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The Final Dakar
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Feb 14, 2017, 11:59 PM
 
Smoke and mirrors or a conspiracy? Because at the end of the day, that's what you have to believe for Trump to have pulled what is hinted at off.

The latest entry fits in the some interesting places: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/u...ons-trump.html
Phone records and intercepted calls show that members of Donald J. Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and other Trump associates had repeated contacts with senior Russian intelligence officials in the year before the election, according to four current and former American officials.

American law enforcement and intelligence agencies intercepted the communications around the same time they were discovering evidence that Russia was trying to disrupt the presidential election by hacking into the Democratic National Committee, three of the officials said. The intelligence agencies then sought to learn whether the Trump campaign was colluding with the Russians on the hacking or other efforts to influence the election.
Oddly this line sup with something Harry Reid said back in October:


The problem here is obvious. Harry Reid is a partisan hack who's claims need to be taken with a giant grain of salt. At least that's how I saw it October; Partisan pushback for Comey's actions. In context of this article, however, it does look more like Comey put his thumb on the scales, to me.

Between this and Flynn, I figure we'll probably be seeing more of this in the future (I mean it's been hinted at for a while anyway) and I think it deserves it's own thread, even if I don't have much more to say right now.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 15, 2017, 02:13 PM
 
The three previously unnamed associates got named and they're exactly who anyone who's been following his campaign since last year would name.
     
subego
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Feb 15, 2017, 02:31 PM
 
Here's my guess as to the part Reid left out.

Comey has a metric ****ton of dirt, but it's all inadmissible. Comey got it from intelligence sources, who care more about getting the information rather than getting it legally.

So, Comey knows exactly where to look, and is hopefully looking, but he's got to build an actual case, which he needs to hand off to a potentially hostile Justice Department. Cooler heads are playing it by the book.

This is opposed to the alleged hotheads, who are alleged to have threatened what amounts to mutiny.

Allegedly.
     
subego
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Feb 15, 2017, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The three previously unnamed associates got named and they're exactly who anyone who's been following his campaign since last year would name.
Manifort is a gimme, but I can't think of who the other two are.

Bannon is too much to ask for.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 15, 2017, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Here's my guess as to the part Reid left out.

Comey has a metric ****ton of dirt, but it's all inadmissible. Comey got it from intelligence sources, who care more about getting the information rather than getting it legally.

So, Comey knows exactly where to look, and is hopefully looking, but he's got to build an actual case, which he needs to hand off to a potentially hostile Justice Department. Cooler heads are playing it by the book.

This is opposed to the alleged hotheads, who are alleged to have threatened what amounts to mutiny.

Allegedly.
Counterpoint: He spoke about Weiners laptop possibly having emails, but couldn't be sure about that either.

He's basically saying "Where's the press release saying your investigating possible links to Russia from the Trump campaign?"
     
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Feb 15, 2017, 03:17 PM
 
That's where the alleged mutiny theory comes in.

Comey had a choice. Either he talks about the laptop, and gets to control the narrative, or the office New York City does it, and he quite publicly loses control of the Bureau.
     
subego
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Feb 15, 2017, 03:21 PM
 
One thing about pinning down Trump people.

Spies don't necessarily hand over a business card to people saying "spy". They have covers and shit.

That they talked with Russian spies isn't the same as conspiring with them.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 15, 2017, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That's where the alleged mutiny theory comes in.

Comey had a choice. Either he talks about the laptop, and gets to control the narrative, or the office New York City does it, and he quite publicly loses control of the Bureau.
To which I argue if your hand is forced you burn both. Like that Star Trek episode
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 15, 2017, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
One thing about pinning down Trump people.

Spies don't necessarily hand over a business card to people saying "spy". They have covers and shit.

That they talked with Russian spies isn't the same as conspiring with them.
Correct. But that's sort of the point; if you can't trust them don't associate. Also why does a presidential campaign need to communicate with Russia?
     
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Feb 15, 2017, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
To which I argue if your hand is forced you burn both. Like that Star Trek episode
Oooh... sacking a bunch of career agents could get really messy.
     
andi*pandi
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Feb 15, 2017, 05:28 PM
 
Meanwhile, in Connecticut... there is a russian "spy" ship cruising the coastline. Groton CT is home to a large naval base, fyi.

http://whdh.com/news/russian-spy-shi...f-new-england/
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 15, 2017, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Oooh... sacking a bunch of career agents could get really messy.
No, burn Hillary and Trump.
     
subego
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Feb 16, 2017, 12:56 AM
 
This appeals on the surface, but I think the ethics get really dicey, and there's a fundamental difference in the burn profiles of "we have a laptop" versus "a spy told us".
     
subego
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Feb 16, 2017, 02:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Meanwhile, in Connecticut... there is a russian "spy" ship cruising the coastline. Groton CT is home to a large naval base, fyi.

Russian spy ship spotted off coast of New England – Boston News, Weather, Sports | WHDH 7News
We look for iPhone Sasha drop overboard. Replacement cost many rubles.
     
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Feb 16, 2017, 04:09 AM
 
Apart from anything to do with the current communications between Trump personnel and Russia I feel that much of Trumps stance towards Putin and Russia stem from him seeing them as essentially similar. He possibly feels that he understands Putin's psychology. (He may be wrong but he may feel he does).

Essentially Putin seems little difference between what is good for Russia and what is good for Putin. He freely annexes the machinery of the state to run his own life and dispenses favours to friends and allies. His geopolitical ambition for Russia is simply an expression of his own personal desires.

In this I think Trump is remarkably similar. His treatment of the Whitehouse press office and his casual descriptions of a "Winter Whitehouse" seem to be signs he shares this view that the US govt is really just the next step in the journey of Trump Inc. I think this aspect of his personality will come to dominate his behaviour in the coming years. Hopefully the machinery of the US stare is strong enough to either resist or wait out this subversion. The Russian state certainly wasn't. That said I certainly don't think Trump shares Putins ruthless pragmatism or his ability to have people removed at will from his world. I certainly DO think that Trump THINKS he's as "tough" as Putin.
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Feb 16, 2017, 07:34 AM
 
I finally heard the word "Treason" mentioned. Does this have the legs to bring down anyone more important than Flynn?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 16, 2017, 09:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This appeals on the surface, but I think the ethics get really dicey, and there's a fundamental difference in the burn profiles of "we have a laptop" versus "a spy told us".
If you burn Hillary because you cant control your own department, ethics are kind of out the window already.
     
BadKosh
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Feb 16, 2017, 09:49 AM
 
Hillary already gave the Russians all the state secrets by putting it on her unsecure server. BAD DECISION. Again.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 16, 2017, 10:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Hillary already gave the Russians all the state secrets by putting it on her unsecure server. BAD DECISION. Again.
I thought you weren't a fan of assumptions?
     
BadKosh
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Feb 16, 2017, 11:36 AM
 
So you KNOW that the Russians were not one of the many hackers who went through Hillarys server?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 16, 2017, 11:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So you KNOW that the Russians were not one of the many hackers who went through Hillarys server?
Where's the evidence many hackers went through Hillarys server?
     
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Feb 16, 2017, 12:01 PM
 
Let's finish that thought, BadKosh.

So certainly if the Russians were hacking Hillary, which led to private emails being published, giving Trump an edge in the election... Now the Russians are found to be friendly with Trump and his associates... Trump wants to end Obama's sanctions against them for fiddling in our election... Why oh why would someone end the sanctions? Doing the russians favors? More Pay for Play? Unless - they had planned it together, colluded to bypass the democratic process?

Before Chongo comes in there with his video of Obama saying the 80's called... I'm willing to bet Trump was bored that night in 2012, saw the Mitt/Obama debate, called up Putin, and said, "let's have fun. What are you doing in 2016? "
     
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Feb 16, 2017, 12:38 PM
 
Does Trump think he can play everyone against each other? He's like that one arrogant douchebag who thinks he can screw over literally everyone and get away with it. Some want revenge, others just want him out of the way, question is, who will kill him first?

The liberals?
The Russians?
The Evangelicals?
The Intelligence Agencies?
The Jews?
Killary?
ISIS?
Ted Cruz' Wife?
The 1989 Denver Broncos?

Did I miss anyone?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
andi*pandi
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Feb 16, 2017, 12:49 PM
 
Major League Baseball and Patriot Nation should have a shot.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 16, 2017, 12:56 PM
 
Settle down now
     
subego
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Feb 17, 2017, 05:30 AM
 
I'm curious.

IIUC, what happened to the DNC was they got spear phished.

Do people really consider this hacking?

If someone gives me their password, that doesn't make me a hacker, that makes them an idiot.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 17, 2017, 09:29 AM
 
It's because hacking is a catch all that means gain access by illicit means, when phished isn't a term or well known. Also, more clicky headlines
     
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Feb 17, 2017, 11:34 AM
 
Hoping this doesn't come across as me defending H's use of a private email server for State Department emails, which it isn't, but isn't there a bit of history rewriting going on here?

I don't remember any evidence or even suggestion that HER server was 'hacked,' but rather that DNCs email was compromised.

These are two entirely different issues.
     
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Feb 17, 2017, 03:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm curious.

IIUC, what happened to the DNC was they got spear phished.

Do people really consider this hacking?

If someone gives me their password, that doesn't make me a hacker, that makes them an idiot.
and none of it would have mattered if Hillary didn't have so many skeletons in her closet. (I'm not talking about Bill.) What she did to Bernie tanked her, not the Russians or even Trump.
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subego
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Feb 17, 2017, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Hoping this doesn't come across as me defending H's use of a private email server for State Department emails, which it isn't, but isn't there a bit of history rewriting going on here?

I don't remember any evidence or even suggestion that HER server was 'hacked,' but rather that DNCs email was compromised.

These are two entirely different issues.
It was definitely suggested.

Hayden said something along the lines of "I would lose respect for any intelligence agency who hadn't hacked it".
     
subego
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Feb 17, 2017, 07:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's because hacking is a catch all that means gain access by illicit means, when phished isn't a term or well known. Also, more clicky headlines
Media apologist.
     
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Feb 17, 2017, 11:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm curious.

IIUC, what happened to the DNC was they got spear phished.

Do people really consider this hacking?

If someone gives me their password, that doesn't make me a hacker, that makes them an idiot.
Social engineering is one of the oldest forms of hacking. Social engineering is how Feynman cracked all those expensive safes when he was working on the Manhattan Project: he just happened to understand that many people did not change the default combination or used dates of significance. He even tricked people into believing he was really “working” to crack the safe. (Feynman also learnt other, proper ways to crack safes, but most of them use some form of social engineering.)

In any case, your question is just one of semantics.
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subego
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Feb 17, 2017, 11:37 PM
 
It's an important semantic distinction because if asked to describe what hacking entails, the vast majority of people would describe something not even remotely resembling what happened.

Something much closer than hacked would be conned. Russia conned passwords out of the DNC. This rates maybe 2 out of 5 pitchforks, and 1 out of 5 torches.

Compare and contrast with Russia hacked the DNC. That's 4 pitchforks and at least 2¾ torches.
     
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Feb 18, 2017, 12:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It's an important semantic distinction because if asked to describe what hacking entails, the vast majority of people would describe something not even remotely resembling what happened.
Yes, but that's a misconception people have due to a lack of knowledge in this area — and true of many other professions. People are not aware that one of the greatest weaknesses are things like guessable passwords (“nobody will be able to guess that the password is my daughter's first name and the year she was born in”). And only in certain contexts could other security measures be established (there is a reason big hotels no longer allow customers to print from USB keys …), and in many cases that is exploiting good faith we have in other humans.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Something much closer than hacked would be conned. Russia conned passwords out of the DNC. This rates maybe 2 out of 5 pitchforks, and 1 out of 5 torches.
No, a hack is a hack. If you break into someone's home, it doesn't matter whether you had to shatter the door, pick the lock or use a key you surreptitiously copied. Nor should the victim of a burglary be graded on a scale, because it didn't have a deadbolt on the door or let him- or herself be conned into letting thieves make a copy of the key. You can say the DNC made it easy for the hackers, totally agreed, but you make it sound like “it wasn't as bad because they allowed themselves to be duped”.
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subego
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Feb 18, 2017, 10:12 AM
 
The analogy here is getting burgled because of giving someone the key.

Most people would feel differently about that happening versus the door being broken down.
     
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Feb 18, 2017, 01:28 PM
 
Your insurance company certainly would.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 18, 2017, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Media apologist.
You and I are constantly flipping on principle vs pragmatism or dictionary vs commonly accepted definition.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 18, 2017, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The analogy here is getting burgled because of giving someone the key.

Most people would feel differently about that happening versus the door being broken down.
The distinction being you were tricked into giving the key
     
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Feb 18, 2017, 06:36 PM
 
Tricked into giving away the key is much better.

I maintain most feel very different about that then they do about getting the door knocked down.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 18, 2017, 07:20 PM
 
The difference between a scam artist and a safe cracker.
     
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Feb 18, 2017, 08:00 PM
 
An excellent analogy.
     
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Feb 18, 2017, 08:09 PM
 
In reference to the 1st post, Russia and other countries have always tried to "hack" and "influence" US elections, and the US does the same to them. Not a big deal. Just the democrats doing what democrats do best, finding a way to blame someone else for their own failures and lack of foresite. Im pretty sure Hillary had more foreign influence on her side than Trump.
     
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Feb 19, 2017, 01:42 PM
 
I'm sure she wasn't influenced by the 100s of $millions$ donated, by the worst thugs on the planet, to her *ahem* charity. Totally sure.
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Feb 19, 2017, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I maintain most feel very different about that then they do about getting the door knocked down.
But that's just an artifact of people's misconceptions, and people's misconception is precisely why social engineering is such an effective tool at infiltrating networks. My parents use guessable passwords, my mom also at work, and she has access to sensitive information (she works in a hospital).

Often social engineering is the first step to entering a network. You can motivate people to download “protection software” when you are on streaming sites or browse porn. Or make them click on email links. In my brother's company last year, about 1,000 computers (~1/5th of all machines) were infected with ransomware, most likely because of some naughty email.

There are also other forms of hacking that people do not immediately think of. Remember the “cracked” Apple accounts of celebrities who had their private and intimate photos stolen? The attackers combined social engineering google-able information and information that could be obtained from other accounts (e. g. amazon and ebay) in order to successfully do a password reset. As far as I can tell US law does not distinguish how you obtained access.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The difference between a scam artist and a safe cracker.
I think this is not a bad way to think about it. Very often, though, criminals use a combination of both: perhaps you copied a key to a safety deposit box that contains the goodies you are interested in, but you still need to crack the door to the safe. In the end, though, the criminals took something that wasn't theirs.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 20, 2017, 11:50 AM
 
Trump lawyer sent Flynn a plan to lift Russia sanctions: Report
The proposal, which included a peace plan for Ukraine and Russia, was delivered to Flynn by Michael Cohen, the president's personal lawyer, the report said. The sealed plans were reported to have had the support of Felix Sater, a business associate known to have aided Trump in previous dealings with Russia and Andrii Artemenko, a Ukrainian lawmaker.
Cohen, of course, is one of the purported four to have had contact with the Russians during the campaign.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
But that's just an artifact of people's misconceptions, and people's misconception is precisely why social engineering is such an effective tool at infiltrating networks. My parents use guessable passwords, my mom also at work, and she has access to sensitive information (she works in a hospital).

Often social engineering is the first step to entering a network. You can motivate people to download “protection software” when you are on streaming sites or browse porn. Or make them click on email links. In my brother's company last year, about 1,000 computers (~1/5th of all machines) were infected with ransomware, most likely because of some naughty email.

There are also other forms of hacking that people do not immediately think of. Remember the “cracked” Apple accounts of celebrities who had their private and intimate photos stolen? The attackers combined social engineering google-able information and information that could be obtained from other accounts (e. g. amazon and ebay) in order to successfully do a password reset. As far as I can tell US law does not distinguish how you obtained access.
If not qualified, words with broad meanings have a "default" meaning.

The default meaning for "hacked" is an exploit used against a machine, not against a human. This distinction is important because of the investment in resources and knowledge needed to do the former is vastly different than what's needed for the latter.

The continued, unqualified use of the term implies the former.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 08:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Comey has a metric ****ton of dirt, but it's all inadmissible. Comey got it from intelligence sources, who care more about getting the information rather than getting it legally.
I don't think this is necessarily true: even as a staunch opponent of immoral and useless domestic mass surveillance, if the NSA was getting permission for spying on anyone, then it is the Russian ambassador. Leaking this info was a violation of the law, but not collecting it. As American law stands now, much of the mass data collection is legal if a foreign entity is concerned — which is by definition true here. In principle, this information could be made available during an investigation by a special prosecutor or one of the relevant committee's in Congress.
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Feb 21, 2017, 12:00 AM
 
Even if the evidence was legally acquired, that doesn't mean it's admissible.

Likewise, he may have information which can get admitted, but won't because it would reveal surveillance methods.
     
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Feb 21, 2017, 12:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Even if the evidence was legally acquired, that doesn't mean it's admissible.
Admissible for what? It will certainly be admissible for a Congressional investigation (e. g. via a special subcommittee or a special prosecutor), and sensitive matters can be discussed in closed hearings.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Likewise, he may have information which can get admitted, but won't because it would reveal surveillance methods.
Members of the intelligence oversight committees, for instance, have wide-ranging clearance already, so also that isn't a problem.
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Feb 21, 2017, 12:26 AM
 
Admissible in a court of law. Comey is a cop.
     
 
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