[Spheric Harlot]

And, after this brief discourse into interesting and relevant developmental questions, they're off again, twirling into oblivion as they chase irrelevant but elusive details…

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I'm just curious, if your 13 year old daughter was busted by you having sex with a 14 year old boy. How would you punish her? How much Hospitalization would be involved?

I'd talk with them both, let them know that their actions have ramifications, and then get her on birth control (if she isn't already). Even at that age it's important for them to understand the risk of pregnancy, STDs, and that condom use is very important. Hopefully, by then, we will have instilled in her the idea that sex is a good thing, but should be shared with someone you care for and not just as something to do. I don't have issues with my teen being sexually active, I just want her to learn responsibility and respect her body.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I'm quite aware of this.

The exchanges on the first page of this thread:

which was the first bit of intelligent human life in the thread since the original post, and shortly after that this post of mine:


And the whole thing was about appropriate PUNISHMENT for the kids.

See Shaddim's post just above for another example.

I don't see how your questions inform appropriate punishment. If anything deserves enhanced punishment, this does, and whether it was a perverted sex act or not doesn't change this. This behavior is more than 2 standard deviations away from normal.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

And, after this brief discourse into interesting and relevant developmental questions, they're off again, twirling into oblivion as they chase irrelevant but elusive details…

You know, if you sit further back from the bow, and use a little less throttle, your trolling will be more successful.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

By that logic every single kid would need to be isolated from every other kid to protect them from being bullied, pushed, spit on, made fun of, teased.....

Yes! Duh! "Time out" is a mainstay of modern parenting. The duration of isolation should obviously be proportionate to the severity of the infraction.

Your implication that "every single kid" does anything remotely similar to the description in this thread is retarded.

A little extreme for/if it's a one off incident. Have the meeting with the parents, punish with detention at school and parents whatever methods they use at home. I wouldn't even bother with professional help unless there is a actual pattern of misappropriate behavior. Overreact much?

And if the parents of the bully are abusing him, you would just throw him back to the wolves? Getting the authorities involved and shining a light on this is perfectly reasonable.

I can say the same, im staggered at how much you are over reacting and how much more dangerous your trying to make it out to be. How you ignore everything that's important such as location, context, activity, and age plus lack of prior history as far as we know.

The cover-up is worse than the crime. Because the cover-up is what enables the later, more damaging crime. It's the same reason that the perception of law & order is more powerful than actual law & order. Because the perception pre-empts more crimes than enforcement actually catches.

The lesson needs to be unambiguous: some things are not tolerated, and this is one of them. Overreaction is the right reaction.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Yes! Duh! "Time out" is a mainstay of modern parenting. The duration of isolation should obviously be proportionate to the severity of the infraction.

Your implication that "every single kid" does anything remotely similar to the description in this thread is retarded.

I don't think anyone in this thread said this was something they've encountered before. So, plainly, it's rather uncommon, and the reason is because most children that age don't hold other little kids down and try to molest them.

And if the parents of the bully are abusing him, you would just throw him back to the wolves? Getting the authorities involved and shining a light on this is perfectly reasonable.

and expected, if you aren't stupid.

The lesson needs to be unambiguous: some things are not tolerated, and this is one of them.

Amen.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I'd talk with them both, let them know that their actions have ramifications, and then get her on birth control (if she isn't already). Even at that age it's important for them to understand the risk of pregnancy, STDs, and that condom use is very important. Hopefully, by then, we will have instilled in her the idea that sex is a good thing, but should be shared with someone you care for and not just as something to do. I don't have issues with my teen being sexually active, I just want her to learn responsibility and respect her body.

Your answer surprises me and I was expecting something else.

[hart]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

This isn't some "child development guru's opinion," but neurodevelopment science. The brain is not fully structured to handle fine enough distinctions and abstract causes and consequences for a person to really "understand" death until the early to mid 20s.

I just wanted to toss out some thoughts on ghporter's helpful information. Most childhood developmental science is based on modern western child-rearing techniques in which children are given very few opportunities for real decision making, moral growth or risk assessment. Basically kids are largely told what to do and when to do it and have a very narrow range of actual control of their lives.

I've been observing for several years the behaviors and actions of children (ages 5-19) in a democratic free school in which all community decisions are made democratically by the voting body of kids and staff. The decisions and actions taken by the students have real consequences. Questions of sexual harassment, physical assault, theft and similar issues are discussed and punishments, consequences and rule changes are decided by the community.

Having observed this process I'm beginning to think that what we have come to accept as a developmental absolute (within a small range of variability) may actually be largely tied to the cultural norms of child-rearing. I'm beginning to think it's possible that the degree of awareness and understanding of these complex issues might be tied to the degree to which a child is presented with real actionable decisions during childhood. Like brain exercise. I'm beginning to think that our expectations of children might in fact be making them less capable and also delaying maturation ultimately.

I'll give an example from my own childhood. I spent a good deal of my childhood engaged in what would now be considered "extreme sports." Climbing cliffs, going in caves, hiking in the mountains alone. I developed a keen sense of what it means to be close to death, to have the strength of your fingers be the only thing that stood between me and dying in a very literal sense.

The result was that as a teen I engaged in very little risk-taking behavior. I didn't need to rebel or toy with hazard. I knew what hazard was.

The same thing seems to happen with many of the kids going to this school. They seem to demonstrate a level of moral and social understanding that would be not fall within what is considered the normal range.

So how does this relate to the discussion at hand? It would seem that kids need to be directly aware of the consequences of their behaviors, to pay the cost to the community for their misdeeds. Certainly punishments should be tempered to consider the age of the child but to continue to treat kids as terminally unable to comprehend the import of their actions is to do them a disservice. The only way kids are going to grow into morally functional adults is to have them practice being morally functional people growing up.

links: Institute for Democratic Education in America | IDEA

democratic education in action (last 15 minutes or so of the recording: Kid Politics | This American Life


(stepping off soapbox now)

[ghporter]

A minor child touching another minor child should not be seen as sexual anything...unless the touching has as a basis something other than one child's affection (or whatever) for the other. But there is an element of appropriateness, which is usually taught by parents. Touching another person's chest is not overtly sexual. Touching a female's chest in certain ways is subject to her interpretation, which is a big problem for some people.

As for "generalizing" children's psychological and behavioral development, I'm not doing that. Instead, I'm referring to a large body of scientific literature that thoroughly generalizes major milestones in development and potential development. For example, the Hawaii Early Learning Profile is used in many settings to determine if a child's physical, behavioral and cognitive development is within norms. Other tools are used in various settings, especially in schools, and are all based on well researched norms of development. Of course no such tool indicates "by exactly 47 months of age a typical child must: x, y, z", but rather, all such tools give a range of expected earliest and latest ages a "typical" child is able to demonstrate specific physical and psychological skills - and these tools frequently differ in specific earliest and/or latest dates. This type of developmental tool does not imply "no 9 year old child is capable of understanding Subject A," but rather "the likelihood of any 9 year old child being able to understand Subject A beyond the concrete, most obvious level, is very, very low."

Occupational therapists often deal with a mixture of problems that children experience. Children experience symptoms of a variety of disorders quite differently from the way adults do. For example, children with bipolar disorder typically present with what would be called "fast cycling subclinical bipolar symptoms," though in a child these less externally intense swings are actually more difficult to experience than more obvious overt swings in adults. In order to identify atypical behaviors in children, occupational therapists study typical development and typical behavior through the range of ages from birth to adulthood. Because it is important to identify variances from "typical," OTs use the previously mentioned developmental tools to categorize and quantify levels of development, which allows us to say "Johnny is behind in his lateralization and fine motor coordination, compared to typical children of his age range," or "Jane is demonstrating better management of her feelings than is expected at her age, but she seems to be doing that at the expense of being able to attend in class." These developmental milestones have been correlated with specific brain developmental changes throughout childhood. As an example, there are many "pruning" stages in brain development, including a rather important one that deals with the development of language. If language skills are not established by a certain point in the child's development, he or she will be at risk for failing to develop many of them, much like children who do not experience certain vocal sounds as children lose the ability to create those sounds (examples include children who grow up in Japanese speaking homes who lose the ability to differentiate certain sounds such as 'r' and 'l'). The term pruning refers to the shedding of unused synaptic connections at specific developmental stages.

Only a well trained and thoroughly experienced pediatric clinical psychologist or psychiatrist can say "this child is experiencing this psychological disorder," but it isn't hard for a pediatric OT to say "this child is demonstrating at least 9 of the 12 clinical criteria from DSM IV TR for this psychological disorder" because the criteria are almost all straight forward and clear. And most such criteria depend on whether behaviors are age appropriate, which requires both a thorough knowledge of expected developmental processes and the ability to clearly identify all the information and behaviors that demonstrate whether the child is or is not behaving appropriately.

With all that said, I'm not at all claiming that statistical grouping is fool proof. Children are developing physically earlier and earlier, yet most developmental tools are still using norms established decades ago, especially in the "early school age" category. Not too long ago, it was typical for girls to reach puberty at 11 or so, but now 9 is not that uncommon in many groups. While this is only peripherally connected to the subject of this thread, it does call into question expectations of "age appropriate behavior." When children begin to experience hormonal changes associated with puberty, their thought processes are affected, which brings into question whether or not child A is acting appropriately for his/her age.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

A minor child touching another minor child should not be seen as sexual anything...unless the touching has as a basis something other than one child's affection (or whatever) for the other. But there is an element of appropriateness, which is usually taught by parents. Touching another person's chest is not overtly sexual. Touching a female's chest in certain ways is subject to her interpretation, which is a big problem for some people.

As for "generalizing" children's psychological and behavioral development, I'm not doing that. Instead, I'm referring to a large body of scientific literature that thoroughly generalizes major milestones in development and potential development. For example, the Hawaii Early Learning Profile is used in many settings to determine if a child's physical, behavioral and cognitive development is within norms. Other tools are used in various settings, especially in schools, and are all based on well researched norms of development. Of course no such tool indicates "by exactly 47 months of age a typical child must: x, y, z", but rather, all such tools give a range of expected earliest and latest ages a "typical" child is able to demonstrate specific physical and psychological skills - and these tools frequently differ in specific earliest and/or latest dates. This type of developmental tool does not imply "no 9 year old child is capable of understanding Subject A," but rather "the likelihood of any 9 year old child being able to understand Subject A beyond the concrete, most obvious level, is very, very low."

Occupational therapists often deal with a mixture of problems that children experience. Children experience symptoms of a variety of disorders quite differently from the way adults do. For example, children with bipolar disorder typically present with what would be called "fast cycling subclinical bipolar symptoms," though in a child these less externally intense swings are actually more difficult to experience than more obvious overt swings in adults. In order to identify atypical behaviors in children, occupational therapists study typical development and typical behavior through the range of ages from birth to adulthood. Because it is important to identify variances from "typical," OTs use the previously mentioned developmental tools to categorize and quantify levels of development, which allows us to say "Johnny is behind in his lateralization and fine motor coordination, compared to typical children of his age range," or "Jane is demonstrating better management of her feelings than is expected at her age, but she seems to be doing that at the expense of being able to attend in class." These developmental milestones have been correlated with specific brain developmental changes throughout childhood. As an example, there are many "pruning" stages in brain development, including a rather important one that deals with the development of language. If language skills are not established by a certain point in the child's development, he or she will be at risk for failing to develop many of them, much like children who do not experience certain vocal sounds as children lose the ability to create those sounds (examples include children who grow up in Japanese speaking homes who lose the ability to differentiate certain sounds such as 'r' and 'l'). The term pruning refers to the shedding of unused synaptic connections at specific developmental stages.

Only a well trained and thoroughly experienced pediatric clinical psychologist or psychiatrist can say "this child is experiencing this psychological disorder," but it isn't hard for a pediatric OT to say "this child is demonstrating at least 9 of the 12 clinical criteria from DSM IV TR for this psychological disorder" because the criteria are almost all straight forward and clear. And most such criteria depend on whether behaviors are age appropriate, which requires both a thorough knowledge of expected developmental processes and the ability to clearly identify all the information and behaviors that demonstrate whether the child is or is not behaving appropriately.

With all that said, I'm not at all claiming that statistical grouping is fool proof. Children are developing physically earlier and earlier, yet most developmental tools are still using norms established decades ago, especially in the "early school age" category. Not too long ago, it was typical for girls to reach puberty at 11 or so, but now 9 is not that uncommon in many groups. While this is only peripherally connected to the subject of this thread, it does call into question expectations of "age appropriate behavior." When children begin to experience hormonal changes associated with puberty, their thought processes are affected, which brings into question whether or not child A is acting appropriately for his/her age.

The statistics, you're using them backwards. If you have a set of objects where property A (neurodevelopment) and property B (behavior) are correlated, and you observe an object in the set with atypical property B, you don't continue to assume the typical values of property A in that object! In fact the higher confidence you have in the correlation, the more you would be surprised to find typical A values in that object.

Once you start by selecting for outliers, then the "very, very low likelihood" cases are precisely what you should expect to find.

[ghporter]

Uncle Skeleton, you have not worked in pediatrics. Child development is extremely predictable in the typical population, and that is extremely important. But the job of helping children overcome problems that involve identifying atypical developmental status is not simply stating "this 'object' is different." This isn't statistical analysis, it's using clinical observations of behavior and analyzing the behaviors through the use of a set of statistically established norms. What I said is not backwards, it's application. I'll let researchers do the correlation you discuss (these researchers employ statistical analysis throughout their work), and use their results to find where I can assist in improving a child's ability to participate in his or her childhood.

The combination of physical, cognitive, and psychosocial traits that are tracked in development is so complex that nobody can show a meaningful correlation between all traits; it is only possible to state that certain cognitive skills are required in a child By developing a solid understanding of the range of presentations of "typical development," one can more easily identify atypical development. Once a marker for atypical development is found, additional investigation almost always reveals numerous other atypical indications. It is the specific indications of atypical development that are crucial to therapeutic intervention, because the point is to assist the child in overcoming those deficiencies so that he or she can participate in the rest of the developmental process and achieve his or her maximum potential.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Uncle Skeleton, you have not worked in pediatrics. Child development is extremely predictable in the typical population, and that is extremely important. But the job of helping children overcome problems that involve identifying atypical developmental status is not simply stating "this 'object' is different." This isn't statistical analysis, it's using clinical observations of behavior and analyzing the behaviors through the use of a set of statistically established norms. What I said is not backwards, it's application. I'll let researchers do the correlation you discuss (these researchers employ statistical analysis throughout their work), and use their results to find where I can assist in improving a child's ability to participate in his or her childhood.

The combination of physical, cognitive, and psychosocial traits that are tracked in development is so complex that nobody can show a meaningful correlation between all traits; it is only possible to state that certain cognitive skills are required in a child By developing a solid understanding of the range of presentations of "typical development," one can more easily identify atypical development. Once a marker for atypical development is found, additional investigation almost always reveals numerous other atypical indications. It is the specific indications of atypical development that are crucial to therapeutic intervention, because the point is to assist the child in overcoming those deficiencies so that he or she can participate in the rest of the developmental process and achieve his or her maximum potential.

I'm confused what relevance you think this has for this thread(?). The best I can tell, you're saying that cognitive neuroscience would like to wait around and observe this abnormal youth so that one day we can help him through years of therapy and attention, though nothing productive can really happen in the near future. Meanwhile it does nothing to address whether he continues and escalates his abuse of other children. Is that the gist of it?

Or.... I just assumed you were trying to continue the thread topic, but maybe that was too presumptuous?

[Athens]

I like how you toss that in there, abuse of other children.... We have no idea if the kid has any history of this misbehavior and wouldn't start attaching the world abuse to something like this unless there was premeditation, intent and history. Otherwise you would have to label every single kid as a abuser because most at some point touch each others genitals, slap, punch, kick, restrain and emotionally harm other children during the stages of growing up.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I like how you toss that in there, abuse of other children.... We have no idea if the kid has any history of this misbehavior and wouldn't start attaching the world abuse to something like this unless there was premeditation, intent and history. Otherwise you would have to label every single kid as a abuser because most at some point touch each others genitals, slap, punch, kick, restrain and emotionally harm other children during the stages of growing up.

He didn't just "toss that in there", I've been saying that all through the thread. Also, there's quite some difference between between a group of boys holding a girl and forcefully removing her underwear and a boy hitting another in the groin as some type of horseplay. We didn't go around grabbing each other's groins while restraining each other when I was growing up, and I haven't heard of it being common now. It's not normal or acceptable behavior. It's completely logical to remove the offending kid(s) until it can be determined if there's a pattern of them doing such things to others.

[Athens]

The difference is based on perspective. What if your boy at 7 takes a swing at another boy and hits in in the head. You might think he needs to be grounded but its normal for boys to fight. The parent of the boy hit might want your kid removed from the school and labeled a dangerous child and want all kinds of social intervention. Way things are going you might just get sued for something that was once considered horse play. After all if your boy hit another boy its abuse in the eyes of some.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Athens how many times did you order a younger girl to be restrained so you could remove her underpants, while she cried and struggled and tried to fight back? How many times did you ever see this occur, first hand?

I love how you "toss that in there," that "every single kid" is guilty of abuse of this nature at one point or another. Every time you say it, it makes me think there's something you need to confess.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Athens 

The difference is based on perspective. What if your boy at 7 takes a swing at another boy and hits in in the head. You might think he needs to be grounded but its normal for boys to fight. The parent of the boy hit might want your kid removed from the school and labeled a dangerous child and want all kinds of social intervention. Way things are going you might just get sued for something that was once considered horse play. After all if your boy hit another boy its abuse in the eyes of some.

No, it isn't perspective, it's common sense. If kids restrain each other and assault sexual organs they need to be segregated. I don't know of kids who do this stuff, and I don't hear about it happening in other places either, except in this situation. Every single kid doesn't do this sort of thing. It isn't common, and the offenders need to be handled logically, which means removing them from the rest of the school population and verifying if there's a common thread that needs to be dealt with. This is graphic, but what if he pulled down her underwear so he could try oral sex, because he'd seen it on his dad's computer? Who knows? This stuff needs to be sorted out.

[Athens]

"Hold her Hold her " (1 second action) runs over to her (2 second action) pulls at skirt to pant's her underwear included in the action (2 seconds) and a few No, dont stop no from the girl during this. 5 seconds of stupidity. That's how I envisioned what happened. All following a game of catch/tag which includes (Grabbing and pushing) Had it been a boy not a girl it would have been a non issue to every one concerned...

And yes when growing up I saw this kind of thing a few times but it was usually a group of girls, who actually planned it to get at a boy. They would tackle, restrain and try to pant's the boy. What I saw from boys that I can remember is lifting up shirts on girls or snapping the bra's and slapping ass's hard. Also saw a girl kick a guy in the nuts for shooting spit balls at her.

You make it sound like the boy gave orders to another boy after pre planning a rape (Holder her down, restrain her, put her on her back) walks over casually to her, bends down and casually starts to remove the skirt and underwear or places hands into skirt and pulls off the underwear....

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

No, it isn't perspective, it's common sense. If kids restrain each other and assault sexual organs they need to be segregated. I don't know of kids who do this stuff, and I don't hear about it happening in other places either, except in this situation. Every single kid doesn't do this sort of thing. It isn't common, and the offenders need to be handled logically, which means removing them from the rest of the school population and verifying if there's a common thread that needs to be dealt with. This is graphic, but what if he pulled down her underwear so he could try oral sex, because he'd seen it on his dad's computer? Who knows? This stuff needs to be sorted out.

It is perspective otherwise you wouldn't have half the people in this discussion disagreeing with the other half. Half of us think this is way blown out of proportion that its just bad behavior and the other half think its a serious issue and a sexual assault. That is perspective my friend. You see this incident differently from some one else.

[Shaddim]

No, the people who don't see this in the correct way (the way I spelled out) are nutters. You've completely convinced me of this.

[Athens]

Funny that's exactly how I see the people blowing it out to more then it is. See we are not so different after all

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

No, the people who don't see this in the correct way (the way I spelled out) are nutters. You've completely convinced me of this.

Yeah people who think differently to me are all mad too.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

"Hold her Hold her " (1 second action) runs over to her (2 second action) pulls at skirt to pant's her underwear included in the action (2 seconds) and a few No, dont stop no from the girl during this. 5 seconds of stupidity. That's how I envisioned what happened. All following a game of catch/tag which includes (Grabbing and pushing)

You're one sick puppy.

It only takes 5 seconds to fatally stab someone with a pen, or smash her head open with a rock, or push her into traffic. What difference is that supposed to make?

Had it been a boy not a girl it would have been a non issue to every one concerned...

Why shouldn't the standard be different for male attackers? Being raped by a man is a fundamentally different experience than being raped by a woman.

And yes when growing up I saw this kind of thing a few times but it was usually a group of girls, who actually planned it to get at a boy. They would tackle, restrain and try to pant's the boy. What I saw from boys that I can remember is lifting up shirts on girls or snapping the bra's and slapping ass's hard. Also saw a girl kick a guy in the nuts for shooting spit balls at her.

Was the boy crying? Was the boy younger and weaker than them (individually)? Was the boy you? They say one of the problems with sexual assault cases is that the victims blame themselves....

You make it sound like the boy gave orders to another boy after pre planning a rape (Holder her down, restrain her, put her on her back) walks over casually to her, bends down and casually starts to remove the skirt and underwear or places hands into skirt and pulls off the underwear....

This fantasy you describe is not inconsistent with the facts given. It might be this way, and an investigation to answer that question is perfectly appropriate.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

You're one sick puppy.

Your calling me a sick puppy when your obviously envisioning something far worst.... Might want to re-evaluate that comment.

It only takes 5 seconds to fatally stab someone with a pen, or smash her head open with a rock, or push her into traffic. What difference is that supposed to make?

So now your saying a weapon was involved, or threats where used?

Why shouldn't the standard be different for male attackers? Being raped by a man is a fundamentally different experience than being raped by a woman.

So now its a rape, this boy raped her? Standards should be the same between men and woman when it comes to assaults. Just as children should not be held to the same standards as man and woman because its a different world. A child's world is not the same as a adults world.

Was the boy crying? Was the boy younger and weaker than them (individually)?

Ya actually and I even posted a youtube video of such a assault which you obviously think is ok since you didn't comment about it. 4 much older girls beating down a much younger boy and striping him of his cloth while he was crying and screaming for help. But its a boy, you believe in double standards as you already stated above.

[/quote]
This fantasy you describe is not inconsistent with the facts given. It might be this way, and an investigation to answer that question is perfectly appropriate.[/QUOTE]

R U SERIOUS!!!!! Its totally inconsistent with the facts given. You sick disturbed puppy.

[brassplayersrock²]

People would take you way more seriously if you started using ' and the proper you're.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Your calling me a sick puppy when your obviously envisioning something far worst.... Might want to re-evaluate that comment.

The difference is that you don't object.

So now your saying a weapon was involved, or threats where used?

Read it again. I am asking what your "5 second rule" is good for.

But yes, threats were used

So now its a rape, this boy raped her?

I never said that. But think it through, cowboy; what is the underlying reason we have a fear of being stripped (the fear exploited by people who sexually assault for non-sexual reasons like dominance)? I'll give you a hint, it's not because of being cold.

And for all we know, he would have tried to poke her with something if his first strike had been successful. That's how monsters work, they build up stepwise, and gain confidence with every step they manage to get away with.

Standards should be the same between men and woman when it comes to assaults.

That's stupid. Women are smaller and weaker than men. That is a fact.

But even if we insist on parity, overprotection of the stronger group is the only sane method. Under-protecting the weak for the sole purpose of protection-parity would be insane.

Just as children should not be held to the same standards as man and woman because its a different world. A child's world is not the same as a adults world.

They're not. Kids get off extremely light, by comparison. But some things are still forbidden in both worlds. But even so, the punishment for the same crime would be far less.

Ya actually and I even posted a youtube video of such a assault which you obviously think is ok since you didn't comment about it. 4 much older girls beating down a much younger boy and striping him of his cloth while he was crying and screaming for help. But its a boy, you believe in double standards as you already stated above.

Yeah and the police did get involved

I don't think what happened in that video should be allowed either. Far less than that was done to me once as a kid, and I "assaulted" that person pretty good. If I were mattyb I still would, honestly, even though I now regret how far I took it back then.

FYI, don't expect anyone to sit through any youtube links you post. You may not value your own time but some of us do.

This fantasy you describe is not inconsistent with the facts given. It might be this way, and an investigation to answer that question is perfectly appropriate.

Its totally inconsistent with the facts given. You sick disturbed puppy.

I don't believe it's what happened, but looking back through the facts we have nothing that contradicts it. It says nothing about "5 seconds" (it doesn't say he wasn't "casual"), it says the boy did plan it but it doesn't say whether he had planned even more nor how far in advance he had been cooking up this scheme, it also says the boy at first lied about planning even this much, and it says she was restrained but it doesn't say standing.

Show me what facts are inconsistent with it.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Yeah people who think differently to me are all mad too.

In what colors you like? No. In what beer you drink? No. You like to dress like a Teletubby and slow dance while listening to Jamiroquai? Hey, that's your deal. However, if you don't see how this type of thing can screw kids up, then you're as nutty as squirrel ****.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I'm confused what relevance you think this has for this thread(?). The best I can tell, you're saying that cognitive neuroscience would like to wait around and observe this abnormal youth so that one day we can help him through years of therapy and attention, though nothing productive can really happen in the near future. Meanwhile it does nothing to address whether he continues and escalates his abuse of other children. Is that the gist of it?

Or.... I just assumed you were trying to continue the thread topic, but maybe that was too presumptuous?

I did indeed manage to drift off track. I was addressing what I thought was your misunderstanding of my points about "generalizing" behavior expectations in children. My apologies for the derail.

I've been too busy lately to be able to keep up with the whole discussion here, so I'll stop with my inputs unless they actually are on-topic. Again, sorry for not sticking with the topic. I hope my posts have at least communicated my passion for my profession.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I apologize too, gh; we're all basically off topic at this point, and an emotional subject like this one makes it easy to have a thin skin. Please don't censor yourself due to anything I said

[lpkmckenna]

This seems like a suitable place for this story: Disabled boy bullied to death. I just had no idea how terrible it could be.

I just finished reading that story, watching a video about shark fin soup, and reading about a Syrian woman who was beheaded, de-limbed, and de-skinned because her brother was an activist. Thanks internet, but I just can't take any more inhumanity today.

[Athens]

There has been a few high profile kid suicides here too. A lot of the time the schools ignore all complaints, don't do anything and this is what results. Was a story the other day on CNN about a gay kid who even left behind a video blog of his bulling which no one saw in time to save him.

[brassplayersrock²]

Yes, kids can do many awful things, including sexually assaulting one another.

[Spheric Harlot]

I heard the term "sexualized violence" on the radio today, and I think it's rather well-put.

[hart]

ghporter: I think the relevance of your posts lies in that you discuss the accepted behavioral norms for children. Much of this discussion lies in differentiating the meaning and consequences for children's actions from those for adults behaviors. A scientific and cultural understanding of children's development is essential for making wise decisions in this area.