[The Godfather]

A continuation to the veteran thread:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...rism-examples/

Disney's Alladin "A Whole New World"

Shakira's "Gipsy" <= only changes the last note

And Macarena is not one bit like Peter Gunn, even in rythm.

[imitchellg5]

Nearly all of Shakira's songs rip off some classic. Black Eyed Peas are another example off the top of my head (Lots of Jackson stuff).

[besson3c]

How about the MC Hammer song "You Can't Touch This"?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How about the MC Hammer song "You Can't Touch This"?

Yeah, that didn't hold up to it's promising title

-t

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How about the MC Hammer song "You Can't Touch This"?

There's a differente between plagiarism and licensed use of a riff to create a new song.

Daft Punk's "Harder Better Faster Stronger" is *entirely* the opening vamp to an Edwin Birdsong number. But that's licensed.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

There's a differente between plagiarism and licensed use of a riff to create a new song.

Daft Punk's "Harder Better Faster Stronger" is *entirely* the opening vamp to an Edwin Birdsong number. But that's licensed.

How does one know which of these were illegal and which were licensed then? I mean, is this public knowledge, or rumor?

[Spheric Harlot]

Follow the lawsuits.

If the song is successful and nobody sued, it was legal.
Edit: Exception is jungle/drum&bass. The entire genre is based around an unlicensed drum break from the Winstons' "Ah-men Brother".

The MC Hammer song was a huge success in both versions - it's not like anything covert was going on. (That was a cover, btw, not a sample; something that probably needs to be distinguished in any discussion about plagiarism.)

[Chongo]

Hip Hop/Rap has been "sampling" since the get-go. "Rapper's Delight" is a rare exception in that it used the entire song with new words. Most Hip Hop/Rap uses bits and pieces.
Some notable plagiarized songs:
He's so Fine/My Sweet Lord
Rocky Mountain Way/The Stake
Stranglehold/Bullet the Blue Sky

[subego]

I always thought that hit by the Bodeans ("Don't Pass Me Over" or something) was a pretty blatant rip of Springsteen's "Badlands".

The riff in Weezer's "Undone (The Sweater Song)" is in the song "S.O.F.T." by Elastica, but I don't expect many people to have gotten deep enough into them to have heard it. IMO, Weezer made an improvement.

A friend of mine wrote a damn fine song. After a week of beginning to hum his song and somehow ending with "House of the Rising Sun", I finally put it together. I don't think he realizes it, and I don't have the heart to tell him.

Does anyone else stumble upon these things for the same reason? I mean, you start humming one song and it consistently switches to another?

[Laminar]

Under Pressure?

edit: Yep, mentioned in old thread.

[-Q-]

Ghostbusters/I Want A New Drug

[Chongo]

I forgot that John Fogerty was sued for for "plagiarizing" one of his own songs: "Run Through the Jungle"/"The Old Man Down the Road"

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

I forgot that John Fogerty was sued for for "plagiarizing" one of his own songs: "Run Through the Jungle"/"The Old Man Down the Road"

[Spheric Harlot]

John Fogerty was sued for for "plagiarizing" one of his own songs: "Run Through the Jungle"/"The Old Man Down the Road" - Google-Suche

First link:
The Old Man Down The Road by John Fogerty Songfacts

Saul Zaentz, who owned the publishing rights to the Creedence Clearwater Revival songs, sued Fogerty because this sounded too much like the 1970 Creedence song "Run Through The Jungle." It may have been the first time an artist was sued for plagiarizing himself. The case was eventually dismissed in Fogerty's favor.

[Oisín]

Ready or Not by the Fugees is the first one that comes to mind.

[Spheric Harlot]

That one I never understood.

That's such blatant sampling - taking an extremely prominent and instantly recognizable vamp from a world-wide hit artist (Enya was EVERYWHERE in the early 90s), using it as the BASIS of your song (I don't think they did anything but add a beat and vocals to it), and then not even *crediting* the originator?

I remember being utterly confused at the time, when I couldn't find a reference to Enya *anywhere*.

That's almost as stupid as German "rapper" Bushido lifting entire tracks from relatively unknown French neo-Classic band Dark Sanctuary, just adding beats and vocals, and not crediting them or asking permission.

They recently took him to court, and he lost, on THIRTEEN songs, all lifted directly from Dark Sanctuary.

Not only does he have to pay a licensing fee appropriate for a national platinum-selling production, but he also owes all royalties on the music, AND all copies of his album must be destroyed, AND all copies of those editions of Germany's best-selling top-of-the-charts compilation (Bravo Superhits Vol. X) containing the affected songs, too. On his dime.

This particular case is made somewhat more mind-boggling by the fact this was the SECOND time he'd been busted (the first one being a sample from Dimmu Borgir). The first time was settled out of court. Dark Sanctuary wasn't as happy to be associated with racism, homophobia, misogyny, and base stupidity, and followed through.

[Oisín]

That's such blatant sampling - taking an extremely prominent and instantly recognizable vamp from a world-wide hit artist (Enya was EVERYWHERE in the early 90s), using it as the BASIS of your song (I don't think they did anything but add a beat and vocals to it), and then not even *crediting* the originator?

Especially when the tune of Boadicea is so very familiar to anyone who’s ever seen Sleepwalkers, which was scarcely four years old when Ready or Not came out.

Plus the chorus is a bit of a rip-off, too, lyric-wise.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Coldplay "Viva La Vida" and Joe Satriani "If I Could Fly"

In the end, equally disposable.

[besson3c]

It's kind of funny to me how melodies can be protected, but not chord progressions, even when the progression can sometimes define the tune.

[KeyLimePi]

You guys are forgetting one of the more famous lawsuits where the Chiffons sued Beatle George Harrison for plagiarizing 'My Sweet Lord' from their 'He's So Fine.' The Chiffons actually won, although the judge decided that Harrison probably didn't do it intentionally, but "subconsciously."

George Harrison

Note: I just listened to that Shakara song and it doesn't sound anything like 'Whole New World' to me.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi 

You guys are forgetting one of the more famous lawsuits where the Chiffons sued Beatle George Harrison for plagiarizing 'My Sweet Lord' from their 'He's So Fine.'

No, we're not?

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...s/#post3989951

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi 

Note: I just listened to that Shakara song and it doesn't sound anything like 'Whole New World' to me.

*ahem*

Her name's "ShakIra".

"Shakara" is a sensational album by Fela Kuti - highly recommended!

[SeSawaya]

really nothing new can ever be written anymore. Over time and the use of only 12 notes, 14 permutations of 16th notes for example, it's all been covered, somewhere by someone. It's just revolves around "does it make money, & can I get some?"

Besides publishing companies will license anything to anyone for a buck. Just use the right channels and you'll never be sued.

[KeyLimePi]

Uh...thanks for the correction SH. Seriously though, maybe spend a little time outside.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi 

Uh...thanks for the correction SH. Seriously though, maybe spend a little time outside.

"The only reason I didn't know the correct spelling is because I have a life, unlike you."

Well done.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi 

Uh...thanks for the correction SH. Seriously though, maybe spend a little time outside.

Ah. I see you haven't heard of Fela Kuti, or of that album. I mentioned it only on the off chance that maybe that was what you were thinking of.

Two notes:

1.) Dealing with music IS my life - or a large part of it, at least.

2.) If you have no idea who Fela Kuti is, and have never heard or danced to "Lady" off his album "Shakara", you seriously need to get a life.

[Renato]

what about numerous cliches used by different artists? I mean most blues songs have only three chords. Is anyone who plays blues becomes a thief?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Renato 

what about numerous cliches used by different artists? I mean most blues songs have only three chords. Is anyone who plays blues becomes a thief?

The problem with this thinking is where does that stop? All American music is derived from swing and the blues, if you really want to get into this How about the cadence? Most music in general incorporates the cadences, we've been doing that for centuries including back in the common practice period of classical music...

There is very little random invention in life, just about everything is due to what came before it. What makes the plagiarism thing interesting to me is when something other than lyrics or a repetitive groove are the most defining thing in a song, can that be claimed? I know of many songs that have a rhythmic feel that remind me of another song, and a gazillion songs that incorporate the same chord changes. Your blues example is a good one, as is the I Got Rhythm bridge (Rhythm changes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which has been used in songs ranging from the Flintstones theme to a number of bebop tunes.

In jazz plagiarism is often avoided by coming up with a contrafact melody (Contrafact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which is a different melody on the same chord progression. Why is it that this is fair game even though jazz musicians can easily identify the progression of a contrafact pretty easily? Heck, I think they are even legally allowed to make it known that their piece is a contrafact of another... Contrafacts exist in classical music as well.

[Laminar]

YouTube - Axis of Awesome - 4 Four Chord Song (with song titles)

[Spheric Harlot]

Yeah - works really well if you simplify the songs, use parallel keys and only play the first four bars.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The problem with this thinking is where does that stop? All American music is derived from swing and the blues, if you really want to get into this

Is it? I'd like to see you make a case for that being true for something like Elliott Carter.

How about the cadence? Most music in general incorporates the cadences, we've been doing that for centuries including back in the common practice period of classical music...

Way longer than that, if you're referring to the concept of the cadence rather than just the V-I progression (and if you are referring to V-I, then there is a ton of twentieth and twenty-first century classical music that doesn't have anything like it).

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Is it? I'd like to see you make a case for that being true for something like Elliott Carter.

When I say American music I refer to music that originated from America, I think. Elliott Carter is building on a music that originated in Europe.

Way longer than that, if you're referring to the concept of the cadence rather than just the V-I progression (and if you are, then there is a ton of twentieth and twenty-first century classical music that doesn't have anything like it).

Yup! I do realize that the cadence was prevalent in early music as well, but you're right for pointing that out since I didn't say that

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

When I say American music I refer to music that originated from America, I think. Elliott Carter is building on a music that originated in Europe.

Well, if you're going to make that distinction, then what about all the influences from African music on American popular music?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Well, if you're going to make that distinction, then what about all the influences from African music on American popular music?

This is a good point, but if you want the so-called academic/historical answer, jazz and the blues (which are closely related) were a culmination of the direct influence of European brass bands and music brought overseas from Africa (the environment of New Orleans at the time being a significant variable to how all of this came to be). This fusion became uniquely American.

It's funny... The more I live and listen to what musicians I respect say, the more I come to realize that the best musicians in any genre have really checked out what came before them, where things got started, and have a feel for the history of their music and what helped create their music. What I do wonder though is as time progresses, to what extent will that cut off point shift? I mean, you could go back to Louis Armstrong or other important jazz and blues artists to trace hip hop back to where it got started, but how many people are going to be inclined to do that 100 years from now?

[Ghoser777]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

YouTube - Axis of Awesome - 4 Four Chord Song (with song titles)

That was done before:

YouTube - The Four Chords Song

And I'm pretty sure that was originally filmed before 2006.

[The Final Dakar]

Don't hold back, Timeline his ass!

[Ghoser777]

Originally Posted by Ghoser777 

That was done before:

YouTube - The Four Chords Song

And I'm pretty sure that was originally filmed before 2006.

And it's the same guy on both videos - Benny Davis.

:hand to face:

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This is a good point, but if you want the so-called academic/historical answer, jazz and the blues (which are closely related) were a culmination of the direct influence of European brass bands and music brought overseas from Africa (the environment of New Orleans at the time being a significant variable to how all of this came to be). This fusion became uniquely American.

Ah, but that went the other way, as well — many composers in the classical tradition, although obviously not all, incorporated idioms from the popular tradition as well. How do you classify something like Gershwin's Piano Concerto or his Rhapsody in Blue? Do those not count as "American music" simply because they are building on the European tradition for the form and the instrumentation? How about Aaron Copland? Can you really claim that his stuff was not "American music" just because it was based on a European model?

American classical music in the latter half of the twentieth century was in a similar place, really — the massive immigration from Europe in that century due to all the horrific things that happened over there resulted in an awful lot of the big names in the post-1945 classical music world to be hailing from the US. Henry Cowell, Ruth Crawford, Roger Sessions, Aaron Copland, Samuel Barber, Elliott Carter, John Cage, Milton Babbitt, Leonard Bernstein, George Rochberg, George Crumb, Terry Riley, Steve Reich, Philip Glass, John Adams, William Bolcom, John Corigliano — these are/were all big names. Some even defined genres. Some of them used influences from popular music, others did not. Do all of these not count as "American music"? Heck, Mozart's music was mostly in forms originated by the Italians — he didn't just pull it all out of whole cloth — but that doesn't give Austria any less claim to it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Ah, but that went the other way, as well — many composers in the classical tradition, although obviously not all, incorporated idioms from the popular tradition as well. How do you classify something like Gershwin's Piano Concerto or his Rhapsody in Blue? Do those not count as "American music" simply because they are building on the European tradition for the form and the instrumentation? How about Aaron Copland? Can you really claim that his stuff was not "American music" just because it was based on a European model?

American classical music in the latter half of the twentieth century was in a similar place, really — the massive immigration from Europe in that century due to all the horrific things that happened over there resulted in an awful lot of the big names in the post-1945 classical music world to be hailing from the US. Henry Cowell, Ruth Crawford, Roger Sessions, Aaron Copland, Samuel Barber, Elliott Carter, John Cage, Milton Babbitt, Leonard Bernstein, George Rochberg, George Crumb, Terry Riley, Steve Reich, Philip Glass, John Adams, William Bolcom, John Corigliano — these are/were all big names. Some even defined genres. Some of them used influences from popular music, others did not. Do all of these not count as "American music"? Heck, Mozart's music was mostly in forms originated by the Italians — he didn't just pull it all out of whole cloth — but that doesn't give Austria any less claim to it.

Yes, this is a good point!

This is where these sorts of labels definitely start to become sloppy. I probably should have included a "so-called" in my reference to "American" music. Influences definitely crossed the pond.

In the same token, can you call a MLB baseball team an "American" team if it is comprised largely of latino players, or an NHL hockey team an "American" team if it is comprised largely of Canadians and Europeans? I think that we start claiming things when we somehow sponsor greatness, in which case your Gershwin's would indeed be American music. Sometimes these sorts of things seem to be based on the birth place. Gershwin was an American composer, so even if the music he created was arguably originally derived in Europe his music is therefore American, according to this line of thinking...

It's definitely not cut and dry!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

When I say American music I refer to music that originated from America, I think. Elliott Carter is building on a music that originated in Europe.

What American music - apart from Native American tribes' - is NOT based on European music?

Even funk - the most purely African-derived form of American music - is tonally based on European scales.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

What American music - apart from Native American tribes' - is NOT based on European music?

Even funk - the most purely African-derived form of American music - is tonally based on European scales.

Technically, no, I don't agree...

Most funk is based on pentatonic scales, and the so-called Blues scale is just a minor pentatonic with a #11/b5. However, that key #11/b5 or "blue" note is thought to have derived from Africa and is the basis of the blues, which was not a European scale.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Technically, no, I don't agree...

Most funk is based on pentatonic scales, and the so-called Blues scale is just a minor pentatonic with a #11/b5. However, that key #11/b5 or "blue" note is thought to have derived from Africa and is the basis of the blues, which was not a European scale.

Which country created the brown note?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Which country created the brown note?

Finland?

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Technically, no, I don't agree...

Most funk is based on pentatonic scales, and the so-called Blues scale is just a minor pentatonic with a #11/b5. However, that key #11/b5 or "blue" note is thought to have derived from Africa and is the basis of the blues, which was not a European scale.

The harmony of the twelve-bar blues pattern is all I, IV, and V chords, though, which are all straight out of Rameau.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The harmony of the twelve-bar blues pattern is all I, IV, and V chords, though, which are all straight out of Rameau.

That is the intervallic relationship between the chords, there are many different kinds of I, IV, and V chords (i.e. minor, major, dominant, half and whole diminished) the chords themselves are all dominant chords, which are harmonically unstable and essentially leave the door wide open for all sorts of musical choices. Dominant chords have been around forever, centuries before the blues, what was done with them in the invention of the blues was quite new though, and also very racially black in origin as well.

[CharlesS]

Yes, it built upon and expanded a European harmonic tradition, just as all the American composers I mentioned did as well.

Of course that European tradition doesn't really constitute "European music", I guess, since it includes tons of influence from the Middle East (including most of the instruments) and ancient Greece (much of the original music theory), and before that it all descended from Gregorian chant, which according to Grout was originally based on the Hebrew chant tradition. And the Hebrew chant tradition was probably based on some older tradition that's now lost to history. Oh crap.

The only completely original music there's ever been would probably date back to the first caveman to get the idea to hit a rock rhythmically with a stick.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Yes, it built upon and expanded a European harmonic tradition, just as all the American composers I mentioned did as well.

I don't think so. I think a historian will tell you that there was a big fork in music here because those Africans weren't exposed to or allowed to participate in European white man's music, so they made up their own thing. This musical segregation existing up until modern times actually, I know somebody who won a blind audition to an orchestra here but wasn't accepted because he was a black man (now an older black man). So, because of this divide I don't think it is fair to say that the blues was the result of Europe, or that the blues was anything but an African/black thing. In fact, jazz came about because of the mixing of white and black cultures, but this didn't happen in the eastern hemisphere.

Of course that European tradition doesn't really constitute "European music", I guess, since it includes tons of influence from the Middle East (including most of the instruments), and before that it all descended from Gregorian chant, which according to Grout was originally based on the Hebrew chant tradition. And the Hebrew chant tradition was probably based on some older tradition that's now lost to history. Oh crap.

The only completely original music there's ever been was when the first caveman got the idea to hit a rock rhythmically with a stick.

I guess it all goes back to cavemen and women banging on rocks with sticks, huh?

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't think so. I think a historian will tell you that there was a big fork in music here because those Africans weren't exposed to or allowed to participate in European white man's music, so they made up their own thing. This musical segregation existing up until modern times actually, I know somebody who won a blind audition to an orchestra here but wasn't accepted because he was a black man (now an older black man). So, because of this divide I don't think it is fair to say that the blues was the result of Europe, or that the blues was anything but an African/black thing. In fact, jazz came about because of the mixing of white and black cultures, but this didn't happen in the eastern hemisphere.

It wasn't "the result of Europe." It was, as you said earlier, a fusion of African and European styles, and contained elements of both.

I guess what I'm responding to here is what I'm seeing as a sort of weird elitism, to claim that only one particular style of music can be considered as uniquely American when even that style owes a large debt to building blocks from other lands. It may be the most obvious American style, but it's by no means the only American style of music.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Technically, no, I don't agree...

Most funk is based on pentatonic scales, and the so-called Blues scale is just a minor pentatonic with a #11/b5. However, that key #11/b5 or "blue" note is thought to have derived from Africa and is the basis of the blues, which was not a European scale.

Good point.

Pentatonic scales are pretty much indigenous to most European, African, Asian, and Native American cultures - and the blue note does indicate that funk, in particular, is primarily derived from slaves' African traditions (as is Blues).

Jazz, however, developed - at least in a large part - from Ragtime/Dixieland, which is very much rooted in European musical culture (not exclusively, obviously).

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The harmony of the twelve-bar blues pattern is all I, IV, and V chords, though, which are all straight out of Rameau.

Funk will often enough contain only one or two chords, with *maybe* a third chord to impress the girls in the bridge.