[analogue SPRINKLES]

My thoughts are no. Apple is holding out on purpose to kill flash video and flash ads which is a very good thing to me.

They are also pushing the advanced HTML 5 in Safari.

Flash caused too much CPU, battery use and crashes.

Flash/Air applications could be a sneaky way to get apps on the iPhone without the App store. Sounds good and all until people complain their iPhone battery drains in an hour when playing a game (flash) and tell their friends iPhones sucks.

Apple is getting into mobile advertising.

Here's hoping that in a year most video sites will use HTML 5 video by default and less website will use flash galleries and UI's. At that point most won't care flash is still missing from the iPad.

[nonhuman]

The Flash, the!

[turtle777]

Yes, Flash needs to die, HTML5 + h.264 needs to rule.

-t

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Can apple run into any monopoly issues by not allowing Flash to work on the iPx's?

[pooka]

I think it's quite shitty. I agree that flash is often abused and can be a pain in the ass. Thanks to wonderful tools like ClickToFlash, this is no longer an issue on the desktop. People can choose to invoke flash elements if and when they want. I can't imagine living without it. But why not just uninstall flash completely? Because it has some pretty f'n awesome uses. Some people disagree and would love to see it dead. I personally like having the choice. And I seriously doubt that Apple is doing this in order to push standards.

edit:
I don't think Flash should or could be implemented on the iPhone as a browser plugin.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Can apple run into any monopoly issues by not allowing Flash to work on the iPx's?

No, how ?

It doesn't fit the definition of a monopoly to NOT use a technology.

Thankfully, there is still some free market economy principles left, and one is that companies are free to offer whatever they want, and not offer what they don't want to offer.

-t

[JKT]

A quick demo of why it shouldn't appear on the iPhone OS, at least in its current implementation - there is only one page open in Safari, Adobe's own Flash showcase, yet it is using between 60 to 80% of both CPUs just for Flash:

YouTube - WhyFlashSucks's Channel

That's using the latest stable version of Flash Player (10.0.42.32). Unless Adobe has worked a small miracle with 10.1 for mobile devices, then I can't see Apple using it any time soon.

The small miracle also seems unlikely given the jerky performance exhibited in the 10.1 demos for Android and Palm Pré they have on their own blog (note to Adrian Ludwig - no it isn't "working beautifully" when something looks more like a slideshow than it does a film).

[Simon]

Flash cannot die a miserable death too early. HTML5 FTW.

I still have this daydream every once in a while that Apple will eventually just buy up Adobe and straighten them out big time. Of course that will never happen, but it sure would be damn nice.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Flash cannot die a miserable death too early. HTML5 FTW.

I still have this daydream every once in a while that Apple will eventually just buy up Adobe and straighten them out big time. Of course that will never happen, but it sure would be damn nice.

10 years ago maybe but I don't see anything that Adobe has that is worth it.

[dzp111]

I don't appreciate watching a video that raises my laptop's temperature by 20 degrees Celsius.

Looks like HTML 5's got something going right. It's also become platform preference on YouTube, which I haven't tried yet, but will soon.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

My thoughts are no. Apple is holding out on purpose to kill flash video and flash ads which is a very good thing to me.

Of course Apple is holding out. They're still reeling from Adobe's coup in internet video display. It was remarkable at just how quickly Adobe was able to kill off both embedded Quicktime and embedded Windows Media. And by "quickly" I mean several years.

What's important to note however, is that if HTML5 does become ubiquitous, it will be ubiquitous amongst irritating advertisements too. Ads don't use Flash because it's annoying. They use Flash because it's the standard and it's powerful. If HTML5 becomes the standard and is equally powerful, the annoying ads will be using HTML5.

Here's hoping that in a year most video sites will use HTML 5 video by default and less website will use flash galleries and UI's. At that point most won't care flash is still missing from the iPad.

Not a chance that quickly. Remember that HTML5 isn't even an approved standard yet. HTML5 will be more standardized by the end of this year, but don't expect it to suddenly be the dominant standard just a few months after that.

If HTML5 is ahead of Flash by 2015, I wouldn't be that surprised. If HTML5 is ahead of Flash by 2012, I'll be absolutely shocked.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

It doesn't fit the definition of a monopoly to NOT use a technology.

Thankfully, there is still some free market economy principles left, and one is that companies are free to offer whatever they want, and not offer what they don't want to offer.

That's actually not quite true. Microsoft cannot design Windows to specifically exclude Firefox without raising regulators' eyebrows. Similarly, Apple cannot design OS X to specifically exclude Firefox, or even Flash for that matter, without raising regulators' eyebrows.

If by 2012 the iPad and iPhone are several times faster in compute power, and if Flash is by far still the dominant standard, Apple will get lots of raised eyebrows if they are still refusing to allow Adobe any access.

[Simon]

Companies are free to offer what they want and not offer what they don't want...

...until they dominate a market. You're scrutinized in a different way once you're the MS of operating systems or the Apple of smartphones.

That said, I doubt Apple will ever get into regulatory problems with Flash. They have a good technological case against it (it's an inefficient piece of junk that runs like sh!t on anything but Windows) and they can always point to things like Zune HD players, Android phones, Win netbooks, and Win tablets as competitors to their products that offer Flash for customers who can't be without it.

But most importantly, this will never be an issue unless the iPad becomes the dominating device in the tablet/netbook market. Lets wait and see if it does first before we worry about Adobe, the regulatory authorities, and Apple Legal's strategy. For now Flash is the dominant player. Initiatives like those of YouTube and Vimeo with HTML5 are a welcome change and offer the free market an opportunity to set it right.

[EndlessMac]

It does seem like Apple is holding out on Flash on purpose to make a statement. With HTML5 it also seems like there is a legitimate alternative to Flash. Adobe really had become complacent about their Flash technology and didn't seem to have a huge motivator to fix the poor performance on Macs.

With the competition from HTML5 we might see Adobe make bigger faster improvements which helps us all but it seems like Apple is done with Flash and are just waiting for HTML5 to be the new standard. I welcome the end of Adobe's dominance in this area.

[Big Mac]

It's not coming as long as Jobs has anything to say about it, and people need to get over it.

[ajprice]

The longer it goes without Flash, the less likely it is to start using it. As said above, HTML5, H264 etc are taking over, and can do what flash can do.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Apple did the same thing when the iMac first came out. USB was on the market for a looong time but there was no devices that used it as PC manufacturers still included legacy ports next to the USB. As a result nobody bothered to make USB devices and consumers were ok using the old connections instead if it meant no fuss.

When Apple release the first iMac they made a point out of not including legacy ports so peripheral manufacturers would be forced to create USB devices if they wanted to sell it to the booming new iMac customer.

I'm pretty damn sure Steve is never going to allow Flash on these devices in order to bring HTML 5 to the mainstream.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Companies are free to offer what they want and not offer what they don't want...

...until they dominate a market. You're scrutinized in a different way once you're the MS of operating systems or the Apple of smartphones.

The iPhone is nowhere near the level of market penetration that Windows has.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The iPhone is nowhere near the level of market penetration that Windows has.

In the smartphone market they sure are.

They are also the leader in mobile browsing with something like %75. Companies will not ignore that their largest viewer base can't view flash.

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Flash cannot die a miserable death too early. HTML5 FTW.

I still have this daydream every once in a while that Apple will eventually just buy up Adobe and straighten them out big time. Of course that will never happen, but it sure would be damn nice.

Apple could buy Adobe using just cash and still have plenty in the bank.

[Simon]

Of course they could. But why would they? $20B just to suit Steve's ego will be too much even for Apple's board.

[Eug]

If they did bought Adobe it would raise a LOT of eyebrows too.

That said, it'd be interesting if they did, just to see what monkey reaction we'd get out of Ballmer.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Of course they could. But why would they? $20B just to suit Steve's ego will be too much even for Apple's board.

Originally Posted by Eug 

If they did do that it would raise a LOT of eyebrows too.

That said, it'd be interesting if they did, just to see what monkey reaction we got out of Ballmer.

That's right.

IF Apple bought Adobe, they would most certainly kill Flash.

This wouldn't go down w/o official government scrutiny.

-t

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Apple will not buy Adobe, they have nothing of value to Apple.

Adobe invented PDF's. Apples Preview handles them faster and better than Adobe apps.

Flash has been horrible for years on OSX compared to PCs. Crashes a lot and high CPU usage. Adobe doesn't care. The big reason the new safari has isolated plugins is because flash was causing the crashes 95% of the time.

Adobe took much too long to come up with the OSX compatible Photoshop even when Macs were their primary users in the creative market.

Apples comes up with Aperture. Adobe throws out Lightroom in no time.

All adobe apps don't follow apple interface guidelines, use Apple technologies such as 64bit or Open CL or even virtual memory. Their installers and updaters are a joke from Hell. Perhaps they are mad at Apple for Stealing the video market way from them overnight (which they deserved).

One very important point many of you Flash wanters seem to be forgetting is that flash is one evil marketing tool. It uses its own cookies that are a manual and difficult process to even view nevermind delete. I don't know ANYONE who even knows about flash cookies or that even a tiny banner hidden on any site can track them for years. I dare you to check what your cookies hold: http://www.macromedia.com/support/do...manager04.html

Judging by the comments from Steve over the last few days it seems I was right about Apple holding out just to kill flash for the better of mankind. He hates them as much as I do.

Why Flash is Doomed: Warnock is Afraid to Call Jobs � Fanboy.com

[iDaver]

Just for grins I've turned off Flash in my browser for the past couple of days to see what it's like. It's a drag! There are a lot of Flash advertisements which I don't miss, but also a lot of Flash content which I do miss.

[Eug]

^^^ Indeed. That's why I find when I surf on the iPhone, I sometimes still end up having to visit several of the same sites on my laptop or desktop later, because I can't access the stuff I want on the iPhone.

I'd be perfectly happy if Flash suddenly disappeared off the net, but like or not, Flash is an internet standard.

[The Final Dakar]

I think the easy answer here is "Not while Steve is alive"

[Eug]

You're probably right, but then again I thought iDVD wouldn't ever get support for 3rd party DVD burners.

Meanwhile even though Firewire is Apple's baby, iPods don't even support Firewire anymore.

[JKT]

Another reason why Flash is not a good thing. My work's site gets over 100,000 visits per month. Of those only 24% have the latest version of the Flash plug-in installed. 76% have a fully-exploitable version installed. There were 85 different versions of the plug-in used. Eighty-five! Given that Adobe's software is predicted to be the top malware target this year coming, I also wonder how much longer IT departments are going to permit its use?

However, I do want to know if Apple is going to bypass Adobe's own incompetence and deliver their own version of the Flash plug-in for the iPad. It would at least bring the security and performance issues under their own control. While you can justify its absence on the iPhone, it does have to be said that it makes a lot more sense for Flash to appear on the iPad. Mobile versions of websites that provide Flash alternatives are going to look awful on a larger screen.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by iDaver 

Just for grins I've turned off Flash in my browser for the past couple of days to see what it's like. It's a drag! There are a lot of Flash advertisements which I don't miss, but also a lot of Flash content which I do miss.

Which is exactly the point of why it has to die. There is no longer reason to use flash when there are plenty of alternatives that are better. These websites you mentioned are just lazy not because flash is so amazing and there is no other way to do it.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by JKT 

Another reason why Flash is not a good thing. My work's site gets over 100,000 visits per month. Of those only 24% have the latest version of the Flash plug-in installed.

We had the same problem at work except we get 4.5 million hits a month. Just getting simple interactive microsites or banners to work perfectly between versions of flash cost hundreds of thousands of extra dollars.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Which is exactly the point of why it has to die. There is no longer reason to use flash when there are plenty of alternatives that are better. These websites you mentioned are just lazy not because flash is so amazing and there is no other way to do it.

? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The sites use it because everyone else uses it. Nobody is forcing them to use Flash. They're using Flash because it is the de facto standard and they know how to use it.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The sites use it because everyone else uses it. Nobody is forcing them to use Flash. They're using Flash because it is the de facto standard and they know how to use it.

No, Adobe say it has 97% penetration. What they don't say is 97% of PC's. They don't count Mac's, Linux or mobile devices. They amount of traffic lost from iPod/iPhone visitors because of flash use is huge and companies will adapt to that quickly by offering alternatives.

It might be a "standard" on desktop/laptop PC's but again not because it deserves to be any longer as you can do the same stuff with CSS/JAVASCRIPT/HTML5/Jquery/etc and most of these work just fine on older browsers.

Crappy banners ads is what helped it become a standard. That is not a good thing for us consumers.

[iDaver]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Which is exactly the point of why it has to die. There is no longer reason to use flash when there are plenty of alternatives that are better.

I certainly don't mind if Flash dies a slow death and is replaced by better alternatives. Meanwhile, I don't want to use a browser that doesn't support Flash.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by iDaver 

I certainly don't mind if Flash dies a slow death and is replaced by better alternatives. Meanwhile, I don't want to use a browser that doesn't support Flash.

I feel the exact same way.

Similarly, I would never recommend an iPad to grandma for use in 2010 as a primary internet and email appliance type machine, but might in 2014, depending on the state of the iPad and the state of Flash and HTML5.

[boy8cookie]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I think the easy answer here is "Not while Steve is alive"

So, could happen at any moment?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by boy8cookie 

So, could happen at any moment?

That wasn't nice.

-t

[Eug]

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I lawl'd.

[boy8cookie]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That wasn't nice.

-t

Nice guys never win. Also, it was a joke.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

We had the same problem at work except we get 4.5 million hits a month. Just getting simple interactive microsites or banners to work perfectly between versions of flash cost hundreds of thousands of extra dollars.

You could have easily made that money back by exploiting security holes in the various versions of Flash and selling whole botnets to Romanian hackers...

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by boy8cookie 

Also, it was a joke.

Well, yeah, I figured.

-t

[Simon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That wasn't nice.

-t

Umm, you might want to recalibrate your

[turtle777]

Maybe my sarcasm meter doesn't work when joking about people's serious illnesses and death.

But I'll be or sure trying hard posting something tasteless when you share about a serious family health situation of yours.

-t

[Simon]

Which is why I'd never share anything personal on a board like this.

Anyway, I'm sure boy8cookie meant no harm when he posted the joke. IMHO there's no reason to make a big fuss about it.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Anyway, I'm sure boy8cookie meant no harm when he posted the joke. IMHO there's no reason to make a big fuss about it.

Did I make a big fuss ?

I just said it wasn't nice. That's all.

Then you and others accuse me of not getting the joke or the sarcasm. IMO, there is nothing "to get" when joking about someone's death.

-t

[Simon]

Well, whatever. I just find eight posts quite a bit of fuss over what is essentially no big deal.

[The Final Dakar]

Steve Jobs would roll over in his grave if he read this thread.
(Fuel to the fire; Allow me to try to add some)

[Simon]

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by iDaver 

I certainly don't mind if Flash dies a slow death and is replaced by better alternatives. Meanwhile, I don't want to use a browser that doesn't support Flash.

You're right man. Fight the power. It is better to have nothing at all than have a device that can do most things really well. Sad thing is your never going to get an iPhone/iPod/iPad then as I am sure flash is never coming to it.

And Eug is also right. It is best to tell grandma that she can't have that $500 iPad that does everything she needs and wants so badly because the Aliens Vs Predator movie website which uses flash won't work nor will all those cool banner ads or farmville. If she ever wants to watch a video that isn't on youtube concerning guys falling off their skateboard she is also out of luck.

"Sorry grandma, I can't in good conscience let you get that iPad as flash doesn't work. You're gonna have to get that $900 MacBook you can't afford nor know how to use".

Keeping in mind that Eug didn't want the first iPhone because "Edge Speed" was "unusable" and was waiting for the iPod touch which is hopefully just like the iPhone but more storage. It comes out, he doesn't like it cuz its not 64 gigs, go gets the 16 gig iPhone 3G which now has "usable data speeds" and then don't even even get a data plan for it. Then got one, canceled it after 2 weeks thinking he could live without. Then got it again seeing he couldn't. That's some clear thinking there man

Oh boy thank god you guys are NOT the normal customer or Apple would be out of businenss by now as even you don't know what you want.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Keeping in mind that Eug didn't want the first iPhone because "Edge Speed" was "unusable" and was waiting for the iPod touch which is hopefully just like the iPhone but more storage. It comes out, he doesn't like it cuz its not 64 gigs, go gets the 16 gig iPhone 3G which now has "usable data speeds" and then don't even even get a data plan for it. Then got one, canceled it after 2 weeks thinking he could live without. Then got it again seeing he couldn't. That's some clear thinking there man

Oh boy thank god you guys are NOT the normal customer or Apple would be out of businenss by now as even you don't know what you want.

-t

[Spheric Harlot]

(sorry, Eug, with all due respect)