[emalen]

Hey all,

I'm trying to figure out how to create a menu like macworld.com's nav menu. I think it's a perfect way for users to quickly find information.

if anyone knows of any free scripts out there - or tutorials please let me know the web address!

thanks
emalen

[madmacgames]

a quick peek of the source code shows the menu they use is "ULTIMATE DROP DOWN MENU Version 4.2 by Brothercake" that can be found at:

http://www.udm4.com

it is free for personal, education, and charitable use

you can also Google something along the lines of "dhtml nav menu" to get a tons of other scripts & tutorials that do similar things as well.

[Synotic]

Originally posted by emalen:
I think it's a perfect way for users to quickly find information.

It's not. From a commercial or marketeer's perspective, it's a perfect solution. You're forcing the user to look through every section of your page, absorbing the navigation of your website. The keyword is forcing. While a goal might have a user browse through the entire site and possibly buy products, get information etc... generally users generally are looking for something specific. They don't want to waste their time scrolling through every single menu. Often, having multiple navigation hierarchies can cause web developers/management to add more and more pages and sections to fill up the menus� this only makes it worse for the end user. Personally, if I encounter a pop-up menu navigation, like that of MacWorld's, I will try and find my information another place. It's far too annoying to go through every single link and try and figure out which one I need.

If your site has so many sections that it necessitates such a complex navigational system, then I would suggest reevaluating the sections of your sites. For me, the best sites are the ones with 4 or 5 main buttons. Like for a hosting service, "Services, Pricing, FAQ, About US". Anyways, it's just my opinion, but I haven't found many end users that enjoy pop-up menus.

[madmacgames]

Originally posted by Synotic:
If your site has so many sections that it necessitates such a complex navigational system, then I would suggest reevaluating the sections of your sites. For me, the best sites are the ones with 4 or 5 main buttons. Like for a hosting service, "Services, Pricing, FAQ, About US". Anyways, it's just my opinion, but I haven't found many end users that enjoy pop-up menus.

That doesn't seem to really be a very valid analogy. Your are comparing the size of a hosting site to an online magazine? It doesn't make sense. Reducing the navigation to 4 or 5 sections on macworld would be like them or any other magazine reducing the table of contents to 4 or 5 entries. You wouldn't be able to find anything at all. While I agree small sites have no need for large number of menus, I don't see how a vast online magazine qualifies as one of those small sites.

And further I don't see how Macworlds navigation is that "complex". There are only 6 main sections with all but the forums having a few sub-sections. as an end user, it is by no means complicated or hard to follow.

[madmacgames]

Originally posted by Synotic:
Personally, if I encounter a pop-up menu navigation, like that of MacWorld's, I will try and find my information another place. It's far too annoying to go through every single link and try and figure out which one I need.

It really is not that difficult (macworld that is). If you don't know if the page you need is their magazine online, mac os x help, or a product review for example, then you either (a) don't know how to read or (b) don't really know what it is you are looking for.

There are site's with overly complicated DHTML navigation menus, but that is quite a stretch to say that Macworld's is too complicated to use.

[emalen]

Originally posted by Synotic:
It's not. From a commercial or marketeer's perspective, it's a perfect solution. You're forcing the user to look through every section of your page, absorbing the navigation of your website.

Not to be rude, but I think that [the above quote] is a horrible perspective- and one that will lose you customers. As an experienced web designer, is has always been my goal to provide users with the easiest way in which to find the information they are looking for.

The internet is a place where users can click links or close windows instantaenously. It is imperative to provide users with a site where they can find the information they are looking for asap.

just my thoughts,

emalen

[betoranaldi]

I was looking for somthing like this, my question is this though, with macworld.com the page itself is centerd, yet the dropdowns still align with the correct button.

is there anything simple to achieve this effect?

[Simon Mundy]

Originally posted by betoranaldi:
I was looking for somthing like this, my question is this though, with macworld.com the page itself is centerd, yet the dropdowns still align with the correct button.

is there anything simple to achieve this effect?

YEah, you create an outer DIV with position:relative and then you place all your position:absolute dropdowns within in - if the outer DIV moves, everything inside it follows accordingly.

I'm with Synotic on this one. I've worked on large corporate sites for over 7 years now for a wide variety of companies, and every one of them seems to find reasons to stuff all sorts of garbage into dropdowns (y'know, hide it out of the way so the rest of the page looks 'clean, innovative, forward-thinking, blah, blah).

What most corporate sites seem to forget is that end-users don't think in terms of organisational structure - they like to think in terms of their immediate need. So there's a lot of wringing of hands, cursing and time-wasting just trying to figure out whether the dropdown shortcut will actually point to the place I want to go, or whether it's yet another landing page for ANOTHER link... It's shallow, thoughtless user experience design and the less there is of it the better.

Don't forget the other side of it - poor Javascript implementations that flick the menu off if you miss a border by 1px, cross-browser issues, 50K Javascript downloads, ugly looking finishes and the possibility that after 1 day of friggin around getting it to work right that over 40% of your users don't even use Javascript and won't ever see it. Imaging if that 1 extra day was used reviewing content and providing more verbose and useful links and/or content?

There's nothing wrong with dropdowns per-se, it's just that the structure and purpose of them needs to be crystal clear in order for them to be effective at all.

Nothing beats a layout with 4-5 (or 6) clearly defined sections augmented with well-thought-out lists of links, breakout boxes and contextual linking from page-to-page. Apple's support page is a good example of this in action (as well as intelligent use of dropdowns in the right context).

I fail to see how Macworld is held up as a good implementation of navigation, too. Macworld's page design is too haphazard for a site of its complexity - it's difficult to get a sense of where you are within the site from a glance, and a lot of the content tends to run into ads and vice-versa. Apart from a poor interface it also suffers from inconsidered layout and overuse of advertising space. Ick.

[madmacgames]

Originally posted by Simon Mundy:
overuse of advertising space.

It is a freaking magazine. What do you expect? When is the last time you picked up a magazine? Chances are, in most magazines, at least 1/2 the content is ads. That is how they make enough money to continue operations, just like newspapers do: through ad sales, not subscription sales. Yeah there are alot of ads, but you have to expect that in print media.

Never mind that it is an online complement to their actual printed version. The web is a virtual world. You can't compare all websites with each other. You can't really compare an online magazine to an online corporate information website or to a technical support website.

God the web would suck if all types of organizations and websites followed the same basic structural layouts. Who wants to look at hundreds of websites all doing the same thing. While I agree that for example technical support websites would benefit themselves to function similar to other or well known technical support site, and eCommerce sites would benefit to function similar to other eCommerce sites, etc, I think this would be a pretty boring place if all websites tried to function and model their layouts all the same.

Also, I don't know about you, but when I 1st started using Mac about a year and 1/2 ago and had some basic questions on some things and issues, I had one hell of a time trying to find answers to anything on Apple's support site. The layout looks like it should be functional, but the last time I tried to find an answer it took over an hour. I found alot of answers to questions I did not have, but it took quite some time to track down an answer to the questions I did have.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Simon Mundy:
I fail to see how Macworld is held up as a good implementation of navigation, too. Macworld's page design is too haphazard for a site of its complexity - it's difficult to get a sense of where you are within the site from a glance, and a lot of the content tends to run into ads and vice-versa. Apart from a poor interface it also suffers from inconsidered layout and overuse of advertising space. Ick.

Not to mention the menu (which this thread is all about) is completely broken in Opera on Windoze. Granted, it's a Mac site, but that obviously doesn't mean they don't get Windows visitors, and there is simply no dropdown menu in Opera (7.53) on Windows, just simple links.

[Simon Mundy]

Originally posted by madmacgames:
It is a freaking magazine. What do you expect? When is the last time you picked up a magazine? Chances are, in most magazines, at least 1/2 the content is ads. That is how they make enough money to continue operations, just like newspapers do: through ad sales, not subscription sales. Yeah there are alot of ads, but you have to expect that in print media.

I'm a graphic designer. How long do you think it's been since I picked a magazine? I don't need the idiots guide of how magazines generate revenue, either. A website, a magazine or any other publication has complete editorial control over how many ads they place and how they choose to display them. If it's done right it can also work really well - it generates revenue AND it sits comfortably with the editorial content. Sales should not inform design and vice-versa.

Never mind that it is an online complement to their actual printed version. The web is a virtual world. You can't compare all websites with each other. You can't really compare an online magazine to an online corporate information website or to a technical support website.

The web is a virtual world! LOL. [wipes away tears] - thanks again for pointing out the bleeding obvious.

Of course I can compare websites. I can quite comfortable say that I find X is easy to use and Y isn't. I can say that X is well designed and Y looks like a dogs breakfast. The end-use has a huge influence on the way the website is expressed, but the basics of design and experience are still the same.

God the web would suck if all types of organizations and websites followed the same basic structural layouts. Who wants to look at hundreds of websites all doing the same thing. While I agree that for example technical support websites would benefit themselves to function similar to other or well known technical support site, and eCommerce sites would benefit to function similar to other eCommerce sites, etc, I think this would be a pretty boring place if all websites tried to function and model their layouts all the same.

Who said they should? The principles apply to the way you find information, not a prescriptive solution to layout or UI. I should never want the web to be a bland sea of monotony either. But in the same sense that all websites (should!) stick to certain standards for coding (XHTML, CSS, etc) there should at least be some set of design principles - and I suggest principles, not rules - to help create the optimum website experience for your end-user.

Also, I don't know about you, but when I 1st started using Mac about a year and 1/2 ago and had some basic questions on some things and issues, I had one hell of a time trying to find answers to anything on Apple's support site. The layout looks like it should be functional, but the last time I tried to find an answer it took over an hour. I found alot of answers to questions I did not have, but it took quite some time to track down an answer to the questions I did have.

Yeah, the Apple Support website has certainly had its ups and downs. But they performed some surveys and had people vote for the layout they liked best, and from that they refined it even more. The current support page is in my opinion pretty close to the mark for both functional and aesthetic reasons.

Anways, I'm not attacking anyone personally for liking macworld.com - if you really like reading and using it then more power to you.

I just find it ironic that whilst Apple is a brand that is expressed by award-winning aesthetics and breaks new grounds in technology is represented by a site like macworld.com that embodies NONE of those attributes. Look at it - it may as well be named winworld. I mean, it doesn't need to look like an Apple website, it just needs to have a little more sympathy to the brand.