[OAW]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Like the blacks who are "dumb enough" to vote back in the same group who oversaw cut their average income by 40% in just 8 years?.

Or the willfully obtuse individuals like yourself who are "dumb enough" to pretend like the Great Recession that occurred during the Bush Administration had nothing to do with it.

There's an old saying that "When the economy catches a cold, the African-American community gets pneumonia." By your logic the African-American electorate should reward the GOP with their vote when it was their policies that put that infected them with economic "pneumonia" in the first place. All because President Obama wasn't able to completely clean up the mess they created in a mere 8 years. That's utter hogwash. Full stop.

OAW

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

You can't read the above graph?

Was that even there when I posted? I never saw it before.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

He spent >3x more time fundraising for himself and the DNC than actually running the country, you tell me.

Obama Is Spending an Unprecedented Amount of Time Fundraising: Scandal? - The Atlantic

How do campaign funds equate to his personal wealth increasing? Or is this just another unrelated attack on Obama?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

\



How do campaign funds equate to his personal wealth increasing?

A very good question indeed. Funny how that works.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Was that even there when I posted? I never saw it before.

Yep.

How do campaign funds equate to his personal wealth increasing? Or is this just another unrelated attack on Obama?

"Soft" donations are essentially just income for politicians, and Obama is no different. Even direct campaign contributions can be funneled into "leadership PACs" to be used in virtually any way they see fit, as long as they aren't directly buying things for themselves. Of course, after it goes into those slush funds the money is much harder to track.

[BadKosh]

Nothing to see here?

Hacker demonstrates how voting machines can be compromised - CBS News

[P]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Nothing to see here?

Hacker demonstrates how voting machines can be compromised - CBS News

Old news - it has been a problem since the 2004 election at least. I think even Leno, never one to invite controversy, joked about it on his monologue. If you don't recall, voting machines from Diebold in particular were shown to be horrendously insecure (IIRC, voting results were stored unencrypted in a regular MS Access database on a drive in the machine, and anyone with a screwdriver, a laptop and about 10 minutes could have edited the voting total to whatever they wanted, leaving no trace of what had happened). This paired with a quote out of context from a Diebold executive about how he was proud to "help GWB secure the presidency" or something and the conspiracy theorists were off to the races.

That said, I do believe that electronic voting machines should be improved. It is not an easy problem to solve, but a way to audit the results has to be the first step.

[The Final Dakar]

Wisconsin voter ID back on

[subego]

Originally Posted by P 

That said, I do believe that electronic voting machines should be improved. It is not an easy problem to solve, but a way to audit the results has to be the first step.

Why would we want a system which doesn't generate a paper trail? What's the problem this is solving?

[P]

Of course there should be a paper trail. I'm just saying that I don't think that that is enough.

[subego]

Allow me to rephrase.

What's the problem with the non-electronic systems we have now? Why do we even need an electronic system in the first place?

[OAW]

Originally Posted by subego 

Allow me to rephrase.

What's the problem with the non-electronic systems we have now? Why do we even need an electronic system in the first place?

The ridiculously long lines that result from people having to wait to fill out a piece of paper in a centralized location.

OAW

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by OAW 

The ridiculously long lines that result from people having to wait to fill out a piece of paper in a centralized location.

OAW

And with paper, you still have people in charge of keeping the paper ballots valid. People are corruptible. Computer systems can be made not to be (or at least raise the bar on corrupting them). That said, with the NSA being what it is perhaps it's best to do both, that way we can use one system to verify the other.

Doesn't help much with the lines, but the voting machines now are an absolute joke.

[OAW]

^^^

Agreed. I'm not saying I favor online voting. But I'm not saying I oppose it out of hand either. An online voting system can be hacked. And the paper system we have now is subject to ballot box stuffing. No system is perfect. We as a society just have to wisely balance the pros and the cons.

OAW

[subego]

Originally Posted by OAW 

The ridiculously long lines that result from people having to wait to fill out a piece of paper in a centralized location.

OAW

Are we talking about online voting or voting on a computer at a centralized location?

I was referring to the second.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

And with paper, you still have people in charge of keeping the paper ballots valid. People are corruptible. Computer systems can be made not to be (or at least raise the bar on corrupting them). That said, with the NSA being what it is perhaps it's best to do both, that way we can use one system to verify the other.

Doesn't help much with the lines, but the voting machines now are an absolute joke.

The bigger the human system, the more people you need to corrupt to achieve useful results.

A computer system is a single target.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by subego 

Are we talking about online voting or voting on a computer at a centralized location?

I was referring to the second.

Oh my bad. Thought you meant the former. Even still the latter with a paper audit is much more efficient. That's what I always go with when given the option of that or a paper ballot.

OAW

[subego]

I've never used one. What kind of efficiency gains are we talking?

My semi-educated guess is that more of those flimsy AF "booths" and the space to house them, will get you more throughput with less expense.

Hell... because the chad machine was replaced with pens, on at least one occasion I've not bothered to wait for a booth to open. Try that with an electronic system.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by subego 

The bigger the human system, the more people you need to corrupt to achieve useful results.

A computer system is a single target.

Which is why using both in tandem to verify each other gives you the security benefit of both approaches.

In my system, a vote would be cast on paper then scanned in. The ballot would be retained for verification purposes & any tampering with the computer system would be easily identifiable.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Which is why using both in tandem to verify each other gives you the security benefit of both approaches.

In my system, a vote would be cast on paper then scanned in. The ballot would be retained for verification purposes & any tampering with the computer system would be easily identifiable.

Unless I misunderstand, this is the system in place here.

You vote on paper, and they're tabulated by a machine located at each polling location.

I don't know how good of a job they did, but you can make a system like this pretty bulletproof.

A computer is the opposite of what to use here though. Someone with better engineering chops can weigh in, but I'm imagining it could be done with a few integrated circuits.

[The Final Dakar]

I just want voting receipts. And yes electronic is faster than the old bs I had (use marker to fill in the line of the arrow pointing to your preferred candidate)

[subego]

I assume it is. Is it so much faster it's worth adopting the risk?

[The Final Dakar]

That's a very good question. I don't have an answer. Particularly at a time when it seems there always precincts each election that suffer from long lines, which discourages voting.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

That's a very good question. I don't have an answer. Particularly at a time when it seems there always precincts each election that suffer from long lines, which discourages voting.

My spidey senses tell me the vast majority of this is election board shenanigans.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by subego 

I've never used one. What kind of efficiency gains are we talking?

Just the efficiency of a touchscreen system vs having to use a punch-hole paper ballot. The pictures on the former are very helpful when having to choose between candidates with the same or similar last names.

OAW

[subego]

I'm sure there's some stuff I'm missing, but here's my overall argument.

If a place has ridiculous lines it's obvious what the problem is. The precinct is too large. You must construct additional pylons.

A new precinct requires space, a half-dozen poorly paid judges, a bunch of flimsy suitcase booths, and a tabulation machine.

The vast majority of the problem precincts are in urban areas. Urban municipalities own a ****ton of property. If it's on city property, the space is free. If those booths cost more than $50 a pop in bulk I think it's time we started to have some of our tools of democracy made in China. When I was a judge they paid $5 an hour. The only large expense is the tabulation machine.

All of that probably costs less than a single computer voting machine. I don't think attacking the problem with those should be considered until there's been maximal use of government property.

That same ol' spidey sense is telling me that's not happening in these precincts.


Of course, there is one large expense I overlooked... every precinct is required to have a couple of computerized voting machines.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Just the efficiency of a touchscreen system vs having to use a punch-hole paper ballot. The pictures on the former are very helpful when having to choose between candidates with the same or similar last names.

OAW

The ballots we use are filled out with a pen. Which are a fair step up in efficiency from punch-hole ballots. Anyway, as we're all aware, punch-hole ballots have other issues.

As I said, I'm sure there's a efficiency gain, the question is how large versus the security risk.

Or just in terms of raw expense, as I argue above. You can throw down 20 suitcase booths for every computer. Which is going to give you more throughput, 20 booths or one computer?

[OAW]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'm sure there's some stuff I'm missing, but here's my overall argument.

If a place has ridiculous lines it's obvious what the problem is. The precinct is too large.

Either that or there aren't enough voting machines.

OAW

[subego]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Either that or there aren't enough voting machines.

OAW

That's one of the benefits of the ballots you fill out with a pen. A voting "machine" is any flat surface.

We have these things which fit in an attaché case sized deal. The case is the surface, it contains four sectioned poles to raise it up, and a cardboard "privacy shield". They can't cost very much.

As I mentioned up-thread, I've just screwed the waiting for a "booth" part and found an available surface.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by subego 

That's one of the benefits of the ballots you fill out with a pen. A voting "machine" is any flat surface.

We have these things which fit in an attaché case sized deal. The case is the surface, it contains four sectioned poles to raise it up, and a cardboard "privacy shield". They can't cost very much.

As I mentioned up-thread, I've just screwed the waiting for a "booth" part and found an available surface.

Indeed. It's certainly less expensive than electronic voting machines. That being said, I'm not convinced the sudden shortages of voting machines in densely populated urban areas is primarily a matter of funding.

OAW

[subego]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Indeed. It's certainly less expensive than electronic voting machines. That being said, I'm not convinced the sudden shortages of voting machines in densely populated urban areas is primarily a matter of funding.

OAW

No question. My money is on election board shenanigans.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by subego 

No question. My money is on election board shenanigans.

It all begins with how each state is heavily gerrymandered (afterall, these are how the districts are established in the first place). I bet ya if we somehow got that loophole closed you would see a drastic drop in wait-times across the country, both in Red and Blue states. Not only that, but the elections might actually have a chance at becoming legitimate for once.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

It all begins with how each state is heavily gerrymandered (afterall, these are how the districts are established in the first place). I bet ya if we somehow got that loophole closed you would see a drastic drop in wait-times across the country, both in Red and Blue states. Not only that, but the elections might actually have a chance at becoming legitimate for once.

I feel there's too high a correlation between where this happens and whether it's a battleground state.

Frex, I get the impression the Chicago Board of Elections pretty much gets to run things the way they want, while say the Cleveland Board of Elections doesn't.

Either that, or the Cleveland Board needs to be taken out behind the shed for a paddlin'.

[BadKosh]

How about a paper ballot using ink to "Vote" and a right hand thumb print in the upper left hand corner?

[subego]

Let's give the government the unlock key for my phone. What could go wrong?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

election board shenanigans.

There's a better term for this it it escapes me at the moment...

[subego]

Fraud?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Fraud?

*looks at thread title*

*concentrates hard*

[subego]

I meant a WTF Pennsylvania.

[subego]

More serious response:

I'm trying to draw a distinction between Election Board WTF Pennsylvania and legislative WTF Pennsylvania.

[The Final Dakar]

Well, I'm officially lost

[subego]

Now you know how I feel.

I'm saying voter suppression with an ID law is a legislative problem, voter suppression with long lines is an election board problem.

Not that this is a particularly insightful observation.

[BadKosh]

Seven minutes to hack!

Time it takes to rig a voting machine? 7 minutes | Fox News

[The Final Dakar]

Since NCs voter suppression got blocked they're now cutting the hours for the reinstated early voting. In the biggest county which is coincidentally dem.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by subego 

I feel there's too high a correlation between where this happens and whether it's a battleground state.

Frex, I get the impression the Chicago Board of Elections pretty much gets to run things the way they want, while say the Cleveland Board of Elections doesn't.

Either that, or the Cleveland Board needs to be taken out behind the shed for a paddlin'.

I grew up in Maryland, about as blue of a state as you could get. The gerrymandering there was laughably blatant. Most recently Maryland dems put redistricting on the ballot as a referendum. Here's the text of the referendum question:

Originally Posted by Question 5

Question 5
Referendum Petition
Congressional Districting Plan (Ch. 1 of the 2011 Special Session)

Establishes the boundaries for the State’s eight United States Congressional Districts based on recent census figures, as required by the United States Constitution.

To any voter without explicit background information on the question, voting "No" sounds unconstitutional!

Check out the result for Maryland's 3rd congressional district.


Not surprisingly, Maryland tied for 1st most Gerrymandered state (with North Carolina) according to the washington post.

I think you'd see alot more battleground states if not for these dishonest shenanigans. Maryland, where you vote counts, just only for the candidate your government wants to win! (And NC, too)

[The Final Dakar]

I had no idea NC was gerrymandered (to that degree)

Also, what do you mean by battleground state? I'm used it being used in the presidential election context.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Since NCs voter suppression got blocked they're now cutting the hours for the reinstated early voting. In the biggest county which is coincidentally dem.

Imagine that.

OAW

[Snow-i]

OAW, Dakar. Whats your solution to the NC shenanigans? Vote dem?

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

OAW, Dakar. Whats your solution to the NC shenanigans? Vote dem?

At best these voter ID laws are a solution in search of a problem. At worst it's straight up voter suppression. And curtailing early voting hours arbitrarily speaks for itself. As far as I'm concerned it's pretty obvious that the GOP is engaging in a systematic effort nationwide to make it more difficult to vote for those portions of the electorate that are more likely to support Democrats. It's one thing to be partisan. But it's quite another to subvert democracy itself.

OAW

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

OAW, Dakar. Whats your solution to the NC shenanigans? Vote dem?

The-up the VRA, make it apply to everyone.

[The Final Dakar]

NC Republican Party seeks ‘party line changes’ to limit early voting hours | The Charlotte Observer