[ReggieX]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I bought an Suburban last year and yeah, it's costing me $60 to fill up.

Still, I'd buy it all over again because I feel very safe in it. VERY SAFE.

Only very bad drivers buy SUVs to "feel safe" when driving.

[Cody Dawg]

Haven't had a ticket in about, uh, 15 years. The last ticket I got was because my plates were expired because I forget to renew them for the current year.

I am a very good driver.

But, when a person drives through the red light and hits the side of your car doing 40mph + and you have children (including a baby) in the car, you want a big vehicle that is higher off the ground than a car.

Someone hit me the other day at the bank. She ran right into the back of our vehicle. We have a trailer hitch for a boat there so she hit the hitch, but the point is that all we felt was a gentle bump. I got out and the entire front end of her car was smashed in - and there was a huge hole where the hitch went through the front end of her car. She was driving a Honda Accord.

[Person Man]

I'm in Greece on vacation right now, and gasoline prices are about 82 eurocents per liter for the standard stuff, and 98 eurocents per liter for 100 octane (100?? we only go up to 93 in the US...)

That converts to US $4.19/gallon for the standard stuff and $5.00/gallon for the expensive stuff.

Guess what? I've been here almost a month and I have yet to see a SUV

When gasoline hits $3-4 a gallon in the US, I'm sure we'll see less SUVs on the road too.

[Scifience]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I bought an Suburban last year and yeah, it's costing me $60 to fill up.

Still, I'd buy it all over again because I feel very safe in it. VERY SAFE.

I live in the land of blue-hairs (age 70+ and over) and feel at risk driving next to or near them.

Just for your reference:

Crash Test Ratings for 2004 Chevy Suburban - 4 Star Driver, 3 Star Passenger

Crash Test Ratings for my 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid - 5 Star Driver, 5 Star Passenger

Draw your own conclusions as to how safe SUVs really are.

[Cody Dawg]

Well, maybe it's a fallacy to believe that my Suburban is safe. But, I feel safe in it and also, I REALLY need the space. We have 6 people in our family. I hate minivans so they wouldn't work.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
BUT, who can deny that the price of a Coke is great?

Isn't it something like $.79 for half a gallon? ("Big Gulp")

Hmm, no. Not here. Cheapest I could find by searching a bit was 14.95 DKr + deposit fee (3.00 DKr) for 2 litres, which was in Netto.

That's $2.50 for half a gallon. Add the deposit fee and it's $3 for half a gallon.

But I never drink Coke, so I couldn't care less.

(Prices for buying it in a bigger supermarket like Kvickly are $2.80 and $3.46 for half a gallon of Coke. So more expensive than petrol, but still cheaper than water, go figure.)

[Troll]

Originally posted by Scifience:
Just for your reference:

Crash Test Ratings for 2004 Chevy Suburban - 4 Star Driver, 3 Star Passenger

Crash Test Ratings for my 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid - 5 Star Driver, 5 Star Passenger

Draw your own conclusions as to how safe SUVs really are.

Passive safety is far more important than the rigidity of the vehicle you're in. You'd be far better off avoiding any accident entirely no matter how strong or big your car is.

SUV's are nightmares from a passive safety point of view. They handle badly in comparison to regular cars making it more difficult to manouevre out of a dangerous situation, they're heavy so braking distances are increased and worst of all, their weight distribution makes them much more prone to turn over. You're more likely to lose control of an SUV than you are of a regular car. I believe there was a study done recently that proved that SUV's are more dangerous for their occupants than normal cars; higher injury per passenger kilometre ratio than regular cars. You may FEEL safer but you aren't.

Check out this link for a comparison between SUV's and cars.
http://www.legis.state.wv.us/Joint/P...eVehJanrpt.htm

Some highlights:

Braking Distance from 60mph:
Ford Crown Victoria 136'
Ford Expedition 4WD 157'
Chevy Tahoe 4WD 165'

Road Handling Index:
Ford Crown Victoria .79
Chevy Tahoe 4WD .68
Ford Expedition .66

A study performed by the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that 47% of all fatalities in light trucks result from rollover. By comparison only 22% of car deaths are attributable to vehicle rollover.

[angelmb]

The issue with SUVs is that they provide 'visual safety' (the feeling) much easier that a saloon car.

[Scifience]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Well, maybe it's a fallacy to believe that my Suburban is safe. But, I feel safe in it and also, I REALLY need the space. We have 6 people in our family. I hate minivans so they wouldn't work.

I understand that reason completely. Our family had a 1989 Ford station wagon before the Accord. We spent a lot of time looking for cars, and could not really find anything other than a minivan or an SUV that had the sort of space that we needed. We finally decided that the Accord Hybrid would be the best bet for our family because of the good gas mileage and environmental benefits despite the puny trunk space, since we don't haul stuff too often.

We have no clue what we'll do now when we do go on a long road trip or need to haul a large something, though.

I understand that there are lots of reasons why people need SUVs. I only get mad when I see the huge gas-guzzling SUV with one guy in it and hauling/carrying nothing. To me, that is a waste of resources. But if you need it for space or some other legitimate reason, I have no problem with SUV owners.

I was just trying to point out that it isn't as safe as many people think.

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Haven't had a ticket in about, uh, 15 years. The last ticket I got was because my plates were expired because I forget to renew them for the current year.

I am a very good driver.

That has exactly nothing to do with being a good or bad driver.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
$2.02 for 89 in SOuth Texas.

What's funny, though, is that a lot of people complain (not saying Cody was, I'm just commenting) about the price of a gallon of gas, but they buy bottled water -- bottled water -- for well over twice that. A local donut shop sells a pint (.9 fl. oz.) of Ozarka for $.89, so that's about $7.12 per gallon.

Boy, are our priorities messed up.

Maury

Yeah, but you don't buy it 25 gallons at a time. And bottled water isn't a necessity, it's a luxury. If it ever became too high people would switch back to tap water.

Not to spit on your analogy, I've made it myself, but it isn't comparable.

That being said, I wonder how high gas has to be before we start seeing some real political action on the alternative energy front? Everything the current, and former, administration has done has been token.

If gas continues to creep up to $2.50-$3.00, you're going to see a real effect on inflation and the economy as it spreads throughout the country.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by angelmb:
The issue with SUVs is that they provide 'visual safety' (the feeling) much easier that a saloon car.

The problem is that "feeling" is often not justified.

Originally posted by vmpaul:
Yeah, but you don't buy it 25 gallons at a time. And bottled water isn't a necessity, it's a luxury. If it ever became too high people would switch back to tap water.

Low gas mileage vehicles aren't necessities. They are luxuries.

There are many valid reasons to own an SUV, but the above aren't among them for most people.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
There are many valid reasons to own an SUV, but the above aren't among them for most people.

By 'the above', are you referring to the safety aspect, or to the space aspect, or to both?

[Person Man]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
If gas continues to creep up to $2.50-$3.00, you're going to see a real effect on inflation and the economy as it spreads throughout the country.

Short term, yes.

Long term, people will adjust accordingly, just as Europe has.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:

Low gas mileage vehicles aren't necessities. They are luxuries.

There are many valid reasons to own an SUV, but the above aren't among them for most people.

I think the distinction between low and high gas mileage vehicles is muddier than the line between tap and bottled water. (No pun intended)

In this country bottled water is an absolute luxury, gasoline isn't.

[derbs]

Nottingham UK: 82p a litre. = about $7/ us gallon

That's why there's not many V8s on the road

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by Person Man:
Short term, yes.

Long term, people will adjust accordingly, just as Europe has.

True.

Does the price vary as much in Europe as it does here? It seems like we've had swings into and over the $2.50 range (in CA) several times in the last year. It's easier to get used to when it's stable, less so when it fluctuates frequently.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
By 'the above', are you referring to the safety aspect, or to the space aspect, or to both?

Both.

Some SUVs are safe. Many aren't. And no car is safe if driven improperly.

Some people need the space or off-road capabilities, etc., but around here it seems for most it's simply a status symbol.

What I always find a bit disturbing, yet amusing, is whenever there is a snowfall, the local neighbourhood sidewalks are littered with... you guessed it... mostly SUVs. Not sure why, but my guess is:

1) It's a relatively well-to-do neighbourhood, and SUVs are all over the place already, so it's not a huge surprise that a lot of the accidents would involve SUVs.
2) The people around here who drive them are overconfident, because they "feel" safer.
3) The people around here who drive them are stupid, and forget to turn on the 4-wheel drive.
4) The added weight of some SUVs makes some of them more prone to these types of accidents.
5) All of the above.

Anyways, this is straying off the gas mileage topic somewhat. I just want to point out that while I think it's fine for someone to want an SUV, s/he should really think about the decision. Is s/he prepared to properly drive the car? Does s/he want to pay those gas prices? Does s/he really need the space or hauling and off-road capabilities?

BTW, I was in a Toyota/Lexus dealership a while back, looking at a Prius hybrid. I got to talking to another customer in the dealership who said, "Someone in your field should only buy a Lexus". ie. Since I could afford a Lexus, I must buy one. I was like WTF? They're nice cars and all, and they have a great reliability record, but I don't need the status symbol nonsense part of it.

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
True.

Does the price vary as much in Europe as it does here? It seems like we've had swings into and over the $2.50 range (in CA) several times in the last year. It's easier to get used to when it's stable, less so when it fluctuates frequently.

Our prices are fairly stable as they are somewhat controlled by the governments (more than 50% of the gas price goes to the government here, the taxes on gas are outrageous).

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by Goldfinger:
Our prices are fairly stable as they are somewhat controlled by the governments (more than 50% of the gas price goes to the government here, the taxes on gas are outrageous).

Outrageous yes, but look at the trade-offs - lower automobile ownership, more mass transit, etc. It's the debate that continually rages here whenever gas prices rise.

[Scotttheking]

I was thinking about buying a V6 Accord, but I think that if I get a car this summer I'll just go with the 4 cylinder model. I'll survive without the larger engine.

[Scifience]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
I was thinking about buying a V6 Accord, but I think that if I get a car this summer I'll just go with the 4 cylinder model. I'll survive without the larger engine.

We were originally looking at the 4 cylinder model as well, but found that the hybrid had a V6 engine (that is actually more powerful than the regular V6 accord) and better gas mileage too, so we went with that instead.

[Eug Wanker]

Yeah, that V6 Accord hybrid looks like an interesting car. The rated mileage is significantly worse than my 2004 Prius, but nonetheless, it seems to be a reasonable compromise for a lot of people. There is a cost premium, but that may be mitigated somewhat by tax incentives in certain regions.

BTW, the Accord hybrid won the Consumer Reports top family car award

The fact that it sometimes shuts 3 cylinders off is interesting.

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by Scifience:
We were originally looking at the 4 cylinder model as well, but found that the hybrid had a V6 engine (that is actually more powerful than the regular V6 accord) and better gas mileage too, so we went with that instead.

I have 2 major issues with the hybrid that prevent me from buying one.
1. It's expensive. I'm buying a used car. College student budget and all.
2. It has very little trunk space, which I need.

I'm also only planning to get it for 2-2.5 years, then selling it again. My mom is planning to give me her 2004 4 cylinder accord once the 3 year lease runs out, at which point she'll be getting a hybrid vehicle.
I'll then keep that car around for a few years while I build up funds. Once I decide to replace it, it'll be replaced with a hybrid.

[Scifience]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Yeah, that V6 Accord hybrid looks like an interesting car. The rated mileage is significantly worse than my 2004 Prius, but nonetheless, it seems to be a reasonable compromise for a lot of people. There is a cost premium, but that may be mitigated somewhat by tax incentives in certain regions.

BTW, the Accord hybrid won the Consumer Reports top family car award

The fact that it sometimes shuts 3 cylinders off is interesting.

Actually, the Prius was our first choice. However, in our area, there was a 1-2 year waiting list, and we needed a new car now. The old Ford had finally gotten to the point where it wasn't worth repairing anymore.

[Scifience]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
I have 2 major issues with the hybrid that prevent me from buying one.
1. It's expensive. I'm buying a used car. College student budget and all.
2. It has very little trunk space, which I need.

I'm also only planning to get it for 2-2.5 years, then selling it again. My mom is planning to give me her 2004 4 cylinder accord once the 3 year lease runs out, at which point she'll be getting a hybrid vehicle.
I'll then keep that car around for a few years while I build up funds. Once I decide to replace it, it'll be replaced with a hybrid.

Yeah, the price was a bit of a stretch for us as well, but we managed to swing it with only $500 a month in payments. Yikes.

The trunk space was also a problem for us, but in the end, the better gas mileage and bigger engine won out.

That, and the standard XM radio. :-P

[Shaddim]

$1.89 this morning when I filled up.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
$1.89 this morning when I filled up.

That's all? What is it normally?

I haven't seen it $1.89 in the Bay Area for ages.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
That's all? What is it normally?

I haven't seen it $1.89 in the Bay Area for ages.

Our state gas tax isn't nearly as high... and I got .10 off with my Food City value card.

It was just $1.75 3 weeks ago.

[vmpaul]

Actually, that rise seems similar to ours. I guess it just sounds, and feels, more dramatic when it gets over $2.00 and into the $2.25 range.

All of a sudden something that cost $37 to fill is now costing $50. You definitely notice that at the pump. It's not killer but it all adds up.

[JustAnOl'Broad]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
That's all? What is it normally?

I haven't seen it $1.89 in the Bay Area for ages.

Been between $2- 2.50 on I-5 a couple hours North of SF
for some time now.
Went to Sacto today; $2.22 at a cheap spot.
Last nite in Williams,CA was $2.44 at the cheapest pump.

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
Outrageous yes, but look at the trade-offs - lower automobile ownership, more mass transit, etc. It's the debate that continually rages here whenever gas prices rise.

I really don't believe that automobile ownership is lower. Everybody has a car and everyone uses that car to get from A to B, the only people that use public mass transit are kids to get to school and older people.

[BasketofPuppies]

Originally posted by Goldfinger:
I really don't believe that automobile ownership is lower. Everybody has a car and everyone uses that car to get from A to B, the only people that use public mass transit are kids to get to school and older people.

And those of us who live in tourist traps where the amount of traffic on the streets and lack of parking spaces (unless you pay a lot) makes it faster to walk than drive.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Well, maybe it's a fallacy to believe that my Suburban is safe. But, I feel safe in it ...

It's that feeling that is actually part of the problem. That false sense of security makes SUV drivers (on average) less cautious than someone driving something like a Honda Civic.

For example (and I know this doesn't apply to Floridians): where I live we get a significant amount of snow during the months of January and February. During heavy snowfalls, there are more SUVs in the ditch than any other vehicle. Why? These are vehicles designed for going off road; they're 4WD systems and big tires give them better traction than any other consumer vehicle.

So why are SUVs the ones in the ditch? The likely answer is because the drivers feel safer and don't fully realize that increased acceleration traction doesn't translate into increased breaking traction. In icy road conditions it is not surprising to see SUVs being driven as though it were the middle of summer and road conditions are ideal. As a result, when they are forced to break, they either end up in an accident or the ditch.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
It's that feeling that is actually part of the problem. That false sense of security makes SUV drivers (on average) less cautious than someone driving something like a Honda Civic.

For example (and I know this doesn't apply to Floridians): where I live we get a significant amount of snow during the months of January and February. During heavy snowfalls, there are more SUVs in the ditch than any other vehicle. Why? These are vehicles designed for going off road; they're 4WD systems and big tires give them better traction than any other consumer vehicle.

So why are SUVs the ones in the ditch? The likely answer is because the drivers feel safer and don't fully realize that increased acceleration traction doesn't translate into increased breaking traction. In icy road conditions it is not surprising to see SUVs being driven as though it were the middle of summer and road conditions are ideal. As a result, when they are forced to break, they either end up in an accident or the ditch.

... or as a physics professor at my school put it: anyone doing 100 mph in a 90 degree curve is plain stupid. (Aka you can't beat the laws of physics.)

[Athens]

I want to get a TDI, Either Jetta or Passat. They are so good on fuel even if Desial went higher then gas its still worth it. TDI can get 1200km on a single take on the hwy, thats almost Vancouver to Calgary on one tank.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
87+ cents/L locally last I checked (also in Toronto).

Personally, I hope it hits $1, with similar increases in the US, and stays there for the time being.

It hit 89 cents/L locally today... ie. Still rising. I expect it to hit 90 something and then probably plateau or just fall back down again.

Crude is over $57 US a barrel now. Curiously though, my oil stocks haven't gone up since last week.

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
... or as a physics professor at my school put it: anyone doing 100 mph in a 90 degree curve is plain stupid. (Aka you can't beat the laws of physics.)

Very true.

However, in a sporty sedan, doing 60 around a curve is usually pretty easy. In most SUVs I've driven it's much harder.

Originally posted by Athens:
I want to get a TDI, Either Jetta or Passat. They are so good on fuel even if Desial went higher then gas its still worth it. TDI can get 1200km on a single take on the hwy, thats almost Vancouver to Calgary on one tank.

Heh. My GF rented a diesel truck to move a TV a while back. It took us 20 minutes to find a damn diesel gas station. In downtown Toronto, they're few and far between.

[dlefebvre]

In Montreal : $0.92CDN per Liter = $3.48CDN per Gallon = $2.57US per Gallon.

[beb]

$2.11 per gallon

[budster101]

$2.30 per gallon!

[iREZ]

Just filled up for 2.36 in Los Angeles.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
Yeah, but you don't buy it 25 gallons at a time. And bottled water isn't a necessity, it's a luxury. If it ever became too high people would switch back to tap water.

Heh, I'm going to print this post so I can keep it. You imply that GAS is a NECESSITY. Sorry, man, but it's NOT. GAS is a luxury, transportation is more a necessity -- let's get them straight. You don't HAVE to drive a car. You don't HAVE to gas-up all the time. "But I have to drive to work, blah blah blah..." -- no you don't. Ride a bike, Carpool. Public transportation, whatever. Just be sure you understand the fine line of something being a TRUE necessity vs. something being a "like" or "luxury" that isn't required for existence on this planet.

As to buying 25 gallons at a time -- what difference does it make? You're stil throwing the same amount of money away.

Maury

[Oisín]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
GAS is a luxury, transportation is more a necessity -- let's get them straight. Ride a bike, Carpool. Public transportation, whatever. Just be sure you understand the fine line of something being a TRUE necessity vs. something being a "like" or "luxury" that isn't required for existence on this planet.

How does carpooling and public transportation not rely on petrol?

And painting with a somewhat wider brush, petrol/gas/oil/diesel/paraffine/petroleum/etc. (refined oil products) are all necessities of the society that we've built for ourselves, not mere luxuries.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
It hit 89 cents/L locally today... ie. Still rising. I expect it to hit 90 something and then probably plateau or just fall back down again.

Crude is over $57 US a barrel now. Curiously though, my oil stocks haven't gone up since last week.


Very true.

However, in a sporty sedan, doing 60 around a curve is usually pretty easy. In most SUVs I've driven it's much harder.

...

I think you misread the unit, 100 mph = 160 km/h (I wrote miles per hour, the professor initially mentioned 180 km/h), no biggie.
Obviously, if the turning radius is large enough ...

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
How does carpooling and public transportation not rely on petrol?

And painting with a somewhat wider brush, petrol/gas/oil/diesel/paraffine/petroleum/etc. (refined oil products) are all necessities of the society that we've built for ourselves, not mere luxuries.

Carpooling and public transport uses less fuel than driving your own car by yourself.

And yes, a car is a luxury item. It's more necessary for me than an iPod, but it's still a luxury item. My GF doesn't own one. She seems to get around just fine with her own 2-feet, or taking the bus.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by RAILhead:

Heh, I'm going to print this post so I can keep it. You imply that GAS is a NECESSITY. Sorry, man, but it's NOT. GAS is a luxury, transportation is more a necessity -- let's get them straight. You don't HAVE to drive a car. You don't HAVE to gas-up all the time. "But I have to drive to work, blah blah blah..." -- no you don't. Ride a bike, Carpool. Public transportation, whatever. Just be sure you understand the fine line of something being a TRUE necessity vs. something being a "like" or "luxury" that isn't required for existence on this planet.

Be my guest. Sleep with it under your pillow if you want.

How naive can you be. You take the majority of people on the highways right now and have them 'ride a bike' or rely on our underdeveloped and underfunded 'mass transit' and we'll see how fast this economy grinds to a halt. Maybe we can furlough everybody in the north during winter when we take their cars away? Wait, maybe they can just ride their bikes What's a little snow, huh?

Any suggestion that we're ready, right now, to abandon the current transportation infrastructure and maintain the same economic output and production is idiotic.

Whether you like it or not gas is a NECESSITY. Unless you're willing to throttle down the economy drastically while we develop alternatives. is that what you're saying?

Originally posted by RAILhead:

As to buying 25 gallons at a time -- what difference does it make? You're stil throwing the same amount of money away.

Maury

Big difference between spending $1.25 on a bottle of water and needing to fill your gas tank every week to get to your job. I would think that would be obvious. I guess not.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Carpooling and public transport uses less fuel than driving your own car by yourself.

But you're still, ultimately, paying for at least part of the petrol through tickets. If suddenly the state decided to triple petrol prices, public transportation ticket prices would also rise.

But that wasn't even my point - my point was that, as it was written in Maury's post, he seemed to be saying that unlike with a car, there is no need for petrol with public transportation, which is obviously not the case.

And yes, a car is a luxury item. It's more necessary for me than an iPod, but it's still a luxury item. My GF doesn't own one. She seems to get around just fine with her own 2-feet, or taking the bus.

I'm not saying having your own car isn't a luxury - I don't have one either (or a license for that matter), and I manage just fine too. But a bus, or even (painting with the same wider brush again) a train or a ferry, is also a 'car' in that it's a petrol-[or other refined oil product]-driven means of transportation. Aside for walking, biking, sailing with engineless sailboats and jumping on your tongue, petrol enters the picture at some point.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
Big difference between spending $1.25 on a bottle of water and needing to fill your gas tank every week to get to your job. I would think that would be obvious. I guess not.

No, not really. If you spend $1.25 on a bottle of water four times a day, seven days a week, that's $35 a week on water. Depending on mileage, etc., I think it's fairly realistic to say that quite a few people spend less than that on petrol.

To what extent it is necessary for any given person to buy four bottles of water every day, or to drive in their own car to work every day is quite a different issue.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
But you're still, ultimately, paying for at least part of the petrol through tickets. If suddenly the state decided to triple petrol prices, public transportation ticket prices would also rise.

But that wasn't even my point - my point was that, as it was written in Maury's post, he seemed to be saying that unlike with a car, there is no need for petrol with public transportation, which is obviously not the case.

I'm not saying having your own car isn't a luxury - I don't have one either (or a license for that matter), and I manage just fine too. But a bus, or even (painting with the same wider brush again) a train or a ferry, is also a 'car' in that it's a petrol-[or other refined oil product]-driven means of transportation. Aside for walking, biking, sailing with engineless sailboats and jumping on your tongue, petrol enters the picture at some point.

The point is not to stop using gasoline altogether. The point is to try to reduce energy consumption.

BTW, my local main public transportation is electrical trolley and electrical subway.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
The point is not to stop using gasoline altogether. The point is to try to reduce energy consumption.

I agree that's the main object, what should be the main goal. But it wasn't the point of this particular little quibble here

BTW, my local main public transportation is electrical trolley and electrical subway.

Yeah, the subway here is electric too (though not buses, and we have no trams). But still - what's used to make the electricity that runs it? (Okay, in our case it's actually coal, not oil, but various other major electricity-suckers in this city are fuelled by electricity made in oil refinement)