[Kerrigan]

FAQ: OECD PISA

Prima facie, students in the United States render a mediocre performance when compared with the students of other nations, based upon their reading, math, and science skills.

There is an interesting conclusion, however, when you dig a bit deeper. White students in the United States outperform all other predominantly-white nations except for Finland.

If you disagree with this conclusion, feel free to explain your reasoning below. I have provided a link above which you may use as a starting point for gathering your data.

[The Final Dakar]

[Laminar]

Someone's been drinking.

[Athens]

How do you figure

2009 Scores show the US in overall reading scale below Finland, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Netherlands, Belgium, Estonia, Switzerland, Poland, Iceland in that order from top to bottom of mostly white nations.

Across the board the US is far below all the above listed countries in except for a few categories here and there with a few of the European countries.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf

[Kerrigan]

Athens- when the results are broken down demographically, white Americans perform better than all other predominantly-white nations (other than Finland).

The US, as a whole, is simply mediocre, as suggested by the rankings.

[hyteckit]

People from Finland are actually Asians disguised as White folks. Only explanation.

This means the top 5 are all Asian Countries:

shanghai-China 556
Korea 539
Finland 536
Hong Kong-China 533
singapore 526

Canada 524


Canada is at #6, but only because of the large Asian population. Again, the only explanation.

I'm surprise US is above Germany, Sweden, and France.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Athens- when the results are broken down demographically, white Americans perform better than all other predominantly-white nations (other than Finland).

The US, as a whole, is simply mediocre, as suggested by the rankings.

Which breakdowns because I looked at the breakdowns between Math, science and so forth and it was consistent, the US was far below other "Ethnically majority White" countries

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

There is an interesting conclusion, however, when you dig a bit deeper. White students in the United States outperform all other predominantly-white nations except for Finland.

Non-whites > White Finlandians > White Americans > Other white peoples?

Is that an accurate mathematical representation of the situation you have discovered

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

White Americans perform better than all other predominantly-white nations (other than Finland).

Why is this and the supporting OECD data interesting to you?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

There is an interesting conclusion, however, when you dig a bit deeper. White students in the United States outperform all other predominantly-white nations except for Finland.

It would be helpful if you would point directly to where you found this information. "A bit deeper" didn't get me there.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Oh I think I found the source:
Ozzie Saffa: PISA Scores Show Demography Is Destiny In Education Too—But Washington Doesn’t Want You To Know
I see why you kept it under your hat.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Ok here's the problem with that graph, Ozzie Saffa is comparing demographics in the US with aggregates from the other countries (not apples-to-apples), so that's not very informative. Then he makes no accounting for the probability that white Americans are simply richer than other demographics (of America). So he shows that white Americans score about 13% higher than the next lowest demographic, but the OECD report claims that "socio-economic background" accounts for a 16% variance in reading performance (for example) in the US. The effect of wealth on studying in general is different, granted, but I expect it has some effect (though it looks like they didn't graph it for me), and 13% is certainly a reasonable guess.

So in summary, assuming Ozzie is not actually lying on purpose nor incompetent at collecting the numbers, he shows that whites in the US outperform non-asian minorities, but the comparisons with other countries are useless without the demographic breakdown from the other countries too. And the difference could as easily be caused by wealth rather than race itself.

[SpaceMonkey]

Guys, the important point here is that Finland is now our nemesis.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Ok here's the problem with that graph, Ozzie Saffa is comparing demographics in the US with aggregates from the other countries (not apples-to-apples), so that's not very informative. Then he makes no accounting for the probability that white Americans are simply richer than other demographics (of America). So he shows that white Americans score about 13% higher than the next lowest demographic, but the OECD report claims that "socio-economic background" accounts for a 16% variance in reading performance (for example) in the US. The effect of wealth on studying in general is different, granted, but I expect it has some effect (though it looks like they didn't graph it for me), and 13% is certainly a reasonable guess.

So in summary, assuming Ozzie is not actually lying on purpose nor incompetent at collecting the numbers, he shows that whites in the US outperform non-asian minorities, but the comparisons with other countries are useless without the demographic breakdown from the other countries too. And the difference could as easily be caused by wealth rather than race itself.

For once a post I can totally agree with you on. Perhaps there is hope we can start the new year better.

Race does not dictate scores in anything. Culture, Income, Stability, and access dictate performance. Most Asian cultures put a lot of emphasis on education. This is one of the reasons why you see a much higher student population of Asians in universities because its a bigger priority overall for them. American black scores are generally lower not because black people are stupid but because of economics and access. A poorer family in a poorer location is not going to have the same kind of quality education as some one in a wealthy community. Family stresses related to poverty do affect a kids learning ability. They feel the stress too. Im sure the results can easily be proven by comparing the scores between a white kid and a black kid at the same school in a wealthy community with the scores of a white kid and a black kid in a poor community from the same school. I bet the 2 kids in the wealthy community will have much better test results then the kids from the poor community.

North American culture typically does not put a whole lot of importance on education either. Historically we have been far below other countries including poor countries. Iranian teenagers are learning in high school what we learn in first year college.

I have seen some loose studies that try to explain poor overall results from our systems working towards the lowest common denominator in a class room. Typically speaking most class rooms have a few under achievers and its been argued that holds back other students when classes are designed around ensuring every one has a equal opportunity. In other countries such as Africa with decent test scores un healthy or mentally slower kids don't tend to survive let alone get a opportunity to go to school. Places like Iran don't generally have disadvantaged kids in the same classes. Is the studies accurate, I doubt it but its def a possible issue. Over crowding has been said to be a issue as well, but again the student to teacher ratio in some places is much higher yet scores are better. I really think it just comes down to North American attitude. As parents we don't encourage enough out our kids, our schools don't demand enough out of our kids and its not until College that school becomes a important thing for our teenagers.

I know that if I ever have kids, one thing I will focus on from day one is education. And it wont be finding the best possible school and pawning the responsibility of teaching my kid to the school. I will be very active at home ensuring homework is done, and teaching additional material to my kids on top of school. I will make sure for example any kids I have spend 30 minutes a day practicing hand writing which is quickly becoming a lost art. Its nice that you can type everything up on computer but I want my kids to know how to write short hand and print clear.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I will make sure for example any kids I have spend 30 minutes a day practicing hand writing which is quickly becoming a lost art. Its nice that you can type everything up on computer but I want my kids to know how to write short hand and print clear.

Now this is the sort of thing that will improve academic scores across the country. Kids today have such piss-poor handwriting it's not funny. I never see a proper written capital G and it bugs the hell out of me when they make that plain old written G when they're actually writing instead of printing. I think more practice writing cursive characters over and over on lined paper and emphasizing the importance of clear, neat and impeccable handwriting is a quality of immense importance in our education system, and one that has been lost as the lazy kids and parents of today emphasize other, less-important skills like "learning algebra at age 8" and "memorizing the Krebs cycle in its entirety." Who cares if you know those things if you can't write them on paper in neat, precise, perfectly-formed cursive? Let me tell you, professionals like doctors and lawyers and engineers will be the first to tell you that hard work, commitment and dedication to the practice of cursive writing are the foundation of what brought them to the pinnacle of educational excellence, and that ladies and gentlemen is a model I think we should all strive to emulate.

greg

[Athens]

My idea on educational importance

- Early years focus on Language, Math and Music. At least English and a second language. Writing, spelling, grammar to ensure both languages are absolutely fluent. These 3 are also most important very early in life. By grade 4 add into this mix the start of History and Sciences studies. More focus by this point should be put into Math Skills. Grade 10 and 11 should have half the focus on life skills. Cooking, Money management, Credit, parenting, time management. Grade 12 should add a focus on job hunting skills and college skills.

Personally I think every citizen should go through a 2 year boot camp military training after high school which includes continued studies on Mathematics, discipline and personal care skills in addition to intense military training with a heavy focus on fitness. The mandatory service would omit any deployment possibilities except in time of war. After the 2 years a person can continue through military college or start life.

Generally speaking what would come out is a person with good language, writing and math skills in addition to this good life skills and basic military training being a asset to the state. They would also be fit and healthy. Continued Education in College or University should be easier as well.

[Oisín]

Personally I think every citizen should go through a 2 year boot camp military training after high school which includes continued studies on Mathematics, discipline and personal care skills in addition to intense military training with a heavy focus on fitness. The mandatory service would omit any deployment possibilities except in time of war. After the 2 years a person can continue through military college or start life.

Generally speaking what would come out is a person with good language, writing and math skills in addition to this good life skills and basic military training being a asset to the state. They would also be fit and healthy. Continued Education in College or University should be easier as well.

What would also come out is an entire generation of kids who are two years older before they can start studying, and who generally have to wait two years more before they can become a contributing member of society, getting a job and so on.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

What would also come out is an entire generation of kids who are two years older before they can start studying, and who generally have to wait two years more before they can become a contributing member of society, getting a job and so on.

Going to College right out of high school has its disadvantages as well. Almost every one I've seen go straight into college came out working at McDicks because they didn't have work experience to go with the education. Many people changed choices half way through. The ones ive seen on in later came out in a better position.

Personally I think when the economy is good get a job. When its bad go to school.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Going to College right out of high school has its disadvantages as well. Almost every one I've seen go straight into college came out working at McDicks because they didn't have work experience to go with the education. Many people changed choices half way through. The ones ive seen on in later came out in a better position.

What are the statistics on that? Or did you read that in books so you can't post references here? What does that mean for those of us that actually have drive and determination to get an engineering degree in four years and want to start making $$$ right away?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Going to College right out of high school has its disadvantages as well. Almost every one I've seen go straight into college came out working at McDicks because they didn't have work experience to go with the education.

It's remarkable that every one of your posts seems to be dumber than the one before...but you work hard at this I guess. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people who graduate from university and colleges across Canada every year, the vast majority of whom entered post-secondary directly after high school - and yet your opinion is that everyone is going about it wrong because "[a]lmost every one I've seen go straight into college came out working at McDicks"?

Wow. Wow!

greg

That's not to say work-term placement and/or maturity before post-secondary shouldn't be an issue - I dropped out, wasted money, and entered three different programs before I was finished - but that sort of comes with the territory of being under 25, doesn't it? I think work-term placements are definitely the way to go about post-secondary education, but it often isn't feasible....

[Uncle Skeleton]

Give him a break, it's the pain meds. His posts aren't dumber, they're medicateder.

But Athens, clearly posting while intoxicated isn't working out too well, consider a new hobby

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

If you disagree with this conclusion, feel free to explain your reasoning below. I have provided a link above which you may use as a starting point for gathering your data.

So where's the content, thread starter? Was this a post'n'run?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

What are the statistics on that? Or did you read that in books so you can't post references here? What does that mean for those of us that actually have drive and determination to get an engineering degree in four years and want to start making $$$ right away?

"Going to College right out of high school has its disadvantages as well. Almost every one I've seen go straight into college came out working at McDicks because they didn't have work experience to go with the education."

To Answer your question, what does it mean for some one with drive and determination to get a engineering degree in 4 years? Well this is such a SIMPLE AND EASY answer *smack head* insert jesters to express shock and amazement. They go get a engineering degree in four years. OMG we have a winner.

Now answer this one, will a student with a Engineering degree find a Engineering job the first few days out of University? After spending a month looking how long can a student go with no income and debt obligations before they have no choice but to get any job that puts money in their pockets to pay for FOOD and Housing while they search for that good job in Engineering?

Graduates warned of record 70 applicants for every job | Education | The Guardian
A good grade isn't enough, skill sets with a good grade make all the difference.
You want Stats on that go find them yourself. I pointed to a personal observation. It amazes me how people can't read.

Of the people I kept in touch with from high school, about 25 of them went to College and University right out of high school.

Of those easily half of them changed focus half way through. I want to be a Nurse.... 2 years later naw I don't want to be a Nurse any more I want to be a accountant....
Only a few of them actually finished in 4 years and went into the fields they wanted to before they started.

My best friend and I both dropped out of college after the first year and started working right away, and even today we both make more money then most of our friends who went to college. When I got hired to the job im doing now during the interview I was up against fresh out of university students which was who I was replacing as well a fresh college kid that couldn't hack it and it was my years of experience in this work that won me over.

Think about your job and what you do, and if you had 2 people apply to work with you, who would you pick. The 23 year old College degree guy or the 23 year old guy with 5 years job experience and background for what you are hiring for?

Anyways even Canadian universities support waiting a little bit between High School and University and some like UoT and UBC offer gap year registrations.
Should you take a Gap Year?

Who knows maybe one day I will go get a Degree to help the top end of my pay scale potential, but I started out making the same amount with no degree as some one with a degree would have been offered and it was based on skill set and experience. And my pay has been going up the same had I had a degree. I might hit a limit at some point, but considering work will pay for education I can go get that degree over the next few years while employed in the field I would be getting the degree in, knowing a hell of a lot more then had I just gone in out of high school and debt free since work pays for it.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Give him a break, it's the pain meds. His posts aren't dumber, they're medicateder.

But Athens, clearly posting while intoxicated isn't working out too well, consider a new hobby

LOL

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

It's remarkable that every one of your posts seems to be dumber than the one before...but you work hard at this I guess. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people who graduate from university and colleges across Canada every year, the vast majority of whom entered post-secondary directly after high school - and yet your opinion is that everyone is going about it wrong because "[a]lmost every one I've seen go straight into college came out working at McDicks"?

Wow. Wow!

greg

That's not to say work-term placement and/or maturity before post-secondary shouldn't be an issue - I dropped out, wasted money, and entered three different programs before I was finished - but that sort of comes with the territory of being under 25, doesn't it? I think work-term placements are definitely the way to go about post-secondary education, but it often isn't feasible....

You find a few that got the job they wanted right out of University. It takes years to get into the field you want sometimes longer. Experience counts as much as the Education.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

It's remarkable that every one of your posts seems to be dumber than the one before...but you work hard at this I guess.

Originally Posted by Athens 

"Going to College right out of high school has its disadvantages as well. Almost every one I've seen go straight into college came out working at McDicks because they didn't have work experience to go with the education."

To Answer your question, what does it mean for some one with drive and determination to get a engineering degree in 4 years? Well this is such a SIMPLE AND EASY answer *smack head* insert jesters to express shock and amazement. They go get a engineering degree in four years. OMG we have a winner.

?? How does that fit in with this:

Personally I think every citizen should go through a 2 year boot camp military training after high school

Now answer this one, will a student with a Engineering degree find a Engineering job the first few days out of University?

I did. Students with co-op work experience in school do well, too. (100% placement rate for fall '08 grads)

After spending a month looking how long can a student go with no income and debt obligations before they have no choice but to get any job that puts money in their pockets to pay for FOOD and Housing while they search for that good job in Engineering?

Not usually a problem. If you got good grades and got work experience during school, there's a near-100% job placement at graduation.

You want Stats on that go find them yourself. I pointed to a personal observation. It amazes me how people can't read.

You're the one making the stupid claims, the burden of proof is on you. It amazes me how people can't write.

Enter irrelevant anecdotal evidence...

Of the people I kept in touch with from high school, about 25 of them went to College and University right out of high school.

Of those easily half of them changed focus half way through. I want to be a Nurse.... 2 years later naw I don't want to be a Nurse any more I want to be a accountant....
Only a few of them actually finished in 4 years and went into the fields they wanted to before they started.

My best friend and I both dropped out of college after the first year and started working right away, and even today we both make more money then most of our friends who went to college. When I got hired to the job im doing now during the interview I was up against fresh out of university students which was who I was replacing as well a fresh college kid that couldn't hack it and it was my years of experience in this work that won me over.

...

Think about your job and what you do, and if you had 2 people apply to work with you, who would you pick. The 23 year old College degree guy or the 23 year old guy with 5 years job experience and background for what you are hiring for?

The 23 year old guy with 5 years job experience in my field doesn't exist. College degree required for entry. Typically degree + experience is necessary, when they hired me it was the first time they'd ever hired for my position straight out of college, every person I work with has at least 10-15 years on me. You asked the wrong person for anecdotal evidence.

Who knows maybe one day I will go get a Degree to help the top end of my pay scale potential, but I started out making the same amount with no degree as some one with a degree would have been offered and it was based on skill set and experience. And my pay has been going up the same had I had a degree. I might hit a limit at some point, but considering work will pay for education I can go get that degree over the next few years while employed in the field I would be getting the degree in, knowing a hell of a lot more then had I just gone in out of high school and debt free since work pays for it.

Right, your experience in your job field is totally extrapolatable.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Now answer this one, will a student with a Engineering degree find a Engineering job the first few days out of University?

Almost all will within 6 months.

After spending a month looking how long can a student go with no income and debt obligations before they have no choice but to get any job that puts money in their pockets to pay for FOOD and Housing while they search for that good job in Engineering?

They can get a temporary job like everyone else who is temporarily unemployed in their field. Hell, that "temporary job" can turn into a full-time job too - not everyone will always end up in their academic field.

It amazes me how people can't read.

I lulzd

Think about your job and what you do, and if you had 2 people apply to work with you, who would you pick. The 23 year old College degree guy or the 23 year old guy with 5 years job experience and background for what you are hiring for?

Show me a person working without a degree in any professional field...? What about in most management positions? Not to mention that you seem sadly out of touch with what it takes to actually get hired in the first place in today's work environment - not a shocking observation I might add.

Who knows maybe one day I will go get a Degree to help the top end of my pay scale potential, but I started out making the same amount with no degree as some one with a degree would have been offered and it was based on skill set and experience. And my pay has been going up the same had I had a degree. I might hit a limit at some point, but considering work will pay for education I can go get that degree over the next few years while employed in the field I would be getting the degree in, knowing a hell of a lot more then had I just gone in out of high school and debt free since work pays for it.

Going back to school is incredibly tough for many people. Almost no one I know "went back" to postsecondary after taking time off to enter the "real world." You get car payments, a mortgage, and used to a certain style of living - perhaps even kids show up - and suddenly it becomes one of those things you always meant to do, but will never get around to actually doing.