Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

dzp111 · May 15, 2009, 04:49 PM

It's occurred to me that I haven't heard anything about the Ford Motor Company since the recession began. No bailout needed (seemingly), no layoffs, no closures.. nada.

Anyone here know anything about this?

Is the Mustang the saviour? : )

Art Vandelay · May 15, 2009, 04:58 PM

You must not pay much attention to the news. They've renegotiated their UAW contract, eliminated a large chunk of debt, and raised cash for the VEBA via a stock offering. All of this in the last couple of months. They've had closures and layoffs but they did most of it earlier. More are still possible if things get worse as they've stated.

They are further along in their turnaround than the others.

Salty · May 15, 2009, 05:14 PM

So if they're further along why not stimulate them more than the others instead of throwing away cash?

dzp111 · May 15, 2009, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

You must not pay much attention to the news. They've renegotiated their UAW contract, eliminated a large chunk of debt, and raised cash for the VEBA via a stock offering. All of this in the last couple of months. They've had closures and layoffs but they did most of it earlier. More are still possible if things get worse as they've stated.

Au contraire Art, I watch tons of news and read countless RSS newsfeeds on a daily basis. (Mostly all Canadian though). And I kid you not, I haven't seen Ford mentioned at all (at least where bailouts are concerned), but I will take your word for it.

So, they cleaned house (sorta-speak) before all hell broke loose?

ort888 · May 15, 2009, 06:16 PM

They still have all of their Nazi gold.

ghporter · May 15, 2009, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

They still have all of their Nazi gold.

??!!???!!!

Ford saw the writing on the wall early and started doing things. They have divested or started the divestment of a number of their brands (I don't know if SAAB is going to be around for a while) and tightened a lot of belts. Having a FAMILY running such a company helps a lot. William Clay Ford Jr.and Edsel Ford II are on the board, William Clay Ford (Sr.) is a director emeritus, and William Clay Ford Jr. is the chairman. It's very much still a family business. It doesn't really do to allow the family's business to go down the crapper...

smacintush · May 15, 2009, 06:57 PM

They did more than just "tightened their belts". They literally collateralized EVERYTHING asset they have…including the Ford name if I am not mistaken. They bet it all on black.

So basically if they can't make a lasting change to their company they will be Obama's bitch in a few years anyway. I hope and I doubt that will happen though. Things like their hybrid technology and the 2.0L 350 hp EVO that will be out in a couple years are encouraging.

Phileas · May 15, 2009, 07:24 PM

Ford builds the best cars of any US auto maker, IMO.

Additionally, they also managed to get a healthy slice of the European market, simply by bothering to understand and react to European car culture. The Ford Fiesta has long been a staple small car over there, the Ford Transit Van is the quintessential delivery van in Western Europe.

Kerrigan · May 15, 2009, 08:31 PM

I read a recent Wall Street Journal article about this.

They restructured their debt privately without the aid of the federal government, before the economic crash.

A lot of their debt went towards creating new lines of cars that are doing well (Focus, Fusion, Edge, etc).

They have a coherent lineup, unlike GM which has 8 different domestic brands and countless overlapping models.

They shed their unprofitable European brands like Jaguar and Range Rover.

All of this means that they do not qualify for a bailout, and at the end of the day they could be at a disadvantage to GM etc because they won't get federal debt restructuring and bailout cash.

dzp111 · May 15, 2009, 08:37 PM

All of this means that they do not qualify for a bailout, and at the end of the day they could be at a disadvantage to GM etc because they won't get federal debt restructuring and bailout cash.

Sounds like they don't and won't need it. Kudos to Ford. My next car's a Mustang anyway.

: )

quesera · May 15, 2009, 10:21 PM

My visit to the Ford headquarters in Dearborn last summer was all at once unsettling and inspiring. Though obviously a PR/museum tour, I wanted to believe all the good things. My family was a Ford family for years. My first two cars were Fords (#3 and #4 were Toyota and MINI). i want to believe in their success, but dying downtown Detroit and the stopped in time truck plant assembly line were ominous portents of things to come. I hope they can make good business decisions and reinvent the auto industry. They certainly invented it the first time around.

d4nth3m4n · May 15, 2009, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

(I don't know if SAAB is going to be around for a while)

GM owns/ed Saab. Ford had Volvo.

ort888 · May 15, 2009, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

??!!???!!!

Ford Motor Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kerrigan · May 15, 2009, 11:27 PM

Right, I understand Volvo may be on their way out.

I don't have the figures, but I thought that Volvo was the best performing European brand that Ford owned.

Anecdote: I see Volvos everywhere, and I see far more of them than their GM counterpart, Saab.

Opinion: Volvos are much better cars than Saabs. Saabs, like most other GM brands, look ugly to me, and just seem "off" for some reason.

iMOTOR · May 16, 2009, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Saabs, like most other GM brands, look ugly to me, and just seem "off" for some reason.

I’m pretty sure that for the past few years, SAAB vehicles are just rebranded Saturn models.

GM is the Microsoft of the auto industry; takeover good companies, and then destroy them.

Laminar · May 16, 2009, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by iMOTOR

I’m pretty sure that for the past few years, SAAB vehicles are just rebranded Saturn models.

GM is the Microsoft of the auto industry; takeover good companies, and then destroy them.

I'm pretty sure one of the Saabs was a rebranded Subaru Impreza/WRX.

Laminar · May 16, 2009, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by dzp111

Au contraire Art, I watch tons of news and read countless RSS newsfeeds on a daily basis. (Mostly all Canadian though). And I kid you not, I haven't seen Ford mentioned at all (at least where bailouts are concerned), but I will take your word for it.

So, they cleaned house (sorta-speak) before all hell broke loose?

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...y-gm-chrysler/

Forget your fancy news feeds, keep your eye on that thread.

sek929 · May 16, 2009, 03:10 AM

As long as they continue to make the F-150 as good as it is they'll be fine. Surprisingly enough Ford cars have really make some serious headway into the Japanese market lately if not in sales then in quality, gas efficiency and standard options.

OreoCookie · May 16, 2009, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by iMOTOR

I’m pretty sure that for the past few years, SAAB vehicles are just rebranded Saturn models.

GM is the Microsoft of the auto industry; takeover good companies, and then destroy them.

Actually Saabs are rebranded Opels (the platform is developed by Opel in Germany) and the Opel is also rebadged as Saturn.

Regarding Ford, I think they're the only ones of the Big 3 who can make it. They don't have such a strange brand strategy that GM has and they have ready access to smaller, more ecofriendly cars.

Originally Posted by sek929

Surprisingly enough Ford cars have really make some serious headway into the Japanese market lately if not in sales then in quality, gas efficiency and standard options.

It's not that surprising, they only have to offer models in the US that they offer in Europe. A while ago, economic 4-cylinder cars did not have the same reputation that they do in Europe (regardless of actual power and torque).

ctt1wbw · May 16, 2009, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by dzp111

It's occurred to me that I haven't heard anything about the Ford Motor Company since the recession began. No bailout needed (seemingly), no layoffs, no closures.. nada.

Anyone here know anything about this?

Is the Mustang the saviour? : )

If the Mustang is the saviour, then I am at a loss as to how and why. That's a frakkin monstrosity of it what a Mustang is supposed to look like. Ford had a classic Mustang fastback in the 66 and 67 and 68, and then ruined it with the new one.

I think Ford's bread and butter is the F series trucks, even then I am not too fond of that one. The interiors of new Fords are great, but the exterior of the F series leaves a lot to be desired, imho.

ctt1wbw · May 16, 2009, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

I'm pretty sure one of the Saabs was a rebranded Subaru Impreza/WRX.

I think you're talking about the Saab 9x or something like that. I test drove the 9-3 sedans and almost bought one. I loved it.

Spheric Harlot · May 16, 2009, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Phileas

Ford builds the best cars of any US auto maker, IMO.

Additionally, they also managed to get a healthy slice of the European market, simply by bothering to understand and react to European car culture. The Ford Fiesta has long been a staple small car over there, the Ford Transit Van is the quintessential delivery van in Western Europe.

Transit? Not on the continent.

It's VW and the Opel/Nissan/Renault/Citroën/Mercedes, but few Transits.

Everything else you write is true, though.

Spheric Harlot · May 16, 2009, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Opinion: Volvos are much better cars than Saabs. Saabs, like most other GM brands, look ugly to me, and just seem "off" for some reason.

Saabs *used to* be quirky, in a great way, and still have a cult following because they did so many things so differently. People loved their Saabs.

GM pretty much destroyed everything that made Saab Saab.

Spheric Harlot · May 16, 2009, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

I think Ford's bread and butter is the F series trucks

I'm pretty sure they're the last of a dying breed that's turned the US manufacturers necrotic.

Commercial transport purchases have all but dried up at the moment, and the cars that people are actually buying now (at least in Europe) are compacts and fuel-efficient family cars.

ctt1wbw · May 16, 2009, 06:26 AM

That may be so, but there are too many farmers and commercial industry and family owned businesses here in the US that rely on trucks to do business. Ever seen a landscaping business run with a Ford Fiesta?

Spheric Harlot · May 16, 2009, 07:03 AM

Even when the economy was NOT in the dumps, were those "farmers and commercial industry and family-owned businesses" who needed the F-series truck (as opposed to more versatile transport vehicles such as vans) "Ford's bread and butter"?

Doubtful.

OreoCookie · May 16, 2009, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

That may be so, but there are too many farmers and commercial industry and family owned businesses here in the US that rely on trucks to do business. Ever seen a landscaping business run with a Ford Fiesta?

Who says anything about a Fiesta? Pick a Mondeo/Passat station wagon, if you're a plumber or so, there is a non-zero probability you have one of those. If you need something bigger, you have a Sprinter-class van (also available as a truck, but most people in Europe prefer vans). How do you think carpenters, plumbers and farmers transport their stuff in other countries? In many, many cases, you can do without a `truck' à la F150. And if you need one, you get one -- but not with an anemic 5 l V8, but rather a torqey diesel engine.

ctt1wbw · May 16, 2009, 07:28 AM

Yeah, I'm going to spend more money on a Sprinter, which are not exactly on every lot, than a pickup. A Sprinter costs more than my Ram 1500 quad cab for crying out loud.

ctt1wbw · May 16, 2009, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Even when the economy was NOT in the dumps, were those "farmers and commercial industry and family-owned businesses" who needed the F-series truck (as opposed to more versatile transport vehicles such as vans) "Ford's bread and butter"?

Doubtful.

Maybe you should drive around Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Missouri, Virginia, West Virginia, et al. Look at what farmers and construction people and lawn car and landscaping businesses are driving. It isn't a van or a Sprinter. Granted, Fedex and UPS might use Sprinters and I've seen Ambulances which are built on a Sprinter, but for the most part people use trucks. And yes, I've been to all those states and saw nothing but Ford, Dodge and Chevy trucks.

I live in Virginia now. Just up the road from me are thousands and thousands and thousands of acres of farms and dairy cows. Everyone here drives trucks.

ctt1wbw · May 16, 2009, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Who says anything about a Fiesta? Pick a Mondeo/Passat station wagon, if you're a plumber or so, there is a non-zero probability you have one of those. If you need something bigger, you have a Sprinter-class van (also available as a truck, but most people in Europe prefer vans). How do you think carpenters, plumbers and farmers transport their stuff in other countries? In many, many cases, you can do without a `truck' à la F150. And if you need one, you get one -- but not with an anemic 5 l V8, but rather a torqey diesel engine.

Oh, a passat wagon. Ever seen the cost to repair a VW compared to that of a Ford or a Dodge truck? How many VW service and repair places are going to be near farmland? Hell, the nearest Dodge dealer from me is in Harrisonburg, which is about a 40 minute drive. The nearest Ford dealer is in Luray, which is about 10 minutes from here.

OreoCookie · May 16, 2009, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

Yeah, I'm going to spend more money on a Sprinter, which are not exactly on every lot, than a pickup. A Sprinter costs more than my Ram 1500 quad cab for crying out loud.

Then get whatever is cheaper. Won't matter much if Chrysler and GM are belly up, because they can't make a sufficient amount of money with their line-up.

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

Maybe you should drive around Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Missouri, Virginia, West Virginia, et al. Look at what farmers and construction people and lawn car and landscaping businesses are driving. ...

I live in Virginia now. Just up the road from me are thousands and thousands and thousands of acres of farms and dairy cows. Everyone here drives trucks.

Just because that's what they're driving now doesn't mean they need it or could make do with a different type of car.

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

Oh, a passat wagon. Ever seen the cost to repair a VW compared to that of a Ford or a Dodge truck? How many VW service and repair places are going to be near farmland? Hell, the nearest Dodge dealer from me is in Harrisonburg, which is about a 40 minute drive. The nearest Ford dealer is in Luray, which is about 10 minutes from here.

Slow down here. I was talking about a particular class and size of car rather than a specific model. I'm saying that in many cases you can make do with that car (and a hanger if you need to) and you don't need to get a truck. (The Mondeo is a Ford, by the way.)

In many cases, Americans drive trucks, because they like trucks -- even if they don't need them. Who am I to argue, each to its own. But you shouldn't mix `want to drive a truck' and `absolutely need a truck.'

ctt1wbw · May 16, 2009, 07:53 AM

Well, the last time I check the Hammer and Sickle wasn't flying over the White House. People can chose whatever they want to drive. And vans aren't what people who need a truck chose to drive. I drive a Ram 1500 because I want to. Plus, it was my retirement gift to myself.

And the quality of Ford, Chevy and Dodge trucks has nothing to do with their financial situation. They make the best trucks in the world, imho. Plus, to think about it... I saw hardly a single foreign truck. A few Tundras and a Titan or two.

ghporter · May 16, 2009, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

GM owns/ed Saab. Ford had Volvo.

That was quite the "oops," wasn't it. Ford is apparently trying to sell/has sold Volvo, and GM may still have a stake in Saab. Or not...

At one time Ford owned Jaguar-you could tell when some Jags started looking like better-styled Taruses. Didn't they also have part or Land Rover?

Spheric Harlot · May 16, 2009, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

Well, the last time I check the Hammer and Sickle wasn't flying over the White House. People can chose whatever they want to drive. And vans aren't what people who need a truck chose to drive. I drive a Ram 1500 because I want to. Plus, it was my retirement gift to myself.

Vans aren't what people who need a truck choose to drive. Well, duh.

Vans are what people who need vans choose to drive.

And, as you so cleverly point out using yourself as an example, there's an awful lot of people who drive trucks who really don't need them.

And as for freedom of choice (hooray for you): It doesn't mean squat if the company goes under, does it?

ctt1wbw · May 16, 2009, 09:18 AM

Okay, ca$h, I don't really think people need other people's permission (OPP) to drive trucks. I happen to like them. I'm 6'2" and about 230 pounds. It's easier to get into a bigger higher vehicle than a smaller one.

Laminar · May 16, 2009, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

That was quite the "oops," wasn't it. Ford is apparently trying to sell/has sold Volvo, and GM may still have a stake in Saab. Or not...

At one time Ford owned Jaguar-you could tell when some Jags started looking like better-styled Taruses. Didn't they also have part or Land Rover?

The Jaguar X-Type was based on Ford's CDW27 platform - the same platform as the Contour, Mystique, and '99-up Mercury Cougar. I know of one person currently adapting a Jaguar X-Type AWD system onto his Contour.

OreoCookie · May 16, 2009, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

Okay, ca$h, I don't really think people need other people's permission (OPP) to drive trucks. I happen to like them. I'm 6'2" and about 230 pounds. It's easier to get into a bigger higher vehicle than a smaller one.

It's not about permission. It's about the fact that car companies that have relied on the sales of trucks and SUVs for too long are on the verge of bankruptcy. From the looks of it, only Ford has a good chance to survive.

Freedom of choice doesn't guarantee you that you'll be able to afford the TCO of your truck.

ctt1wbw · May 16, 2009, 10:51 AM

They haven't "relied" upon the sales of those vehicles. Each of the Big 3 has cars, too. People just wanted to buy trucks and suv's. Foreign automakers have cars, trucks, and suv's, too.

sek929 · May 16, 2009, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Who says anything about a Fiesta? Pick a Mondeo/Passat station wagon, if you're a plumber or so, there is a non-zero probability you have one of those. If you need something bigger, you have a Sprinter-class van (also available as a truck, but most people in Europe prefer vans). How do you think carpenters, plumbers and farmers transport their stuff in other countries? In many, many cases, you can do without a `truck' à la F150. And if you need one, you get one -- but not with an anemic 5 l V8, but rather a torqey diesel engine.

Ever drag tools out of a station wagon day after day? Ever driven on a muddy jobsite before? Ever had to carry something to tall for a regular vehicle?

Of course we haven't used a pickup as our main work vehicle for a while, we use the GMC cargo van with a 3/4 ton chassis and an 'anemic' 5 L V8. If we need bed space we use our F-450 7.3L diesel with an 8' x 12' dump bed. Now, this is because my father can afford multiple vehicles that are tailored to each use, but most people starting out in construction would have to be retarded not to own a pickup with a set of racks on it. I got a V6 Sonoma to try and cut down on the fuel costs I would accrue but sometimes 1300 lbs just isn't enough payload. The pickup truck in an incredibly versatile vehicle, and we make 'em damn good here in the USA.

I'll agree that plenty of people buy pickups that don't need them, but the rear wheel hop and terrible gas mileage are their penance.

ghporter · May 16, 2009, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

They haven't "relied" upon the sales of those vehicles. Each of the Big 3 has cars, too. People just wanted to buy trucks and suv's. Foreign automakers have cars, trucks, and suv's, too.

The majority of Ford's income from the private sector over the last several years has been from the F150 and larger trucks. When gas hit $4.50/gal last summer in a lot of places, the F150 suddenly stopped being such a wonder-vehicle for everybody (many F150 owners bought it for no other reason than their friends had one), and sales dropped like a stone down a well. Ford proactively took this very seriously and re-engineered the F150, so it's not "just a truck" in any way. The F150 is still selling.

The other biggies overinvested in large-vehicle lines to the extent that they were not even doing much to promote their cars, in some cases not even really updating them for new model years. That gave them more upfront income, but has resulted in "irrelevant" cars that haven't been selling since last summer-a MAJOR cash flow problem for both GM and Chrysler though more of a problem for Chrysler.

Spheric Harlot · May 16, 2009, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

Okay, ca$h,

Back on ignore, I suppose.

*plunk*

rickey939 · May 16, 2009, 02:46 PM

KIA/Hyundai is doing great through this as well.

iranfromthezoo · May 16, 2009, 06:47 PM

I am a Ford guy and I have always been a Ford guy. I have owned the F-150, which was my favorite vehicle to ever own. I then went to an explorer and now own a Ford Fusion, which is a very nice car and I love it. It gets me 30 mpg which I like a lot. I am going to get this car paid for and then purchase a used F-150 sooner or later. Living here in Mississippi a truck is a need most of the time.

A V8 is what I want, have you ever driven a v6 F-150? It's weak and you don't save much on gas mileage. You can't use a station wagon if you want to carry your lawnmower around or do something else. A truck is a much better situation in the location I am in.

I understand that if you live in NYC or you live in the city and have no need for a truck, buta lot of people in a lot of places rely on the Ford F SERIES for the livelihood. The F series is a great product. The F150 gets the best gas mileage of any truck in it's class. Ford is actually doing what they can to make themselves a better company and I am a happy and will be a repeat customer.

Also Ford is one of the only companies in the US to have a discount program for American GI's and Public Servants.

As for the sprinters...They may make a good delivery truck but they suck as ambulances...so top heavy and a rough ride. Ford has had the ambulance design for 40+ years and makes a great ambulance from it's E series and F series while Chevy is making a nice comeback. The sprinter's were tried here and were returned due to a number of complaints from patients and Medics.

Phileas · May 16, 2009, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

I happen to like them. I'm 6'2" and about 230 pounds. It's easier to get into a bigger higher vehicle than a smaller one.

I'm 6'7". I drive a Mercedes B-Class, with no problems. You don't need a truck, just because you're moderately tall.

If you want one, by all means buy one, but I fail to understand why anybody would want to choose a truck over a car as a daily driver - except of course if your job demands one. Shitty gas mileage, terrible handling and with an empty bed, a crappy drive.

Back OT, I'd hate to see Volvo and Saab disappear, just because they were unlucky enough to be bought by the wrong people. I test drove a Volvo V70 Allroad recently and they are fine vehicles. Very popular up here for families who don't want to put up with the gas mileage of an SUV but still need a larger car that can cope well with Canadian winters.

ctt1wbw · May 17, 2009, 06:06 AM

I test drove a Volvo S-60 a few years ago. Nice car, but the interior driver side area was really small. The center dash area came over where the driver's legs were and cramped that area. Kinda uncomfortable. Saab, however, was such a joy to drive. Came close, but didn't get it.

And for the truck, it's a great drive. I think it handles good for a big truck. Granted, it's no Corvette, but it rides smooth and quiet, even with an empty load in the back.

OreoCookie · May 17, 2009, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by sek929

Ever drag tools out of a station wagon day after day? Ever driven on a muddy jobsite before? Ever had to carry something to tall for a regular vehicle?

Look, I've written about this before. I'm not suggesting that a station wagon can replace a truck, but rather that many people drive pickups because they like them rather than because they need them.

Trucks are workhorses and not `sport utility vehicles.' I don't hate them, I don't think they're unnecessary. I just think many people (not necessarily you) who complain don't need one. (I'm too tall/fat for a regular vehicle, etc.)

Certainly I bought furniture too large for a regular car. I either rented a van (Sprinter-sized) or I had it delivered. That was quite a lot cheaper than buying a truck when I need its capability only one or two times a year (at most).

Spheric Harlot · May 17, 2009, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Trucks are workhorses and not `sport utility vehicles.' I don't hate them, I don't think they're unnecessary. I just think many people (not necessarily you) who complain don't need one.

He's already admitted that he doesn't need one. No need for the pussyfooting:

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

I drive a Ram 1500 because I want to. Plus, it was my retirement gift to myself.