[AdvocateUK]

Hi everyone.

Ever since I briefly had the use of an Apple iBook I have fallen in love with Macs and OS X (my first thought of the OS was "my god a USABLE unix!") and when it had to go I vowed that one day I would own a PowerMac.

Well, I have discussed this with my missus and she has (unbelievably) agreed to let me buy one.

My first instinct was to go with the G5 1.6 as I thought that was all I could afford. I now find that I can push the boat out a bit and (just) stretch to a 1.8

However, I've been told on another forum that " I would avoid any single processor G5 like the plague. They are the worst value in the Mac lineup right now. OSX does such a agreat job at using 2 processors, so you may want to look at the dual 1.25 G4. That is the sweet spot right now at $1600US. The only G5 worth buying is the dual 2gig. The 1.6 and 1.8 (especially the 1.6) are horribly overpriced. The G5 is also very limited in it's expandability, with only 1 optical bay and 2 hd bays. "

So I began to look at DP G4's from CancomUK (refurbished for that extra added value )

After browsing this forum however the general concensus is that the single cpu G5 is more than worth the money.

Needless to say I'm confused.

The main uses for the Mac will be web browsing, DV editing/burning to dvd, playing the odd game, and studying (eg writing essays in word).

Do you have any advice for me?

G4 or G5?

Thank you in advance for this, sorry the post is long.

Alistair

PS On another note, anyone know if I could flash the bios in my Radeon9700Pro (for pc) to make it work in the powermac?

[crouchingtiger]

We covered many of these issues in this thread .

The general consensus was that if you could find a great deal on a dual-G4 that was the way to go. I would hardly call $1600 the "sweet spot", however -- I think that would be more like $1300-$1400.

For your intended purposes, both machines would work quite fine -- I think the G5s would be somewhat better at the DV stuff and gaming.
Hope this helps!

[AssassyN]

I'd honestly say that unless you can plunge for the Dual G5, get the Dual G4. That's what I did, got a loaded out Dual 1.25Ghz G4 PowerMac, and I'm absolutely thrilled. It's PLENTY fast for all the apps. you stated and I'm sure it'll impress...plus, their resell value stays high so when the next rev. of G5's come out, you can probably sell it and grab a used Dual G5 for a small upgrade cost. Best of luck!

[AdvocateUK]

Thank you for your replies. I should add that whatever I buy I've had to promise that it will last me 5 (yes FIVE) years, although in 3 years time I MAY be able to swing an upgrade.

Although I'm being told that duallie G4's will rock my kazbah something inside keeps saying "the G5 will last longer".....ohhhhhh I hate dilemnas :s

[roders]

Umm tricky one, this is just my opinion (Mr Blindingly obvious strikes again) but it all depends on what your going to use your computer for.
If you were planning on doing a lot of rendering on a budget (say in 3D or DV) then I'd consider a Dual G4, or if budget is not an issue definitely a Dual G5.
But for the things your suggesting I'd go with the G5 1.8 (as I have done) and I had exactly the same conundrum.
OSX will (I think) run about the same speed on both machines, or comparable at least.
All things that use one processor will run as well as on the Dual G4 1.42 on the G5 (if not better) even when multitasking (unless you doing a lot of heavy duty jobs such as rendering as I mentioned before, and still want/require a responsive OS).
Even though it looks like the single G5's look like they might not be upgradeable to duals in the future, I think single CPU upgrades will be available, and the G5's Mobo actually has the Bandwidth to take advantage of them, no G4 around at the moment has (i.e for a CPU faster than 1.42, let alone two of them) so along with faster Bus/AGP/Ram/PCI etc should keep the G5 current and viable to upgrade for longer I think.
So single CPU tasks, i.e. things you can/will only be doing one at a time will be faster, maybe a lot faster than the dual G4 1.42, where as low level multitasking (web browsing, using Word, and say listening to iTunes) would be absolutely fine on the G5 (i.e would definitely not need the power of a dual).
All this is just a "guesstimate" on my part though!
P.S For what you want to do with your Mac, do you really need a machine as powerful as either of these?
There are other Mac's available which can do the jobs you want them too fine, for less cash.
Also remember these machines together with OSX will need a fair sized amount of Ram to show there true potential, which will cost more money.
Overall I don't think you can go wrong worth either machine.
If your looking to the future get a G5, if you looking to save money now, get a Dual G4.

[AssassyN]

Hmm, in today's digital age, nothing you currently purchase will last your 5 years most likely...hardly 3.

I still say that buying a starving G5 will not impress as much because it needs lots of RAM and a nice graphics card to truly show it's power...by saving, you can max out your G4 and it'll work plenty fast for your needs.

[AdvocateUK]

Once again thank you for your informative and unbiased views I do appreciate it.

The machine I am currently running (a PC) has the following specs.

P4 3ghz (at 3.2)
1 gig Corsair memory (PC3200 I think)
Radeon 9700 Pro
1 x SATA 80gig HDD
1 x ATA 80gig HDD

I was kinda hoping that I could take the 1gig memory, Radeon 9700 Pro (with a bios flash) and the SATA 80gig HDD and put them into the G5 thus giving me an instant upgrade. (I have a spare 256meg stick of memory to put it and an old gfx card so the PC could still be used for games for the kids )


Does this sound feasible?

[AssassyN]

Well first off, you won't be flashing that 9700 into the Mac, and thus your only upgrades are the measly 9600, or shell out the $300+ for the 9800 Pro.

The RAM, as long as it's PC3200, would work in the G5, as would the SATA drive.

[AdvocateUK]

While I'm on the subject of using some of my PC hardware

I also have in the pc a Sony DVD rewriter that writes both DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW. If I ordered the G5 with the standard DVD/CDRW would I be able to use the Sony drive in it and also would a reinstall of OSX install the dvd burning app?

Trying to save money

[roders]

I was kinda hoping that I could take the 1gig memory, Radeon 9700 Pro (with a bios flash) and the SATA 80gig HDD and put them into the G5 thus giving me an instant upgrade. (I have a spare 256meg stick of memory to put it and an old gfx card so the PC could still be used for games for the kids ) Does this sound feasible? [/B]

The Ram and HD should go in fine (they might not/won't work quite so easily in a G4), not sure about the Bios flash for the Radeon though, although a vid card upgrade on a CTO G5 1.8 to the Rad9600Pro is only �30.

[roders]

Originally posted by AdvocateUK:
While I'm on the subject of using some of my PC hardware

I also have in the pc a Sony DVD rewriter that writes both DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW. If I ordered the G5 with the standard DVD/CDRW would I be able to use the Sony drive in it and also would a reinstall of OSX install the dvd burning app?

Trying to save money

I don't think anyone can answer this definitely as per the G5 at the moment, all I can say is maybe
As for sticking one in a G4, it's more likely; maybe

[AdvocateUK]

I'm sure I read somewhere about the Bios flash....never mind...

I'd be inclined to go with the 9600 Pro as the 9800 is a bit pricey for my liking.

Do you think the Sony DVD writer would work?

[idyll]

I was in the same position as you and opted for a 1.6 G5. I couldn't be happier. Before using this machine I had a dual 867 G4 and a 12" PowerBook but wasn't satisfied with their performance overall. Everything is extremely snappy in OS X on this G5 and things will only get better from here.

Here's some advice:
Buy a G4 for now.
Buy a G5 for the future.

The only thing the 1.6 G5 has in common with a G4 are the regular PCI slots.

Panther will increase the performance of a G5 by as much as 40%. Sooner or later we will see applications taking advantage of the G5s.

Photoshop tests show that a 1.6 G5 is about on par with a dual 1.42 G4 (and lets not forget that things will only get better from here on). For what you're going to be doing a G5 will do much better - gaming and DV editing will be faster on a G5. Most games can only take advantage of one processor.

The choice is up to you.

[AssassyN]

Originally posted by idyll:


The only thing the 1.6 G5 has in common with a G4 are the regular PCI slots.

And the slower RAM, clocked at PC2700 instead of PC3200...plus, there's only 4 RAM slots instead of 8.

[AdvocateUK]

Originally posted by roders:
I don't think anyone can answer this definitely as per the G5 at the moment, all I can say is maybe
As for sticking one in a G4, it's more likely maybe

Hmmm I'd be loathe to drop the dvd-r if it meant I didn't have the dvd burning app to play with

[idyll]

Originally posted by AssassyN:
And the slower RAM, clocked at PC2700 instead of PC3200...plus, there's only 4 RAM slots instead of 8.

The G4 can't take advantage of the RAM, whereas the G5 can . But you're right.

[AdvocateUK]

I'm currently browsing the Apple store switching between the 1.6 G5, 1.8 G5, and the DP G4.....this is agonising :s

On top of that the build time is 9-11 days, I take it they mean working days right?

Then I'm thinking "ooh I should really get the applecare but I don't want to add to the price, oh and what about .Mac"

Arrrgh I hate spending this amount of money!!

[AssassyN]

In all honestly, I would NOT buy from Apple Store...buy from a reseller and pay NO sales tax...sales tax can get huge on big purchases.

And AppleCare for desktops is really not necessary in most cases...it's worth it for a laptop, but I'd wait out the 1st year before buying it for your tower. .Mac tends to be slow and down a lot of the time, and many say it's a waste of cash...your call though.

If your order is custom built in any way, expect at least a 2 week wait before it shipping out, unless of course you order from a reseller that has them already in stock.

[AdvocateUK]

Sales Tax?? Do you mean VAT?

I'd still pay VAT even from a reseller, though in all honesty I only know of one UK Mac reseller and that is CancomUK...and they only have the one spec 1.8 G5 in stock (ie can't drop stuff like the 56k modem)

.....oh I'm just gonna take the plunge soon.

[AssassyN]

Ahh...forgot your in the UK.

Hmm...well the choice is yours man, I just have one last bit of advice: don't get in over your head. Getting into debt over a computer is only fun until the bills start piling up, then you'll begin to regret it fast.

[crouchingtiger]

to check if that Sony DVD writer will work, I'd suggest heading over to www.xlr8yourmac.com and checking their "Drive Compatibility Database". I'd do it myself but I'm a little bit short on time at the moment...

hope this helps!

p.s. if you're buying this machine to use for the next 3-5 years, DEFINITELY go G5. As video editing, etc. become more popular, the true test of the performance of the machine will become less the sheer clock speed (which is comparable on a dual G4) and more on the bandwith (which the G5 crushes the G4 on).

[AdvocateUK]

Yeah point taken....

TBH this purchase IS going on the credit card...I've just sold one x86 pc for �500 so that will be going towards it and I may well end up selling the other (should hopefully get �700 - �800 for that) so the Mac may well turn out to be mostly funded by selling other gear.

I'm sick of the upgrade ratrace of PC's and want a well specced computer that will be supported (by Apple as well as softco's) for at least 2-3 years without feeling pressured to constantly change my CPU/motherboard/graphics card etc.

[AdvocateUK]

Originally posted by crouchingtiger:
to check if that Sony DVD writer will work, I'd suggest heading over to www.xlr8yourmac.com and checking their "Drive Compatibility Database". I'd do it myself but I'm a little bit short on time at the moment...

hope this helps!

p.s. if you're buying this machine to use for the next 3-5 years, DEFINITELY go G5. As video editing, etc. become more popular, the true test of the performance of the machine will become less the sheer clock speed (which is comparable on a dual G4) and more on the bandwith (which the G5 crushes the G4 on).

Thanks for the info, unfortunately nothing is listed

[Commodus]

In your position, I'd see if I could stretch and get a 1.8 GHz G5. One reason: floating-point math.

You mentioned occasional gaming. Seeing as how your x86 box is a 3 GHz Pentium 4 with a Radeon 9700 Pro, you're obviously interested in games running well when you do use them. The G5 is much, much better suited to that than the G4 because it has double the floating-point math units as well as dramatically higher system bandwidth.

You'd have to get a video card from Apple (the 9600 or 9800 Pro), but I think it would be worth the extra expenditure.

[crouchingtiger]

doh, I thought I saw a few Sony drives in that database but maybe not the right models...

Anyway, let me just weigh in one more time and suggest stretching even more to the dual 2.0GHz machine.

This is the only one of the lot that is a significant upgrade in computational power from your 3 GHz Pentium machine. It should certainly hold up a lot better than either single-CPU machine would.

It's tough, but at least you are saving on peripheral costs by moving stuff over from the PC, and also by offsetting the cost from the selling of said PCs...

That being said, you'd have to wait a few more weeks to get the dual machine and it doesn't sound like you are necessarily ready to do that.

[AdvocateUK]

I'd probably have to wait to upgrade the vid card, I'm balking at the �1849 that I'll be paying for the 1.8 lol

How are games releases coming for the Mac nowadays?

[AdvocateUK]

Originally posted by crouchingtiger:
doh, I thought I saw a few Sony drives in that database but maybe not the right models...

Anyway, let me just weigh in one more time and suggest stretching even more to the dual 2.0GHz machine.

This is the only one of the lot that is a significant upgrade in computational power from your 3 GHz Pentium machine. It should certainly hold up a lot better than either single-CPU machine would.

It's tough, but at least you are saving on peripheral costs by moving stuff over from the PC, and also by offsetting the cost from the selling of said PCs...

That being said, you'd have to wait a few more weeks to get the dual machine and it doesn't sound like you are necessarily ready to do that.

There's no way I would survive until the delivery of the machine once I'd told my missus the price :s

As you all are no doubt aware I'm finding spending this much money all in one go quite traumatising....it's taken me over an hour to get to the final ordering screen on the cancomuk website (the one where they want my card number) and I'm still umming and ahhing even now.

The order that has been thus far processed is for the default 1.8Ghz G5 configuration and is available on a "next working day" delivery.

Thank you all very much for your help tonight, I do appreciate it and look forward to getting to know you all a bit better over the coming (Mac owning) months.

Alistair

PS I bet I end up sleeping on this and ordering tomorrow

PPS AssassyN what's that thread about you selling something and buying a G5? AAre you known to be an upgrade addict?

[zigzag]

I think idyll's post spelled it out well.

The 1.8 has one distinct advantage over the 1.6: 8 RAM slots instead of 4. Since RAM has to be installed in pairs, if you want to really beef up the RAM on the 1.6, you might have to replace the stock modules (unless you specify bigger ones from Apple, not the most economical choice). On the 1.8, on the other hand, you have 6 open slots to work with. As cheap as RAM is, this isn't a deal-breaker, but it's something to consider.

I think it was Eug Wanker who did a nice analysis showing that by the time you equip them with a useful amount of RAM and storage, the 1.8 is only $100-150 more than the 1.6.

You can decide to get Apple Care up to a year after you buy the machine, so I wouldn't worry about it. I think it might give you priority or on-site service during the first year but I'm not sure.

.Mac is worthwhile IMO, but it all depends on what you like to do. In addition to e-mail, I like the synchronizing feature, but since you will only have one machine, that doesn't do much for you. I also like the easy-to-use web-page features that are nicely integrated with iPhoto and the desktop. I also use iDisk on occasion to exchange large files with people and to link to images in MacNN posts. I've also used some of the royalty-free music in video projects. Some people use .Mac a lot, others don't.

You can always get .Mac later. The system has gone down a few times over the course of a year but I don't think it's a big deal and it'll probably become more reliable with time.

Oh yeah - at least one place is offering .Mac subscriptions at a $20 discount:

http://www.megamacs.com/v1/index.php...&criteria=.mac

Welcome to Macintosh, you'll love it.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by AdvocateUK:
I'd probably have to wait to upgrade the vid card, I'm balking at the �1849 that I'll be paying for the 1.8 lol

How are games releases coming for the Mac nowadays?

Usually takes about 3-6 months (with some notable exceptions like War3... becoming more common I think)...

Don't count on getting less-than-super-duper-popular games though (except Halflife, bastards)... I'd definitely keep the PC around for gaming if you can (unless you game very infrequently).

Having said that, there are tons of great games (SOF2,America's Army, Ghost Recon, and MOHAA/RTCW have been occupying my gaming time); when I can pry myself away from Soul Calibur 2 that is

[idyll]

In your position I believe that you made the right choice. The 1.8 G5 is quite a performer and you'll always know that you have the latest and greatest (well.. almost). I know I do. The G5 is the future.

I myself have a 2.4GHz Pentium 4 PC and I find that my 1.6 G5 is just as fast and at times even faster than my PC in many applications (such as Photoshop) that I use daily. Once we all get Panther in our hands things will be looking pretty good on the Mac side.

[Centris650]

I'm just going to weigh in on the .Mac issue. It's worth it for me. My wife LOVES using iPhoto's homepage ability to take our digital photos and put them on the web in minutes. I like the backup ability as well as iSync. Personally I like .Mac but maybe you could use the windows 30 day trail while waiting for your mac?

[willab]

Another vote for the 1.8. I am looking at upgrading also and originally thought the dual G4 was the way to go because of price, but then looked at mpeg2 encoding times and found out that the 1.6 is faster than a dual 1.42. So, I decided on the 1.6, but decided I wanted the better motherboard with 8 RAM slots, and the ability to say that I have middle system instead of the low-end.

[MindFad]

1.8 G5 for sure. Since you can swing either a 1.6, 1.8, or dual G4, I'm basing this suggestion on the fact that you will need this machine for 3 years, maybe 5. The G5 is definitely going to last you way longer than a dual G4, I think, no matter what kinds of apps you use.

[Link]

Originally posted by AssassyN:
Hmm, in today's digital age, nothing you currently purchase will last your 5 years most likely...hardly 3.

I dunno where you get that but I bought my g4 2 years ago and it still works great, it's actually faster then the day I got it since several things happened:

1. 10.1 huge speed boost
2. 10.2 even bigger speed boost
3. many multiple processor apps
4. QE and a few other goodise.

Anyway, needless to say I'm prepared to keep my g4 for another 2 years, perhaps even more. I'm planning on getting a powerbook at the end of the year (I can only hope), and that's going to be a 'new computer' for me.

It won't replace my g4, however. While my mom wants a computer for herself, she'll be getting her own 23" cinema HD and most likely a g5

But anyway, back to the point: If you are even a rather heavy user, your hardware can last you a while, as long as the machine works.

In my case, before I got the g4, I was using a 5 year old toshiba laptop, a whooping 75mhz, and with external monitor + keyboard at times, and DSL to make it a little less painful.

Before that I had a P3 750 but the processor burned out, and yeah, it didn't last too long :shrug: you get the idea.

[AdvocateUK]

Wow I'm overwhelmed by the number of posts wanting to help. Thank you

I think I have just about settled on a 1.8 G5. I think I need to stop worrying about how much it is and just order the damn thing

Thanks once again everyone

[roders]

I know Computer warehouse (cwonline.co.uk) have standard spec G5 1.8 and 1.6's in stock, you also get a voucher for �75 to spend on OSX software, a free NetBarrier product/software, and a free email acount at the moment, and if you know ANYONE with a student ID/NUS card go down (with them) & get one today for �1695!
P.S they priced matched something for me once, so you could try that, and I got a free mouse with a powerbook too, so you could/should try for some extra goodies, just say you were going to buy from Cancom! (Cancom have a branch in Kensigton/West London, and CW are in Brenford West London, so give it a go!)

[roders]

Originally posted by AdvocateUK:
Wow I'm overwhelmed by the number of posts wanting to help. Thank you Thanks once again everyone

Welcome to the MAC PACK!
Most if not all of us are as friendly as our Macs are, maybe there a positive influence on us!

[AdvocateUK]

After all the umming and ahhing last night I did indeed decide to sleep on it. After visiting a local(ish) Mac dealer and seeing the 1.8 G5 in action I've decided that..........I'm going to get a refurb G4 DP.....I can pick one of these up at cancom for just over �1050 and with the �800 I'm saving I'll keep my eyes open for a Radeon 9800 for it...

Thank you once again for putting up with me and helping me with my indecision, especially to AssassyN who's arguments for the G4 DP were so convincing.

Alistair

[AssassyN]

Very, very sane choice. I think you'll be extremely satisfied with that decision after you get the DP G4 in your hands and see how fast it really is...escp. in video editing, the dual procs. will definitely come in handy.

You'll be saving yourself the headache of overwhelming debt as well...CONGRATS, and let us know when you get it!

[Bbazzarrakk]

Sounds like I'm a little late to this party, but I'll add my two cents anyway.

Honestly, I would wait.

It damn near killed me to type that. I'm the biggest "Everybody Needs a Mac" guy I know and I'm sitting over here counting the seconds until my own G5 ships.

However, you have a very high end PC over there. I'm not 100% sure where the 1.8 stacks up in comparison yet, I think we're going to need to wait a little while to find that out, but I'm pretty darn sure that 1.25 Dual G4 you're looking at is a lesser machine, raw power wise.

Ordinarily, I would say that doesn't even matter, power isn't everything. You've hit on that yourself a little, talking about the virtues of OS X. The tasks you've mentioned though, DV and especially games, they take some horsepower and that means you're going to feel the difference. Is that really what you want out of your first Mac?

To be honest, the games are another heafty problem, without the power to run them maxed out. You're using a PC now, which means you're very spoiled. I've got two shelves of my desk filled with Mac games, but I know enough to admit it's just not the same. We get some of the great stuff, eventually, but the wait can be significant. That means when you're getting into a game, your PC friends are long done with it, usually. Also, there's not always a lot of logic to what we do and don't get. We got Civilization III, but haven't seen any sign of the Play the World expansion, which was a bit hit in the PC world. I guess our sales just weren't high enough. Finally, most of our games are ported PC titles. Some porting houses are very good at what they do, others are not. You can sure feel it in the game, when it's a poor port, I think. The last two SimCities have really shown this and Black and White shipped without even being finished. These are just examples I'm familiar with. Your tastes may differ, but I expect you'll notice the same things. I do most of my gaming on a PS2 these days and I really feel that's the way to go, but that's a different subject.

Well, the choice is of course all yours to make. If you were considering the 2.0 Dual G5, I would have said, "Do it!", but your comparing an older G4 model well known for being bandwidth starved and a new G5 model that hasn't really even reached its potential yet. And your wanting to switch off of a high end machine. Drop processor power, graphic cards, etc, and you are going to feel it. I guess in the end all I'm saying is, make sure you know what you want and that you're getting it, before you make this trade. Good luck with your choice.

Baz