[nana4]

The current version of the G4 CANNOT support DDR. This is why on both the xserve and the new power macs, the DDR (133* or 167*2) is only used between the RAM and the system controller (the one that the PCI slots, Firewire, ethernet etc connect to). From RAM to CPU the bus is NOT DDR. It is either 133MHz or 167MHz (depending on model). I don't know if I can explain it any better than that.

[TNproud2b]

to the dolt that suggested I was wrong about the G4 not supporting DDR....



*high fives himself*

[Love Calm Quiet]

Don't mean to be absolutely rad or anything, but whether the architectural changes will really impact performance might require some actual...

benchmarking

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by nana4:
Not being able to fully recognise the 160GB drive from Maxtor and the 200GB from WD is inexcusable in such an expensive machine.

Please enlighten me; the Apple site clearly says it can support up to four HDs, up to 480GB.

[chris v]

Originally posted by KarlG:


Please enlighten me; the Apple site clearly says it can support up to four HDs, up to 480GB.

That's a sum total-- 120 X 4.

CV

[dr. zoidberg]

Originally posted by X_RuLeZ:
The Xserve and new Powermac both fully support DDR. No it is not some gimmick. I don't know what makes people think this; maybe because it says 133Mhz/167Mhz system bus. Tons of people don't realize that Athlon only have a FSB of 133 and P4 have a FSB of 100 and recently 133. If anyone thinks there is some real reason the PowerMac/Xserve doesn't support DDR please tell me.

well it�s the G4 that doesn�t support double data rate... that�s also why it says "blah blah blah throughput between main memory and the system controller is up to 2.7GBps blah blah"... you see?

so obviously the bottleneck is still there... namely between system controller and the processor(s).

too bad. still i�d like to have a high-end. but not at that price.


EDIT: whoops, seems i have missed a whole page... the issue has already been cleared up. sorry....

[velocipede]

I noticed that MacMinute is reporting that the heatsink on the new G4s is considerably larger, and that there is no processor fan! If this is true, it might seriously make me consider upgrading from the Cube I now have, as the Cube's silence is one of its greatest assets, at least for me. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

[jamesa]

Originally posted by X_RuLeZ:
The Xserve and new Powermac both fully support DDR. No it is not some gimmick. I don't know what makes people think this; maybe because it says 133Mhz/167Mhz system bus. Tons of people don't realize that Athlon only have a FSB of 133 and P4 have a FSB of 100 and recently 133. If anyone thinks there is some real reason the PowerMac/Xserve doesn't support DDR please tell me.

it is a goddamm marketing gimmick

http://www.barefeats.com/xserve2.html

if you don't believe me look at the benchmarks - DDR gives no improvement at all with the G4

-- james

[Leonard]

As well as having 4 RAM slots, 2 optical drive bays, did you also notice the audio-in is back. Looks like some good improvements on the design.

[Phanguye]

the reason that these computers does not fully support the ddr is because the g4 in its current incarnation lacks the ability to write to the ram twice per clock cycle... therefore yea not that much greater

[- - e r i k - -]

knally posted by velocipede:
I noticed that MacMinute is reporting that the heatsink on the new G4s is considerably larger, and that there is no processor fan! If this is true, it might seriously make me consider upgrading from the Cube I now have, as the Cube's silence is one of its greatest assets, at least for me. Can anyone confirm if this is true? [/QUOTE]
Judging from the QTVR, there are not one - but TWO fans along with an enormous heatsink. The processorfan is placed in the middle of the computer, how this will affect sound is not clear...

[climber]

`nally posted by velocipede:
I noticed that MacMinute is reporting that the heatsink on the new G4s is considerably larger, and that there is no processor fan! If this is true, it might seriously make me consider upgrading from the Cube I now have, as the Cube's silence is one of its greatest assets, at least for me. Can anyone confirm if this is true? [/QUOTE]

There is a fan visable in the photos. You can see it in the quicktime movie. It is vertically mounted directly under the back of the CD drives. When the case is closed it would line up with the heatsink.

[climber]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
knally posted by velocipede:
I noticed that MacMinute is reporting that the heatsink on the new G4s is considerably larger, and that there is no processor fan! If this is true, it might seriously make me consider upgrading from the Cube I now have, as the Cube's silence is one of its greatest assets, at least for me. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

Judging from the QTVR, there are not one - but TWO fans along with an enormous heatsink. The processorfan is placed in the middle of the computer, how this will affect sound is not clear... [/QUOTE]

Two fans One large one for the CPU and a smaller one for the drives.

here is the linkApple image

[OwlBoy]

My god that is a huge heat sink.

-Owl

[Jonesy]

Everyone keeps saying that the G4 does not support DDR. I have looked through the Apple webpages and I can't find a single reference to the actual processor used in the new machines. Is it possible that the reason for the delay for the faster models is that newer CPUs are expected which are able to fully support DDR memory? Who knows even the slower ones may have new CPUs in them.

[DNA man]

Two questions and two comments....

1.Why the large delay for the shipping times for the 1.25 GHz models?

2. Why did we not see FW2 here.

These will more than likely be the last PM to run OS9. I see that everything is now in place for 'better' processors.

I thin k Apple should have waited a wee while longer and then released perhaps a better upgrade at MW Paris or MWSF

[velocipede]

<quote>Judging from the QTVR, there are not one - but TWO fans along with an enormous heatsink. The processorfan is placed in the middle of the computer, how this will affect sound is not clear...
</quote>
Ahh well, another unjustifiable purchase posted! Curses! Hey, wait, I could always use a Flat Panel Display, yeah, that's it!

[climber]

Looks like the official name (used by apple) is the:

Power MacG4 Dual Optical.

[milhous]

It also looks like the new 867 box isn't using the 867 processor from the Quicksilvers. Oh well.

[NeoMac]

IMHO, ...

..."pathetic" and "disgusting" come to mind regarding these new PM units.

6-8 weeks for the 1.25GHz units? You mean two MONTHS to deliver? As in "Apple STILL doesn't even have any CPUs faster than 1Ghz"?! It means Moto just started producing them.

Did you notice the tone and quality of the copy (marketing text) on the PowerMac pages, even the marketing department is having a hard time peddling this BS.

Just revolting.

[slider]

Well at the very least they put Duals across the board, it was overdue. Yeah, IBM chips, bet it's gonna be huge too, big numbers out of the gate. Apple might keep Moto in iMacs and eMacs though.

[InterfaceGuy]

Personally, I think the Quicksilver looks much nicer than this new enclosure. When I first went to the front page of Apple today, I thought someone had hacked in and put some of those fake photos from last month on the home page. Then I realized that the fake photos were real and became very sad.

[P]

Remember that poll we had before MWNY? OK, so I was the one posting it, but still: the results were pretty accurate. It seems you can't see old polls after the forum upgrade - try it yourself here - but the bet was on XServe-like RAM config and and 1.2 GHz was the highest rated guess for clockspeed. Maybe the rumor sites should start polls here instead of just guessing...

[rampant]

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
Your a *ucking idiot. What does the xserve have in it? DDR ram. What processor does the xserve have in it a G4. What does that mean? G4 can have DDR ram. That was an old issue some jerkwad dug up on motorola site from like when the first g4's came out. Times have changed since then.

[x] Lamer
[X] Flamer
[ ] Pervert
[ ] Geek
[ ] Spammer
[ ] Racist
[x] Jackass
[x] Troller
[x] Fundamentalist
[ ] Satanist
[ ] "Expert"
[ ] Wannabe
[X] Dumbass
[ ] Waste of Skin/Gray matter/Blood
[ ] Other: Cuntrag
You Are Being Flamed Because:

[ ] You imported another debate into this post
[x] You obviously don't know anything about the topic
at hand
[ ] You posted a 'Top 10' post.
[ ] You posted a 'Religion' post
[ ] You started a long, stupid thread
[ ] You continued spreading a long, stupid thread
[ ] Your post is absurdly off topic for where you
posted it
[x] Your lack of understanding of the fundamentals is
disgusting
[ ] You posted a 'Lord of the Rings' post
[x] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
[x] You posted low-IQ flamebait
[x] You posted a blatantly obvious troll
[ ] You followed up to a blatantly obvious troll
[ ] You said "X rules, Y sucks" and gave no support
for your lame statement
[x] You make no sense
[ ] You made a post yet failed to say anything
[ ] Your sig/alias/avatar is dreadful
[ ] Your post contained nothing but psycho-babble.
[ ] You are claiming that you know more than Newton,
Ohm, Pavlov, etc.
[x] Your awful markup made the post unreadable
[x] You made a baseless assertion
[ ] You posted SCREAMING in RANDOM CAPS (OR IN ALL
CAPS) for NO APPARENT REASON
[ ] YoU tYpEd SoMeThInG lAmE lIkE tHiS
[ ] You say your 'L33t liek Jeffk.', Or your spelling
is so bad that no one can read it.
[ ] You didn't do anything specific, but appear to be
so generally worthless that you are being flamed
anyway

To Repent, You Must:

[ ] Refrain from posting until you have a vague idea
what you're doing
[ ] Stop masturbating for a week
[x] Read every group you posted to for a week
[ ] Give up your AOL account
[ ]Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it
[ ] Tell your Mommy to up your medication
[ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
(monitor must be plugged in)
[x] Actually post something relevant
[ ] Read and memorize the FAQ
[ ] Print your home phone number in your ads
[x] Be the guest of honour in alt.flame for a month

In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[x] Blow me
[ ] Get a clue
[x] Get a life
[x] Go away
[x] Grow up
[x] Never post again
[ ] I pity your dog
[x] You need to seek psychiatric help
[ ] Morons like you give ammo to pro-censorship morons
[ ] Yer momma's so fat/stupid/ugly that etc...
[x] Take your gibberish somewhere else
[ ] Go back to school and actually learn something
[ ] learn how to post or get off the site
[ ] All of the above


So in conclusion, fucking die in a prion spill you brainless jackass, and 2, it's "you're".

GG.

[rampant]

[mac freak]

Think of it this way: If these systems were released at MWNY, we'd all feel much more satisfied. Instead, Apple soured us by having us wait.

I'm hoping for a similarly-sized update at MWSF, including a "real" DDR implementation, some beefier processors (hopefully 1.5 GHz+), and a BTO Radeon 9700.

If that doesn't happen, I think I might just need to do something cRaZy.

[rampant]

Where the hell are my flames?

Those flames were golden.

They were really good and owning, I swear. But the server crashed and ate them. So I'll have to flame him again, but it wont be good. It's kind of... a bummer.

[Edit: Oh wait, there they are! Hies! ]

[saru boy]

What happened to USB2.0 and 1394b? The graphics slot is still AGP 4x too.

Hmmm...makes me think that these models won't be around too long.

On a side note, I noticed that Pixar made a nice profit last quarter...way to go, Steve!

[davecom]

Originally posted by X_RuLeZ:
The Xserve and new Powermac both fully support DDR. No it is not some gimmick. I don't know what makes people think this; maybe because it says 133Mhz/167Mhz system bus. Tons of people don't realize that Athlon only have a FSB of 133 and P4 have a FSB of 100 and recently 133. If anyone thinks there is some real reason the PowerMac/Xserve doesn't support DDR please tell me.

Not that I don't believe you, but where can I see that information about the Athlon and Pentium 4's FSB? Also I don't think we should jump to any conclusions about the new PM's DDR implementation before we know more information.

[morgantruce]

I went to bed last night trying to decide between purchasing a six month old design 933Mhz machine and a just-to-be-released Dual 867Mhz machine.

As an educational pricing buyer, both were close in price. I just purchased the new dual 867. I think this is the first time I ever bought anything more expensive than a newspaper on the very day it came out!

Additionally, this represents a great leap of faith for me... last month I bought an eMac that turned out to have serious video problems. After several go-arounds with Apple Care, they agreed to take it back for a complete refund. I thought that was a very generous gesture--practically unheard of in the computer world. So, today I feel like I rewarded Apple's good faith gesture by buying a new product sight unseen... and yet to be reviewed.

I hope I didn't make a mistake.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by rampant:
Where the hell are my flames?

Those flames were golden.

They were really good and owning, I swear. But the server crashed and ate them. So I'll have to flame him again, but it wont be good. It's kind of... a bummer.

[Edit: Oh wait, there they are! Hies! ]

Rampant... that flame there with the checklist was *the* best flame I've ever read. Congratulations.

[Olorin]

New Power Mac G4 systems use Double Data Rate synchronous dynamic random access memory, also know as DDR-SDRAM main memory. DDR-SDRAM allows the system to read and write data to and from memory on both the rising and falling edge of each clock cycle. This provides twice the throughput of single data rate SDRAM, which reads and writes only on the rising edge of the clock cycle. The resulting throughput between main memory and the system controller is up to 2.7GBps, more than double the throughput from the previous dual 1GHz Power Mac G4. DDR-SDRAM also increases systemwide memory bandwidth to the processors and all other elements of the system.
--------------
Hate to bust your bubble but it clearly says here that the CPU can write to the ram at a Double Data Rate. And for all of you wieners "SHUT THE F*CK UP". Thank you.

[rampant]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:


Rampant... that flame there with the checklist was *the* best flame I've ever read. Congratulations.

Yeah, I know. I give myself extra points for going around the filter without any silly characters.

[rampant]

Originally posted by Olorin:
New Power Mac G4 systems use Double Data Rate synchronous dynamic random access memory, also know as DDR-SDRAM main memory. DDR-SDRAM allows the system to read and write data to and from memory on both the rising and falling edge of each clock cycle. This provides twice the throughput of single data rate SDRAM, which reads and writes only on the rising edge of the clock cycle. The resulting throughput between main memory and the system controller is up to 2.7GBps, more than double the throughput from the previous dual 1GHz Power Mac G4. DDR-SDRAM also increases systemwide memory bandwidth to the processors and all other elements of the system.
--------------
Hate to bust your bubble but it clearly says here that the CPU can write to the ram at a Double Data Rate. And for all of you wieners "SHUT THE F*CK UP". Thank you.

It uses the same fake DDR as the XServe, which, shown through benchmarks, doesn't get performance benefits from DDR like a PC with a real implementation does.

[Olorin]

Oh I'm sure apple just made that all up to piss you off.
---------
New Power Mac G4 systems use Double Data Rate synchronous dynamic random access memory, also know as DDR-SDRAM main memory. DDR-SDRAM allows the system to read and write data to and from memory on both the rising and falling edge of each clock cycle. This provides twice the throughput of single data rate SDRAM, which reads and writes only on the rising edge of the clock cycle. The resulting throughput between main memory and the system controller is up to 2.7GBps, more than double the throughput from the previous dual 1GHz Power Mac G4. DDR-SDRAM also increases systemwide memory bandwidth to the processors and all other elements of the system.
-------
DDR-SDRAM allows the system to read and write data to and from memory on both the rising and falling edge of each clock cycle.

Ummmmm maybe they just made this up and the computer doesn't really have DDR but a "hacked version. Why doesn't that make sense to me? If they have I can see a few law suits coming.

[nana4]

Originally posted by Olorin:
The resulting throughput between main memory and the system controller is up to 2.7GBps, more than double the throughput from the previous dual 1GHz Power Mac G4. DDR-SDRAM also increases systemwide memory bandwidth to the processors and all other elements of the system.
--------------
Hate to bust your bubble but it clearly says here that the CPU can write to the ram at a Double Data Rate. And for all of you wieners "SHUT THE F*CK UP". Thank you.

Umm hallo retard. Notice the words "main memory" and "system controller". Not CPU. It then dribbles on about increased systemwide bandwidth. Sorry you are so wrong.

[CIA]

Besides a few minor differences, these seem to be basically Xserves in Powermac cases.

[rampant]

yes, with XServe fake DDR.

[dr. zoidberg]

yep... and the extra 33 bus-mhz (uuh, OH, SORRY..... in fact WHOLE FAT 34 MHz according to apple pr) alone won�t make too much of a performance gain...

for the sake of fairness let�s wait for some benchmarks, but i guess i can safely show my disappointment already (did everybody take a look at that barefeats-comparison?).

ok apple, so cheer me up... hand me a 1.25 dualie for free and i will say "ah, nevermind.".

[dr. zoidberg]

[ funny stuff happened here. ]

[thunderous_funker]

I guess the good news is the system controller seems to be coming along nicely. Seems like all the parts are in place just waiting for a new CPU.

It's not a Mardi Gras kinda thing, but it's a silver lining, IMO. At least they aren't sitting around bemoaning Moto's apathy and ignoring the rest of the Motherboard.

In terms of massive upgrade and totally new technology, sure it's a non-event. But as someone who admires the platform but can't afford it, I must say that this that the 'low-end' PowerMac for $1700 might be the first time in more than a year that a PowerMac was actually worth it's price tag.

[Tsunami]

and now the bad news:
1) PC's are still faster
2) PC's are still cheaper
3) Will probably switch because of that

[slipjack]

Originally posted by keston:
man, that new font they are using sucks... doesnt look as elegant/stylish

It's Myriad. And it does suck. I agree. And they use it for everything including buttons, graphics, system font, etc. etc.

[X_RuLeZ]

I now see what you mean about the DDR thing. Looking at the apple spec page it show the bandwidth between the CPUs' and the memory controller to be significantly less than thoughput for the rest of the system running @ 226Mhz/333Mhz.

I was hoping these new G4s' would include the rumoured 7470 processor with the MPX+ plus system bus that does include support for DDR. I have now heard that they still have the 7455 with the old MPX bus. At least it is only the processor holding the systems back now, so there will be no need for architectural changes when newer processor become availible.

This is something I don't understand; seeing there are two processors running at 133Mhz/167Mhz will that mean at least some of the 266Mhz/333Mhz bandwidth is utilized. ie 2x 133Mhz = 266Mhz.

[Telusman]

Originally posted by X_RuLeZ:
The Xserve and new Powermac both fully support DDR. No it is not some gimmick. I don't know what makes people think this; maybe because it says 133Mhz/167Mhz system bus. Tons of people don't realize that Athlon only have a FSB of 133 and P4 have a FSB of 100 and recently 133. If anyone thinks there is some real reason the PowerMac/Xserve doesn't support DDR please tell me.

Though it would be nicer to have slighly higher clockspeed I think this new Powermac is a step in the right direction; it doesn't seem so old next to new PC's now. One thing I would have liked is a Radeon 8500 such as they have in the Xserve, it is better than the new 9000.

I believe the PowerPC 7455 cannot take full advantage of DDR ram, however the 7470, which we have not seen yet, can. So if in fact the new Powermacs using PowerPC 7455 chips, the system will be locked into some thing like 1.3gb/sec bandwidth or something like that. Thats actual throughput, not theoretical throughput that apple lists on its sites.

I'm pretty sure this is the reason for the slower performance... correct me if i am wrong.

- Telusman

[Eug]

The Xserve and new Powermac both fully support DDR. No it is not some gimmick. I don't know what makes people think this; maybe because it says 133Mhz/167Mhz system bus. Tons of people don't realize that Athlon only have a FSB of 133 and P4 have a FSB of 100 and recently 133. If anyone thinks there is some real reason the PowerMac/Xserve doesn't support DDR please tell me.

You are correct and incorrect at the same time.

Yes, it is 133, but an Athlon has an EFFECTIVE bandwidth of 266 to the CPU. It is a double data rate implementation.

Yes, it is 133, but a P4 has an EFFECTIVE bandwidth of 533 to the CPU. It is a quad-pumped implementation.

Yes, it is 133, but the current G4 has an EFFECTIVE bandwidth of 133 (or 167 or whatever) to the CPU. It is a single data rate implementation to the CPU (but a DDR implementation elsewhere).

That is not to say that DDR bandwidth isn't being used on the PowerMac/Xserve. It is, but just not by the CPU. Unfortunately, for desktops this is the most important. This may change if chips like the 7470 are introduced.

Get over it people. At this time, DDR on a PowerMac is (for the most part) a gimmick.

[bigv]

What 7470? It's probably about as real as the G5. A phantom just like everything else from motorola. A little jaded? You bet. I put no blame on Apple, they are trying their best to progress under less than ideal circumstances. The blame is 100% on motorola.

It's time for a change. IBM anyone?

[X_RuLeZ]

Yes it is time for a change to IBM, I don't think all the x86 rumors have any basis apart from Steve saying "we have options."

Thank for the explanation Eug; I was aware how DDR works for the P4 and Athlon but I was under the impression the new PowerMac was running a 266Mhz/333Mhz effective FSB. Now I have looked at it I see the 7455 cannot write on the rising and falling edge of the clock, hence no DDR.

The thing I am still not sure about is can both processors running at 133MHz/167MHz make use of the full amount of bandwidth. I don't think my logic is hard to see here but I am not sure how it works in practise.

[Phanguye]

i think the funniest thing and i havent heard anyone mention it is this... if i am not mistaken motorola does not make the motherboards for apple which means that they were not responsible for the 33 mhz boost in the system bus which means that ...drum roll please... these chips have the same multiplier as the old 1 ghz chips

1000/133 = 7.5

and big suprise

1250/167 = 7.5

which means that since the last speed boost....

MOTO HAS MADE ABSOLUTLY NO PROGRESS AT ALL..... IN THE SLIGHTEST......

which leads me to believe that motorola sucks and has reduced the g4 R&D staff to one guy named bob ( who is also responsible for hand crafting every chip )

that is the only reason i can think of... feel free to chime in

phang

damn moto sucks

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by velocipede:
I noticed that MacMinute is reporting that the heatsink on the new G4s is considerably larger, and that there is no processor fan! If this is true, it might seriously make me consider upgrading from the Cube I now have, as the Cube's silence is one of its greatest assets, at least for me. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

You saw the size of the PSU, right?

Quiet? I think not.

These machines are complete crap.