[Sayf-Allah]

[deomacius]

What are YOU laughing at? Vmarks is right.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Then the Israelis regained it.

If we're going to play the kinds of word games you're playing, then this statement is false because Israel and Israelis didn't exist in 1947 either so the Israelis could not have regained the territory. Israelis didn't exist.

Originally Posted by vmarks

T
So she's correct. There never was a Palestine as an independent nation. It existed most recently as the name the Jews had for pre-state-of-Israel.

It doesn't matter if Israelis believe that the Palestine never existed. The fact is that the people that call themselves Palestinians have existed in the region for hundreds and probably thousands of years. And since colonialism was abandoned, local populations have been given autonomy. For this reason, the world committed to giving the people who call themselves Palestinians a state. That is a commitment of a similar magnitude to the commitment given to Jews to create a state for them. So even if Palestine never existed, that has no bearing on whether the Palestinians now, today should have a state. 50 years ago, the world committed to a Palestinian state and Israel isn't going to wipe it off the map either through violence or through denial. No more than the Palestinians are going to wipe Israel off the map through violence or denial.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by deomacius

What are YOU laughing at? Vmarks is right.

Vmarks may have given an accurate history lesson (some would dispute that) but it's irrelevant. The point is that it doesn't matter whether Palestine ever existed in the past. Since 1948, there has been a commitment to CREATE a Palestinian state along boundaries that were fixed at the time. Denying that Palestine ever existed in the past doesn't get the Israelis anywhere. Just as saying that prior to 1948 there was no Israeli state doesn't get the Palestinians anywhere. The reality is that there is a Jewish state today and there is a commitment to create a Palestinian state.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by deomacius

What are YOU laughing at? Vmarks is right.

He's right in the sense of the usual Israeli propaganda. Halftruths is their speciality.

He acts so surprised that Arabs want to be governed by Arabs. Oh, the shock and horror! They didn't want to be ruled by Europeans!

That and the predictability of vmarks is what I'm laughing at.

[vmarks]

There is a commitment to create a Palestinian state where none existed:

The Israeli government is committed to it.
The American government is committed to it.

Everyone is committed to it but the Palestinians, whose governing charters (Hamas Charter and PLO-that-became-the-PA Charter) both state that they will establish a Palestinian state only after destroying the Zionist Entity (Israel) through violence.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

He's right in the sense of the usual Israeli propaganda. Halftruths is their speciality.

He acts so surprised that Arabs want to be governed by Arabs. Oh, the shock and horror! They didn't want to be ruled by Europeans!

That and the predictability of vmarks is what I'm laughing at.

They are ruled by whoever they can bother to elect. They've obviously had some success at this given the number of Arab MPs in parliament.

What I was commenting on was the inconsistency- they only moaned about occupation when it wasn't Arabs doing the occupying. There's a contradiction in trying to have it both way.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Everyone is committed to it but the Palestinians, whose governing charters (Hamas Charter and PLO-that-became-the-PA Charter) both state that they will establish a Palestinian state only after destroying the Zionist Entity (Israel) through violence.

Do you believe for one minute that they might succeed?

Or do you think, like the rest of us, that this is the extreme position that they start the negotiations out at? Like the PLO, once negotiations start, they will give this up and negotiate down to a middle ground.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Troll

Do you believe for one minute that they might succeed?

Or do you think, like the rest of us, that this is the extreme position that they start the negotiations out at? Like the PLO, once negotiations start, they will give this up and negotiate down to a middle ground.

They aren't interested in negotiations other than winning concessions with which to attack.

Oslo shows it. They negotiated arms from Israel so they could arm a security force. The weapons were used to attack Israelis.

Camp David shows it.
Abbas (the moderate, remember) says that he and Arafat went to Camp David with the express intention of rejecting any and all negotiations. Then they came home and launched the intifada they had been planning.

Most recently, Olmert gave arms to Abbas to shore up his position against Hamas, in order to make Abbas look stronger. The arms made their way into Hamas' hands and have already been used in attacks against Israelis.

They've held these extreme positions since their founding and have repeatedly and publicly declared that they have no intention of moderating these positions. With all the evidence indicating they are telling the truth, I cannot understand why you believe otherwise.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by vmarks

They've held these extreme positions since their founding and have repeatedly and publicly declared that they have no intention of moderating these positions. With all the evidence indicating they are telling the truth, I cannot understand why you believe otherwise.

Maybe if they had an honest partner on the other side ... However, the question was, do you honestly believe that the Palestinians might succeed in destroying the Zionist state?

[vmarks]

Actually, I answered the question. You asked if I thought they had a chance of succeeding OR did I think they would moderate their extreme positions.

I answered that they would not moderate their extreme positions.

I have demonstrated why I believe Israel is an honest partner, and I believe that if aided and supported, the Palestinians might succeed in destroying Israel as they proudly intend. Every year it seems that Europe, World Bank, G8, so on, commit billions to Palestinian aid, where America and Israel commit to establishing a Palestinian state. The difference is, the money goes to weapons, the establishment goes to eliminating one of the primary complaints.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I believe that if aided and supported, the Palestinians might succeed in destroying Israel as they proudly intend.

Yeah, well I don't know how much worse things need to get than they are now for others to aid and support the Palestinians. Israel just conducted all out war against a country that hadn't done anything wrong and no one came to help it or the Palestinians. Nor can I think of an alliance that would challenge the alliance of the West and Israel together. Nor can I think of a situation where, even if the Palestinians managed to decisively beat the Israelis, the rest of the world would accept that a state (especially Israel) would disappear off the face of the planet. It's been hundreds of years since that kind of thing happened. In truth, the survival of Israel is tied to the survival of the West and much of the East too. The only way Israel could cease to exist is if Europe, the States and much of the East were taken out at the same time. That isn't going to happen in our lifetime. The Palestinians don't have the kinds of allies they'd need.

[Spliffdaddy]

small wonder.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

small wonder.

Cute! I call mine Big John.

[analogika]

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Troll

Yeah, well I don't know how much worse things need to get than they are now for others to aid and support the Palestinians.

Perhaps if the so-called "Palestinians" deserved help from the civilized world, help would come to them. They do not.

Israel just conducted all out war against a country that hadn't done anything wrong. . .

A war on a country that hadn't done anything wrong? How about acting as a shield for a terrorist group to launch thousands of cross border attacks against a soveriegn country? How about a prime minister who openly praised said terrorist group as the national resistance of his country and the heroes of the Arab world? Nothing wrong. Your hatred of the Jewish state has made you blind to reality.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Troll

Yeah, well I don't know how much worse things need to get than they are now for others to aid and support the Palestinians.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/arti...AN-PLEDGES.xml


Foreign aid goes directly to weapons purchases.

UNITED STATES: $150 million goes to construction, training government officials and other projects, plus $84 million in humanitarian assistance paid through the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees.

EUROPEAN COMMISSION: $148 million, including $21.6 million in direct aid to the caretaker Fatah-led Palestinian Authority. It gave $345 million in 2005.

GERMANY: $76 million, plus $56.6 million given through non-governmental organizations and U.N. agencies.

FRANCE: $73.9 million, including $30.8 million in direct aid to the Palestinian Authority, $6.2 million to the World Bank, $6.2 million to U.N. agencies.

BRITAIN: $61.6 million, half of which goes to U.N. agencies.

NETHERLANDS: $40.6 million, with $6.2 million of it going to the Palestinian government, and the rest given to U.N. agencies and aid groups.

SWEDEN: $30.3 million to U.N. agencies, plus $35.7 million given though NGOs.

ITALY: $27 million

BELGIUM: $13 million.

DENMARK: $4.1 million.

FINLAND: $7.4 million — half to Palestinian Authority projects, the rest to U.N. agencies.

GREECE: $6.8 million, though aid groups.

IRELAND: $4.9 million in aid, of which $923,400 in direct aid to the Palestinian Authority, the rest via aid groups, U.N. agencies.

LUXEMBOURG: $3.7 million, through aid groups.

SPAIN: $2.5 million, to World Bank trust fund for the Palestinian Authority.

LATVIA, LITHUANIA, HUNGARY, ESTONIA, and CYPRUS: Combined total of about $876,000.

In June, GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar, who has been seeking to raise money for the financially strapped government, returned to the Gaza Strip on Wednesday with a suitcase full of cash, Palestinians officials said.

Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar, a Hamas member, returned to Gaza after visiting Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, China, Pakistan, Iran and Egypt. Palestinian security officials said Zahar was carrying $20 million, which was turned over to the Palestinian treasury.

An official said Zahar was believed to be carrying up to $20 million. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to speak to the media. An official statement was expected later Wednesday.

Do any of us really believe that 20 million was going to aid needy Palestinians?

cont'd --Last month, a Hamas official was caught smuggling $800,000 into Gaza. The money was seized but later transferred to the government.

But since Zahar is a VIP, there were no restrictions on his bringing in the cash, the security officials said.


Bringing in five suitcases of cash in smaller bills is a little suspicious. But hey, no problems! It will just dump into the treasury and then be used to buy weapons same as always.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by deomacius

What are YOU laughing at? Vmarks is right.

If Vmarks is right, then Israel has to annex the Westbank and Gaza and give out israeli citizenship to all the people living there.

Taliesin

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

If Vmarks is right, then Israel has to annex the Westbank and Gaza and give out israeli citizenship to all the people living there.

That doesn't follow at all, Taliesin. There is no such thing as Palestine, and God willing there never will be - despite the best efforts of Israel to destroy itself by talking about creating one.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

That doesn't follow at all, Taliesin. There is no such thing as Palestine, and God willing there never will be - despite the best efforts of Israel to destroy itself by talking about creating one.

How does what you say contradict what Taliestin said?

[Big Mac]

Because that fact has nothing to do with annexing the territories.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Because that fact has nothing to do with annexing the territories.

Are you saying that if Israel annexes the territory they don't need to give it's inhabitants (Jewish and Palestinian) full Israeli citizenship?

Or are you saying that Israel doesn't need to annex the territory?


(posting from work so I might be misunderstanding you)

[Big Mac]

I'm saying Israel cannot annex the disputed territories because, as you have stated, Israel would then be obligated to offer citizenship to its inhabitants. But that fact and the other fact that Palestine is a myth are two different matters; one is not a consequent of the other.

[Big Mac]

Can I ask you a slightly OT question, Sayf? Why do you feel it necessary to write "**** your crucifix?" Do you really hate the entire Christian world? Why do you wish to incite them to hate you?

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I'm saying Israel cannot annex the disputed territories because, as you have stated, Israel would then be obligated to offer citizenship to its inhabitants. But that fact and the other fact that Palestine is a myth are two different matters; one is not a consequent of the other.

So if it cannot annex the territories (though the reason for them not being able to do that is not because of any demographic challenge that would create but because it's simply illegal) what do you propose is done to the occupied territory?

[Big Mac]

It is the demographics issue that totally precludes Israel from annexing the territories, of course. But I am a proponent of population transfer, as you may already know.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Can I ask you a slightly OT question, Sayf? Why do you feel it necessary to write "**** your crucifix?" Do you really hate the entire Christian world? Why do you wish to incite them to hate you?

Funny how I'm always the instigator.......

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

It is the demographics issue that totally precludes Israel from annexing the territories, of course. But I am a proponent of population transfer, as you may already know.

Population transfer in what way?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

So if it cannot annex the territories (though the reason for them not being able to do that is not because of any demographic challenge that would create but because it's simply illegal) what do you propose is done to the occupied territory?

That is the dilemma that Israel has lived through for decades and israeli governments had to deal with. The idea the israeli governments and parties had decades back was to keep the "disputed" territories occupied, while prohibitting palestinians from outside to reenter, and trying to give incentives to leave the territories, until they would get empty without having to actually force the inhabitants out. It didn't work though, the demographics played out differently and on top of that the palestinians started to kill scores of israelis inside Israel... so that Israel started to give up the plan for Greater Israel and instead to face the future reality of a palestinian state.

Taliesin

[Big Mac]

And would a bleak future that would be. Selowich has a great sig on it. But that new terror state is not an inevitable prospect.

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Population transfer in what way?

That most all of the Arab inhabitants of Israel be absorbed by Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and any of the other 22 Arab countries (or the other 30 non-Arab Islamic countries) and leave the only Jewish country on the face of the earth alone, so that we may dwell on the land God gave to us as an eternal covenant.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

There is no such thing as Palestine, and God willing there never will be.

God (shouldn't that be G-d?) has no say in this matter. Israel (and practically every other country on the planet) is committed to the creation of a Palestinian state. So it's going to happen God willing or not.

[Big Mac]

Yeah, whatever you wish to delude yourself into believing - good for you. But you should know that both Israel and America have backed away from the Road Map to that nightmare you envision, so you're most decidedly wrong. Even the Europeans have not been blindly supporting Hamas in the same way the supported the king terrorist-embezzeler Arafat, YM"SH. The world is moving away from that bleak scenario. And you are a fool among fools to call God impotent.

I used to hyphenate the word God on this forum, but I'm not writing the word on a forum that respects anyway, nor is it the true name of God. But thank you for being mindful of that Jewish concern.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

and leave the only Jewish country on the face of the earth alone, so that we may dwell on the land God gave to us as an eternal covenant.

Ignoring your wrong interpretations of holy texts, if God had wanted Israel to also gain the Westbank and Gaza, He would have caused the palestinians to die out or at least to dwindle in demographics, but since obviously the opposite happened, it means that God wants Israel to be within the 67-borders.

Taliesin

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

... so that we may dwell on the land God gave to us as an eternal covenant.

Did God leave a map?

I'm interested to know where Israel ends because not even Israel can tell us that.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Ignoring your wrong interpretations of holy texts, if God had wanted Israel to also gain the Westbank and Gaza, He would have caused the palestinians to die out or at least to dwindle in demographics, but since obviously the opposite happened, it means that God wants Israel to be within the 67-borders.

Taliesin

My interpretations are not wrong, Taliesin - the Torah is very clear. Your theology tells you we somehow corrupted God's word, which is a different false claim. But that's a separate discussion we have to pick back up another day, in another thread.

We have a different view on the course of human events in this regard. Our lack of national faith causes God to bring curses upon us, as He promised us when he gave us the Torah. If we had faith in Him, we would have capitalized on the miracle of the Six Day War. Instead, we put more faith in the White House than in God. We are guilty of many of the same mistakes we were guilty of in biblical times, in fact, and God punishes us in much the same way. Which is to be expected, as He does not change.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Troll

Did God leave a map?

I'm interested to know where Israel ends because not even Israel can tell us that.

You argue this topic in an authoritative fashion while betraying your abounding ignorance. Are you sure you aren't goMac's alter ego?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yeah, whatever you wish to delude yourself into believing - good for you. But you should know that both Israel and America have backed away from the Road Map to that nightmare you envision.

They have not backed away from the idea of a Palestinian state. They have both recently REAFFIRMED the inevitable outcome of a Palestinian state. This is not optional for Israel or even America. It has been decided that there will be a Palestinian state. Nothing either of those countries can do will undo the decision to create a Palestinian state. They can both delay the state but they can't stop it from happening.

But I'm interested to know why you don't think that there should be a Palestinian state? I mean, you sound to me very much like the Palestinians that refer to Israel as "Palestine" and want it wiped off the map.

As for God leaving a map, it was an honest question. Do the religious texts set out accurately which land was promised to the Jews?

PS. As for the G-d thing, I grew up in a Jewish neighbourhood, went to a school that was probably 80% Jewish and even though it's not my faith I have to force myself to put the o in God! It feels unnatural every time I write the word!

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

That most all of the Arab inhabitants of Israel be absorbed by Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and any of the other 22 Arab countries (or the other 30 non-Arab Islamic countries) and leave the only Jewish country on the face of the earth alone, so that we may dwell on the land God gave to us as an eternal covenant.

So you propose ethnic cleansing.

But you didn't answer my question. What about the people in the occupied territories and what should be done to the occupied territory in the future?




ps. If my God says that the earth belongs to him and his followers does that mean that I can make that claim as well? Or does that only apply to the chosen ones?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Troll

They have not backed away from the idea of a Palestinian state. They have both recently REAFFIRMED the inevitable outcome of a Palestinian state.

False, prove it.

This is not optional for Israel or even America It has been decided that there will be a Palestinian state. Nothing either of those countries can do will undo the decision to create a Palestinian state. They can both delay the state but they can't stop it from happening.

Israel is a sovereign nation. Israel never signed on to creating such a state - it got close but never signed on. America did sign on to the Road Map but has backed away in recent times. You can claim otherwise, but you have no proof to substantiate such a claim. It is not a fait acompli in any way. Even the Muslim contributors to this thread seemingly agree with me on that point.

But I'm interested to know why you don't think that there should be a Palestinian state? I mean, you sound to me very much like the Palestinians that refer to Israel as "Palestine" and want it wiped off the map.

You have got to be kidding me. Why would any rational person who cares at all about Israel's safety and security want a so-called "Palestinian" state? Such a state would be an utter nightmare. It would be a sovereign base for the next wave of terrorism and warfare against Israel, as envisioned by Arafat's phased destruction plan. It would be the final step toward the legitimization of the illegitimate cause of a false people. And, based on the words of even moderate Muslims, it would not even settle the illegitimate claims to Israel made by the so-called Arab refugees . In short, it would imperil Israel's existence to an even greater degree - and to my mind to such a great degree that Israel would not survive but for direct divine intervention.

As for God leaving a map, it was an honest question. Do the religious texts set out accurately which land was promised to the Jews?

Yes, it is spelled out in the Hebrew Scriptures. The first answer is found in Genesis 15:18. It is referred to as "Greater Israel" by both Jews and Arabs (and their leaders who, prior to Israel's independence, accused Zionists of wanting to establish it). There are additional answers, but I have to get going for work. I'll try to pick it up later.

PS. As for the G-d thing, I grew up in a Jewish neighbourhood, went to a school that was probably 80% Jewish and even though it's not my faith I have to force myself to put the o in God! It feels unnatural every time I write the word!

Then I'm sorry you've adopted such a rabidly anti-Jewish stance. I wonder what provoked your Jew-hatred.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

So you propose ethnic cleansing.

If that's the loaded term you wish to use. I call it population transfer, and it's been done many, many times in the past.

But you didn't answer my question. What about the people in the occupied territories and what should be done to the occupied territory in the future?

Obviously, with what I envision, most all of the Arabs in the land of Israel would be reunited with their brethren in their Arab/Islamic countries. Israel would annex the territories. Then I would return with my brethren in the peaceful liquidation of the exile that is predicted in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Sanhedrin, the Temple and the Davidic monarchy would be reestablished, as prophesied. That's the messianic age - peace on earth. That's what I envision and expect to live to see. May it happen soon, in our days.

ps. If my God says that the earth belongs to him and his followers does that mean that I can make that claim as well? Or does that only apply to the chosen ones?

All of the earth and everything on it belongs to Him, certainly. He already gave your people, the sons of Ishmael, their blessing. He gave the sons of Israel a different blessing. Both are eternal, but neither are interchangable. I went through this point with Taliesin in a previous thread that I have promised to pick back up and intend to. Just haven't had the time - my fault.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

False, prove it.

Pff! Here's Bush in August and Olmert in May. At the time of the ceasefire, they both committed to a Palestinian state but I couldn't be bothered to look for the reference now. You're living in a dream world if you think that there isn't going to be a Palestinian state!

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Israel is a sovereign nation. Israel never signed on to creating such a state - it got close but never signed on. America did sign on to the Road Map but has backed away in recent times. You can claim otherwise, but you have no proof to substantiate such a claim. It is not a fait acompli in any way. Even the Muslim contributors to this thread seemingly agree with me on that point.

The same set of circumstances that lead to Israel's creation committed to creating Palestine. If the commitment to creating Palestine can be undone, then so can the creation of Israel! You make out as if Israel has to sign on. It doesn't. Israel is in occupation of land that was set aside in 1948 for the Palestinians!

Originally Posted by Big Mac

You have got to be kidding me. Why would any rational person who cares at all about Israel's safety and security want a so-called "Palestinian" state? Such a state would be an utter nightmare.

As opposed to the current situation which is raindrops on roses, right? You can complain all you like but it has been decided and affirmed and re-affirmed ad infinitum that the best way of guaranteeing peace in the region is for Palestinians and Israelis each to have autonomy and self-determination.

This is the problem right here in this thread in my opinion. People tend to think the Israelis are rational but they are as motivated by religion as the Arab states are. You have religious nuts on both sides that justify their position by reference to God's promises and religious texts like the Koran and the Bible and you have people on both sides of the fence that think the others don't actually exist as a nation and shouldn't have the right to self-determination.

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yes, it is spelled out in the Hebrew Scriptures. The first answer is found in Genesis 15:18. It is referred to as "Greater Israel" by both Jews and Arabs (and their leaders who, prior to Israel's independence, accused Zionists of wanting to establish it). There are additional answers, but I have to get going for work. I'll try to pick it up later.

A map would be good. As things stand, Israel can't actually tell us where its boundaries are. If it's so clearly expressed in the Torah, then why doesn't Israel just claim the land that is marked as Jewish land in the Torah?

I'll tell you why, but you might not like it. Because your god made you a bunch of promises, their god made them a bunch of promises and the next guy's god made him a bunch of promises. Since the gods are not polite enough to wrestle it out like gentlemen, we can't rely on them to keep their promises to any of you. We have no choice but to decide on who gets the land ourselves. And that's what we did in 1948. We split it up between the Jews and the Palestinians.

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Then I'm sorry you've adopted such a rabidly anti-Jewish stance. I wonder what provoked your Jew-hatred.

You know about the kid who cried wolf right? That's what's happened with your anti-Semitism cry. Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews. If it were, then your statements that there shouldn't be a Palestinian state (which fly in the face of Israel's statements) would be anti-Semitic.

[Big Mac]

No, only one promise was made regarding the land, and Muslims profess to worship the God of the Hebrew Scriptures. The reason why Israel does not make the declaration you mockingly suggested is because my people are weak and lack faith, as I said before. I don't think it's worth trying to reason why you. And you are a Jew-hater, whether you wish admit it or not. Hatred of the Jewish homeland is synonymous with hatred of the Jewish people.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Then I'm sorry you've adopted such a rabidly anti-Jewish stance. I wonder what provoked your Jew-hatred.

You see what you WANT to see.

Your historically understandable need to constantly perceive yourself as under attack is such an integral part of your self-image that it makes you blind to the misdeeds and misjudgements of your own people.

[Big Mac]

You are entitled to your opinion, but your characterization of me is wrong.

Israel is not infaliable. Israel makes mistakes. The Arab-Israeli conflict has been costly for both sides. I do not deny those facts. I think the Oslo Accords and its offspring were Israel's fault, and that horribly misguided endeavor has been the cause of so much terrorist activity. That was Israel's fault for falsely legitimizing a man whose hands were already thoroughly soaked in Jewish blood. There is a reason why Israelis call the 2000 intifada the Oslo War. I believe transfer is the only viable way to stop the bloodshed, but Israel is too cowardly to pursue that course. But for all its faults, the moral high ground is unquestionably with Israel, and anyone who denies that fact is either ignorant or a hater. Or both.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

If that's the loaded term you wish to use. I call it population transfer, and it's been done many, many times in the past.

It's the correct term of what you are proposing. Sorry about that.

And could you give me a few examples of where it has been done before? I'll help you get going by mentioning Jews in Germany. Please provide more.

Obviously, with what I envision, most all of the Arabs in the land of Israel would be reunited with their brethren in their Arab/Islamic countries. Israel would annex the territories. Then I would return with my brethren in the peaceful liquidation of the exile that is predicted in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Sanhedrin, the Temple and the Davidic monarchy would be reestablished, as prophesied. That's the messianic age - peace on earth. That's what I envision and expect to live to see. May it happen soon, in our days.

So besides proposing the crime that is ethnic cleansing you are also proposing another violation of international laws, annexing territory "won" in a war. Any other crimes against humanity you want to propose?

And what is keeping you in the US? You are free to "return with your brethren in the peaceful liquidation of the exile" whenever you want to. Heck, IIRC the Israeli government will even pay some of your expenses.

All of the earth and everything on it belongs to Him, certainly. He already gave your people, the sons of Ishmael, their blessing. He gave the sons of Israel a different blessing. Both are eternal, but neither are interchangable. I went through this point with Taliesin in a previous thread that I have promised to pick back up and intend to. Just haven't had the time - my fault.

If you want to keep it in another thread then please don't bring that up as an argument in this thread. OK?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

And could you give me a few examples of where it has been done before? I'll help you get going by mentioning Jews in Germany. Please provide more.

Uh, no, I'm not proposing genocide, just transfer. I'll find or type up a list for you when I get some extra time after work.

you are also proposing another violation of international laws, annexing territory "won" in a war. Any other crimes against humanity you want to propose?

The lands we're talking about are Israel's disputed territories. They don't belong to another sovereign nation. Furthermore, lands captured in defensive wars are recognized as legitimate under international law.

And what is keeping you in the US? You are free to "return with your brethren in the peaceful liquidation of the exile" whenever you want to. Heck, IIRC the Israeli government will even pay some of your expenses.

At this point I have too many things anchoring me to my home in the United States. More importantly, I do not have the stomach to live in a country that does not have sufficient will to defend its citizenry against atrocious acts of terrorism.

If you want to keep it in another thread then please don't bring that up as an argument in this thread. OK?

You asked me a theological question, and I gave you a theological response. Fair?

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Uh, no, I'm not proposing genocide, just transfer. I'll find or type up a list for you when I get some extra time after work.

I never said (in this thread) that you proposed genocide. But maybe that's the third crime against humanity you are dreaming of?

And I'll wait for that list. Is it directly from jewish virtual library or from some more "respected" source like AIPAC?

The lands we're talking about are Israel's disputed territories. They don't belong to another sovereign nation. Furthermore, lands captured in defensive wars are recognized as legitimate under international law.

No and no. You couldn't be more wrong. But I'll let Troll handle the legal side of this argument. I can't be arsed going into that again.

At this point I have too many things anchoring me to my home in the United States. More importantly, I do not have the stomach to live in a country that does not have sufficient will to defend its citizenry against atrocious acts of terrorism.

What can be more important than God? And isn't it then your duty as a Jew to go to Israel to support those who will commit the crimes you have been proposing here? Why wait for someone else to do it for you?

You asked me a theological question, and I gave you a theological response. Fair?

Actually you brought up the theology in this thread and then when we replied to you on that you want it kept in another thread. Could you make up your mind please?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No, only one promise was made regarding the land, and Muslims profess to worship the God of the Hebrew Scriptures. The reason why Israel does not make the declaration you mockingly suggested is because my people are weak and lack faith, as I said before. I don't think it's worth trying to reason why you. And you are a Jew-hater, whether you wish admit it or not. Hatred of the Jewish homeland is synonymous with hatred of the Jewish people.

Criticism of Israel doesn't equal hatred for Israel either. As I said, cry wolf - you've made anti-Semitism meaningless by using it so readily.

What you did clarify for me though is that you're as nutty as the fundamentalist terrorists on the other side. Saying that Israelis are too lacking in faith to believe that God will keep his promise if they just go and start taking the land promised to them in the Torah? That's precisely the same dogma the other side churns out.

Your idea to kick the Palestinians out of the land they still have left and to annex the land for Israel is nothing more than apartheid. It's never going to happen. If you see anything in your lifetime, it will be the birth of a Palestinian state and that birth will be celebrated in the same way we celebrated the birth of Israel. Self-determination and freedom are constants that we all believe in. Dominance, occupation and denial of self-determination - history my friend. No matter what you say, the world is not going back to annexation, loading people into trains and "transporting" away to camps. Sorry.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

The lands we're talking about are Israel's disputed territories. They don't belong to another sovereign nation. Furthermore, lands captured in defensive wars are recognized as legitimate under international law.

Disputed territories?? What are you talking about? There's no dispute about the territories. They're called the Occupied Territories because in terms of International Law (you know the stuff that created the state of Israel), Israel is in OCCUPATION of land that does not belong to it. They don't belong to any particular sovereign nation. I agree. So what? That doesn't mean they're ripe for the picking by the first state that comes along and declares them annexed. That doesn't mean any state can plonk themselves down in the West Bank and Gaza and start packing the locals off to camps!! They belong to the Palestinian people. That's what international laws (the very same ones that created the state of Israel) say.

And no, you're wrong, international law does NOT recognise that you acquire land through conquest - be that in an offensive or defensive war. I've shown this to be utterly and completely false before.

[Big Mac]

This thread has far outlived its usefulness. You richly deserve your name, Troll. The only person on your side around here that I have any common ground for discourse with is Taliesin.