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Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning? (Page 136)
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Originally Posted by hyteckit 
It's quite obvious in the first blu-ray picture, the blacks are way too dark and you can't even make out the details of the trees. Just black blobs.
Which AppleTV image is having the moiré pattern problem you are talking about? Moiré pattern can be create by your monitor or by the camera use to take the shot.
I beg to differ, the AppleTV image is washed out, maybe it has something to do with the way the source was compressed.
The moiré pattern in the first AppleTV image, it's pretty obvious and doesn't show on the Blu-ray, HD-TV, or DVD samples in that set.
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Originally Posted by jokell82
WTH is your problem? There were some questions (in this thread even) on whether or not HD rentals on the AppleTV would be feasible with current broadband speeds. The answer seems to be that it is. That's all that was brought up.
No one was talking about magic. No one was talking about streaming vs. downloading. No one was talking about commercial success. Well I take that back - no one else was. You were.
BUZZ! Wrong. The issue was 1080p STREAMING, not 720p DOWNLOADING.
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Originally Posted by starman
BUZZ! Wrong. The issue was 1080p STREAMING, not 720p DOWNLOADING.
So we were discussing 1080p streaming to our AppleTVs? The ones that only play 720p video?
Great, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up.
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Originally Posted by jokell82
So we were discussing 1080p streaming to our AppleTVs? The ones that only play 720p video?
Great, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
The issue was whether or not 1080p STREAMING from ANY kind of service, not AppleTV.
I don't think one person said that 720p DOWNLOADS would be a problem. It's a simple FILE. You're not watching it in real time. You COULD start watching it before it's done, but like when you watch a 1080p TRAILER from Apple.com, certain bandwidth issues can prevent you from watching it in real time as it's coming down.
EDIT: Actually, there is a 1080 podcast that I watch regularly: Tekzilla. I have to download it because watching it live is impossible. My bandwidth is fast, but it could be that their servers get hammered. The point is, it's not ready for prime time.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM. Download a 1080p trailer from Apple.com and see if it keeps up at different times of the day. THAT was the crux of the issue, not downloading in 720p.
Jesus Christ.....
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Last edited by starman; Feb 13, 2008 at 04:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Shaddim
I beg to differ, the AppleTV image is washed out, maybe it has something to do with the way the source was compressed.
The moiré pattern in the first AppleTV image, it's pretty obvious and doesn't show on the Blu-ray, HD-TV, or DVD samples in that set.
I beg to differ. The blacks are way too dark, with no details in the trees in the Blu-ray version. The best calibrated version seems to be the DVD version. The color temp, saturation, brightness, contrast looks the best for the DVD version.
Why do you keep insisting that moiré pattern is a problem with the AppleTV content? It could have come from multiple of reasons. It could even be from compressing the image to a jpg file. The reviewer didn't seem to have commented on it. If there was a moiré pattern problem with the AppleTV content, I'm sure the reviewer would notice on his Sony 40" Bravia HDTV.
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Originally Posted by hyteckit
I beg to differ. The blacks are way too dark, with no details in the trees in the Blu-ray version. The best calibrated version seems to be the DVD version. The color temp, saturation, brightness, contrast looks the best for the DVD version.
 Ok, whatever. The BD version looks more natural, especially compared to the AppleTV. However, I suppose this is just going to split down party lines, again, as usual, forever.
Why do you keep insisting that moiré pattern is a problem with the AppleTV content? It could have come from multiple of reasons. It could even be from compressing the image to a jpg file. The reviewer didn't seem to have commented on it. If there was a moiré pattern problem with the AppleTV content, I'm sure the reviewer would notice on his Sony 40" Bravia HDTV.
Because it's there, it's obvious, and it's not in the other examples? The guy isn't mentioning a lot of things wrong with the AppleTV images; moiré, low detail, and poor color.
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Originally Posted by starman
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
The issue was whether or not 1080p STREAMING from ANY kind of service, not AppleTV.
Actually it wasn't the issue. You invented that issue when we were talking about AppleTV rentals. Don't believe me, read below:
Originally Posted by goMac
People are having great success with the HD movie rentals on the US infrastructure today. Yes, it'll be great when we have more bandwidth for higher quality downloads, but as it stands internet speeds today are more than adequate.
The existence of XBox Live and AppleTV is enough to show that U.S. broadband is ready.
Originally Posted by starman
Wrong.
Xbox Live and Apple TV both do 720p downloads, not 1080p streaming. Big difference.
Originally Posted by starman
I don't even KNOW anyone doing HD rentals. How can there be "great success"?
Christ, goMac, where do you pull this crap out of?
Again, it had nothing to do with streaming or whether or not it was a commercial success - you pulled those issues out of thin air.
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No, I'm talking about topics on this thread from a few DAYS BACK. Not today. Sorry, please try again.
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Originally Posted by starman
No, I'm talking about topics on this thread from a few DAYS BACK. Not today. Sorry, please try again.
Well you quoted posts from today. You shouldn't do that if you mean to respond to others. It could cause people to misunderstand what you're talking about.
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Originally Posted by Shaddim
Ok, whatever. The BD version looks more natural, especially compared to the AppleTV. However, I suppose this is just going to split down party lines, again, as usual, forever.
Because it's there, it's obvious, and it's not in the other examples? The guy isn't mentioning a lot of things wrong with the AppleTV images; moiré, low detail, and poor color.
Have you ever calibrated your TV? Seems to me that his TV is calibrated for DVD player. The blu-ray version is too dark, the AppleTV is too green, and the HD cable just looks bad.
I don't see anything wrong with the AppleTV other then its green tint.
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You're also assuming the guy knows what he's doing with his camera. Most people don't.
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Originally Posted by hyteckit
Have you ever calibrated your TV? Seems to me that his TV is calibrated for DVD player. The blu-ray version is too dark, the AppleTV is too green, and the HD cable just looks bad.
I don't see anything wrong with the AppleTV other then its green tint.
Yes, I had my TVs and projector ISF calibrated. I'd really like to see larger examples, it's not just the color that's suspect on many of those AppleTV images.
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Originally Posted by jokell82
You're also assuming the guy knows what he's doing with his camera. Most people don't.
Shaddim is just being silly. He somehow thinks a photo taken with a camera somehow accurately reflect what it actually looks like in person. He doesn't realize moiré patterns can be created by the camera and during jpg compression.
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Originally Posted by jokell82
Well you quoted posts from today. You shouldn't do that if you mean to respond to others. It could cause people to misunderstand what you're talking about.
It's still a continuation of goMac's assertion that today's broadband is ready for internet HD rentals. Sure, it works if you want to wait for the download to finish (to be sure it's done). However, he was bitching about how HD downloads are going to knock Blu-Ray out completely which is what I was arguing against. Today's broadband market is NOT yet ready for a direct competitor to Blu-Ray's 1080p in streaming. For downloading, you can do anything, right? You can download anything so long as you wait long enough for it. Who can argue that? But if you want instant 1080p, it's not going to happen for a while. We're just getting 1080i now over Comcast digital cable (read: not the 'net).
And again, there's still a place for optical.
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Electronista | Toshiba releases new HD DVD firmware
Gee I hope those HD owners all have it hooked up to an ethernet port as those new features and bug fixes sound pretty damn important.
Shame on them for shipping such an "incomplete" player. At least the spec was finalized though 
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Originally Posted by starman
Sure, it works if you want to wait for the download to finish (to be sure it's done).
Huh? Wait for the download to finish to be sure it's done? Given a half hour buffer on a two hour movie, I've been able to play it through with plenty of buffer to spare. People with AppleTV are reporting far shorter buffer times.
It sounds like you're inventing problems for the sake of argument.
Originally Posted by starman
However, he was bitching about how HD downloads are going to knock Blu-Ray out completely which is what I was arguing against.
No, that wasn't what I was arguing. Do you have reading issues? I clearly said pros will probably stick with Bluray.
Originally Posted by starman
Today's broadband market is NOT yet ready for a direct competitor to Blu-Ray's 1080p in streaming. For downloading, you can do anything, right? You can download anything so long as you wait long enough for it. Who can argue that? But if you want instant 1080p, it's not going to happen for a while. We're just getting 1080i now over Comcast digital cable (read: not the 'net).
Interesting how you frame your argument entirely in 1080p-land.
Originally Posted by starman
And again, there's still a place for optical.
And I haven't debated against that. I just think the market at large will prefer digital downloads over Bluray because they are far less picky than... well.... you.
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Originally Posted by goMac
No, that wasn't what I was arguing. Do you have reading issues? I clearly said pros will probably stick with Bluray.
So even though BR is pick up faster than DVD you still think it will be for a Pro market?
You really think Apple TV will do better than BR in the end?
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Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
So even though BR is pick up faster than DVD you still think it will be for a Pro market?
Yep.
Technically there are 17 million VOD on demands boxes out there when you take the XBox 360 into account, but I don't really think those officially count. Same way that I don't think the PS3 really counts.
But considering your DVD vs. Bluray adoption numbers probably take the PS3 into account, it's quite possible that when including the XBox 360 that VOD may have an even higher potential user base than Bluray.
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
You really think Apple TV will do better than BR in the end?
Downloads in general, yes. I certainly hope AppleTV becomes the box of choice.
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Originally Posted by hyteckit
Shaddim is just being silly. He somehow thinks a photo taken with a camera somehow accurately reflect what it actually looks like in person. He doesn't realize moiré patterns can be created by the camera and during jpg compression.
Oh really? Since it shows on other images, and usually just the AppleTV, what a coincidence. Let's just wait and see how it looks with larger photos.
I fully believe, however, that blind-as-a-bat techies who want convenience over quality will eat that stuff up. For those who aren't so inclined, the technology still has a distance to go in quality compared to any type of HD disc. Wait until ISPs start screaming too, that'll be comical.
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Originally Posted by Shaddim
Wait until ISPs start screaming too, that'll be comical.
If Net Neutrality goes through, they won't have much of a choice.
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Originally Posted by goMac
If Net Neutrality goes through, they won't have much of a choice.
Sure they will, they'll find a way, even if they have drown D.C. in lobbyists and hookers.
(beyond the normal flood of lobbyists and hookers, that is.)
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Originally Posted by Shaddim
Sure they will, they'll find a way, even if they have drown D.C. in lobbyists and hookers.
Comcast tried limiting Bittorrent traffic, which isn't even usually used for legal downloads. Now they are part of an FCC query which may force them to unblock Bittorrent again.
And you think an ISP could actually get away with trying to do the same thing with a legal service like iTunes? Please.
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Originally Posted by goMac
Comcast tried limiting Bittorrent traffic, which isn't even usually used for legal downloads. Now they are part of an FCC query which may force them to unblock Bittorrent again.
And you think an ISP could actually get away with trying to do the same thing with a legal service like iTunes? Please.
It's their network. I agree it is pretty stupid but ISP are trying to move back to like they have done in the past... Charge a monthly GB limit, with additional charges when you go over it. I think they all will start doing some type of tiered access pricing or quota downloads, as they are all testing that model out again now.
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Originally Posted by exca1ibur
It's their network. I agree it is pretty stupid but ISP are trying to move back to like they have done in the past... Charge a monthly GB limit, with additional charges when you go over it. I think they all will start doing some type of tiered access pricing or quota downloads, as they are all testing that model out again now.
And with the feds getting involved, I don't think they'll be successful. Increased competition and federal regulations are going to keep them from going these routes.
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The government can not force any enterprise to deliver unlimited service for a flat fee. If ISPs want to introduce monthly download caps they will introduce monthly download caps. If people start downloading movies in masses then that's what they will do. Or they will increase prices. Either way, ISPs will forward increased bandwidth costs to their customers.
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Just watched my first TV download (Live Free or Die Hard) and I was very impressed, to say the least. I was able to start the movie within minutes of renting it. And the quality was quite impressive. I would bet the vast majority of people (read: not the geeks on this forum) wouldn't be able to tell the difference between these videos and a Blu-Ray or HD DVD disc.
Yeah that's right - it looked that good. Only complaint is that I think Apple should give you 72 hours per rental, not just 24. But I can deal with that.
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Last edited by jokell82; Feb 13, 2008 at 11:42 PM.
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
The government can not force any enterprise to deliver unlimited service for a flat fee.
No, they can't, but the idea that cable companies are suddenly going to push their users onto a worse service is stupid. Plus, with FIOS and Clearwire entering the market, would that really be such a smart idea?
Originally Posted by TETENAL
If ISPs want to introduce monthly download caps they will introduce monthly download caps. If people start downloading movies in masses then that's what they will do. Or they will increase prices. Either way, ISPs will forward increased bandwidth costs to their customers.
That's what's called a monopoly, and at that point the federal government will intervene. The government will certainly frown on a business using it's monopoly in one market to enforce a monopoly in another. Already the gears are starting to turn in DC on this...
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Once ISP starts monthly download caps, and that starts hindering technological advancement, the government will step in.
The government step in and demanded all TV broadcast be switch over to digital.
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Originally Posted by hyteckit
Once ISP starts monthly download caps, and that starts hindering technological advancement, the government will step in.
The government step in and demanded all TV broadcast be switch over to digital.
Not to mention some ISP's, such as ATT, already have agreements with the Federal Government as part of their merger/acquisition deals that they won't do stuff like this.
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
The government can not force any enterprise to deliver unlimited service for a flat fee. If ISPs want to introduce monthly download caps they will introduce monthly download caps. If people start downloading movies in masses then that's what they will do. Or they will increase prices. Either way, ISPs will forward increased bandwidth costs to their customers.
Exactly. Somewhere, somehow, the ISPs will get their pound of flesh. Why shouldn't they? If something comes along and doubles or triples bandwidth requirements for millions of people someone has to pay, and guess who that is?
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Originally Posted by Shaddim
Exactly. Somewhere, somehow, the ISPs will get their pound of flesh. Why shouldn't they? If something comes along and doubles or triples bandwidth requirements for millions of people someone has to pay, and guess who that is?
Cable companies are looking at upgrading their networks to do 200 Mbps peak per house within the next few years. Most likely they'll advertise at 100 Mbps.
And you're seriously going to argue 4.5 Mbps movie downloads are going to strain their network?
It's nothing but abusing power to try to force people onto cable company VOD services, and that's illegal.
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Originally Posted by jokell82
Just watched my first TV download (Live Free or Die Hard) and I was very impressed, to say the least. I was able to start the movie within minutes of renting it. And the quality was quite impressive. I would bet the vast majority of people (read: not the geeks on this forum) wouldn't be able to tell the difference between these videos and a Blu-Ray or HD DVD disc.
Yeah that's right - it looked that good. Only complaint is that I think Apple should give you 72 hours per rental, not just 24. But I can deal with that.
have to see it to believe it.
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AppleInsider | Apple TV Take 2: an in-depth review (part 1): what's new
HDTV and HD disc vendors are working hard to convince users that 1080p is the Only Real HD, and that 720p is far inferior, but for owners of sets smaller than about 50" the difference won't even be visible to anyone watching from ten feet away.
While videophiles like to obsess over the numbers that make "real HD," the reality is that most TV watchers are so used to poor quality standard definition programming and that any improvement in picture quality is a dramatic change. Analog broadcast TV has long used a nearly square aspect ratio that is stretched out by non-square pixels that results in everyone on TV looking ten pounds heavier. It also has poor color and poor effective resolution, delivering an interlaced picture with roughly 200 to 400 lines of resolution.
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"* Downloading an HD movie (via DSL 6MBit) takes a long time. Apple TV offered to start the movie, when 17% have been reached (may vary). To get there took ca. 45 minutes."
"Renting Simpson the Movie in HD. SO far, 25% downloaded in about 50 minutes on a Charter 5 Mbit connection. No message about being able to start the movie yet. I, too, was under the impression it would be quicker than this. Maybe time to upgrade to 10Mbit?"
http://forums.macnn.com/103/ipod-iph...t-impressions/
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goMac got serious owned. Welcome to reality pal. 8Mbps Cable? Must be nice.
I've got to laugh at all of the HD DVD supporters who are now hating on Michael Bay and all of his movies when those same people were probably hailing Transformers as the saviour of HD DVD when Paramount went HD DVD exclusive.
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Last edited by aristotles; Feb 14, 2008 at 01:52 PM.
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Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
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45 min to wait for a movie is a joke. I could go to the vid store 6 times in that span or just rent it off my sat provider.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status:
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That's horrid. Since most people have 1.5-3Mb connections, they'd need to wait 1-2 hours. I could run to Best Buy, buy it, and be half way through watching it before they'd start.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
"* Downloading an HD movie (via DSL 6MBit) takes a long time. Apple TV offered to start the movie, when 17% have been reached (may vary). To get there took ca. 45 minutes."
Gee. It takes a while to download HD movies on launch day? Who would have thunk it?
You know, for someone who doesn't care about VOD downloads, you seem to pay a lot of attention to them.
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8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status:
Offline
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Let's do some math here and put the trolls to bed.
For a 4 megabit connection (slower than your average cable connection):
AppleTV movies are 4.5 megabit/s, so your average 2 hour movie is:
(4.5/8)*60*60*2=4.05 GB
The time it takes to download a file on a 4 Mb/s connection is:
(4050/(4/8))/60=135 minutes
After about 15% the file is primed to play.. 15% of 135 minutes is...
20.25 minutes.
So under normal conditions, on a slower than cable connection, your average 2 hour movie takes 20 minutes to start.
If you want to argue with that, good luck...
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8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
"* Downloading an HD movie (via DSL 6MBit) takes a long time. Apple TV offered to start the movie, when 17% have been reached (may vary). To get there took ca. 45 minutes."
"Renting Simpson the Movie in HD. SO far, 25% downloaded in about 50 minutes on a Charter 5 Mbit connection. No message about being able to start the movie yet. I, too, was under the impression it would be quicker than this. Maybe time to upgrade to 10Mbit?"
http://forums.macnn.com/103/ipod-iph...t-impressions/
The dude says he is from Europe. Do you believe him?
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Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Union County, NJ
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by goMac
Let's do some math here and put the trolls to bed.
For a 4 megabit connection (slower than your average cable connection):
AppleTV movies are 4.5 megabit/s, so your average 2 hour movie is:
(4.5/8)*60*60*2=4.05 GB
The time it takes to download a file on a 4 Mb/s connection is:
(4050/(4/8))/60=135 minutes
After about 15% the file is primed to play.. 15% of 135 minutes is...
20.25 minutes.
So under normal conditions, on a slower than cable connection, your average 2 hour movie takes 20 minutes to start.
If you want to argue with that, good luck...
Assuming that you actually HAVE that mystical bandwidth. There are good days and bad, but in your little universe, nothing bad ever happens.
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In the hearts and minds of MacNNers
Status:
Offline
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And that cable speed is twice what the average person has. So itlooks like the average person is in for a 40 minute wait.
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Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth
And that cable speed is twice what the average person has. So itlooks like the average person is in for a 40 minute wait.
But is that cable speed twice what the average broadband user has? Or just the average internet user?
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All glory to the hypnotoad.
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In the hearts and minds of MacNNers
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by jokell82
But is that cable speed twice what the average broadband user has? Or just the average internet user?
Broadband, apparently.
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Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
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Well I guess that depends on who you believe. From your link:
Originally Posted by http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070529-survey-average-broadband-speed-in-us-is-1-9mbps.html
The data, says the CWA, is in in stark contrast to broadband speeds available in other countries. The organization compared its own survey data to numbers provided by the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation's "Assessing Broadband in America" (PDF) report, which showed that countries such as Japan and even our closest neighbor of Canada have significantly higher broadband download speeds—61Mbps and 7.6Mbps, respectively.
Data source: Information Technology and Innovation Foundation
However, the CWA's data conflicts with that of the ITIF report. ITIF claims that the average broadband speed in the US is 4.8Mbps—still lower than Canada, many western European countries, Japan, and Korea—but more than twice as fast as CWA's numbers. In fact, Cohen himself doesn't exactly claim that the CWA's data is valid. "While we don't claim that the results are scientific, we do believe this is the first national survey of Internet upload and download speeds," Cohen said in his testimony to the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet. "I should point out that most people who took our speed test either use DSL or a cable modem."
I would think it probably lies somewhere in the middle, but who knows for sure.
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All glory to the hypnotoad.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth
And that cable speed is twice what the average person has. So itlooks like the average person is in for a 40 minute wait.
According to the current numbers, a slim majority of people actually have cable instead of DSL.
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8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In the hearts and minds of MacNNers
Status:
Offline
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Checkout the link I already posted.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by starman
Assuming that you actually HAVE that mystical bandwidth. There are good days and bad, but in your little universe, nothing bad ever happens.
My standard, no extras cable connection is 8 megabit with 16 megabit peak. I could go back and calculate what I get on a bad day... say... 10 megabits/s, but it probably wouldn't be pretty.
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8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
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Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by goMac
Let's do some math here and put the trolls to bed.
For a 4 megabit connection (slower than your average cable connection):
AppleTV movies are 4.5 megabit/s, so your average 2 hour movie is:
(4.5/8)*60*60*2=4.05 GB
The time it takes to download a file on a 4 Mb/s connection is:
(4050/(4/8))/60=135 minutes
After about 15% the file is primed to play.. 15% of 135 minutes is...
20.25 minutes.
So under normal conditions, on a slower than cable connection, your average 2 hour movie takes 20 minutes to start.
If you want to argue with that, good luck...
Ya I knew you would post that. Shows how much Mr 21 year old knows about the internet if you think it is just a simple matter of math like that.
Funny thing is even though my internet connected is 5 megs whenever I download things from certain websites they are much much slower. Something must be wrong with my connection sometimes.
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