Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Salty · Jun 26, 2006, 07:27 AM

I dono I know, I met someone from an ex-gay ministry and he had like a HUGE HUGE LISP and you could tell he was trying not to. So I dono I don't think all of them put it on. Though I did meet one guy at a bar, well like he knew my friend, and he was like HUGELY flaming and I was just thinking... either you gotta act different in public... or you got beat up a lot in school. I have 0 traces of a lisp. Actually apparently I have "such a deep manly voice" yah... creepy to hear that.

Zeeb · Jun 26, 2006, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

While we're on the subject, what's with the lisp? You know, the gay lisp. Is that put on or does it come with the genes?

I've never been able to figure that one out myself. I'm not conscious of "acting" one way or the other. Some of my friends who are gay are very effeminate while others are indistingishable from the way straight guys act. It's strange that within the gay community generally the "masculine" gay guys tend not to like the effeminate ones too much though I won't say that's universally true. If you read the personals that gay men write to meet each other, you see the words "masculine" and "straight-acting" pop up over and over. Once again, when you're gay you're generally forced to just accept inexplicable things like this. You can rationalize it into the ground and it just goes nowhere.

besson3c · Jun 26, 2006, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

While we're on the subject, what's with the lisp? You know, the gay lisp. Is that put on or does it come with the genes?

Good question! I've always wondered that myself.

besson3c · Jun 26, 2006, 08:28 AM

Heheh.. because of this server's clock being set incorrectly, the responses are occurring before the original posts. Trippy.

besson3c · Jun 26, 2006, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Salty

I dono I know, I met someone from an ex-gay ministry and he had like a HUGE HUGE LISP and you could tell he was trying not to. So I dono I don't think all of them put it on. Though I did meet one guy at a bar, well like he knew my friend, and he was like HUGELY flaming and I was just thinking... either you gotta act different in public... or you got beat up a lot in school. I have 0 traces of a lisp. Actually apparently I have "such a deep manly voice" yah... creepy to hear that.

Your posts are so vallery girl...

King Bob On The Cob · Jun 26, 2006, 08:43 AM

Ah, but here's the catch, if it is biological, and they come up with some way to make the gay go away, what would you do? (I know I feel like I'm trolling, but it's honestly a legitimate question.) If you had a choice to fit in to the social norms, would you?

hyteckit · Jun 26, 2006, 01:46 PM

Oh no! I have 3 older brothers!

aberdeenwriter · Jun 26, 2006, 02:33 PM

http://www.forbes.com/business/manuf...ap2840962.html

Men With Older Brothers More Likely to Be Gay

Men who have several older brothers have an increased chance of being gay, researchers say, a finding that adds weight to the idea that sexual orientation has a physical basis.

The increase was seen in men with older brothers from the same mother - whether they were raised together or not - but not those who had adopted or stepbrothers who were older.

"It's likely to be a prenatal effect," said Anthony F. Bogaert of Brock University in St. Catharines, Canada, who did the research. "This and other studies suggest that there is probably a biological basis" for homosexuality.

Bogaert studied four groups of Canadian men, a total of 944 people, analyzing the number of brothers and sisters each had, whether or not they lived with those siblings and whether the siblings were related by blood or adopted.

His findings are reported in a paper appearing in Tuesday's issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

I have no dispute with this nor anything to add to it.

Landos Mustache · Jun 26, 2006, 02:41 PM

I am the older brother. God I hope my sister isn't a lesbo.

::maroma:: · Jun 26, 2006, 02:44 PM

Meh, these sorts of studies don't really say much. One can pretty much do a study on just about anything and come to some sort of conclusion. That doesn't make that conclusion correct. I mean they could've looked at the same group of people, and instead of looking at how many siblings they had, they could have looked at how many moles they had on their bodies. Or what color thier hair is. Or whether or not they come from a broken home. But they chose to look at siblings and drew a conclusion about sexuality from it.

Again I say, "Meh"

davesimondotcom · Jun 26, 2006, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

I am the older brother. God I hope my sister isn't a lesbo.

Why not? Something wrong with it?

I'd say something about her converting to Christianity or something, but that would lead this thread off course right off... so ignore it.

aberdeenwriter · Jun 26, 2006, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

Meh, these sorts of studies don't really say much. One can pretty much do a study on just about anything and come to some sort of conclusion. That doesn't make that conclusion correct. I mean they could've looked at the same group of people, and instead of looking at how many siblings they had, they could have looked at how many moles they had on their bodies. Or what color thier hair is. Or whether or not they come from a broken home. But they chose to look at siblings and drew a conclusion about sexuality from it.

Again I say, "Meh"

You MAY be right. Although whenever I hear of a study which quantifies or draws conclusions and helps provide clarity where there was previously only confusion, I always smile when people immediately discount the conclusions.

Sometimes there are things that should remain fuzzy...that's fuzzy in a good way.

aberdeenwriter · Jun 26, 2006, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Why not? Something wrong with it?

I'd say something about her converting to Christianity or something, but that would lead this thread off course right off... so ignore it.

That's funny!

Landos Mustache · Jun 26, 2006, 02:52 PM

Who here sees this thread taking the path of a bunch of bible quotes, arguing of homosexuality is a sin or not and that the percentage of gays is not 10% but between 1.2 - 2.3% then getting moved to the political lounge or locked.

aberdeenwriter · Jun 26, 2006, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Who here sees this thread taking the path of a bunch of bible quotes, arguing of homosexuality is a sin or not and that the percentage of gays is not 10% but between 1.2 - 2.3% then getting moved to the political lounge or locked.

I suppose it might happen.

Dakar · Jun 26, 2006, 03:18 PM

Didn't this get posted a while ago?

Railroader · Jun 26, 2006, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Who here sees this thread taking the path of a bunch of bible quotes, arguing of homosexuality is a sin or not and that the percentage of gays is not 10% but between 1.2 - 2.3% then getting moved to the political lounge or locked.

I certainly know the one who would start such an immature discussion. And it seems atheists are the first to post scripture. And always out of context.

Kerrigan · Jun 26, 2006, 03:35 PM

I don't know what's more tedious, those Bible vs. Gay discussions or apostrophe bitching.

Dakar · Jun 26, 2006, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I don't know what's more tedious, those Bible vs. Gay discussions or apostrophe bitching.

Maybe if we start handing out gold stars for well punctuated posts?

Landos Mustache · Jun 26, 2006, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I don't know what's more tedious, those Bible vs. Gay discussions or apostrophe bitching.

The apostrophe bitching is just the latest and greatest.

Eug Wanker · Jun 26, 2006, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I don't know what's more tedious, those Bible vs. Gay discussions or apostrophe bitching.

I nominate Kerrigan's bitching post for the most-tedious-post-of-the-week award.

aberdeenwriter · Jun 26, 2006, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar

Maybe if we start handing out gold stars for well punctuated posts?

There's a gay joke to be mined from that comment, I just know there is!

Eug Wanker · Jun 26, 2006, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I certainly know the one who would start such an immature discussion. And it seems atheists are the first to post scripture. And always out of context.

And we're off to a good start...

Landos Mustache · Jun 26, 2006, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

And we're off to a good start...

true.

simonjames · Jun 26, 2006, 04:35 PM

So - according to this study the youngest of large families are likely to turn out gay.

What group in society (until very recently) used to have very large families? Give you a hint - their priests have been in the news a lot these last few years.

We've had the theories that "my mother made me gay" or "an absent father made me gay" - now we have "christianity/catholism made me gay"!! I wonder how the Pope feels about this?

IMO this theory is bollocks as in the last 20 years the numbers that make up a traditional family has shrunk and yet there are many more people willing to face their sexuality and state they are gay.

King Bob On The Cob · Jun 26, 2006, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by simonjames

So - according to this study the youngest of large families are likely to turn out gay.

What group in society (until very recently) used to have very large families? Give you a hint - their priests have been in the news a lot these last few years.

We've had the theories that "my mother made me gay" or "an absent father made me gay" - now we have "christianity/catholism made me gay"!! I wonder how the Pope feels about this?

IMO this theory is bollocks as in the last 20 years the numbers that make up a traditional family has shrunk and yet there are many more people willing to face their sexuality and state they are gay.

That's kinda why they did a study. Now there's numbers that can be pointed at.
It was simply stating a fact. Now what conclusions you infer from them is something else different entirely.

I'm sorta left wondering if these people are really homosexual or just trying to draw attention to themselves.

aberdeenwriter · Jun 26, 2006, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by simonjames

So - according to this study the youngest of large families are likely to turn out gay.

What group in society (until very recently) used to have very large families? Give you a hint - their priests have been in the news a lot these last few years.

We've had the theories that "my mother made me gay" or "an absent father made me gay" - now we have "christianity/catholism made me gay"!! I wonder how the Pope feels about this?

IMO this theory is bollocks as in the last 20 years the numbers that make up a traditional family has shrunk and yet there are many more people willing to face their sexuality and state they are gay.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...61#post3026461

Millennium · Jun 26, 2006, 05:01 PM

And we get a total non-sequitur leap again, from "Lots of gay men have older brothers" to "OMG there must be a biological cause!" Are the people running these studies even trying to be scientific about it?

Landos Mustache · Jun 26, 2006, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

And we get a total non-sequitur leap again, from "Lots of gay men have older brothers" to "OMG there must be a biological cause!" Are the people running these studies even trying to be scientific about it?

The only people who think it isn't biological are some straight people. Pretty much every gay person will tell you they knew they were gay before they knew what sex or love was.

If you aren't gay your opinion on the matter is worthless and honestly not wanted.

Eug Wanker · Jun 26, 2006, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

The only people who think it isn't biological are some straight people. Pretty much every gay person will tell you they knew they were gay before they knew what sex or love was.

That is incorrect. There are gay authors on the subject who say that while sexual orientation has a very strong biological basis, it can be affected by environment/upbringing.

I always wonder if those who dogmatically claim that it is 100% biological are simply watching too much Oprah or whatever, cuz that's the standard for daytime talk-show psychology.

I also wonder if it is this type of thinking that has helped marginalize bisexual individuals in the past, even in the gay community.

If you aren't gay your opinion on the matter is worthless and honestly not wanted.

Landos Mustache · Jun 26, 2006, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

That is incorrect. There are many gay authors on the subject who say that while sexual orientation has a very strong biological basis, it can be affected by environment/upbringing.

So what. That is there opinion. Are they authors or scientists that discovered the gay gene? Did they interview a few gay men about baking with their moms or abusive fathers to conclude that it was upbringing and not genes?

How can you have BOTH "very strong biological basis" AND "affected by environment".

What you are born with the gay gene dormant and if your dad doesn't play enough baseball with you it triggers it? Gimmie a break.

Eug Wanker · Jun 26, 2006, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

So what. That is there opinion. Are they authors or scientists that discovered the gay gene?

There has been no true "gay gene" discovery.

How can you have BOTH "very strong biological basis" AND "affected by environment".

Quite easily, nothing is black vs white in this world (except for MacBooks and iPods).

The way you portray it makes it sound like you're saying that if you're gay, you're 100% gay, and if you're straight, you're 100% straight. Obviously, that is not the case. I mean, let's look at this example: Often times there are men who claim to be straight, yet who have slept with men. They honestly do prefer women (according to them), and like the idea of a traditional marriage and kids, yet they would consider a gay relationship if a good guy came along. Would you call him 100% straight? Obviously not. Would you call him 100% gay? Obviously not. Would you call him 100% bi? Well, maybe, but I would have no idea what "100% bi" means.

What you are born with the gay gene dormant and if your dad doesn't play enough baseball with you it triggers it? Gimmie a break.

Yeah, seriously, gimme a break. You should be able to do better than that in arguing your point.

Zeeb · Jun 26, 2006, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

The only people who think it isn't biological are some straight people. Pretty much every gay person will tell you they knew they were gay before they knew what sex or love was.

If you aren't gay your opinion on the matter is worthless and honestly not wanted.

Not true, I'm gay but am open to the possibility that the cause could be environmental though I have not idea what that could be. For me that doesn't change anything, you still can't change your own sexual orientation no matter how it formed nor should you.

I think gay people get really invested in studies like this one, because if homosexuality could be irrefutably proven to be biological that would have enormous political value. It's just that a few years ago wasn't there something about the hypothalimus being different in gay men as opposed to straight guys? It seems every so often there is a study like this one, which then fades until a new one comes up. I won't believe it until there is solid evidence.

greenamp · Jun 26, 2006, 05:35 PM

I have 2 older sisters, and I'm straight. Theory reverse-prooved.

Eug Wanker · Jun 26, 2006, 05:36 PM

BTW, I don't necessarily separate "biological" vs. "environmental" completely. For instance, hypothetically "environmental" could be say conditions in the mothers womb, yet this would still be "biological" and would affect the person even before s/he were born, while not being completely genetic.

I prefer to think of it as genetic vs. non-genetic reasons, and believe there is probably a combination of the two (with some non-genetic causes being "biological").

Originally Posted by greenamp

I have 2 older sisters, and I'm straight. Theory reverse-prooved.

Yeah, but you don't have older brothers, right?

nredman · Jun 26, 2006, 05:43 PM

i have two older sisters - phew

greenamp · Jun 26, 2006, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Yeah, but you don't have older brothers, right?

Nah, I have 2 older sisters and 1 younger sister.

BRussell · Jun 26, 2006, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

Meh, these sorts of studies don't really say much. One can pretty much do a study on just about anything and come to some sort of conclusion. That doesn't make that conclusion correct. I mean they could've looked at the same group of people, and instead of looking at how many siblings they had, they could have looked at how many moles they had on their bodies. Or what color thier hair is. Or whether or not they come from a broken home. But they chose to look at siblings and drew a conclusion about sexuality from it.

Again I say, "Meh"

Wow what a dismal view of empiricism.

besson3c · Jun 26, 2006, 06:03 PM

So, is sodomy a sin? Can gay Christian lovers commit sodomy in good conscious?

deomacius · Jun 26, 2006, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Zeeb

Not true, I'm gay but am open to the possibility that the cause could be environmental though I have not idea what that could be. For me that doesn't change anything, you still can change your own sexual orientation no matter how it formed nor should you.

I think gay people get really invested in studies like this one, because if homosexuality could be irrefutably proven to be biological that would have enormous political value. It's just that a few years ago wasn't there something about the hypothalimus being different in gay men as opposed to straight guys? It seems every so often there is a study like this one, which then fades until a new one comes up. I won't believe it until there is solid evidence.

A rational and well reasoned response. If you have any links or sources, I'd be interested in reading them.

BRussell · Jun 26, 2006, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

How can you have BOTH "very strong biological basis" AND "affected by environment".

This line of studies is exactly that. The theory is that prenatal conditions influence development of sexual orientation.

Salty · Jun 26, 2006, 06:06 PM

I'm the younger brother, but I only have a sister... she's kinda butch sometimes but... yah. See these studies don't really help because there are a lot of queers who don't have several older brothers.

Doofy · Jun 26, 2006, 06:15 PM

While we're on the subject, what's with the lisp? You know, the gay lisp. Is that put on or does it come with the genes?

Landos Mustache · Jun 27, 2006, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

While we're on the subject, what's with the lisp? You know, the gay lisp. Is that put on or does it come with the genes?

How can anyone here answer that?

And not all gay men have lisps.

Railroader · Jun 27, 2006, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

And we're off to a good start...

AGREED!

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Who here sees this thread taking the path of a bunch of bible quotes, arguing of homosexuality is a sin or not and that the percentage of gays is not 10% but between 1.2 - 2.3% then getting moved to the political lounge or locked.

Railroader · Jun 27, 2006, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

true.

AGREED!

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Who here sees this thread taking the path of a bunch of bible quotes, arguing of homosexuality is a sin or not and that the percentage of gays is not 10% but between 1.2 - 2.3% then getting moved to the political lounge or locked.

aberdeenwriter · Jun 27, 2006, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

The only people who think it isn't biological are some straight people. Pretty much every gay person will tell you they knew they were gay before they knew what sex or love was.

If you aren't gay your opinion on the matter is worthless and honestly not wanted.

I won't comment that your statement is 'gay' to mean it is incorrect. I will just comment that in a world made up of primarily heterosexuals, it is kinda important how we see this, don't you agree?

By the way, I agree with you that many (if not most) gay people were born gay.

aberdeenwriter · Jun 27, 2006, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

So, is sodomy a sin? Can gay Christian lovers commit sodomy in good conscious?

CONSCIOUS: aware or awake, as in: The patient was conscious for an hour, then relapsed into a coma.
www.business-words.com/dictionary/C_2.html

CONSCIENCE: inner sense of right and wrong, as in: Wouldn't it bother your conscience to lie to your friends?
www.business-words.com/dictionary/C_2.html

To answer your second question, I'd say that, generally speaking, lovers should be awake when committing SODOMY.

besson3c · Jun 27, 2006, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

CONSCIOUS: aware or awake, as in: The patient was conscious for an hour, then relapsed into a coma.
www.business-words.com/dictionary/C_2.html

CONSCIENCE: inner sense of right and wrong, as in: Wouldn't it bother your conscience to lie to your friends?
www.business-words.com/dictionary/C_2.html

To answer your second question, I'd say that, generally speaking, lovers should be awake when committing SODOMY.

Oppsies!

I don't know if having anal sex with somebody in a coma is a sin or not since I'm not versed in teh ways of the bible, but it certainly seems like a not-so-nice thing to do.

For those of you interested in SODOMY, I'd like to invite you to my fun thread about SODOMY. We're having quite a party!

Angus_D · Jun 27, 2006, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

The only people who think it isn't biological are some straight people. Pretty much every gay person will tell you they knew they were gay before they knew what sex or love was.

If you aren't gay your opinion on the matter is worthless and honestly not wanted.

I regret to inform you that I do not fit your generalisation. Talking in absolutes is stupid, and ignoring what straight people think is also stupid.

I think any sane person can see that the jury's still out. Gay people come from such a wide range of backgrounds that I can't really see any common environmental factors which "made them gay".