[Veltliner]

Just recently looked at netbooks for the first time.

I'm glad Apple doesn't go this route: bad keyboards, bad screens, I mean these things aren't even good for web surfing as your eyes hurt from those cheap screen.

Apple got it right not to go cheap. I'd rather have pen and paper than a netbook.

The real fun starts with a good screen, a good keyboard, and a generally good feel. Anything below that would have made a scratch into the Apple logo.

[fisherKing]

i dunno, i wouldn't mind an apple-quality netbook, ie apple doing what apple does best.
of course, the legendary rumoured tablet would REALLY ideal...

[mduell]

Change "netbook" to "mp3 player" (and a few other trivial changes) and the post looks pretty silly.

There are plenty of really terrible netbooks, but there are also some good ones. The rumors sound like Apple's going to go with a tablet instead, which would be amusing; a worse screen (if the iPhone is anything to go by) and a worse keyboard.

[ghporter]

I'm with mduell on this. If Apple made one, it would likely be at least of the same quality as a MacBook-and while nobody thinks the current crop of MacBooks is exactly perfect, they don't have "bad keyboards, bad screens" or generally bad anything.

For what you pay, most netbooks are a fair deal-WAY portable and easy to carry around. But they are not really replacements for notebook computers. They're little surfing tools, nothing more.

[Wiskedjak]

Of course, if Apple really does ever release a netbook, it'll most likely be priced only a bit below the MacBook.

[OreoCookie]

In my experience, people treat netbooks simply differently: they have much lower expectations and they are more like cell phones, something `discardable.' Hence, bad screens, tiny keyboards and slow processors are tolerated. Plus, they really are very portable while being cheap. On the other hand, unlike the original netbook (which ran a custom Linux with custom UI), most of the machines run Windows XP, i. e. Tiny Windows XP. I never understood why people can tolerate such tiny screens.

Nowadays, there are all kinds of netbooks, also ones with larger screens or even better processors, but usually they're more expensive and (to me) fall out of the netbook category already.

[turtle777]

I'm not really sure if anything between my iPhone and my MBP 13" would make sense for me.
I'd have to see what Apple comes up with. The current netbooks don't cut it for me.

-t

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I'm not really sure if anything between my iPhone and my MBP 13" would make sense for me.
I'd have to see what Apple comes up with. The current netbooks don't cut it for me.

-t

Agreed. Apple's take on the tablet would have to be something completely unexpected for it to be something I'd want. My iPod Touch more than satisfies my portable computing needs.

[imitchellg5]

There are a few decent netbooks out there, but they're overlooked anyway because they are barely cheaper than a full-size notebook. I can see the appeal of one.

[Simon]

A few observations.

There's a lot more talk among geeks (take this board as an example) about netbooks than you see in real life.

The people I do know that have netbooks have them mainly because they wanted to spend as little as possible on a computer. IOW exactly not the people Apple tries to cater to. Those I know that put portability as no. 1 on their list and don't want to go dirt cheap usually end up getting something rather expensive like a MBA.

Apple already has an ultra-mobile surf station. It's called iPod touch or iPhone. It's much more mobile than any netbook and obviously it's way cooler. But it doesn't run OS X.

Like turtle said, it's going to be difficult to launch something that's inexpensive and good between the iPod touch and the MB.

Apple will have to include some extra to justify a price close to the MB's. History shows that such extras usually appeal much more to non-geeks than to geeks.

Whatever Apple does I predict it will get a thumbs down from most people here.

I'm not really moved by any of this because I have both an expensive portable and an iPhone so I'm definitely not in the market. The device I would consider is a $250 Linux netbook. But that aint comin' from Apple.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Simon 

There's a lot more talk among geeks (take this board as an example) about netbooks than you see in real life.

Say what you will about not seeing many netbooks in real life, they are the fastest growing segment in computer sales, with laptop growth decelerating.

Perhaps you aren't seeing them much in real life because they're so easily tucked away ...

[OreoCookie]

Netbooks have gotten very popular with students at my university. Mostly they're bought because they are cheap and portable. Many of them have a second `real' computer at home and can live without a lot of processing power.

However, the problem I see and that I hope Apple may solve when it releases its own `netbook' is the user interface: people run plain vanilla desktop apps on netbooks with tiny buttons and fonts. Some more expensive netbooks have a touchscreen, but again, what's the point if you use the touchscreen just as a replacement for the mouse (save for some rare, special apps)?

That's what made the iPhone the first commercially successful mass product with multi touch capabilities: people have thought about a good coherent user interface and there are plenty of apps available. IMO that's the recipe for a good Apple netbook.

[Simon]

So are you saying iPhone OS and the app store only for an Apple netbook?

[ghporter]

I think it's more an issue of "tweaked for the screen size provided" rather than iPhone OS... I recall the earliest discussions of netbooks here, and one big feature was that the whole thing was fully integrated, including having the OS's graphics appropriately sized and resolved for the little-bitty screen. Like the iPhone OS, but sized differently...

[Simon]

It's 2009 and we still don't have a fully resolution-independent UI in OS X. Do you think Apple has been withholding all of that for this netbook?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Simon 

So are you saying iPhone OS and the app store only for an Apple netbook?

Not necessarily the iPhone OS itself, but something similar: an optimized UI for that particular screen size and the types of uses Apple has envisioned as well as a mature development platform for developers. An app store could be important as well. But that's more of a detail in my opinion. The key is an optimized UI and providing a rich platform for developers.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Simon 

There's a lot more talk among geeks (take this board as an example) about netbooks than you see in real life.

what?

Netbooks (10.8MM) outsold portable Macs (1.75MM) by more than 6:1 in 2Q09. Heck, they even outsold iPods (10.2MM).

So the public, especially in markets like EMEA, is definitely talking about, and more importantly buying & using, netbooks.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

i dunno, i wouldn't mind an apple-quality netbook, ie apple doing what apple does best.
of course, the legendary rumoured tablet would REALLY ideal...

If Apple made a netbook, it would be magnificent. When I saw my first netbook, my brain scream "Duo"! A wireless Powerbook Duo!!!! Even the crappiest keyboard (on my Acer Aspire, for instance -- it was a gift) is better than a Rev.A Duo keyboard, but by Rev. F they got it right. 2.2 lbs. is the way to go.

The footprint of MacBook Air is too big, and it's too fragile. But it's the same idea, really.

[P]

Originally Posted by mduell 

what?

Netbooks (10.8MM) outsold portable Macs (1.75MM) by more than 6:1 in 2Q09. Heck, they even outsold iPods (10.2MM).

So the public, especially in markets like EMEA, is definitely talking about, and more importantly buying & using, netbooks.

Sales are fine, but the distinction that it's something other than a regular notebook isn't there - which is why return rates are so high: People are getting something other than what they expected. It's a cheap laptop, which is not what Intel et al really envisioned. It may make more sense once we get to Pine Trail, but for now it's a bargain-basement platform.

EMEA is a shitty market definition, btw. You have everything from a prosperous western Europe, where buying habits are very similar to the US and Internet access frankly better, to developing nations in Africa, where Internet access is often non-existent and a computer is a luxury item.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Netbooks (10.8MM) outsold portable Macs (1.75MM) by more than 6:1 in 2Q09. Heck, they even outsold iPods (10.2MM).

So what? PCs outsold Macs 9:1 and still Apple is the only company in the business making real money. Can you quote other irrelevant facts? How about last year's average RBI in the American League West?

Netbooks are a lot of talk. But in terms of potential profit for Apple they're rather irrelevant.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by finboy 

If Apple made a netbook, it would be magnificent.

Well it would have to be magnificent to sell.

Small, sexy, expensive. But that's not a netbook. That's a 10" MBA. And how many of those do you sell when the MB comes with better specs and costs less?

[lpkmckenna]

Maybe the Apple tablet is a netbook. Like some laptops, the keyboard folds all the way around back.

[olePigeon]

Between a laptop and a good smart phone, netbooks seem pointless to me.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Simon 

There's a lot more talk among geeks (take this board as an example) about netbooks than you see in real life.

Originally Posted by mduell 

Netbooks (10.8MM) outsold portable Macs (1.75MM) by more than 6:1 in 2Q09. Heck, they even outsold iPods (10.2MM).

Originally Posted by Simon 

So what?

Netbooks are a lot of talk.

I was pointing out that by the same "logic" Mac laptops or the iPod are just a niche that only geeks talk about and the public doesn't have them out and about in real life.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Between a laptop and a good smart phone, netbooks seem pointless to me.

QFT.

-t

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Between a laptop and a good smart phone, netbooks seem pointless to me.

The trouble is that the appeal of a netbook is price, and both of the things you mentioned cost more than a netbook does.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The trouble is that the appeal of a netbook is price, and both of the things you mentioned cost more than a netbook does.

Anybody still don't get why Apple isn't in the notebook market ?

For cheap sh!t, there's always some Chinese sweatshop providing undurable goods...

-t

[ghporter]

Ummm. Turtle, you know that all Macs are built in China, right? And it took a BBC exposé to get Apple to look into abuses at their iPod plant... Not that Apple is doing badly by Chinese workers, but you use a pretty broad brush in your post. Perhaps "there are much cheaper makers who don't pay as much attention to the welfare of their workers as Apple does" would be both more accurate and more appropriate.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Anybody still don't get why Apple isn't in the notebook market ?

For cheap sh!t, there's always some Chinese sweatshop providing undurable goods...

-t

Exactly. Apple can't possibly make a netbook. At best, they can make an ultra-small laptop. Unfortunately, *laptops* get more expensive as they get smaller. So, at best, Apple will only ever make a smaller (and possibly more expensive) MacBook Air.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Ummm. Turtle, you know that all Macs are built in China, right? And it took a BBC exposé to get Apple to look into abuses at their iPod plant... Not that Apple is doing badly by Chinese workers, but you use a pretty broad brush in your post. Perhaps "there are much cheaper makers who don't pay as much attention to the welfare of their workers as Apple does" would be both more accurate and more appropriate.

MADE in China doesn't make the negative difference/ The labor is not the problem.

Designed / ripped off in China, in conjunction with lowest quality parts is where the sh!t comes from.

-t

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mduell 

I was pointing out that by the same "logic" Mac laptops or the iPod are just a niche that only geeks talk about and the public doesn't have them out and about in real life.

Umm, what??? iPods a niche? Dude, are you delusional?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The trouble is that the appeal of a netbook is price, and both of the things you mentioned cost more than a netbook does.

Smartphones are obviously more expensive. But let's take the iPod touch which is an excellent ultra-portable web/mail computer. If you consider an iPod touch at $199 it's going to be very difficult for anybody to make a much cheaper netbook. And least of all Apple.

On the other end of the price bracket it's easy to make a netbook that's cheaper than a MB, but how cheap does Apple want to make it? And how much is Apple interested in having it compete with their iPod touch/iPhone? I'm guessing many here would rather have OS X and Mac apps than iPhone OS and the app store only on a netbook. I imagine Apple would want to prevent that kind of competition between a MB lite and the iPod touch at all cost.

But otherwise I agree with your point. The appeal of the netbook is mainly it's price. This idea of a cheap disposable computer you buy just for fun. Play around with it. And when it no longer does what you want you toss it out and buy a new one. There's definitely a demand for that. The question is who the supplier is. That market is all about high sales numbers and low margins. It's the very opposite of what Apple usually does. Even on the Mac mini Apple was and still is still making very decent profit. I simply cannot imagine they'd sell $300 netbooks that make them maybe $25 profit at most. It's simply not the way they do business.

They could absolutely build a netbook that demonstrates what an excellent ultra-portable notebook should be like. Real KB, decent screen, Gigabit instead of this 100Mbps nonsense, n instead of g wireless, MDP instead of VGA, etc... But at the end of the day you'd be looking at a $700 MB lite. Definitely an interesting product. But now who do you pitch it to? It's not a product for those people you were talking about. Way too expensive. But OTOH it definitely would take sales from other portable Macs that drive much more profit. In addition, it would distract from Apple's favorite portable (MBA) and their favorite ultra-portable (iPod touch).

I think it's very difficult to come up with a realistic feature/spec set that makes Apple money, doesn't dilute their lineup and still sells to people looking for a netbook. That's a very tough one. And I haven't seen anybody here give an example that would do all of that.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Exactly. Apple can't possibly make a netbook. At best, they can make an ultra-small laptop. Unfortunately, *laptops* get more expensive as they get smaller. So, at best, Apple will only ever make a smaller (and possibly more expensive) MacBook Air.

This. Apple's game is expensive hardware. I doubt they'll ever release a full-featured compact laptop in the current netbook price range.

That's the beauty of a netbook, at least for me. It's an incredibly small form factor at a very affordable price. Sure, I could get a 15" laptop for $400 (which is still $100 more than the Aspire One I'm using right now), but if I'm going to get a full-size laptop, I might as well get one that doesn't suck. I flat-out love my Aspire One. It's small, it gets like six hours on its 6-cell battery, and it does everything I need or want it to do. The only thing I can't do on this laptop that I could do on my XPS M1330 is play 3D games.

People are still expecting netbooks to be exactly like regular notebook computers in a compact design, when in reality they are more or less small Internet devices with the added advantage of being able to run normal Windows apps like Microsoft Office (which actual "internet devices" can't do, since they run proprietary OSes). That's also why I don't see an iPhone OS-based netbook from Apple being particularly successful - the biggest benefit to netbooks is that you can run your regular software on them. If Apple released a netbook that could only run the limited apps it permitted on the platform, it just wouldn't be as useful as something running OS X straight up.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Ummm. Turtle, you know that all Macs are built in China, right?

I think the point Turtle was trying to make is that the appeal of netbooks has a lot to do with them being $200 disposable low-end gadgets. And that that's exactly the opposite of the type of computer Apple usually excels at. I think he's alluding to the fact that just because some Chinese sweatshop can assemble and sell a lot of netbooks, doesn't necessarily mean Apple can too and still make a good profit.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Exactly. Apple can't possibly make a netbook. At best, they can make an ultra-small laptop. Unfortunately, *laptops* get more expensive as they get smaller. So, at best, Apple will only ever make a smaller (and possibly more expensive) MacBook Air.

Just for the sake of the argument (so far in this thread I've argued mainly against the Apple netbook) let me offer an opposing view here. While they can't make a $300 netbook, they most definitely can make a Mac that's cheaper and smaller than a MB.

They could take a regular MB keyboard, trim the bezel, use a 10" screen, remove the optical, etc. and end up with a MB lite that's a lot smaller and lighter than the current MB. They could equip it with 2 GB of RAM and a small cheap disk. That's definitely a computer they could sell next to the MB and still make a profit. And it's by no means an expensive MBA.

The problem with that idea is not the product. It's how Apple can sell it beside a MB and an iPod touch and still make good profits with all three.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Umm, what??? iPods a niche? Dude, are you delusional?

Better try reading that one again.

[Simon]

Not really, it's the "by the same logic" part that's wacko.

[OreoCookie]

People, let's keep it civil and talk about netbooks, tablets, technology and whatnot instead of each other's logical fallacies.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

MADE in China doesn't make the negative difference/ The labor is not the problem.

Designed / ripped off in China, in conjunction with lowest quality parts is where the sh!t comes from.

-t

Originally Posted by Simon 

I think the point Turtle was trying to make is that the appeal of netbooks has a lot to do with them being $200 disposable low-end gadgets. And that that's exactly the opposite of the type of computer Apple usually excels at. I think he's alluding to the fact that just because some Chinese sweatshop can assemble and sell a lot of netbooks, doesn't necessarily mean Apple can too and still make a good profit.

Points taken. Turtle's earlier post didn't come across the way his above quoted one does-which makes a big difference.

I agree that exceptionally cheap (as opposed to simply inexpensive) netbooks produced in massive quantities can sell at really low prices, and that Apple just doesn't do things that way. My thought was that if Apple did choose to make an ultra-small notebook computer to compete with the netbook form factor, it would most likely be a MUCH better machine, though much more expensive too.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

My thought was that if Apple did choose to make an ultra-small notebook computer to compete with the netbook form factor, it would most likely be a MUCH better machine, though much more expensive too.

What I'm curious to know is how it could be that much better than a netbook.

The form factor is so small that you can't have the latest and greatest technology. Putting a dual-core 2.x GHz Intel in one of these would cause some major heat issues (not to mention sucko battery life on the 3-cell batts that are standard in many netbooks). A discrete GPU is entirely out of the question. As far as the display goes, 11" is the absolute maximum without getting into no-longer-compact territory, and I doubt the masses (even Apple cultists) are going to want something much bigger than 1366x768 on a screen that small (FWIW, Dell's Mini 10 is now available in this resolution). The form factor is more or less too small for an optical drive, although I suppose it MIGHT be possible to put a slim drive in one of these (maybe).

There's not much Apple could add to one of these to make it "MUCH better" than current-generation netbooks, save for an 802.11n adapter (although I'd argue that many people are still using 802.11g at home and work) and maybe a mini DisplayPort (although I much prefer a standard VGA output that doesn't require me to spend $30 on a stupid adapter).

If Apple made an ultra-small notebook, they'd be trying to compete with $1,000+ subnotebooks from companies like Sony and Lenovo, not $250 netbooks from Asus, Acer, Dell, and HP.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

If Apple made an ultra-small notebook, they'd be trying to compete with $1,000+ subnotebooks from companies like Sony and Lenovo, not $250 netbooks from Asus, Acer, Dell, and HP.

It sounds like you're asking Apple to make a 11" MBA. Personally I find that an interesting option. And I think an 11" MBA could possibly be a much more interesting product than today's 13" MBA.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by mduell 

what?

Netbooks (10.8MM) outsold portable Macs (1.75MM) by more than 6:1 in 2Q09. Heck, they even outsold iPods (10.2MM).

So the public, especially in markets like EMEA, is definitely talking about, and more importantly buying & using, netbooks.

Originally Posted by Simon 

So what? PCs outsold Macs 9:1 and still Apple is the only company in the business making real money. Can you quote other irrelevant facts? How about last year's average RBI in the American League West?

Netbooks are a lot of talk. But in terms of potential profit for Apple they're rather irrelevant.

Originally Posted by P 

Sales are fine, but the distinction that it's something other than a regular notebook isn't there - which is why return rates are so high: People are getting something other than what they expected. It's a cheap laptop, which is not what Intel et al really envisioned. It may make more sense once we get to Pine Trail, but for now it's a bargain-basement platform.

EMEA is a shitty market definition, btw. You have everything from a prosperous western Europe, where buying habits are very similar to the US and Internet access frankly better, to developing nations in Africa, where Internet access is often non-existent and a computer is a luxury item.

Good points, Simon and P.

Apple goes the quality route and doesn't lower itself to cheap products, where the profit margin is tiny.

Apple's strongest side is to create a great to use product, that is intelligently designed. And that is looking so good some call it sexy.

Nothing of this fits those crappy netbooks. And, as Oreocookie noticed, when a netbook isn't crappy, it's almost as expensive as a laptop.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Change "netbook" to "mp3 player" (and a few other trivial changes) and the post looks pretty silly.

There are plenty of really terrible netbooks, but there are also some good ones. The rumors sound like Apple's going to go with a tablet instead, which would be amusing; a worse screen (if the iPhone is anything to go by) and a worse keyboard.

So you want to change my post to make it silly?

Now your post looks pretty silly. Without changes.

[Veltliner]

Will tablets be Apple's netbook?

I don't think so.

The prices will start at 800$, that's beyond netbook pricing.

And I'm sure when they come out they will have some extra features that will make them premium - again.

Handwriting recognition software. Drawing. All those things you can't do with a regular laptop.

[Veltliner]

I could imagine a smaller MacBook Air. With solid state drives only. Now THAT could be interesting for those who want a smaller laptop, but don't like netbooks.

I'd say it depends how small a keyboard you want. That's pretty much the limit for usability. And, as turtle said, if you want to go much smaller, what's the point if you already have a smart phone.

PS: If you could plug in a keyboard into a iPod Touch or an iPhone. And aren't there keyboards that are collapsable?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

Apple goes the quality route and doesn't lower itself to cheap products, where the profit margin is tiny.
...
Apple's strongest side is to create a great to use product, that is intelligently designed.

I agree with that. But it's still interesting to ask yourself if within that bracket Apple can develop a new ultra-portable device.

Consider a smaller even more compact MBA. A quality device, with a real KB, decent screen res, light weight, that comes with SL and iLife/iWork. That's a high quality package that can drive profit. Obviously it won't be cheap (MBA vs. MB), but it would be a very decent ultra-mobile solution w/o pushing those folks towards the touch and the iPhone OS/app store.

[shdwghst457]

i still think everyone who thinks that Apple will make a tablet, yet thinks it will only be $800, is totally nuts. the macbook air IS a netbook, for most intents and purposes, it's a thin ultra portable. but it was still $3000 when it came out! Apple's not in the business to make something innovative and new, and sell it for less than any of their current OS X-running machines (Apple TV not included =] ) If there really is going to be a tablet i expect the price to be near a 15 inch macbook pro at LEAST. even if it severely price drops down the road like the Air did.

[P]

Apple can certainly make a cheaper laptop - say an 11" screen and one of those cache-starved Celerons paired with an Intel integrated GPU - but that won't be a netbook. Still, a $700 MB Lite wouldn't hurt.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

Instead of netbooks, Apple will go for tablets.

Although personally I'm not at all interested in a tablet I do think a multi-touch tablet is more likely to become an actual Apple product than a netbook.

I can't imagine that Apple would sell tablets with shitty screens.

A touchscreen doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

I only know that my iPhone has an excellent multi-touch screen. If they can scale that up they're fine.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by shdwghst457 

i still think everyone who thinks that Apple will make a tablet, yet thinks it will only be $800, is totally nuts. the macbook air IS a netbook, for most intents and purposes, it's a thin ultra portable. but it was still $3000 when it came out! Apple's not in the business to make something innovative and new, and sell it for less than any of their current OS X-running machines (Apple TV not included =] ) If there really is going to be a tablet i expect the price to be near a 15 inch macbook pro at LEAST. even if it severely price drops down the road like the Air did.

A defining feature of a netbook is that they're cheap. They're called netbooks because about all they're capable of doing is accessing the 'Net. The MacBook Air is not even *close* to being a netbook; if it can run Photoshop, it's not a netbook.