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lpkmckenna · Nov 28, 2006, 12:12 PM

I LOLed. The Book of Job. Warning - some foul language.

Job always struck me as one of those beyond-absurd fairy tales. The wager between God and "the adversary" reads like something out of Hesiod.

What prompted me to suggest this video was the thread about "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." — Isaiah 45:7. Seems to me that The Book of Job implies that it is the task of "the adversary" to create evil, not God.

Gossamer · Nov 28, 2006, 12:24 PM

The end of that was misleading.

Originally Posted by Job 42

The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

Of course he didn't get his original sons and daughters back, but he did get more children.

- - e r i k - - · Nov 29, 2006, 06:54 AM

Oh your God!

That was biblarious!

imitchellg5 · Nov 29, 2006, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

biblarious!

That's an interesting word.

Chuckmcd · Nov 30, 2006, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

I LOLed. The Book of Job. Warning - some foul language.

Job always struck me as one of those beyond-absurd fairy tales. The wager between God and "the adversary" reads like something out of Hesiod.

What prompted me to suggest this video was the thread about "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." — Isaiah 45:7. Seems to me that The Book of Job implies that it is the task of "the adversary" to create evil, not God.

As with most thing translations get better over time as we understand the language better. The King James (which I assume is what you've quoted from what I can see) has several issues that cause problems of translation... not the least of which is the fact that it's in a language we (for all practical purposes) do not speak.

A more accurate translation of that passage would state that God causes the good times and the hard times. This is not a statement that God creates evil, but that God is intimately aware of all things... good, bad and indifferent.

mac128k-1984 · 08:39 AM

God did not create Evil and there are many Bible passages that state that in him there is no darkness. Now that does not mean he cannot use evil people to further his kingdom and plan. Take Moses and the pharoh, he told Moses that he is going to harden pharoh's heart in order to show the Isrealies His great power.

Also everyone needs to take the Bible as a single unit. Pulling one verse using an old translation out of context and w/o any supporting chapters is wrong. For a non-believer and for a Christians alike. Many people seem to fall into that trap to justify their lifestyle or decision process but to provide a full picture you need context and even sometimes the root word, that is what is the Hebrew or Greek word and how was it used in other passages in the Bible.

Now the book of Job is interesting because it shows that even rightious people suffer and suffer for no good reason. I really don't have any special insight on why these things occured to him but if you read the entire book, you will see God answering Job on why. In a nutshell God is saying do you a created being know my heart and plans? Of course not. That doesn't make it any easier though.

The book is an accurate word picture of the world because sometimes nice people get struck down. Sometimes nice people get struck down because of sin,i.e., shot, stabbed over-dosed etc. but sometimes there's no easy answer on why.

- - e r i k - - · Nov 30, 2006, 08:43 AM

Judging the bible as a whole is even worse with all it's inconsistencies. Did God create light on the first or the fourth day? Man before trees, animals, birds or the other way around? Men and women at the same time or women created out of men? Was he pleased with his creation or not?

And that's just the two separate creation myths.

mac128k-1984 · Nov 30, 2006, 08:54 AM

What are you talking about? Maybe if you read the Bible you'd not sound so ignorant.

Take Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light" and there was light" (this is day one)

Genesis 1:16 God made two great lights - the greater light to govern the day the lessor light to govern the night.

He created light on day 1 and created the sun and moon on day 4. Seems simple enough to understand.

As for your mention of man before everyhting it reads ini Genesis 2 "and no shrubof the field yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field yet sprung up" Seems to me that he created it and they were growing in the earth.

- - e r i k - - · Nov 30, 2006, 09:07 AM

Thank you for highlighting yet another reason why the bible is the work of man - written in context of the geocentric understanding of the world in those days:

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

The stars here, a footnote compared to the sun and the grey lump of rock that's the moon. Heh

But as for your understanding is pretty clear that God formed the animals out of the earth so that Adam could see them and name them, in Genesis 2:19:

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Yet in, Genesis 1 it's clearly the other way around:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Damn, it would be so easy to argue against, hadn't the bible clearly spelt it out.

Oh, and while we are at it, Genesis 1:27 creates man in his own image, male and female. Do you reckon Genesis 2 is the director's cut?

imitchellg5 · Nov 30, 2006, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Judging the bible as a whole is even worse with all it's inconsistencies. Did God create light on the first or the fourth day? Man before trees, animals, birds or the other way around? Men and women at the same time or women created out of men? Was he pleased with his creation or not?

And that's just the two separate creation myths.

Yeah, I'm not sure you quite know what you are talking about. Read Genesis 1 and 2 again. The Bible is quite consistent, especially in the creation account.

Gossamer · Nov 30, 2006, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Do you reckon Genesis 2 is the director's cut?

I reckon Genesis 2 is recounting events, but not necessarily the timeline.

lpkmckenna · Nov 30, 2006, 12:09 PM

Let's stick to the book of Job, shall we?

What does everyone think of the wager between God and "Satan" ??

The notion that God allowed Satan to wreck Job's life over a wager is pretty silly. As in, "Atlas holding up the sky" level of silly.

deomacius · Nov 30, 2006, 12:14 PM

Vote to move to the Political/War lounge!

Gossamer · Nov 30, 2006, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Let's stick to the book of Job, shall we?

What does everyone think of the wager between God and "Satan" ??

The notion that God allowed Satan to wreck Job's life over a wager is pretty silly. As in, "Atlas holding up the sky" level of silly.

I second the move to the PL.

And lpk, you're looking simply at the surface. Just like people say OMGBAD STUFF HAPPENSSS TO US THERES NO GOD they're being shortsighted.

It seems you have a vendetta against religion and you take any opportunity to bash it, no matter how shortsighted or weak it is.

lpkmckenna · Nov 30, 2006, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

Just like people say OMGBAD STUFF HAPPENSSS TO US THERES NO GOD they're being shortsighted.

I've never said this.

Originally Posted by Gossamer

It seems you have a vendetta against religion and you take any opportunity to bash it, no matter how shortsighted or weak it is.

Not really. I like discussing it here because debate about religion is unwelcome in polite society. Do you argue the merits of religion, abortion, war, and so on at the dinner table? I don't.

What's your opinion on the wager, Gossamer?

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

What does everyone think of the wager between God and "Satan" ??

If God doesn't make evil, as implied by the other posters, then what is the Devil in Christianity? That would mean the Devil is outside the realm of God.

Apparently the Jews (some?) think of the Devil not as an evil being, but as the advocate for those to be damned. The one (an angel, perhaps) God sends to test peoples' faith. The one who speaks up for people who no one else would speak for, kinda like a criminal defense lawyer.

In the Jewish sense, that bet makes a little more sense.

What's wrong with Atlas? Gravity, weak and strong forces, dark energy, spooky action; Atlas holds the universe together.

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

But as for your understanding is pretty clear that God formed the animals out of the earth so that Adam could see them and name them, in Genesis 2:19:

Hey Eve, see that big one there with the giant head and tiny arms? No, no, the other one. Yeah, the one with the rows and rows of extremely sharp teeth so they can eat... uh... acorns. Because they're all vegetarians.

Gossamer · Nov 30, 2006, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

I've never said this.

Not really. I like discussing it here because debate about religion is unwelcome in polite society. Do you argue the merits of religion, abortion, war, and so on at the dinner table? I don't.

What's your opinion on the wager, Gossamer?

Actually yes I do. My roommates and I discuss this stuff all the time.
What do I think it means? It's an example to Christ Followers to persevere even when stuff sucks, because there is a greater reward waiting.

Originally Posted by olePigeon

If God doesn't make evil, as implied by the other posters, then what is the Devil in Christianity? That would mean the Devil is outside the realm of God.

C.S. Lewis addresses this in his book 'The Problem of Evil.' If I was a lot more determined, I would read it and have an answer for you.

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Hey Eve, see that big one there with the giant head and tiny arms? No, no, the other one. Yeah, the one with the rows and rows of extremely sharp teeth so they can eat... uh... acorns. Because they're all vegetarians.

Who said they were vegetarians?

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

Who said they were vegetarians?

Creation Museum and Family Discovery Center

Gossamer · Nov 30, 2006, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Creation Museum and Family Discovery Center

What a site...although I did like this page http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...q/dont_use.asp

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 02:18 PM

"One of the first things visitors to the upcoming Creation Museum near Cincinnati,
Ohio, will see as they enter the main lobby will be children playing alongside dinosaurs."

Dakar² · Nov 30, 2006, 02:27 PM

Did they pick a raptor for them to be playing alongside?!

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

Did they pick a raptor for them to be playing alongside?!

I think it's a young tyrannosaurus rex.

Dakar² · Nov 30, 2006, 02:44 PM

Oh, well, that's better then...

iranfromthezoo · Nov 30, 2006, 05:02 PM

if you dont mind I'd like ton interject into this conversation. I always get asked by people who struggle with the existence of God is If there is a God why does he allow such horrible things to happen?

So let's say that there is no God.
If we all agree there is no God is there still evil in the world? Are we still living on a planet filled with violence? Is our history still marred by murder, oppression and corruption? If there is no God is there still evil? The answer, of course, is yes! Well if there is no God and we still have a problem of evil, who should we hold responsible? <B>The good thing about God is we can blame Him for everything</b>
But the question remains, who is to blame?
There is no God so we can't blame Him. Now that we've eliminated God who's to blame?
All we have left is us.

Part of our problem in making sense in this life is we can't make sense of ourselves. We want to blame God because we don't want to take responsibility for our mess. We stop believing in God because he won't change it. Is it possible that God does in fact exist and we are fully responsible for the human condition? Is it possible God created us with the power to create the world of our choosing?

sorry if this went serious or out of context...haven't read after half of the post.

please move to PL lounge vote also.

goMac · Nov 30, 2006, 05:15 PM

The Book of GOB?

: cues Final Countdown :

Cipher13 · Nov 30, 2006, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Let's stick to the book of Job, shall we?

What does everyone think of the wager between God and "Satan" ??

The notion that God allowed Satan to wreck Job's life over a wager is pretty silly. As in, "Atlas holding up the sky" level of silly.

The battle between God and Satan in that story?

Satan as an asshole, because of all the **** he does.

God is even more of an asshole, for allowing it to take place, and encouraging it, then gloating.

What a prick. Inferiority complex anyone?

Shaddim · Nov 30, 2006, 05:52 PM

Needs to be moved to PL.

- - e r i k - - · Nov 30, 2006, 05:52 PM

I say that The Book of Job is one of the more entertaining stories of the bible. It paints the picture of a very human-like God as opposed to the omniscient mystical force.

It is such a nice example of how the human mind has a tendency to anthropomorphize, to project human traits and emotions on to other entities: animals, gods, visual representations, etc.

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

*snip*

Wow, he's back.

Did I miss the homecoming?

Gossamer · Nov 30, 2006, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

The Book of GOB?

: cues Final Countdown :

I've been watching Arrested Development over the past few days!

Gossamer · Nov 30, 2006, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Wow, he's back.

Did I miss the homecoming?

He pops in and out every once in a while.

lpkmckenna · Nov 30, 2006, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

What a site...although I did like this page http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...q/dont_use.asp

That's a long list of "thou shalt nots."

Originally Posted by Gossamer

My roommates and I discuss this stuff all the time.

When I said "polite society," I meant social circumstances where relationships are not based on friendship (i.e. family, work, clubs, etc).

- - e r i k - - · Nov 30, 2006, 10:29 PM

Great, we needed the creationists to tell us this:

“Einstein held unswervingly, against enormous peer pressure, to belief in a Creator.”
Using the normal meaning of these terms, Einstein believed no such thing. See also Physicists’ God-talk.

.

And especially this: Physicists' God-talk

Thanks for the resources.

Taliesin · Dec 1, 2006, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo

if you dont mind I'd like ton interject into this conversation. I always get asked by people who struggle with the existence of God is If there is a God why does he allow such horrible things to happen?

So let's say that there is no God.
If we all agree there is no God is there still evil in the world? Are we still living on a planet filled with violence? Is our history still marred by murder, oppression and corruption? If there is no God is there still evil? The answer, of course, is yes! Well if there is no God and we still have a problem of evil, who should we hold responsible? <B>The good thing about God is we can blame Him for everything</b>
But the question remains, who is to blame?
There is no God so we can't blame Him. Now that we've eliminated God who's to blame?
All we have left is us.

Part of our problem in making sense in this life is we can't make sense of ourselves. We want to blame God because we don't want to take responsibility for our mess. We stop believing in God because he won't change it. Is it possible that God does in fact exist and we are fully responsible for the human condition? Is it possible God created us with the power to create the world of our choosing?

sorry if this went serious or out of context...haven't read after half of the post.

please move to PL lounge vote also.

Good argument, but it inspired me to another argument:

If God didn't exist, we wouldn't be able to recognize evil. It would be seen as so normal as to become invisible to our emotional radar.

The existence of God and good, makes evil visible, without light, darkness would not be known or recognized..

Ok, the argument can also be made the other way around, but still...

Taliesin

Gossamer · Dec 1, 2006, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

That's a long list of "thou shalt nots."

There it is again.

It's a list of weak/ridiculous arguments that people try and use because they found a site on the internet that says it.

olePigeon · Dec 1, 2006, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Good argument, but it inspired me to another argument:

If God didn't exist, we wouldn't be able to recognize evil. It would be seen as so normal as to become invisible to our emotional radar.

God has nothing to do with recognizing good and evil, it's as genetic as birds knowing how to fly. Good and evil is dependent on what is best for the survival of a species.

You should read the book The Giver, great example.