[art_director]

being an art director i am not well versed in the delicate nature of pre-press work. sure, i can pull something together well enough to go on press but it's not my specialty. i'm thankful to all those who do pre-press work, we design folk wouldn't look good without you � it's a team effort.

bmmp's post reminded me of this.

[godzookie2k]

*bows*



(I wear both hats. )

[Prepress Online]

Thanks it's great to know we are appreciated.

[bmmp]

And a mighty hail to all you decent Art_Directors and Creative Designers out there!

Push the envelope, tastefully!

(I wear as many hats I can get my hands on)

[RedStar]

As I am only a lowly graphic design student, can someone explain what pre-press staff does?

[art_director]

Originally posted by RedStar:
As I am only a lowly graphic design student, can someone explain what pre-press staff does?

art directors and designers come up with the concepts / designs / layouts. pre-press folk do anything and everything from kerning your type to adjusting the color of your images to trapping your files to adding bleed, etc, etc, etc. in essence, they finish your job for you.

so why don't designers and art directors do these things?

because it's not our specialty / focus. we're supposed to have an understanding of these things but our job is to build our clients' brands via design. we're supposed to be marketing experts. that said, production is every bit as important as the idea / design for without it the work can look like dung. if i had a euro for every time i saw a great idea ruined by weak production i would be in kauai sipping on a margarita rather than on the tundra in minnesota right now.

many designers poo-poo production people and consider them to be lesser members of the team. i feel quite the opposite. i see my production folk as the people who make my work look good. i think production people should get treated better. they usually get shitty little cubes while designers get window offices and go on shoots all the time. it's not fair, imo. i go out of my way to treat them with respect and solicit their opinions - they often have very good input.

if you're wise, redtsar, you'll befriend your production people in your first job. they'll teach you a hell of a lot that no design school knows much less teaches. you'll also develop an understanding of the very important role they play in your success and the success of your agency and clients.

when i was an intern my copywriter and i were assigned to create an invitation for a big client shindig. we got the job because the rest of the creatives shunned it as a bad project with no budget. being eager young bucks we worked our tails off and came up with a killer idea. having little production experience i was at a loss for how to bring the idea to life in the best possible way. a production person helped me to craft the piece it came out beautifully. then, when we got a bunch of awards for it, the rest of the creative department was pissed. that's when i fell in love with my production people.

sorry, this is way too long. too much coffee...

[EnVoy]

Ditto! There's a couple AD's at my office who should read this thread.....

[RedStar]

Originally posted by art_director:
<snip>

Thanks A_D. My class actually took a trip to burlington today to see some design companies and I was amazed at all the different stages a work goes through.

Taking a GD class does not teach this at all as the student does all the work and (especially alot of people in my classes) uses the poor quality of production as an excuse to bad design. Kinda sad.

[bmmp]

I must concur.
Befriend and understand your prepress department or your output source. These individuals will be the last people to touch your job and they know their film/prepress/pagination machines better than anyone.

Let them know any of your concerns and what to watch out for.

[chris v]

It's nice to know you care. There are WAAAY too many Art Director and designers out there who really give absolutely no thought as to how, or even whether, something might print. I get insanely elaborate files all the time, and when I call the designer to ask his intentions, say "Did you want this process or spot?" "What color of shirt did you envision this on?" etc, the answer is mostly "I don't know. that's up to the client."

People always "have" to have black shirts, with designs that simply won't go on black substrates, for whatever variety of reasons, and neither the client nor the designer wants to listen to me when I tell them why. We're constantly reverse-engineering designs just to make them printable.

The conversation goes like this:
"You know, we're going to have to print a negative of that on a black shirt, and consequently your text will all turn black in these areas, unless we sep it to another plate, which will cost more than you were quoted over the phone."
"What?!? I can't afford that! Are you trying to rip me off?"

Anyway, thanks to the designers that give us printers and pre-press folks a second thought.

CV

[kulverse]

Yes. I have much respect to prepress people. Mainly because of the following. Though I must admit that I have given files to a printer that were not to their specs. I believe everyone has done this though at one point. Luckily I have a good relationship with said printer and all was fixed quickly.

Originally posted by chris v:
It's nice to know you care. There are WAAAY too many Art Director and designers out there who really give absolutely no thought as to how, or even whether, something might print. I get insanely elaborate files all the time, and when I call the designer to ask his intentions, say "Did you want this process or spot?" "What color of shirt did you envision this on?" etc, the answer is mostly "I don't know. that's up to the client."

People always "have" to have black shirts, with designs that simply won't go on black substrates, for whatever variety of reasons, and neither the client nor the designer wants to listen to me when I tell them why. We're constantly reverse-engineering designs just to make them printable.

The conversation goes like this:
"You know, we're going to have to print a negative of that on a black shirt, and consequently your text will all turn black in these areas, unless we sep it to another plate, which will cost more than you were quoted over the phone."
"What?!? I can't afford that! Are you trying to rip me off?"

Anyway, thanks to the designers that give us printers and pre-press folks a second thought.

CV

Awsome. I was an artist at a screenprinter as well. Now I'm in cinema advertising, but yeah...I had to become an expert at fixing professional artists files to print right on the proper substrate and color. It was really annoying. I don't really blame it on the artists though. Design schools don't really teach well enough the importance of spot color, and the various variables of screen printing.

Me: "No sir, we don't want negatives. We are a screenprinter. we use positive film"

Designer: "How the hell does that work, this is real printing right?"

Me: "Yes, we are a SCREEN PRINTER!. We use POSITIVE film and burn the screens with it" ( not really hat rude though)

Designer: "Whatever...here is a 300dpi 4 color process on black shirts. I want them printed at 155lpi. What do you charge for that?"

Me: "Well, process on Black is 6 colors, because we need to print 2 whites undernieth. And given the factor of the grain of the shirts,you may want a bit courser than 155lpi or you'll get moire pattern."

Designer: "huh?"



Well thats better than the small buisness owner who gives you a 72dpi image off the web and wants it full size

Anyway...Sorry for the rant...I'm glad i get to work solely on RBG PhotoShop files now.

[kdogg73]

I honestly don't care how bad the file is produced, as long as the design sells the idea/product and makes us money/produces more business. If the designer was so good at production, then I wouldn't have a job. It's a relationship that gives me a career.

[naderby]

Nice thread, I'm a pre-press monkey.

My favourite?

Client comes in, 'Can I have a price for printing 20,000 A5 flyers in Red and Blue'.

'Sure, 2 spot colours, it'll cost �n'.

Client brings in a RGB JPEG file of lots of shades and blends of Red and Blue.

'We'll have to charge you for full-colour printing'.

'What? I'm going somwhere else! Slam'.

And trust me, so called designers are capable of this. I got a complicated Xmas card yesturday and it came in as layered TIFF files with 100C100M100Y100K black text! From an 'agency'. I get verbably abused by the print team if I let that type of job through.

[gadster]

Originally posted by naderby:
Nice thread, I'm a pre-press monkey.

My favourite?

Client comes in, 'Can I have a price for printing 20,000 A5 flyers in Red and Blue'.

'Sure, 2 spot colours, it'll cost �n'.

Client brings in a RGB JPEG file of lots of shades and blends of Red and Blue.

'We'll have to charge you for full-colour printing'.

'What? I'm going somwhere else! Slam'.

And trust me, so called designers are capable of this. I got a complicated Xmas card yesturday and it came in as layered TIFF files with 100C100M100Y100K black text! From an 'agency'. I get verbably abused by the print team if I let that type of job through.

Yeah, I get that too. Learn photoshop and you will be able to fix these fools' work. Then learn design, and cut them out of the loop.

[buddhabelly]

Originally posted by gadster:
Yeah, I get that too. Learn photoshop and you will be able to fix these fools' work. Then learn design, and cut them out of the loop.

I just typed a long winded bunch of nonesense, then promply hit the back button on my browser. smooth.

Anyways, see my posts here:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...light=prepress

I've recently quit my prepress job, moved across the contry and am writing this from an isolated cabin in the deep woods of Montana.

Actually, I've gone back to school to get my BFA in Multimedia Design. It's going to be a long time before I'll want to work with printed design for awhile. At least on the commercial scale.

[siliconwarrior]

"Yeah, I get that too. Learn photoshop and you will be able to fix these fools' work. Then learn design, and cut them out of the loop."

Indeed. It would seem you are wise to my plan...

[JacobyO]

That is in fact what I have done. I ran a prepress and film house for 8yrs. I was soooo sick and tired of dealing with snooty, know-it-all designers that I decided to leave the prepress part of the business and become a designer that actually knew how to set up a file properly.

The truth is, that most designers are so stuck in their little ways that they won't listen to the prepress guys who only want to offer advice to make their jobs go smoother. Most of the things it takes to properly build a file are actually easier than doing it wrong.

After 3yrs now as a designer I really want to go back to prepress. Here are the pluses and minuses of prepress.

[+] In prepress there is virtually no "opinion" involved. It is a science, and therefore based on numbers and tested procedures. In design, what you think looks good may not look good to the client. "If they know everything about design, why did they hire me?"

[-] Prepress guys always get the blame for a job gone wrong. (rarely the case)

[+] You can always prove that it F#!@ ups weren't your fault.

Sorry for the semi-rant, but believe it or not this is a very controlled post.

I would like to say thanks to those Designers that give props and respect to the people that make it possible for their jobs to print. That understanding will save you a lot of time and money.

[art_director]

Originally posted by JacobyO:
That is in fact what I have done. I ran a prepress and film house for 8yrs. I was soooo sick and tired of dealing with snooty, know-it-all designers that I decided to leave the prepress part of the business and become a designer that actually knew how to set up a file properly.

The truth is, that most designers are so stuck in their little ways that they won't listen to the prepress guys who only want to offer advice to make their jobs go smoother. Most of the things it takes to properly build a file are actually easier than doing it wrong.

After 3yrs now as a designer I really want to go back to prepress. Here are the pluses and minuses of prepress.

[+] In prepress there is virtually no "opinion" involved. It is a science, and therefore based on numbers and tested procedures. In design, what you think looks good may not look good to the client. "If they know everything about design, why did they hire me?"

[-] Prepress guys always get the blame for a job gone wrong. (rarely the case)

[+] You can always prove that it F#!@ ups weren't your fault.

Sorry for the semi-rant, but believe it or not this is a very controlled post.

I would like to say thanks to those Designers that give props and respect to the people that make it possible for their jobs to print. That understanding will save you a lot of time and money.

funny thing, the best art driectors and designers i've known have been the worst with prepress work. it's not that we don't care, we just have deadlines to meet and, when you're working at 3:00 a.m. on a sunday you're not terribly interested in making sure everything is all nicey-nice for production. you just want to get the piece worked out and ready for presentation � that's our job, not prepress work. that said we should try working together to get the best possible results.

to be honest i'm tired of incendiary comments about difficult art directors and designers. while it may well be true what pupose does it serve to whine about them? i assure you there are some cantankerous prepress folk roaming this planet as well.

[kulverse]

argh!!! This thread is making my head hurt Bringing back painful memories.

I'm so happy I'm out of this loop now and deal only in RGB work. Its a dream.

That said...build a relationship with a certain printer and use them whenever you can. That way, all parties tend to get what they want, with no bitching.

[gadster]

Originally posted by art_director:
funny thing,<snip>i assure you there are some cantankerous prepress folk roaming this planet as well.

See, here's the thing - it's funny. As Jacoby said, it is actually quicker to do it right first up. So instead of working until 3am, you could be home in time for sundown. But then you'd miss out on all the toot and adrenaline, I guess.

And, does it really matter if the new Fritolays� packaging appears Thursday or Friday? I mean, really, in the bigger scheme of things? Seriously, in the broader sweep of history, it's ephemera, it's the stuff of landfills. It's tomorrow's trash. It's today's trash, actually.

And to be honest, I'm tired of disorganised incompetent idiots ****ing around with the time I have set aside to be with my kids. That's why I refuse to work in advertising anymore.

Cantankerous? I'm way beyond cantankerous. The management here refer to me as 'The Machine'. And I am trained as a designer. French curves, anyone?. But i do know how to trap.

[art_director]

Originally posted by gadster:
See, here's the thing - it's funny. As Jacoby said, it is actually quicker to do it right first up. So instead of working until 3am, you could be home in time for sundown. But then you'd miss out on all the toot and adrenaline, I guess.

it was just a matter of time before someone here had to go and piss in the cheerios.

in july of this year i did a three week photo shoot out of town. i returned to my studio with the film and procceded to design over 400 billboards and 250 ads. i had nine days to build the files. for those bad with math we're talking over 70 layouts per day for nine straight days. translation: no sleep.

when you're flying through things that fast you do not have time to fuss with the production details. besides, that's what production folk are for and the good ones jump in and do their jobs rather than bitching about it. the ones who bitch leave the business � THANK GOD.

this is not a sport for hot heads and immature people.

i will ignore the toot comment for it is as far from reality as one can get.

the original intent of this thread was to thank and make mention of how much i appreciate production people. i still feel that way regardless of how a pissed off aussie feels about designers, art directors and toot.

may i suggest used car sales as your next occupation?

[Eagle_AS]

I work as a production artist these days and have done graphic design as well. There is no question that designers have it much easier. I enjoyed design, but also do not mind production at all, and have loved learning all that I have as a production artist. I "thought" I knew color until I joined the production end. I think the major concern is fairness and respect amongst professionals (that rarely exist). The business is infamous for crunches and unreasonable requests and really those are the areas that need to be dealt with. If someone comes in and demands that we stay all night to fulfill a promise that they made, either politely decline and tell them its not possible or find personnel that will stay all night or need that extra time. Students are real good for this, because they can't get fit it in on a regular day. IMO, there are plenty of "good" customers out there who understand that people have families and a life outside of work, you just have to "train" them sometimes.

[art_director]

Originally posted by Eagle_AS:
I work as a production artist these days and have done graphic design as well. There is no question that designers have it much easier. I enjoyed design, but also do not mind production at all, and have loved learning all that I have as a production artist. I "thought" I knew color until I joined the production end. I think the major concern is fairness and respect amongst professionals (that rarely exist). The business is infamous for crunches and unreasonable requests and really those are the areas that need to be dealt with. If someone comes in and demands that we stay all night to fulfill a promise that they made, either politely decline and tell them its not possible or find personnel that will stay all night or need that extra time. Students are real good for this, because they can't get fit it in on a regular day. IMO, there are plenty of "good" customers out there who understand that people have families and a life outside of work, you just have to "train" them sometimes.

respect that rarely exists? you've been working in the wrong places.

unreasonable requests? part of the business, if you don't like it pick another career. if a client goes to you and asks you to do something over the weekend and you decline you may well lose that client. do that too many times and you start missing mortagage payments. in other words it makes for bad business, like it or not, someone's always waiting to eat your lunch.

it's rather unfortunate that you consider your clients to be customers. grocery stores, auto mechanics, hair dressers and massage parlors have customers. ad agencies and design shops have clients. our clients are our partners. we work together to build their brands and to form perceptions of their products / services in the minds of consumers. we do not serve them we work with them, period. part of working with them is accepting difficult deadlines and challenges. we MUST be flexible and we MUST be prepared to address our clients' wants and needs at a moments notice in this ever-changing marketplace.

the above is a very important distinction. if anyone here works for a place that considers their clients to be 'customers' i suggest you quit immediately. the company you work for is not worth their salt and your career will suffer in the long run if you follow that patern of thought.

[JacobyO]

Unfortunately, the truth is that there are always going to be a good portion of designers, agencies, and clients that will not appreciate or respect us for what we do. That is why it was nice to see somebody who actually did.

Too many of the designers in this world no so little about what the prepress guys do for them that actually consider them to be the red headed step children of the industry.

And don't say that I don't work in the right area because I do this in the Chicagoland area which is at the forefront of the industry.

art_director, you are a rare breed, in that you appreciate what we do for you. Hopefully you tell your prepress guys that.

As for the "customer" "client" thing...
I think you are getting a bit hung up on syntax. If the word "client" makes you feel more important then thats great, but personally it doesn't matter what you call the people. I can certainly think of much worse things.

[art_director]

chicago is a tv town more than it's a print town. that said some nice work is being done there.

bummer that the photo community is sucking wind in chicago. lots of windy city shooters renting temporary space here in minneapolis in hopes of getting some target, best buy, cargill, honeywell and schwann's business. their success rate is mixed.

as for client vs. customer, no, i am not caught on symantics. walk the halls of the best ad agencies and design firms in the world and you'll find that this very important distinction is what sets the good apart from the bad. we are not vendors, we're partners and they are our clients.

i always tell my pre-press gurus how much i appreciate their work. the cocky ones get a solid whack to the back of the head with a sock full of wet sand. i do the same with arrogant art directors and designers who work under me.

[art_director]

Originally posted by JacobyO:
As for the "customer" "client" thing...
I think you are getting a bit hung up on syntax. If the word "client" makes you feel more important then thats great, but personally it doesn't matter what you call the people. I can certainly think of much worse things.

yes, it does matter what we call these people.

[Eagle_AS]

Hey art_director, you are a weasel I can tell! LOL

[art_director]

Originally posted by Eagle_AS:
Hey art_director, you are a weasel I can tell! LOL

wow, you sure put me in my place.

now let's get back to the original discussion.

[JacobyO]

Originally posted by art_director:
the cocky ones get a solid whack to the back of the head with a sock full of wet sand.

We are forced to be cocky in order to defend ourselves against bonehead designers who think they know a damn thing about what it takes to print a job. Whey they mess up the files and they come to us to place the blame, (because it couldn't be their fault) we have the ability to prove to them that they are once again unable to even do their jobs correctly.

Knowing that, you tend to become cocky.

You should try working outside your little design world and step into the prepress and print world before speaking for those who have.

[Eagle_AS]

art_director - For all your go getter rhetoric, you sure are on this forum a lot. Why aren't you out making sells or hob knobbing with your "clients"??? I am guessing you are a small business owner, or have a background in management (call it a hunch). I understand what you are getting at, and maybe thats true to an extent, but I have a life outside of the office, and that was exactly my point. Part of your "design" should involve more efficient ways of getting the job done. You are proving my statement to be true and I don't care about that sort of mentality, that just my opinion. Save your psycho-babble for your conferences...god bless your employees souls. I have lots of customers who love my work and continue to come back, but they don't dictate how I run my area, and if they don't like it then too damn bad. True, I do not own the business, but I have the respect of the owner. We actually hired a student recently who jumps at the opportunity, for those extra hours when the occassion arises.

[Corys]

Originally posted by JacobyO:
We are forced to be cocky in order to defend ourselves against bonehead designers who think they know a damn thing about what it takes to print a job. Whey they mess up the files and they come to us to place the blame, (because it couldn't be their fault) we have the ability to prove to them that they are once again unable to even do their jobs correctly.

Knowing that, you tend to become cocky.

You should try working outside your little design world and step into the prepress and print world before speaking for those who have.

As a 100% prepress person (= not a creative bone in my body). I always figured it was my job to fix files and prepare them for the press.

If no one threw me a challenge from time to time, damn near anyone could do my job! and what a boring job it would be.

That's what I like about this industry, the problem solving and the crazy ass solutions you can come up to get the job looking right. Sure you gotta put up with some A$$hole clients every once in a while, but you know what??? that's my JOB and that is why I get paid..

[art_director]

Originally posted by Corys:
As a 100% prepress person (= not a creative bone in my body). I always figured it was my job to fix files and prepare them for the press.

If no one threw me a challenge from time to time, damn near anyone could do my job! and what a boring job it would be.

That's what I like about this industry, the problem solving and the crazy ass solutions you can come up to get the job looking right. Sure you gotta put up with some A$$hole clients every once in a while, but you know what??? that's my JOB and that is why I get paid..

corys -- you are precisely the type of pre-press person i was aiming at with my original post.

[art_director]

Originally posted by Eagle_AS:
art_director - For all your go getter rhetoric, you sure are on this forum a lot. Why aren't you out making sells or hob knobbing with your "clients"??? I am guessing you are a small business owner, or have a background in management (call it a hunch). I understand what you are getting at, and maybe thats true to an extent, but I have a life outside of the office, and that was exactly my point. Part of your "design" should involve more efficient ways of getting the job done. You are proving my statement to be true and I don't care about that sort of mentality, that just my opinion. Save your psycho-babble for your conferences...god bless your employees souls. I have lots of customers who love my work and continue to come back, but they don't dictate how I run my area, and if they don't like it then too damn bad. True, I do not own the business, but I have the respect of the owner. We actually hired a student recently who jumps at the opportunity, for those extra hours when the occassion arises.

you'll go far in this business.

[art_director]

Originally posted by JacobyO:
We are forced to be cocky in order to defend ourselves against bonehead designers who think they know a damn thing about what it takes to print a job. Whey they mess up the files and they come to us to place the blame, (because it couldn't be their fault) we have the ability to prove to them that they are once again unable to even do their jobs correctly.

Knowing that, you tend to become cocky.

You should try working outside your little design world and step into the prepress and print world before speaking for those who have.

i suggest you return to the first post in this thread. read carefully and note what was said.

[JacobyO]

Corys, I absolutely agree with you. As I said in my first post, I miss the prepress side of it. I miss the challenges, and the problem solving. I was simply stating that many of the things that prepress people have to fix are things that if the designer had done them correctly in the first place, would save both parties time. That being said from a person who now works for the design end, who would have to pay for that.

As a person who works in the prepress side, go ahead and push yourselves against the wall, and pay us to fix all the stupid little mistakes that you didn't have the knowledge to do correctly. Cocky as that sounds, it's true. That is what makes good prepress guys and keeps them in demand.

To be honest it's the challenge of working on a complex project that pushes the limits of print, that makes me want to do it again.

The best scenario is when you have a relationship with the designer and they are willing to work with you and can set up a job with the end result in mind. That doesn't mean more work for the designer, it means that he doesn't work in a counterproductive way.

art_director: I had not targeted any of my designer critisism at you, and yet you still managed to take offense. If what I called out in my earlier posts somehow applied to you then take it as advice from someone who has seen both sides. Afterall, that is how it was intended. If you have the respect for the prepress guys as your original posted suggested you did then you have a head start.

Sorry for the long post but this needed to be cleared up.

[art_director]

Originally posted by JacobyO:
Corys, I absolutely agree with you. As I said in my first post, I miss the prepress side of it. I miss the challenges, and the problem solving. I was simply stating that many of the things that prepress people have to fix are things that if the designer had done them correctly in the first place, would save both parties time. That being said from a person who now works for the design end, who would have to pay for that.

As a person who works in the prepress side, go ahead and push yourselves against the wall, and pay us to fix all the stupid little mistakes that you didn't have the knowledge to do correctly. Cocky as that sounds, it's true. That is what makes good prepress guys and keeps them in demand.

To be honest it's the challenge of working on a complex project that pushes the limits of print, that makes me want to do it again.

The best scenario is when you have a relationship with the designer and they are willing to work with you and can set up a job with the end result in mind. That doesn't mean more work for the designer, it means that he doesn't work in a counterproductive way.

art_director: I had not targeted any of my designer critisism at you, and yet you still managed to take offense. If what I called out in my earlier posts somehow applied to you then take it as advice from someone who has seen both sides. Afterall, that is how it was intended. If you have the respect for the prepress guys as your original posted suggested you did then you have a head start.

Sorry for the long post but this needed to be cleared up.

it's unfortunate that a well meaning thread has been tainted by the immaturity of some.

as for me, well, i am confident in my abilities with design and production. am i a prepress guru? no, if i spent all my time preping files i wouldn't have time to concept, design, cover shoots, present, make tv commercials and website designs or video walls. i rely on the expertise and professionalism of the support staff in place. without them less work would get done. and, at the end of the day, i am hired to create, not kern type, add crop marks, etc. those are important things but not what i am hired to do.

the previously offended can bitch and gripe as they wish, makes no difference to me.

[naderby]

Let's get back onto some decent conversation.

In my (fairly vast) experience, designers working at serious pace (70 layouts a day!) will not at that stage even think about how the layouts will go on the press. It doesn't matter at that stage. Most of the layouts never make it so why would anyone bother? Fact is, you'd be silly not just comping in RGB whilst weeding out the good from the bad. Comping is basically scribbling, or butchering, layouts just to see how they work. Even photos that are cut out of there backgrounds are fairly rough.

What should then happen is the layouts that are chosen would be re-built for press, taking the quick comp layout and re-building to pre-press standards with proper care to overprinting, spot colours etc. Now this is where designers often get lazy, or often don't have the time or don't know how, to do a proper job. If the print quality is let down by this it is entirely the fault of the designer unless the designer has paid for prepress work to be done on their artwork. If they haven�t or won�t pay, the artwork should be rejected and the designer will learn the hard way.

Now obviously there are designers out there that don't know what spot colour is. These aren't designers. Well, maybe that is what they call themselves, but they aren�t really. Imagine employing an architect that doesn�t know the basics of building materials? He doesn�t have to be a surveyor or draftsman, but he can�t do his job if he doesn�t understand the basics. The house would fall down!

It is entirely the fault of the desktop publishing revolution that has brought us people that believe they are designers because they have Microsoft Publisher installed on their PC. Its like have a Microsoft Housebuilder program on everyone's PC and everyone handing in the designs for their new house.

They really do think that they can apply for Print Designer jobs. My local further education establishment does a professional Art & Desktop Publishing course run in Publisher! We get people applying to work at our place straight from the course which they paid for and can�t understand why they are getting rejected!

Truth is, the best designers somehow eventually find themselves in the best agencies, which in turn rely on the best printers and their own best pre-press gurus. The rest can keep fumbling along.

Wow! Did I just write all that?

[JacobyO]

Exactly!

The part about everybody with a computer and Microsoft Publisher thinking they are a designer is soooooooo true.

Customer: I did this layout in Super Mario paint, and I want to get 1000 prints made.

Prepress tech: I am sorry we aren't able to use that file type because our RIPs won't handle it.

Customer: but it printed out on my epson just fine.

Prepress: Oh, ok. Great. Here is what you do. Print to your Epson again, only this time under No. of Copies, put 1000.

[naderby]

Originally posted by JacobyO:
Prepress: Oh, ok. Great. Here is what you do. Print to your Epson again, only this time under No. of Copies, put 1000.

[art_director]

Originally posted by JacobyO:
Exactly!

The part about everybody with a computer and Microsoft Publisher thinking they are a designer is soooooooo true.

Customer: I did this layout in Super Mario paint, and I want to get 1000 prints made.

Prepress tech: I am sorry we aren't able to use that file type because our RIPs won't handle it.

Customer: but it printed out on my epson just fine.

Prepress: Oh, ok. Great. Here is what you do. Print to your Epson again, only this time under No. of Copies, put 1000.

it's become apparent that many folks here are of the service bureau sort. my original post was targeted at in-house ad agency and design shop folk � shoulda clarified. service bureaus get the **** from every flying monkey on the planet.

as for the prepress gurus who work for printers, well, if they have a bitch for stuff coming from agencies they can point at their own ilk. most often there is a production department that sorts files prior to sending them to printers.

some of the people posting in this thread clearly do not understand the jobs of art directors and designers.

let me explain one thing to help.

the agencies i've worked for have billed me out at $225 - 275 / hour. that cost is justified because of my brand expertise, not to have me kern type and build files � that's what my support production gurus are for. no client on the planet would spend that kind of cash to have me set crop marks and add bleed � i'm paid to build brands and to do it as quickly as possible. period.

if some prepress guru were to tell me they hated cleaning up my files i would have to encourage them to change their line of work because that's what the job is, like it or not.

remember: no one made you go into advertising. you made that choice yourself. don't like your gig? then change your circumstances.

[RGB]

Can't say that I've had to make the jump to print work, and associated CMYK yet. Just do a lot of web design work. Print work will come shortly though in my graphic design major.

[art_director]

Originally posted by RGB:
Can't say that I've had to make the jump to print work, and associated CMYK yet. Just do a lot of web design work. Print work will come shortly though in my graphic design major.

hey rgb, that sounds interesting.
you started with interactive and then will go into print?
how did they cover design principles?
was the interactive more intensive than the print will be?
do they see a brighter future in interactive than print?
what school are you attending?
thx and good luck with your studies.

[RGB]

Originally posted by art_director:
hey rgb, that sounds interesting.
you started with interactive and then will go into print?
how did they cover design principles?
was the interactive more intensive than the print will be?
do they see a brighter future in interactive than print?
what school are you attending?
thx and good luck with your studies.

No, that's not how the school did it (University of Kansas). The school starts with basic art and design principles, then moves forward from there into applications of them. The interactive design work I've done has been on my own time, it has paid for my cars and social life for the last four years.

When I was young I went to an art school a few days a week, later got out of that and became quite good with computers, so eventually I combined my two passions to make some money and have fun while doing it. I don't claim to be incredibly knowledgable in the field of design since I have very minimal training, but my work has been good enough apparently to keep me busy with more jobs. During high school I worked at a small graphic design company in addition to my own freelance work. This year at college I secured a job redesigning and maintaining the website for one of the departments of the University. I was also offered a job at an advertising agency in town.

I don't claim to be a professional, but after seeing some "professional's" work, I must not be half bad.

I'm looking forward to my formal training in the subject so that I can take my design skills even further.

[Graymalkin]

I've worn both hats in the industry, designer and pre-press. When I'm being paid to design my job is to design something graphical and make it look good to my client. My job is to know how to brand something and how to grab the attention of people looking at the design. I've also got to know what my customer finds aesthetically pleasing. When I'm being paid for pre-press work my job is to take the design I got from someone else and make it work on paper. In that capacity I have to know what my equipment can and can't do and how to make that equipment get the design out to the world.

When I'm designing something I've found it is very beneficial to know what is going to work on paper and what isn't. The client needs their expectations kept in line with what you can deliver. I know not to tell them they can have flashy gold text when I know the work will be printed in CMYK process. Several designers I know don't realize that and send comps to pre-press shops thinking they can and will use any and every type of ink ever made on their ad.

When I'm trying to make a design print quality I try my best to be true to the original layout of the design. I can't expect the designer to know how to properly kern text, I'm being paid to do that. However I'm not against telling the design they've got to go back to their client and break the bad news about the shiny gold text. They'll get yellow text with a gradient and inner glow.

[art_director]

thx for the post, gray.

you make good points that support the intent of this thread.

you've really had designers who expected to get gold without the benfit of a metalic ink?

it takes all types, huh?

[godzookie2k]

maybe I'm either anal or been doing the prepress thing so long, but even when I'm wearing the designer hat, I still pull out my bleeds, anally set my type, kerning in point percentages for everything. Frankly, I hate when prepress guys *touch* my type at all, its a big pet peeve of mine.


guess I'm just weird.

[JacobyO]

No, you're right. Prepress people shouldn't touch type. That should be done by the designer. That is something that is totally subjective and only the designer will know what was intended.

[art_director]

Originally posted by JacobyO:
No, you're right. Prepress people shouldn't touch type. That should be done by the designer. That is something that is totally subjective and only the designer will know what was intended.

in the agency world we pass the files along for internal production folk. we then get lasers to direct revisions. like it or not that's the way it's done. agencies don't like ad's fooking with type, they want us building brands.

when i worked at [insert multinational agency name here] they didn't even want us doing our own layouts. they wanted us to sit with production folk and have them push the elements around the page. being that it was a tv driven shop print was considered the red headed step child. that said they do have work in ca and the one show every year in both print and broadcast categories.