[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar� 

Occupational training?

But I'm fine with rock breaking.

Yeah, I can see giving people a break if they're first offenders in a non-violent crime. Usually they just need work and some incentive.

But, I do like the rock breaking idea... I'm writing another letter to my congressman...

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by iomatic 

Anyone here actually have and love their children, and see them for the human beings they are: new people who make small mistakes that surely needed to be corrected without violence and conversed with like a real person?

Yeah, we can see how wonderful this generation of children are.

So you're lumping people who don't hit their children with what you consider parents of a poorly-raised generation of children? That's called a logical fallacy.

No, it's called observation, and it's one of the reasons why this culture is going to s*it.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by iomatic 

Funny, you don't see the irony in your own signature:

You reap what you sow. X2

Heh, heh... errr.... no....

There is no irony in my sig compared to what I'm saying. If you allow a child to get away with murder without some form of consequence, you'll pay for it with steadily declining behavior as they grow up testing boundaries that aren't there and pushing the envelope as much as possible.

A child that is undisciplined will result in many a parental heartache down the road.

You will reap what you have sown.

[Tiresias]

I am not in any way against punishment and discipline. But there is simply no need for a teacher to objectivfy children by exploiting the body's capacity to experience pain. The central nervous system shouldn't even come into it. The teacher should articulate a non-violent threat, set the standard for a non-violent approach to conflict resolution, and make an appeal to the intellect and to reason.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by Tiresias 

I am not in any way against punishment and discipline. But there is simply no need for a teacher to objectivfy children by exploiting the body's capacity to experience pain. The central nervous system shouldn't even come into it. The teacher should articulate a non-violent threat, set the standard for a non-violent approach to conflict resolution, and make an appeal to the intellect and to reason.

Yes, because children have LOTS of intellect and reason...

[iomatic]

Discipline ≠ Corporal punishment


pwnd.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

and yet, in this climate of "tolerance" and government cracking down on corporal punishment, crime and violence by children is on the rise.

Wonder why that is... hmmm...

I sure don't remember any school shootings when I was growing up.

Your post commits a cum hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Another example: "Since the 1950s, both the atmospheric CO2 level and crime levels have increased sharply. Hence, atmospheric CO2 causes crime."

Correlation does not imply causation.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by iomatic 

Discipline ≠ Corporal punishment


pwnd.

Huh. I must have missed the part where I was "owned". Oh, you might want to go back and check your spelling on that again.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by deomacius 

Yes, because children have LOTS of intellect and reason...

Yes, children have intellect and reason. It's you I'm worried about.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by Tiresias 

Yes, children have intellect and reason. It's you I'm worried about.

You'd do better to aim your concerns at the people that think like you on the matter.

[vexborg]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

It made me pay attention to my teachers. The possibility that I could be taken out into the hall for a teacher "conference" was enough to keep me in line, most of the time.

I watched a 10 y/o kid cuss out his math teacher once, in front of the entire class. Wasn't the first time he'd done it either, and the suspensions he'd received did nothing to discipline the brat. You wouldn't have seen anything like that happen at the schools I attended, especially towards a member of the faculty. In my day, we responded with "yes sir" and "yes ma'am" when we were addressed in class, not "f**k you!" or "suck me b**ch".

We didn't carry handguns, we didn't plot to kill our fellow classmates, and we had no fear of getting knifed on our way to the lockers. It was a time when people were taught right from wrong, and it was enforced. We have no control of our children because we no longer try to control them.

Our P.C., weak-wristed society has convinced every young boy and girl that they're a special little prince or princess, and because of this, we have failed an entire generation.

You're aboslutely right!

Today children have no respect for adults (at least here in Scotland), they call them names, swears at them, refuses to do what the teachers says, show no respect for other peoples property - like throwing stones, mudballs, eggs and dogshit at windows! And what can an adult do? Not a single thing, if an adult tries to reason with the parents nothing happens, the parents can only tell the children not to do it again... And as a telling off is the only consequence there is, they simply don't care!

If I had done stuff like this when I was a child, I would have gotten spanked/slapped and I would have known not to do it again!

Why, oh why is it the children around here have to be in gangs? We used to play games with our friends, not to terrorise the neighborhood!

And by the way, I'm 34 years old.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by vexborg 

You're aboslutely right!

Today children have no respect for adults (at least here in Scotland), they call them names, swears at them, refuses to do what the teachers says, show no respect for other peoples property - like throwing stones, mudballs, eggs and dogshit at windows! And what can an adult do? Not a single thing, if an adult tries to reason with the parents nothing happens, the parents can only tell the children not to do it again... And as a telling off is the only consequence there is, they simply don't care!

If I had done stuff like this when I was a child, I would have gotten spanked/slapped and I would have known not to do it again!

Why, oh why is it the children around here have to be in gangs? We used to play games with our friends, not to terrorise the neighborhood!

And by the way, I'm 34 years old.

The increase in student disobedience is not necessarily due to the abolishment of corporal punishment in schools. There are a number of causes involved here, and it is not even certain that the abolishment of corporal punishment in schools is one of them.

[Y3a]

The liberal idiots who have been sticking their noses into your family business and threatening lawyers and social services and who are involved in social engineering for the purposes of weakening free societies and turning their populaces into moderates(read wimps ans sissies)are the ones who have doen the most to ruin your kids. It helps to pay lawyers saleries.

[smacintush]

It has been my opinion/observation that at the root of these types of behavior problems is this growing trend to NOT discipline children who are very young. More and more parents seem to let their toddlers run rampant because they don't want to "be mean" or because they feel that since the child doesn't speak english that they won't understand anyway or some other retarded reason.

When a child is old enough to get themselves into trouble they are old enough to BE in trouble. When you discipline a child at that age it forms a respect for authority that they don't even question or understand. It is built into their sub-concious and is not so easily bypassed as when respect is taught like a school lesson at an older age.

This is where spankings real value is, but the PC weenie whiners cry "ABUSE!". Especially since the child is young. It is MY opinion that it is this kind of simple, basic discipline that is useful and it is these very young ages that it is MOST useful. It is here that even many proponents of spanking have it backwards. If you wait until they are old enough to know better, it's too late for spanking and it wouldn't help anyway. (before you pounce, I'm talking about spanking, not BEATING, or assaulting with a belt or piece of wood out of anger)

[DeathToWindows]

I have to say, this is not as much of a cut and dried issue as most of the posters here are making it out to be. Corporal punishment, in my opinion, has a place - as a last resort for dealing with the truly unruly. Some children will be fine with a non-physical form of punishment (e.g. time outs / grounding / etc) while others need something more explicit. So long as corporal punishment is used only when necessary, and when all other options have failed, I do not have an issue with it.

To address the ancillary issue - that of prison and punishment for adult criminals - I am entirely in favor of having them break rocks / shovel manure / choose your less-than-pleasant duty... the idea of just having them sit around, building muscle mass or something seems to defeat the idea of prison. Personally, I would truly prefer that prisons were created as nearly self-sufficient entities so as to defray the cost of housing.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by DeathToWindows 

I have to say, this is not as much of a cut and dried issue as most of the posters here are making it out to be. Corporal punishment, in my opinion, has a place - as a last resort for dealing with the truly unruly. Some children will be fine with a non-physical form of punishment (e.g. time outs / grounding / etc) while others need something more explicit. So long as corporal punishment is used only when necessary, and when all other options have failed, I do not have an issue with it.

To me the point is that it DOES have value. No, not every case warrants it and there are other ways but those who oppose it vehemently deny that it has any value and call it abusive. That is bullshit. Calling it abuse is like calling a woman a prostitute for blowing her husband for diamond earrings.