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Upgrading a G3
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Hippy_Skinplant
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Oct 3, 2004, 02:49 PM
 
I just picked an old Blue & White G3 from eBay and I'm looking to do a bit of upgrading to it and get it running Panther (If possible)
It's 400mhz model, 128M RAM and SCSI HD.

I'm gonna stick 1Ghz RAM in it, and I want to bin the SCSI HD and card in favour of a regular IDE hard drive. It has an Ultra ATA socket on the mobo, and I was told that's the same as normal IDE.
I did a search on here for G3 related posts and noticed a few folk mentioned they're using controller cards to run IDE HD's. Is this just certain models of it, or will I need to pick one up too?

I also read about the CPU upgrade to take the speed up to 1Ghz. Does anyone know if it's still available, and where I can find a dealer in the UK?
     
yikes600
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Oct 3, 2004, 08:35 PM
 
One important thing you should know is the Sonnet 1GHz, 800MHz, 700MHz G4 upgrades slow your system bus down from 100MHz to 66MHz. If you're going to install one of these upgrades then you may as well have gotten a beige G3.

That's why I'd recommend a PowerLogix 1.1GHz G3 upgrade, or an OWC/XLR8 600MHz G4. Both of these keep your system bus at 100MHz.

There are a few good reasons to install an PCI ATA controller:
1. The onboard ATA controller is limited to ATA/33 speeds.
2. Revision 1 B&W G3's have a data corruptions problems when using hard drives larger than 30(?) GB on the onboard ATA controller.
3. If you want one of those spiffy new 160, 200GB, 250GB+ hard drives, the onboard ATA controller only recognizes the first 130GB.

These are very upgradable machines. I have a G4/PCI (same as your B&W G3) which I've done the following:
G4/600MHz overclocked to 650MHz
Radeon 9200 128MB PCI
1GB RAM
80GB and 160GB hard drives on an ATA/133 controller
Pioneer DVR-107 8x Superdrive
Airport Extreme via PCI card
USB 2.0 via PCI card

Just to give you some ideas.
     
Hippy_Skinplant  (op)
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Oct 4, 2004, 07:16 AM
 
Yeah, I saw that on another thread that the Sonnet upgrade is quite slow. I was on the Powerlogix site yesterday checking out theirs, I'll pick one of those up at some point soon.

That info about the ATA/IDE is helpful. I'll go the PCI card route for sure.

Thanks for the info, gave me some good ideas now on what way to head with this.
     
Hippy_Skinplant  (op)
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Oct 6, 2004, 09:12 AM
 
Will the Mac be ok with a standard IDE card, or does it require a Mac-specific one?
     
Lateralus
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Oct 6, 2004, 05:46 PM
 
Mac specific.
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yikes600
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Oct 6, 2004, 07:46 PM
 
Great deal on the Acard AEC-6280M (2 channel ATA/133) here:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...123-110&depa=0
     
DrBoar
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Oct 7, 2004, 03:56 AM
 
OS X runs well on a B&W, however 128 MB will hobble it a lot already at 192 it is much better and more than that is better still.

Take a look at www.xlr8yourmac.com were they describe how to use jumpers from old hardisks to overclock B&W G3s. I OC a G3/300 to 350.

I would go for the 1 GHz Powerlogix G3 for 250 dollars rather than a 700 MHz G4 at the same price. For non Altivec that will be faster and no drivers will be needed ( I think) and even in AV the 50% higher clockspeed will enable it to keep up well.

CPU and RAM upgrade is OK, but if you nned to toss in a superdrive and IDE PCI card and hardisks and graphcial card the whole combo will cost you as much as a new eMac if not more
     
yukon
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Oct 10, 2004, 10:33 PM
 
Go with SATA, it'll increase the value of the machine, do a bit more futureproofing, and the controllers are pretty cheap...especially if you're buying a new drive, there's a very little price difference PATA vs. SATA. Possibly wait a bit on the controller though, ones supporting SATA-II features like NCQ that improve performance are in development.

1gb of RAM is possibly unnecessary, I do quite well with 768, 512 and over should be fine....I mention this only because RAM prices have gone up a bit more than many people realize.
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Aftaab
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Oct 13, 2004, 05:28 PM
 
Hey folks, I just want to drop a word of warning about doing business with Powerlogix. I have been trying to upgrade my 400MHz pismo since May 2004 with them. It has turned into a collosally frustrating experience. I got the upgrade 3 months later which is appaling and to make matters worse -- it never worked. The customer service is horrible. One fellow actually laughed when I asked him when I could expect the upgrade!?! This is just my opinion - it is based on personal experience but I wouldn't bother doing business with them ever again. I'm in the process of getting my money back...
     
MacNZ
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Nov 3, 2004, 12:01 AM
 
Hi,

I also got a B&W the other week to upgrade. It seems to me that SATA is a good option since I've got a Rev. A (350mhz, non-DVD) and SATA cards are in fact cheaper at OWC than normal ATA/133 cards.

In terms of proc. uprades-- I'm looking at the OWC/550-600mhz ZIFF upgrade. Being only mildly competent at upgrading stuff (have done memory, hard drive, drive upgrades etc in old iMacs, PB G3 and B&W) is it hard to switch the jumper settings on these upgrades? Are they set initially to 550mhz or what's the deal with them?

I'm also looking at sticking in a Radeon 9200 but only if funds allow. If I don't have enough cash, is the Rev. A's Rage 128 DVD capable? If I stuck a Superdrive in the machine would it be able to play DVD movies.

Finally, with the 350mhz proc. I pull from the B&W would I be able to put it in my Beige G3 without too much mod? It's still a ZIFF but I suppose the different bus speeds would change it's operation. Would I need to reset jumpers or would it automatically work at say 333mhz? If I pulled the Rage 128 would it work in the Beige G3, because it is in a 66mhz slot, which the Beige doesn't have.

Thanks.
Pete C. (PB12" 1.5Ghz 160GB hdd, 1.25GB RAM, OS X 10.4.11)
     
yikes600
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Nov 3, 2004, 12:23 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNZ:
Hi,
I also got a B&W the other week to upgrade. It seems to me that SATA is a good option since I've got a Rev. A (350mhz, non-DVD) and SATA cards are in fact cheaper at OWC than normal ATA/133 cards.
At OWC it's more expensive, but not at NewEgg . That Acard SATA card you're considering actually uses a PATA to SATA bridge, so you don't get the full performance of a true SATA bus. Right now there's no reason to go SATA unless you want to spend lots of $$$ for a high capacity drive. Meanwhile, ATA/133 drives are far cheaper and every bit as fast.

In terms of proc. uprades-- I'm looking at the OWC/550-600mhz ZIFF upgrade. Being only mildly competent at upgrading stuff (have done memory, hard drive, drive upgrades etc in old iMacs, PB G3 and B&W) is it hard to switch the jumper settings on these upgrades? Are they set initially to 550mhz or what's the deal with them?
The jumpers are set at whatever your old processor speed is, since the jumpers aren't even on the card itself but on your motherboard. It's beyond easy... it'll take you 15 seconds max. These OWC upgrades are very easy to overclock. I've been running that same OWC 500MHz G4 @ 650MHz
for several months now.

I'm also looking at sticking in a Radeon 9200 but only if funds allow. If I don't have enough cash, is the Rev. A's Rage 128 DVD capable? If I stuck a Superdrive in the machine would it be able to play DVD movies.
There's no reason to seek a Rage 128 w/ DVD if you're planning to run OS X. OS 9's DVD player is the only software to ever use the hardware DVD decoder (which was an option on some of the Rage 128's). A normal Rage 128 (without DVD decoder) will play movies exactly the same as the DVD decoder model under OS X. The Radeon 9200 is a great choice if you can afford it. A third option is the Radeon 7000 which can be found very cheap (~$50) on Ebay, and has performance in between the Rage 128 and 9200.

Finally, with the 350mhz proc. I pull from the B&W would I be able to put it in my Beige G3 without too much mod? It's still a ZIFF but I suppose the different bus speeds would change it's operation. Would I need to reset jumpers or would it automatically work at say 333mhz? If I pulled the Rage 128 would it work in the Beige G3, because it is in a 66mhz slot, which the Beige doesn't have.
It will work fine without any mods. The bus speed won't change because once again, the bus speed and multiplier jumpers (to determine CPU speed) are on your motherboard, not the ZIF. The Rage 128 works fine in a 33Mhz slot.
( Last edited by yikes600; Nov 3, 2004 at 12:34 AM. )
     
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Nov 3, 2004, 04:27 AM
 
     
MacNZ
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Nov 3, 2004, 04:50 AM
 
Thanks heaps yikes600 -- looks like I'm doing some upgrading! Decided the Radeon is worth it if the Rage 128 works in the beige.
Pete C. (PB12" 1.5Ghz 160GB hdd, 1.25GB RAM, OS X 10.4.11)
     
MacNZ
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Nov 5, 2004, 07:01 PM
 
Just one more question:

From the comments and articles I've read on the hard drive issue it seems the corruption occurs if you are running a slave drive. Yikes600, you said the issue occured with drives over 30GB. Is that only with a slave drive or even one as master, say if I installed an 80GB drive I have already on the original ATA bus as master?
Pete C. (PB12" 1.5Ghz 160GB hdd, 1.25GB RAM, OS X 10.4.11)
     
yikes600
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Nov 7, 2004, 09:02 AM
 
I don't have a rev. 1 B&W G3, so I'm no expert, but from what I gather at xlr8yourmac.com the data corruption issue isn't master/slave specific.

Data corruption can occur with any drive (master or slave) with the rev 1's IDE chip. If you have a rev 1 B&W G3, the safest thing is to buy a PCI IDE controller card when considering adding/replacing the original drive with a modern, larger model.
- http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G3-ZONE/yosemite/IDE/

On another page, Mike says it happens to "modern drives" -- keep in mind this was written back in 1998 so any drive available now would be considered modern.
     
bowwowman
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Nov 7, 2004, 10:20 AM
 
Originally posted by yikes600:
I don't have a rev. 1 B&W G3, so I'm no expert, but from what I gather at xlr8yourmac.com the data corruption issue isn't master/slave specific.
the corruption issue is caused by screwy IDE controller chip, which could produce corruption on ANY drive connected to it, but is almost instantaneous when a second drive is added. This was one of the major reasons there was a "rev 2" model
Personally I find it hilarious that you have the hots for my gramma. Especially seeins how she is 3x your age, and makes your Brittney-Spears-wannabe 30-something wife look like a rag doll who went thru WWIII with a burning stick of dynamite up her a** :)
     
MacNZ
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Nov 8, 2004, 06:25 AM
 
Thanks for the clarification - just as well i have a spare PCI slot!
Pete C. (PB12" 1.5Ghz 160GB hdd, 1.25GB RAM, OS X 10.4.11)
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 8, 2004, 01:15 PM
 
I got a B&W a few months back which I've been trying to upgrade as funds allow.

I built mine from scratch (got the parts off eBay).
My motherboard is rev1 but has no on-board firewire. I bought the FW module before realising that someone had very generously ripped the connector for it off the motherboard. No big deal though.

I stuck a 20GB IDE drive in it, and installed 9.2.2 and 10.2.8. It ran both of these, absolutely fine. (There was some trouble installing X, but only because I had some of the wrong RAM in it.)
Recently it has started to play up. X became effectively useless by virtue of the way it would relaunch the finder everytime you tried to launch an app. The only apps it would run without doing this were Sys prefs and Terminal. And even Sys prefs would crash if you asked it to do anything much. (Like start file sharing).

Since I didn't want to lose some of the data on the 20GB drive (only had one partition), I installed a SCSI 9.1GB drive with an Adaptec 2940UW card and tried to install X on this. It ran through the installer but would not install a useable copy. (See my thread in the netwoking forums) I tried junking all the jaguar files manually (the ones I could see) and installing on the 20GB IDE, same problem. I tried 10.1.4, that didn't work either.

I tried connecting it to my Powerbook via ethernet to shift files between drives and do some more re-installs (Powerbook also had problems and was reduced to running OS 8.6 on its stock 4.6GB drive) Neither machine would see the other (hence the networking post).

I asked my Uncle to lend me a Mac-bootable DVD ROM drive, he brought me a Lacie external firewire burner. I have no firewire and cannot boot from USB. I tried to backup the required files to CDR, but the drive had no burn support on either Mac. I whipped it out of the enclosure and installed it on the IDE bus in place of the CDROM (should have been OK since it was a Pioneer DVR104 which is stock on some Macs), it had Lacie firmware and the Mac wouldn't boot at all with it connected to IDE.
Toast 4.1 didn't support the drive either.

So now I'm stuck. has anyone else had this kind of trouble installing X on a B&W? I'm fast running out of ideas......
     
Lateralus
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Nov 9, 2004, 01:13 AM
 
I've got a 1GHz G3 750GX ZIF and a Radeon 9200 for sale. Both from my B&W. The G3 runs solidly at 1.1GHz. Send me a PM if any of y'all are interested.
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macaddict0001
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Nov 11, 2004, 05:36 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNZ:
Just one more question:

From the comments and articles I've read on the hard drive issue it seems the corruption occurs if you are running a slave drive. Yikes600, you said the issue occured with drives over 30GB. Is that only with a slave drive or even one as master, say if I installed an 80GB drive I have already on the original ATA bus as master?
its actually 128 gigabytes
[Originally posted by MacNZ:
If I stuck a Superdrive in the machine would it be able to play DVD movies.
you only need a dvd-rom. but yes it would be able to play movies
     
Phossil
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Nov 11, 2004, 05:59 PM
 
Haha - you can absolutly get it running Panther, I've got a 366 mhz G3 iBook with 578MB Ram running Panther on a 30GB HD. It runs it suprisingly well, but I wouldn't mind something a bit faster
     
GuyWithACamera
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Nov 11, 2004, 08:09 PM
 
Hippy_Skinplant,
You could've saved yourself some time and money by winning my ebay auction.

It ran/runs Panther just fine and was nice and stable with the OWC processor upgrade. Xlr8yourmac.com got me through the upgrading.
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yikes600
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Nov 11, 2004, 10:51 PM
 
Originally posted by macaddict0001:
its actually 128 gigabytes
That's not even what we're talking about. You're getting confused with the 128GB limitation if 28 bit addressing which ATA/33 to ATA/100 controllers use. An ATA/133 controller uses 48 bit addressing and is capable of recognizing drive capacities of up to ~128 petabytes.

What we're talking about is the faulty ATA/33 controller built into the motherboard of Revision 1 B&W G3's. The controller will recognize aftermarket drives up to 128GB just fine, but due to a defective design of the controller you'll experience random data corruption issues with any modern hard drive. Not just on drives over 128GB, but with nearly -any- drive of -any- capacity. I was wrong when I stated that only drives larger than 30GB drives are subject to the corruption. It turns out that it's the drive's speed that the controller can't handle. The flawed controller isn't able to handle the speed of full ultra DMA according to XLR8YourMac.com The only solution is to have "Ultra DMA disabled completely in favor of Multiword DMA" which slows down the drive significantly, or to work around it with an aftermarket PCI ATA-controller. The drives Apple shipped with the Rev. 1 G3's were too slow to trigger the flaw on the onboard controller, so it wasn't until people started adding or replacing aftermarket HD's that this problem was discovered.

Lots more info here:
http://forums.xlr8yourmac.com/action...st=yes&-search
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 25, 2004, 09:31 AM
 
My 20GB drive is the only one on the ATA bus, but still has enormous trouble with data corruption. I put my System on it and keep data etc on either a 40GB on the IDE bus or a 9GB SCSI drive on my Adaptec 2940UW.

I have to wipe the 20GB every two weeks or so and reinstall. It used to run Jaguar fine but now refuses to even install it properly.

I wish I could boot from the SCSI drive though, should I be able to with the 2940? It may be the fact that its a Compaq branded drive.
     
eHoward
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Nov 26, 2004, 05:52 PM
 
Ive purchased two powerlogix upgrades.. . . both daugtercards for X600/X500 series machines. No problems with either card until my little brother cranked up the 240mhz G3 to over 300mhz and cooked the 7600 motherboard.

the 375mhz G3 has been running strong since Y2k in the S900 it is in.

Customer service might not be great, but the products have performed for me.

Originally posted by Aftaab:
Hey folks, I just want to drop a word of warning about doing business with Powerlogix. I have been trying to upgrade my 400MHz pismo since May 2004 with them. It has turned into a collosally frustrating experience. I got the upgrade 3 months later which is appaling and to make matters worse -- it never worked. The customer service is horrible. One fellow actually laughed when I asked him when I could expect the upgrade!?! This is just my opinion - it is based on personal experience but I wouldn't bother doing business with them ever again. I'm in the process of getting my money back...
     
ZSS
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Nov 28, 2004, 11:36 PM
 
Originally posted by yukon:
Go with SATA, it'll increase the value of the machine, do a bit more futureproofing, and the controllers are pretty cheap...especially if you're buying a new drive, there's a very little price difference PATA vs. SATA. Possibly wait a bit on the controller though, ones supporting SATA-II features like NCQ that improve performance are in development.
I have a B/W G3 that I inherited. I'm guessing that its rev.1 because it had a 300mhz with a CD ROM. So far I have put 896 mb RAM, an 80 Gig Western Dig HD, an OWC G4 500 Mhz ZIF clocked at 550 Mhz, and a Pannasonic DVD burner. I'm running 10.3.

Generally it performs well. Here are my issues/questions. Please make any response you care to give simple. My computer vocab is limited. For example I don't really undertand SATA or EIDE conversation, but I think it might berelative to at least one of the following issues. Thanks for taking the time to read and (hopefully) respond.

1. Primary motivation for the upgrade was to use iDVD (hence the G4 ZIF). I can burn using Toast, but not iDVD. OWC says to re-install the OS. Any other suggestions?
2. Since I can't use iDVD, I got a copy of Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio Pro. Final Cut requires an AGP Graphics card. Should I bother with that or simply return Final Cut and stick with what I've got?
3. Speaking of graphics, is there any real reason to upgrade to the Radon 9200 or 7000? Are they AGP?
4. When I added the HD I had trouble accessing the full 80 G and I couldn't boot from it, so I swapped it with the original and added the original 6 G drive to the slave position on the slot next to the DVD burner (scuzi chain, I guess). I know boot in OS X from the 80G drive (which shows up as 75G). If I try to boot from the old drive it only boots in OS9, and it does not acknowledge the new drive (although it will let me choose the new drive as a start up disk for restart). These are not major issues, but I wonder what benefit an SATA card would offer? The new drive is an EIDE, and it says it has an IDE-ATA interface and that it is Ultra ATA compatable. I do not know what any of that last sentance means. If there's a website that explains it, please refer.
5. Lastly, I have a scuzi card installed, but it does not show up on the System Profiler, and neither do the devices I've attached to it. Think its a bad card, or have you heard of compatibility issues between B/Ws running OS X and scuzi cards?
"We are told that talent creates its own opportunities. Yet, it seems that intense desires create not only its own opportunities, but its own talent as well". Bruce Lee
     
macaddict0001
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Nov 29, 2004, 12:37 AM
 
1. you might as well try what owc says
2.get a new computer(if you were willing to spend the money of final cut pro you might as well get a faster computer)
3.you will never get agp into any g3(yeah i know you upgraded it to a g4 but its not the processor that determines it)
4. its not scsi(the correct way to spell scuzi)its ata. And since its not scsi its not a chain. It is just two drives connected with one cable(which ata is allowed to do)
You are in fact acessing the entire 80 gig's, mac osx just thinks its 75 because formating the drive reserves space for the filesystem(in this case probably hfs+)
5. is the scsi card mac compatable? have you used it sucessfully before?
     
ZSS
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Nov 29, 2004, 11:13 PM
 
Originally posted by macaddict0001:
1. you might as well try what owc says
Yeah...just don't want to have to back up all my stuff into CDs and such. I'll suck it up and try it.

2.get a new computer(if you were willing to spend the money of final cut pro you might as well get a faster computer)
Yeah...perhaps FCP was a *gift*, shall we say. I probably shouldn't be going that route anyway. Especially since I can't use AGP. Thanks also for the clarification on terms and such with the HD. From that I assume that I shouldn't worry about a new SATA card either. Any clue why I can only boot in OS 9 on the slave and when I do so it does not recognize the master in the finder?

5. is the scsi card mac compatable? have you used it sucessfully before?
No idea, my sister in law gave me the machine with the scsi card in it. She said it worked for her, but it has not for me. Is there a diagnostic test I can do?
"We are told that talent creates its own opportunities. Yet, it seems that intense desires create not only its own opportunities, but its own talent as well". Bruce Lee
     
macaddict0001
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Nov 30, 2004, 02:16 AM
 
you could try the scsi card in a different computer, or even just a different pci slot.

You should be able to boot from any drive with a working system folder, no idea why you can't boot from that one. What exactly goes wrong, does it not appear when you choose the option to select a boot disk? Or when you try to start up from it does it have a folder with a flashing question mark on it? Does the computer just crash?
     
ZSS
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Dec 1, 2004, 11:55 PM
 
Thanks for the advice about the scsi card. As to the HD, now it only boots from OSX on the master. I may have some data corruption of some kind. No reason I can't do a clean install on the slave drive. I'll try that. I'm thinking that I can just put OS 9 on the slave and make the master OS X only. We'll see. Wont have time to fool with it till the weekend.
"We are told that talent creates its own opportunities. Yet, it seems that intense desires create not only its own opportunities, but its own talent as well". Bruce Lee
     
Waragainstsleep
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Dec 3, 2004, 06:42 AM
 
Does your machine boot from Slave drives? Don't think mine does.
     
   
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