to be a "terminally ill patient"?

You have people who take great pride in intentionally killing Jews seatbelted in child seats in cars at point blank range.

No horrible crimes happen in Israel? Ever?

You have people who fire rockets on pre-schools at cities inside Israel's uncontested border.

Where? And uncontested by whom?

You don't have that same intention from Israel. Israel pursues the people who committed the acts and supported them in the acts of terror. Palestinians lack that intention, instead going for shopping malls, busses, and so forth.

Is that why the three year old was shot in the head? Or the kids in the fields the other day? Don't the Israeli snipers pride themselves of their capacity of headshots?

Just because recent attacks have shifted the balance mildly towards the military (there are still attacks on non-combatants) does not mean that there is some 'relative calm.'

How many attacks on non-combatants have there been since Abu Mazen started negotiating with the freedom fighters / terrorists? And how many where there in the time before that?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
Link? And do you consider Palestinians to be a "terminally ill patient"?

No horrible crimes happen in Israel? Ever?

Where? And uncontested by whom?

Is that why the three year old was shot in the head? Or the kids in the fields the other day? Don't the Israeli snipers pride themselves of their capacity of headshots?

How many attacks on non-combatants have there been since Abu Mazen started negotiating with the freedom fighters / terrorists? And how many where there in the time before that?

Ah so, now we see it clearly:

You tell us that Israel has no uncontested borders, with your "uncontested by whom?" - This is your agenda, to say that there is no legitimate Israel.

The girl was a 5 year old, not 3, and a preliminary investigation into the death of the five-year-old Arab girl in Gaza today indicates that a Kassam rocket fired by Palestinian terrorists fell short of its mark, and instead killed the girl.

Ask the Gush Katif community representative why they chose to portray the Palestinians that attack them as a terminally ill patient. It's their characterization. You can hardly blame them, for considering people who intentionally kill as many of thier community as possible to be so.

As for the classroom in PA schools?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/j...icide-usat.htm

"When I walk outside, young (Palestinian) children come up to me and say, 'Conduct another bombing to make us happy, sheik,' " says Sheik Hasan Yosef, 45, the senior Hamas leader in the West Bank city of Ramallah. "I cannot disappoint them. They won't have to wait long."

Visions of paradise

At any time, Israeli officials believe, Hamas has from five to 20 men, ages 18 to 23, awaiting orders to carry out suicide attacks. The group also claims to have "tens of thousands" of youths ready to follow in their footsteps. "We like to grow them," Yosef says. "From kindergarten through college."

In Hamas-run kindergartens, signs on the walls read: "The children of the kindergarten are the shaheeds (holy martyrs) of tomorrow." The classroom signs at Al-Najah University in the West Bank and at Gaza's Islamic University say, "Israel has nuclear bombs, we have human bombs."

At an Islamic school in Gaza City run by Hamas, 11-year-old Palestinian student Ahmed's small frame and boyish smile are deceiving. They mask a determination to kill at any cost. "I will make my body a bomb that will blast the flesh of Zionists, the sons of pigs and monkeys," Ahmed says. "I will tear their bodies into little pieces and cause them more pain than they will ever know."

"Allahu Akbar," his classmates shout in response: "God is great."

"May the virgins give you pleasure," his teacher yells, referring to one of the rewards awaiting martyrs in paradise. Even the principal smiles and nods his approval.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Ah so, now we see it clearly:

You tell us that Israel has no uncontested borders, with your "uncontested by whom?" - This is your agenda, to say that there is no legitimate Israel.

My "agenda"? No really, what borders are uncontested by whom?

Ask the Gush Katif community representative why they chose to portray the Palestinians that attack them as a terminally ill patient. It's their characterization. You can hardly blame them, for considering people who intentionally kill as many of thier community as possible to be so.

Nice dodge. I asked you if you thought Palestinians are a "terminally ill patient".

As for the classroom in PA schools?

Yet the whole article below focuses on Hamas. Hamas are not a part of the PA(yet).

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/j...icide-usat.htm

"When I walk outside, young (Palestinian) children come up to me and say, 'Conduct another bombing to make us happy, sheik,' " says Sheik Hasan Yosef, 45, the senior Hamas leader in the West Bank city of Ramallah. "I cannot disappoint them. They won't have to wait long."

Visions of paradise

At any time, Israeli officials believe, Hamas has from five to 20 men, ages 18 to 23, awaiting orders to carry out suicide attacks. The group also claims to have "tens of thousands" of youths ready to follow in their footsteps. "We like to grow them," Yosef says. "From kindergarten through college."

In Hamas-run kindergartens, signs on the walls read: "The children of the kindergarten are the shaheeds (holy martyrs) of tomorrow." The classroom signs at Al-Najah University in the West Bank and at Gaza's Islamic University say, "Israel has nuclear bombs, we have human bombs."

At an Islamic school in Gaza City run by Hamas, 11-year-old Palestinian student Ahmed's small frame and boyish smile are deceiving. They mask a determination to kill at any cost. "I will make my body a bomb that will blast the flesh of Zionists, the sons of pigs and monkeys," Ahmed says. "I will tear their bodies into little pieces and cause them more pain than they will ever know."

"Allahu Akbar," his classmates shout in response: "God is great."

"May the virgins give you pleasure," his teacher yells, referring to one of the rewards awaiting martyrs in paradise. Even the principal smiles and nods his approval.

I don't see anything from the curriculum in this article. You do know what curriculum means don't you? Or was that another spin?

[chalk_outline]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Ah so, now we see it clearly:

You tell us that Israel has no uncontested borders, with your "uncontested by whom?" - This is your agenda, to say that there is no legitimate Israel.

The girl was a 5 year old, not 3, and a preliminary investigation into the death of the five-year-old Arab girl in Gaza today indicates that a Kassam rocket fired by Palestinian terrorists fell short of its mark, and instead killed the girl.

Ask the Gush Katif community representative why they chose to portray the Palestinians that attack them as a terminally ill patient. It's their characterization. You can hardly blame them, for considering people who intentionally kill as many of thier community as possible to be so.

As for the classroom in PA schools?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/j...icide-usat.htm

"When I walk outside, young (Palestinian) children come up to me and say, 'Conduct another bombing to make us happy, sheik,' " says Sheik Hasan Yosef, 45, the senior Hamas leader in the West Bank city of Ramallah. "I cannot disappoint them. They won't have to wait long."

Visions of paradise

At any time, Israeli officials believe, Hamas has from five to 20 men, ages 18 to 23, awaiting orders to carry out suicide attacks. The group also claims to have "tens of thousands" of youths ready to follow in their footsteps. "We like to grow them," Yosef says. "From kindergarten through college."

In Hamas-run kindergartens, signs on the walls read: "The children of the kindergarten are the shaheeds (holy martyrs) of tomorrow." The classroom signs at Al-Najah University in the West Bank and at Gaza's Islamic University say, "Israel has nuclear bombs, we have human bombs."

At an Islamic school in Gaza City run by Hamas, 11-year-old Palestinian student Ahmed's small frame and boyish smile are deceiving. They mask a determination to kill at any cost. "I will make my body a bomb that will blast the flesh of Zionists, the sons of pigs and monkeys," Ahmed says. "I will tear their bodies into little pieces and cause them more pain than they will ever know."

"Allahu Akbar," his classmates shout in response: "God is great."

"May the virgins give you pleasure," his teacher yells, referring to one of the rewards awaiting martyrs in paradise. Even the principal smiles and nods his approval.

Why are you a Moderater? You seem good at iMacs but, make a new account for this ****. Crap, DU and Freeperville look good right now.

[Taliesin]

Vmarks is in someways right about Hamas and their strategy to educate and use human bombs...

While that is understandable from a strategic point of view of guerillias what Hamas does, after all Israel is technologically superior and militarily way better equipped and organised, so it's necessary to have ways to retaliate against Israelis in the hope that the public will find the price for the wrongdoings of their army too high and restrain their army, but in a islamic point of view it is condemnable nonetheless.

Not because civilians are killed in retaliation for killed civilians among the own population, which is allowed though not prescripted, but because of the use of suicide as a method, which is in most cases forbidden for muslims, and because of the wrong promises of guaranteed paradise and virgins for suicidebombers and because of the abuse of the martyr-status, and because of the use of racistic ideas (after all, jews are declared in the Quran as people of the book and recognised as mostly believers in God), in order to suppress doubts and mercy ...


Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Update 4:

Israel has conducted a military-operation in Gaza, yesterday, which left one palestinian dead and two other injured.

Al Aksa Brigades warn that such military operations have to stop within 24hrs, otherwise truce may not be realised.

All the while Hamas has announced to take part in Gaza's local elections of councilmembers and mayors.

Sharon seems very satisfie with Abbas: "I am very satisfied with what I am hearing is happening on the Palestinian side and I am very interested in advancing processes with him."

Talks about prisoner-releases by Israel are under way as a sign of goodwill.

US-official Burns will meet with Abbas and Qureia today before visiting Sharon.

Here is the BBC-report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4211099.stm

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Update 5:

In local elections for less than half of the councils in Gaza, Hamas seems to have won 75 seats out of 118, while Abbas Fatah won 26 seats.

Israel has confirmed that it will stop military operations where palestinian police-forces secure the area, while the palestinian militant groups have agreed to a temporary truce, which will be turned to a more stable cease-fire, if Israel agrees to stop military-operations in Gaza and Westbank.

Here is the BBC-report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4214375.stm

Taliesin

[vmarks]

is a picture of Hamas, post-election.

Meanwhile:

Never let it be said that Sharon is the obstacle to peace:

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is poised to pardon two PA officials with proven ties to terrorism, including one of the planners of the fatal November 2000 bombing of an Israeli school bus.

Rashid Abu Shabak, second-in-command of the PA Preventive Security Services in Gaza, is one of two senior PA officials wanted for their involvement in terror attacks whom PM Sharon has reportedly agreed to remove from Israel’s list of wanted terrorists. The other terrorist leader to be pardoned will be Tawfiq Tirawi. This will be a “good-will gesture” toward Abu Mazen and the PA.
-- http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=76008

However, the attacks keep coming. Fortunately, Israel keeps foiling them.

Some truce.

IDF forces killed a Palestinian terrorist in Kalkilye, east of Raanana, in the wake of intelligence information regarding his plans to perpetrate a car bomb attack in Israeli areas.

Maher Abu Sneineh was killed in a joint operation by the IDF, Israel Police and the General Security Service to arrest wanted terrorists in Kalkilye yesterday. The Hamas terrorist was planning a double attack, using a car bomb and a suicide killer, in the open market of Rosh HaAyin, just east of Petach Tikvah. Arutz-7's Kobi Finkler reports that Abu Sneineh and another terrorist attempted to escape the Israeli forces, but they opened fire on his getaway car, killing him and wounding his accomplice.

Last November, Abu Sneineh and a suicide terrorist he recruited attempted to carry out the attack, but they were thwarted by GSS activity that forced them to call it off. The GSS reports that in possession of the terrorists was much explosive material and many bombs designed for use in other attacks.

The wounded accomplice, a 19-year-old Tanzim bomb maker, was planning to supply an explosive device for yet another attack, this one in Kfar Saba.

Terrorists resumed massive mortar shelling of Gush Katif Thursday night and Friday morning as hundreds of Palestinian Authority (PA) police began patrolling southern Gaza.

"The same people who shoot us at night patrol during the day. Our own Arab workers tell us, 'You are idiots. They are the same people,'" said one Gush Katif resident. Five shells fell in different Jewish communities, and there were no reports of injuries or damage.

About two thousand police spread throughout the area bordering Gush Katif area. One of the police officers, Hamza Shihade, said his force's duty is "to secure our land." As the long convoy of jeeps and buses carrying police passed through Arab towns, one child exclaimed, "Look! We have an army and didn't even know it."

As Abu Mazen tries to prove he can control terrorist attacks, PA Prime Minister Ahmed Queria (Abu Abbas) signed a directive Thursday night banning civilians from carrying weapons. However, there was no definition of who is a "civilian," and organized terrorists indicated the order was intended against street crime.
--http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=76063

I can just imagine the terrorists saying 'they can't mean for US to give up weapons!'

After al, during the last so-called-hudna (used as a pretend cease-fire with continued attacks and as a means to gather strength and continue with even worse attacks) organized terrorist groups agreed to 'hudna' but insisted that they claimed the right to continue resistance attacks.

[Taliesin]

Update 6:
The truce is on shaking grounds, Israel's army again killed a palestinian schoolgirl (10 years old) in Gaza and on another incident a 65-year-old palestinian man was killed by israeli soldiers, when he walked near an army post on Sunday.

Hamas fired six mortar shells in retaliation, which damaged a house in a israeli settlement.

All the while palestinian and israeli officials are negotiating about letting some Westbank-towns be secured and controlled by palestinian security-forces and the withdrawal of the israeli army from those palestinian towns.

Here is the BBC-report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4222595.stm

Taliesin

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Update 6:
The truce is on shaking grounds, Israel's army again killed a palestinian schoolgirl (10 years old) in Gaza and on another incident a 65-year-old palestinian man was killed by israeli soldiers, when he walked near an army post on Sunday.

Hamas fired six mortar shells in retaliation, which damaged a house in a israeli settlement.

All the while palestinian and israeli officials are negotiating about letting some Westbank-towns be secured and controlled by palestinian security-forces and the withdrawal of the israeli army from those palestinian towns.

Here is the BBC-report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4222595.stm

Taliesin

IDF didn�t kill her that was clear from all the links I could find... in a base of thousands of soldiers most of them not wanting to be there all have said that the IDF never fired a round. And the people celebrating the return from their pilgrimage were firing guns in the air. Logical conclusions? It was an accident caused by trigger happy Palestinians. Sad but it happens. Next time read your links and the evidence around the death before you automatically assume it was the IDF cause they just love to soak their pita bread in the blood of little dead Palestinian girls...

Also not that it really matters but Hams fired 9 mortars.

I couldn�t find anything about the 65-year-old man other then that he was dead when he walked near an army outpost. Which you would think they would know by now is not allowed even when there are even signs in Arabic telling them.

[ebuddy]

This thread seems to be going well. Vmarks posts literally 15 pages of facts regarding the malintent of the PA and then await responses like; "if the evil Zionists could stop being evil..." Then Vmarks posts another entire page of facts and gets the reply; "the zionist needs to stop killing children..."

Dudes, the fight over Jerusalem will continue as will this thread; in vain. There will not be peace. There simply will not. How long do we endure; "they stole our land!" ,"NO, they stole OUR land!" ,"no, they stole OUR land." It's getting old. At some point way, way back in time, there was truth and it seems it will not ever be found until the zionist is entirely eliminated from the face of the earth. There can be no Israel. There can be no capital city. There can be no Israeli. The violence will continue until the head of each Jew is floating in the "water behind them".

Don't believe me when I say there's an agenda that has nothing to do with peace and two nations living side-by-side in peace, just listen to the leaders of the region. They are as clear about their real intentions as they could possibly be. Otherwise maybe, you have at least two pages of response to declare vmarks posted lies and the new prez never said what he said? "I was being emotional" means exactly what it's intended to mean; "I can't squelch my hatred for the Jew even when it might be in the best interest for me personally, and my people." If I'm wrong, give me some information. Give me something that tells me the PA rulers are not bent on eliminating the Jew in the long run. something. I don't hate people, I hate hatred. I see a lot of finger-pointing at Isrealis for killing children while those they support are strapping on bombs with the express intent of targeting them. They are not targeting military outposts, they're bombing indiscriminantly. It just gets old. There's got to be a truth out there. What is it? Please someone tell me.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Splinter:
IDF didn�t kill her that was clear from all the links I could find... in a base of thousands of soldiers most of them not wanting to be there all have said that the IDF never fired a round. And the people celebrating the return from their pilgrimage were firing guns in the air. Logical conclusions? It was an accident caused by trigger happy Palestinians. Sad but it happens. Next time read your links and the evidence around the death before you automatically assume it was the IDF cause they just love to soak their pita bread in the blood of little dead Palestinian girls...

upadted: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/534451.html

Bout time they start taking care of thier own garbage.

[BoomStick]

That can't be true!
Aljazeera says different from the lies of the zionist pigs!

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by Splinter:
upadted: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/534451.html

Bout time they start taking care of thier own garbage.

The most interesting part of that report you linked to, that tries to put the blame of the death of the palestinian girl on palestinians shooting in the air, is the quote of an israeli general of military intelligence talking about the various palestinian resistance-groups, espescially Hamas and the Lebanon-group Hezbollah and how he links them together and on top of it links them to Al-Kaida and Iran and calls it the local axis of evil:

IDF Intelligence: Hamas part of 'axis of evil'
The quiet in Gaza and the West Bank largely depends on the will of Hamas leaders, who form part of a regional "axis of evil" that opposes regional calm, the head of Military Intelligence said Tuesday.

"Everything can cause a break in the calm," Major General Aharon Ze'evi told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.

Ze'evi said Abbas had agreed to let Hamas leaders hold onto their weapons during cease-fire talks, adding that Hamas and Hezbollah are working together to dash any such halt of attacks.

"The axis of evil - which includes the Hezbollah, Hamas and Al-Qaida organizations supported by Iran - adamantly opposes calm, and Hamas and Hezbollah are working together to destroy the cease-fire," he said.

Ze'evi added that Palestinians were talking only about establishing "calm," rather than a more stable cease-fire or hudna (temporary truce).

Priceless. It's obvious that the Knesset should be prepared with anti-Iran-propaganda for the possible future military actions of Israel against Iran.

Taliesin

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
The most interesting part of that report you linked to, that tries to put the blame of the death of the palestinian girl on palestinians shooting in the air,

Face facts Mac... the PA says it the IDF says it everyone realizes and there are witnesses hundreds of them that will tell you the IDF was not firing anything at that time. It was an accident and it was their fault and that poor girl paid the price. Just get over yourself and your "everything Israel says is propaganda" $hit its really getting old.

Originally posted by Taliesin:
is the quote of an israeli general of military intelligence talking about the various palestinian resistance-groups, espescially Hamas and the Lebanon-group Hezbollah and how he links them together and on top of it links them to Al-Kaida and Iran and calls it the local axis of evil:

Priceless. It's obvious that the Knesset should be prepared with anti-Iran-propaganda for the possible future military actions of Israel against Iran.

Taliesin

Hell yeah... the sooner the better. They should have bombed Iran months ago but hey... they are going to get enough political crap over this strike as it is so I have a feeling they will wait till the last possible moment so as to at least say it was out of necessity because of time constraints.

See, there is one major problem with an Iranian retaliation especially if its chemical or biological... Our anti missle system will be intercepting those missles over Jordan and Syria... that can cause alot of damage to those nations... I hope Iran considers it's options carefully.