[mduell]

The lack of upgrades (or price drops) at the top-end may disappoint some, but there really isn't anything from any CPU vendor that Apple could offer in the Mac Pro price range. The big upgrade (as always?) is for the midrange model.

The midrange upgrade is in line with previous PowerMacs at the 17-month-after-release point -
G4 launch: $2499 gets 450Mhz/128MB/20GB
G4 update: $2799 gets 667Mhz/256MB/60GB
G5 launch: $2399 gets 1.8Ghz/512MB/160GB
G5 update: $2499 gets 2x2.2Ghz/512MB/160GB
MP launch: $2499 gets 4x2.66Ghz/1GB/250GB
MP update: $2799 gets 8x2.8Ghz/2GB/320GB

[- - e r i k - -]

"'2005 is the year of High Definition Video, and Final Cut Express now delivers stunning real-time HD editing and advanced titling and soundtrack creation tools to customers at the same affordable price,' said Sina Tamaddon, Apple’s senior vice president of Applications."

[Reggie Fowler]

It's been said before and i'm going to say it again. I can't believe that Apple didn't include a blu-ray drive in the new MacPro's. Other computer companies are offering the drives. Apple is normally ahead of the curve on these issues. And if it's because they didn't know whether or not to do blu-ray or hd-dvd...that's a crock. Apple has openly supported blu-ray for years!

[cgc]

Originally Posted by Cadaver 

5-7 week wait.

Specs just state its for "Mac Pro" without mention of revision 1 or 2. It also says "features a PCI Express 2.0 interface for a high-bandwidth connection to the Mac Pro..." which makes me a little nervous - is this ONLY a PCIe 2.0 card; is there a power connector for the previous Mac Pro model?

So does anyone have any clarification on whether or not this card will work in the first version of the Mac Pro?

I asked Apple Customer Service who, after a long delay, assured me the nVidia 8800 GT would work in my 1st rev MacPro with PCIE 1.x. With my student discount I can get an 8800 GT for $314.

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by cgc 

I asked Apple Customer Service who, after a long delay, assured me the nVidia 8800 GT would work in my 1st rev MacPro with PCIE 1.x. With my student discount I can get an 8800 GT for $314.

Thanks. I guess we'll find out for sure in 5-7 weeks...

[bernt]

From Barefeats:

ALERT TO OWNERS OF "OLD" MAC PROS! (CORRECTED)
The GeForce 8800 GT is *NOT* compatible with the older Mac Pro (August 2006, April 2007) as we assumed. I've been informed that new machines use EFI64, the old Mac Pros use EFI32, to work in an EFI32 machine you need an EFI32 ROM. Therefore, the aftermarket GeForce 8800 GT kit is intended for the new Mac Pro.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by bernt 

From Barefeats:

ALERT TO OWNERS OF "OLD" MAC PROS! (CORRECTED)
The GeForce 8800 GT is *NOT* compatible with the older Mac Pro (August 2006, April 2007) as we assumed. I've been informed that new machines use EFI64, the old Mac Pros use EFI32, to work in an EFI32 machine you need an EFI32 ROM. Therefore, the aftermarket GeForce 8800 GT kit is intended for the new Mac Pro.

Seriously? They changed EFI again. I can't imagine that's going to be good for the 3rd party video card market.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by bernt 

From Barefeats:

ALERT TO OWNERS OF "OLD" MAC PROS! (CORRECTED)
The GeForce 8800 GT is *NOT* compatible with the older Mac Pro (August 2006, April 2007) as we assumed. I've been informed that new machines use EFI64, the old Mac Pros use EFI32, to work in an EFI32 machine you need an EFI32 ROM. Therefore, the aftermarket GeForce 8800 GT kit is intended for the new Mac Pro.

I'm glad you posted that. I just heard the same thing. Basically our early guesses that the 8800 GT card would work in older MPs were wrong. It appears Apple would have to offer a special 8800 GT upgrade kit with EFI32 compatible firmware for it to work. I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Macadvo]

So, we still have confusion over whether they'll work or not, Barefeats says one thing while Apple customer support say another. So long "Mac Pro waiting blues" thread hello "8800GT will it work" thread

....and Reggie, give it up on the Blu-Ray man. Apple didn't include one, you want one go buy an aftermarket drive and put it in yourself it's not that hard. Apple will include BR just as soon as the prices become affordable to do so. Your constant whining about it isn't getting you anywhere

[Xyrrus]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I'm glad you posted that. I just heard the same thing. Basically our early guesses that the 8800 GT card would work in older MPs were wrong. It appears Apple would have to offer a special 8800 GT upgrade kit with EFI32 compatible firmware for it to work. I wouldn't hold my breath.

/me grumbles about his $2500 "upgradable" Mac.

They do this every cycle, I'm not sure why I keep being surprised. Why can't they at least NOTE it on their web site?

[Macadvo]

Xyrrus I would hold out a bit longer. The whole EFI32 / EFI64 incompatibility thing just smells a bit off to me. The MP is and always has been a 64bit machine, why would Apple use EFI32 in one and then EFI64 in another?

Does anyone here know the difference? Any way to tell if a card is EFI32 or EFI64? If we know how to tell which a card is I can check my X1900XT and see if it really is EFI32.

[Xyrrus]

Originally Posted by Macadvo 

Xyrrus I would hold out a bit longer. The whole EFI32 / EFI64 incompatibility thing just smells a bit off to me. The MP is and always has been a 64bit machine, why would Apple use EFI32 in one and then EFI64 in another?

Does anyone here know the difference? Any way to tell if a card is EFI32 or EFI64? If we know how to tell which a card is I can check my X1900XT and see if it really is EFI32.

Well as I said the card's estimated arrival date is into March, so I can always cancel the order if it doesn't pan out. Even if it turns out I'm "one of the first" to try it (which I really doubt) and it doesn't work, I'm sure I could whine loudly enough to get apple to take the card back. After all, the site says "For Mac Pro" and I have a "Mac Pro" so /shrug.

I could rant a lot about Apple on this subject, but its all been said before. I just wish they could point blank respond to the posts on their own discussion board. It'd take somebody in Cupertino all of 5 minutes to test. Calling apple and having their techs go "gee, it should work probably" is patently ridiculous and yet that's what is apparently going on.

[Macadvo]

lol you do make valid points there. Personally I think the card will work fine, I can't believe Apple would knowingly create so much confusion, not even they stoop that low, do they?

[Macadvo]

Sod it I just placed my order with the UK Applestore. After reading the thread on Apple discussions where more than one person has been told by Apple Customer Support that the cards will work fine I decided to just go for it.

I figure the 8 day lead time is because these cards won't work without the 10.5.2 update which by all accounts is coming on the same day as Macworld, hopefully I should have my card on or just after then.

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by bernt 

From Barefeats:

ALERT TO OWNERS OF "OLD" MAC PROS! (CORRECTED)
The GeForce 8800 GT is *NOT* compatible with the older Mac Pro (August 2006, April 2007) as we assumed. I've been informed that new machines use EFI64, the old Mac Pros use EFI32, to work in an EFI32 machine you need an EFI32 ROM. Therefore, the aftermarket GeForce 8800 GT kit is intended for the new Mac Pro.

Ah, rat farts!

Anyone know about the new Radeon 2600?

[Macadvo]

Cadaver, don't take this information too seriously just yet. Apple are telling people the card will work just fine, that information has come from a developer who wanted to upgrade all of their existing Mac Pros to 8800GTs and were allegedly told by Apple it wasn't possible.

[Cadaver]

Yeah, but still... I should have learned to expect this from Apple after owning Macs for all these years. Aside from some minor upgrades (HD, RAM) and the hacked-in processor here and there, Apple's machines are still essentially non-upgradable. Expect the hardware you buy to remain in the machine until the day you replace the machine.

I guess now Apple's 8800GT graphics card upgrade for the original Mac Pros costs $2500. As a bonus, they throw in DVI-to-VGA adapter, oh, and a whole new computer, too...

...just don't expect your old RAM to work in it.

Oy vay!

[Macadvo]

lol

Well, more out of desperation for clarification than any expectation that I'll get a reply I fired an email off to steve.jobs(at)apple.com asking if someone at Apple can confirm one way or the other. I doubt I'll get a reply but it somehow makes me feel a little bit better in a very small and insignificant way

[Macadvo]

How things change in a day. Apparently Apple are ringing people who have ordered the 8800GT upgrade kit to tell them it only works in the new Mac Pro and offering to cancel their order. One guy however managed to get through to an Apple tech who said they simply hadn't tested it and were cancelling orders just in case. The guys at Blizzard however, remain adamant that the card won't work but do say they are in discussion with Apple, and hints that it may be fairly easy for Apple to get it working

Rob_ART from barefeats meanwhile has had word from a "contact" (I hate that word) in AMD/ATi who says they have the 2600 working just fine in the old Mac Pro.

Sooooo, I'm not cancelling my 8800GT order just yet. I'm hoping that we can persuade a major Mac/News site to cover this story (hint hint) to try and pressure Apple into acting or at least releasing a press statement.

[shinji]

Bad news: Mac Pro: Video cards from Power Mac G5 computers are not supported

(yes I know the title says G5, but read the last sentence in this article updated Jan 8th... All of these cards are only compatible with the family of computers with which they shipped.)

[Macadvo]

Originally Posted by shinji 

Bad news: Mac Pro: Video cards from Power Mac G5 computers are not supported

(yes I know the title says G5, but read the last sentence in this article updated Jan 8th... All of these cards are only compatible with the family of computers with which they shipped.)

I've also read that support doc and if it wasn't for the fact that Rob_ART from barefeats has had confirmation from ATi that the 2600 works I'd believe it. I think Apple have posted that to cover their backs until something can be worked out, or to stick two fingers up at us all and say sod you we ain't gonna get it working and even if we do we ain't gonna support it officially.

*sigh* I have to go do a night shift soon, just to give me a great end to my day.

[Xyrrus]

Well, while I was out Apple left me a voicemail. It was a real person (not an automated thing) who left her callback info, etc.

Anyways, the message basically went "I'm calling to let you know that the graphics card you ordered is only compatible with the new Mac Pro." and went on with details on how to cancel my order if necessary.

I think when I do cancel I'll call directly and let them know how dissappointed I am. Probably worth just as much as an email to feedback@ (that is, basically nothing) but it might make me feel better.

Apple sells these machines based on expandability. This is absolutely infuriating, especially since the X1900 was outdated when it shipped. For $2500 I expected to be at least offered the chance to buy an overpriced card that's already been out for six months. Instead its nope, new "TOTALLY EXPANDABLE" machine.

[Macadvo]

lol this is just too funny us both posting here and on Ars

[MallyMal]

This is going to be so cool! You realize how hard it is to edit HD video in 867 MHz PowerBook? Good God, this Mac Pro will be orders of magnitude better. And for once I feel that my Mac is current technology. Even when I first bought my PowerBook in 2003 I felt it was behind the times because the PC world had the Pentium M.

[Leonard]

Originally Posted by Xyrrus 

I think when I do cancel I'll call directly and let them know how dissappointed I am. Probably worth just as much as an email to feedback@ (that is, basically nothing) but it might make me feel better.

Well, I think that's a better idea than a petition or (no offense) ranting on a forum. If everybody who ordered it, strongly but politely express their dissappointment to Apple, maybe (and I know this is a BIG maybe) Apple will listen and do something about it. Maybe between all the phone calls they had to make and all the feedback they'll realize how much interest there is in a new video card for the older Mac Pros.

Although I don't feel like ranting on a forum about it, I still wouldn't mind the chance to upgrade my video card. I have a working Radeon X1900XT, so I not too disappointed in my video card.

[SebKom]

(Hope you don't find my post off-topic, sorry if you do so!) Haven't read the whole topic, but with the MacWorld event so close to this announcement, don't you think that they are going to announce something really good at the event?

[Xyrrus]

Originally Posted by Leonard 

Well, I think that's a better idea than a petition or (no offense) ranting on a forum. If everybody who ordered it, strongly but politely express their dissappointment to Apple, maybe (and I know this is a BIG maybe) Apple will listen and do something about it. Maybe between all the phone calls they had to make and all the feedback they'll realize how much interest there is in a new video card for the older Mac Pros.

Although I don't feel like ranting on a forum about it, I still wouldn't mind the chance to upgrade my video card. I have a working Radeon X1900XT, so I not too disappointed in my video card.

I'm posting primarily for the benefit of people who are in the same position, considering the card and not sure if it'll work. Until I got a call this morning it seemed like there was a decent chance it'd work.

I am fully aware that I'm not going to change Apple's mind on anything by posting on a few message boards.

[cgc]

Originally Posted by bernt 

From Barefeats:

ALERT TO OWNERS OF "OLD" MAC PROS! (CORRECTED)
The GeForce 8800 GT is *NOT* compatible with the older Mac Pro (August 2006, April 2007) as we assumed. I've been informed that new machines use EFI64, the old Mac Pros use EFI32, to work in an EFI32 machine you need an EFI32 ROM. Therefore, the aftermarket GeForce 8800 GT kit is intended for the new Mac Pro.

BS. Apple customer service told me it was compatible.

EDIT. Apple customer service just told me it wasn't compatible since my MacPro is PCIE 1 while the new MacPro uses PCIE 2. Is that the issue or is it due to EFI 1 vs EFI 2? WTF? He said my option was the Radeon 1900...yuck.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Seriously? They changed EFI again. I can't imagine that's going to be good for the 3rd party video card market.

It's not a change to the EFI spec, just the version that Apple chose to implement. The linux community has been (publicly) talking about the difference between EFI32 and EFI64 for a while now, and I'm sure other OS vendors were doing the same.

Originally Posted by Macadvo 

Xyrrus I would hold out a bit longer. The whole EFI32 / EFI64 incompatibility thing just smells a bit off to me. The MP is and always has been a 64bit machine, why would Apple use EFI32 in one and then EFI64 in another?

Does anyone here know the difference? Any way to tell if a card is EFI32 or EFI64? If we know how to tell which a card is I can check my X1900XT and see if it really is EFI32.

EFI32 may have been used because they already had 32-bit bootloader code (from the Core Duo Macs); I'm not sure what advantages EFI64 offers over EFI32, nor how to tell the products apart without source code or just trying to run it. I'd guess that both logic boards and video cards could support both EFI32 and EFI64 if the manufacturer wanted them to.

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by mduell 

The lack of upgrades (or price drops) at the top-end may disappoint some, but there really isn't anything from any CPU vendor that Apple could offer in the Mac Pro price range. The big upgrade (as always?) is for the midrange model.

The midrange upgrade is in line with previous PowerMacs at the 17-month-after-release point -
G4 launch: $2499 gets 450Mhz/128MB/20GB
G4 update: $2799 gets 667Mhz/256MB/60GB
G5 launch: $2399 gets 1.8Ghz/512MB/160GB
G5 update: $2499 gets 2x2.2Ghz/512MB/160GB
MP launch: $2499 gets 4x2.66Ghz/1GB/250GB
MP update: $2799 gets 8x2.8Ghz/2GB/320GB

Excellent point.

[Eug]

This whole video card thing is really, really stupid. It just pisses people off. Way to go Apple.

Originally Posted by aehaas 

Since Webster has not defined what constitutes the various types of upgrades you are all right in your descriptions! I actually would say that the new machines are a downgrade as you probably cannot run 10.4 in them

Hmmm... Good point.

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

Apple has been an official supporter of Blu-ray for quite some time. There has never been any question as to which side of the fence they're on.

I fully believe Apple leans Blu-ray, and will eventually release a Blu-ray option (albeit not at Macworld), but Apple's actual official position for the time being is that they support both formats.

Indeed, right now DVD Studio Pro can burn full-spec HD DVD on DVD-R, and these discs play back in DVD Player.app as well as all standalone HD DVD players. The same is not available for Blu-ray at the moment.

That will probably change in the future, but nonetheless, that's Apple's stance on the matter at this time.

[Cadaver]

Cancelled my 8800GT order and ordered a Radeon 2600XT - got to get rid of this 7300GT and I don't want to spend $400 on the 1900XT (maybe if the price came down $100 or so).

So I guess we'll find out next week for sure whether or not the 2600XT works in a rev. 1 Mac Pro.

Apple's attitude on upgrades seems like its getting worse. What do they have to lose by not making the 8800GT rev. 1 compatible? I just don't get it. Maybe I'm not as smart as olde Mr. Jobs, but I can't help feeling like he's trying to get back to $10,000 Lisa computers instead of having to sell a $1,000 iMac.

And of course, when/if they release an ultralightweight laptop, I'll pull out my wallet and feed right back into the cycle. Apple's kool-aide might be poison, but it sure is addictive.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by SebKom 

Haven't read the whole topic, but with the MacWorld event so close to this announcement, don't you think that they are going to announce something really good at the event?

Exactly. Your point is well made and not off-topic.

IMO buying anything during the weeks just prior to Expo is nuts! So much happens there it simply makes sense to wait a week or two. E.g. at Expo issues like what Macs will run 8800GT or whatever will be resolved.

I have been saying this for weeks, but folks just refuse to wait. I guess it is more fun to buy prematurly and then complain.

-Allen Wicks

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by zaghahzag 

yeah it's absolutely an incremental update. The high end machine is barely faster than the old one, with a better base video card.

Sorry, not true. For the kinds of apps that folks who need MPs run, new MPs are capable of being configured to provide much superior throughput.

-Allen Wicks

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

I guess it is more fun to buy prematurly and then complain.

-Allen Wicks

No, but I believe it is OK to complain when the first graphics upgrade in 17 months doesn't work in any previous machine.

Just watch. In two weeks Apple will discontinue the Radeon X1900XT.

[Xyrrus]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Exactly. Your point is well made and not off-topic.

IMO buying anything during the weeks just prior to Expo is nuts! So much happens there it simply makes sense to wait a week or two. E.g. at Expo issues like what Macs will run 8800GT or whatever will be resolved.

I have been saying this for weeks, but folks just refuse to wait. I guess it is more fun to buy prematurly and then complain.

-Allen Wicks

When I ordered the card, my local apple store told me it should work and store.apple.com listed no requirements other than "Mac Pro." Furthermore, with a five week lead time and possibly *increased* demand after MWSF, I don't think my original decision to purchase was premature.

Furthermore, highly technical issues like compatibility between generations of graphics cards are seldom addressed at MW. Didn't we see an entire keynote that went by with almost no "Mac" related info? Not to mention the engineers who'd handle this sort of thing are no doubt caught up in expo fever themselves.

[Macadvo]

I agree, ordering a card listed for use with the "Mac Pro" was neither premature nor foolish. Apple won't be doing or announcing ANYTHING for pre 2008 Mac Pros at MW, you can count on that.

It was only after Apple had launched these cards (with no mention of them being only for "early 2008" Mac Pro models) that any doubt as to whether they work in our older models surfaced. In fact if it wasn't for the folks over at Blizzard and Rob Art at barefeats I dare say we'd all still be in the dark about this and Apple wouldn't have been forced to start telephoning people either.

I still have a glimmer of hope that by the time my 8800GT arrives something will have happened or been released by Apple to enable this card to work.

I simply have a hard time believing that Apple would cripple our Mac Pros in this way intentionally.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Xyrrus 

...highly technical issues like compatibility between generations of graphics cards are seldom addressed at MW. Didn't we see an entire keynote that went by with almost no "Mac" related info?

Not true. Mac Expo is days long, not simply about the brief keynote! I have been to most of the SF Expos, and "highly technical issues like compatibility between generations of graphics cards " are exactly the kinds of things that get discussed at the hundreds of individual booths by folks like me. It is a once a year opportunity to interact face to face with product managers and engineers.

Originally Posted by Xyrrus 

...Not to mention the engineers who'd handle this sort of thing are no doubt caught up in expo fever themselves.

Again not true. Many engineers and other knowledgeable folks are there working - meaning doing booth duty, waiting for some geek like me to come by with technical questions.

-Allen Wicks

[Macadvo]

I hadn't realised that Allen, thanks, and go hassle those engineers!

Actually I've just realised (I think) you answered my question on the apple discussions about adding extra memory/hard drives for Aperture

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Macadvo 

...I simply have a hard time believing that Apple would cripple our Mac Pros in this way intentionally.

Unfortunately Apple has a history of not facilitating retrofit graphics cards (e.g. the G5s). This mess with the 8800GTs is not the first time. Buyers need to plan ahead as best they can when they first buy a new box.

-Allen Wicks

[Macadvo]

Ah but "not facilitating retrofit graphics cards" and going out of their way to make sure a card doesn't work are two very different things.

IF we can believe what's been said so far then the ATi 2600 works fine in older Mac Pros whilst the 8800GT doesn't. Both of these are speculation at the moment granted but from a technical point of view there is no reason why either card shouldn't or couldn't work. It's been more trouble for Apple to make the card(s) not work than work.

I totally agree with you about waiting for Macworld before making major Apple purchases, however I bought my Mac Pro last August (the 31st to be exact) and waiting for Macworld wasn't really appropriate back then. Also I don't think a graphics card can be considered a "major Apple purchase".

I really can't see what waiting for Macworld would do about the current alleged situation we have with the 8800GT. Let's say the rumours about it not working are true, the only thing that would change about that at MW would be that Apple makes it work, if so then ordering now is a good idea. Otherwise they do nothing, the card remains incompatible and I resort to "hacks" to get it working. If Apple were going to launch a pre 2008 Mac Pro version of this card they would have already done so IMHO.

Alistair Hutchinson

[himself]

Mac Pro rev. 1 firmware update, anyone? Specifically for enabling use of newer graphics cards.

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by Eug 

This whole video card thing is really, really stupid. It just pisses people off. Way to go Apple.

Gamers perhaps.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by glideslope 

Gamers perhaps.

No, I think anyone who wished to upgrade their current MacPro to a faster video card would be upset.

[AppleGirl1990]

I had a iMac for the last few years and I just ordered a new MacPro with the 8800. Very excited!!!!

I've read a lot of posts in this forum that old MacPro users are upset because their old machines don't support the 8800 graphics card. Aren't there other graphic cards that old MacPro users could upgrade to? Why the need specifically for the 8800? I would imagine with so many vendors out there, you would have a whole bunch of graphic card options.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990

Aren't there other graphic cards that old MacPro users could upgrade to? Why the need specifically for the 8800? I would imagine with so many vendors out there, you would have a whole bunch of graphic card options.

Iroically, MP owners don't have much choice. Basically they can only install what Apple offers. If you install a generic PC graphics card into a MP you can only use it when you boot Windows. And that narrows the choice down quite a bit:

7300 GT: sucks, nothing more to say
X1900 XT: nice back when the MP was launched (16 months ago), but it can be noisy and a lot of them failed
HD 2600 XT: OK for light use
8800 GT: nice card, but apparently doesn't work in an old MP.

So what should an old MP owner do other than hope to get a 8800 GT? BTW, the 8800GT costs $349, the old X1900 XT costs $399.

[Leonard]

Originally Posted by Macadvo 

IF we can believe what's been said so far then the ATi 2600 works fine in older Mac Pros whilst the 8800GT doesn't. Both of these are speculation at the moment granted but from a technical point of view there is no reason why either card shouldn't or couldn't work. It's been more trouble for Apple to make the card(s) not work than work.

Your forgetting though, that ATI has always sold Mac cards in retail, whereas Apple, historically, has had no interest in selling video cards in retail. So ATI may have intentionally gone that extra step to make sure the card works in both the new and old Mac Pro, so that they would have retail as well as OEM sales. Apple may have just cared that their card worked in only the new Mac Pro (ie. OEM sale only).

mmmm... but then why did Apple put the Geforce 8800GT up for sale as a separate upgrade kit? That part makes no sense, IF it doesn't work in the old Mac Pros.

[Leonard]

Originally Posted by Simon 

BTW, the 8800GT costs $349, the old X1900 XT costs $399.

Good point. Apple didn't even lower the price of the old X1900XT after introducing the new cards. You get less performance for $50 more.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by glideslope 

Gamers perhaps.

Uh no. There are heluvalot of things that make use of 3D speed on Macs, including Apple's own applications.

[Macadvo]

This is true, I think I've posted elsewhere on nn forums that I'm actually more than happy with the gaming performance of the 1900 under windows. I am excited by the gains an 8800GT will give me in Aperture though.