[Beewee]

The article

"The problem is that too many people crave the same few careers, for example, the arts and non-profit work. Because employers in these fields get dozens if not hundreds of applications for each job, you have to be a superstar or extremely well-connected to get the job. In other cases, salaries tend to be low or nonexistent. Do what you love and volunteer work will probably follow."

That is the argument that this crap is based on. The author gives no proof to back this claim up...as if the only jobs out there that people love are art and volunteer work. He doesn't go indepth into the art world and list any jobs that are offered. Interior Designer, Graphic designer, Web Page Design, Page layouts from anything from a newspaper to a magazine. People in these jobs are paid extremely well for their work. Starting salary for interior designs: $22,000 to $40,000 it can get as high as $100,000!
Info Link

"Nationally, salaried graphic designers earned between $30,000 and $50,000 on average in 2002. Graphic designers who move up to art director or designer director positions earned more --between $60,000 and $80,000 a year. Those at the largest firms can earn six-figure salaries. But many designers are freelance contractors who don't earn a fixed salary. They charge a fee for their services and their incomes vary a great deal.Info Link

This guy says later in his article "Don't Innovate", suggesting that you should "Open a burrito stand". As if our country doesn't have enough problems with jobs, kids dropping out of school, and apathetic parents, you have this idiot telling everyone to give up and play it safe.

"Unless you're a true superstar (brilliant, driven, great personality, or have great connections), give it up."

Of course none of us fit that definition of a "superstar", we're all are bunch of dumb, lazy, assholes with no friends.

[MacGorilla]

My cousin is a graphic designer and he started off small, at a firm that did graphics for those commercials you sometimes see on late night television or small dealership then worked his way up and now makes a good living. He had no connections; just pure talent.

[demograph68]

I doubt I'll ever make money as a designer.

[itai195]

"Do What You Love and You'll Probably Starve"

That is bs. Any career development counselor worth his/her salt will tell you that first and foremost you should do something you enjoy. You may not be able to make a great living in one of your primary interests, but don't take a job you hate just because the money is better. This has to be one of the worst articles I've ever read. Later on he tells prospective entrepreneurs not to innovate... wtf? Why not just say "Oh and that personal development and achievement crap? Toss it out the window... Just pop out a few kids, buy a big screen TV, and waste away the rest of your life watching football."

[bradoesch]

I would feel bad working for $5000 a year based on the quality of my sig.

[Truepop]

Originally posted by bradoesch:
I would feel bad working for $5000 a year based on the quality of my sig.

Then designing isn't for you. Be a wal-mart associate and make around $7800 a year. You'd be moving up. Roughly $6/hr at about 25 hours a week for 52 weeks.

[rozwado1]

Originally posted by itai195:
Just pop out a few kids, buy a big screen TV, and waste away the rest of your life watching football."

Ahh, the American Dream�

[Myrkridia]

I actually wrote him a few emails telling him exactly what I thought of him and his article.

Subject: Comments about a recent MSN web advice article

"I recently found an article on MSN (written by you) that was made for
the purpose of giving advice regarding career choice. After reading it I
felt compelled to share a few comments about it."

The problem is that too many people crave the same few careers, for
example, the arts and non-profit work. Because employers in these fields
get dozens if not hundreds of applications for each job, you have to be a
superstar or extremely well-connected to get the job. In other cases,
salaries tend to be low or nonexistent. Do what you love and volunteer
work will probably follow."

That's a generalization. You offer no supporting proof to back up your
claims that "many people" want a job in the art or non-profit career
world.

The irony is that the small percentage of people who do
make a living in "do-what-you-love," "follow-your-passion"
careers, are on average, no
happier than people in less sexy jobs.

Here's why. Not only do salaries in "cool" careers tend to be low,
employers in those fields know they needn't treat their employees with kid gloves
because zillions of other capable people are panting for the opportunity
to work 60 hours a week for $27,521 (with no benefits) for the good feeling
of knowing they're playing an infinitesimal role in saving the spotted owl
or whatever, even though they may never get closer to a spotted owl than a
pile of accounts receivable statements.

Now you're attempting to know what's in the minds of millions of
employers and employees. Yes I see the logic that if an employer knew that tons
of others wanted a job that "Johnson" was in; there would be no reason for
his boss to give him special treatment. But you still offer no
proof that people are any more or happy in their chosen career than someone who has a "sexy job." And once again you go back onto the kick
that everyone wants to get into the non-profit business
and "save the spotted owl."

So there are plenty of unhappy people in so-called cool careers. That's
true even in unarguably cool careers. Think of how many stars have big-time
problems with drugs or depression. Kurt Cobain, John Belushi and Janis Joplin loved their cool career so much they killed themselves.

Now you're trying to tell me that I should be careful or could end up
killing myself getting the career I'm passionate for.
Either that or you're saying just because I
get my dream job doesn't mean I'll be happy.
Whichever it is, you could have made it a little less vague.


In contrast, if your job is mundane, for example, marketing manager for
the Ace Processing Company, the employer knows there aren't hundreds of
competent people champing at the bit for your job. So, to keep you, the
employer is more likely to offer decent working conditions, reasonable
work hours, kind treatment, opportunities for learning, and pay you well.
Those are the things that, much more than being in a "cool" career, lead to
career contentment.

So the lesson here is to take something that is mind-numbingly boring so
you can get paid well or great. Screw the notion of actually enjoying your work, and
waking up every morning eager to get to your job. It's all about security.

You say you want status? Unless you're a true superstar (brilliant,
driven, great personality, or have great connections), give it up.

Oh my God. I wouldn't pay you a freaking dime to tell me how to go about
selecting a career that's right for me. "If you're not all of those
things, pack it in and give up!"


If someone thinks less of you because your job isn't high-status, they
don't deserve to be your friend.

Only the mentally disturbed get jobs to impress their friends.

Advice I'd Give My Child: (Your father is full of it)

If you're at all entrepreneurial, I recommend starting your own business.
Yes, I know, only 20 percent of new businesses are still in business
after five years, but you can beat the odds.

I can beat the odds at starting my own business AND making it a success,
but I can't, or in your >words shouldn't try to "beat the odds" in the
career world of...art and non-profit work?

Drive around to find a simple business at which customers are lined up
out the door. For example, see a successful burrito shop or espresso cart? Open a
similar one in a similar neighborhood. Your chances of success will be a helluva
lot higher than 20 percent. Confine your urge to innovate to your hobbies.

Like I said. Not..a..freaking..dime.
Open a burrito or espresso shop? Why don't I just work at Mcdonald's or
Walmart full time? You said above why work my ass off 60 hours a week
for $27,521 (with no benefits) I highly doubt I'd make more
than that running a burrito
stand, and at least working in Walmart I'd get benefits.

Another approach to finding a good business is to pick a grungy one, for
example, automatic transmission repair or mobile home park maintenance.

What? No garbage man?
Mobile home park maintenance? Did you lie awake at night thinking of the
lowest, bottom of the barrel jobs humanly possible?

You say you don't have the knowledge to run such a business? No problem.
For example, I don't know squat about transmissions, but if I wanted to open
a transmission shop, I'd find the best transmission mechanic, pay him well
and hire a consultant who is the owner a successful transmission shop far
enough from my store that he wouldn't fear my competition. The two of them would
teach me how to set up my business. Then, I'd spend my time building
relationships with car repair shop owners so I'd get their referral business.

Now we're moving onto the whole "You need money to make money" bull.
Few people are willing to risk their lively hood at a business they
aren't passionate about. How can you do a job, you don't love?
There's no motivation, no enjoyment.
And if this business fails, then you could end up just
as bad off as you stated above. "Starving, and struggling
to pay the bills (or student loans)"

If starting a business from scratch seems too scary, consider a
franchise. According to Robert Bond, author of Bond's Franchise Guide 2004, some of
the best include Jani-King commercial cleaning, Merry Maids residential
cleaning and Aussie Pet Mobile, a grooming service. When you find a franchise that
sounds appealing, be sure to speak with at least 10 of the franchise's
franchisees at random before signing on the dotted line.

Owning my own Mcdonald's as opposed to working there. Man I've had that
dream fora long long time.

If you're not at all entrepreneurial and want to be well employed, here
are some areas where the job market is not hypercompetitive: Court reporting,
car finance & insurance, accounting, insurance, sales of little known
commercial products, health care, health care administration,
fundraising, financial services, anything serving Latinos (entertainment, schools,
hospitals, criminal justice system), anti-terrorism and biotech regulatory
affairs.

Remember, you're more likely to find career contentment by going far from
the madding crowd.

You're more likely to succeed and find contentment by doing what you
want, and not trying to find others to live your life for you. Everyone's
situation is different so it's pointless trying to get advice from a
life/career coach when they can only speak from personal experience. I
guarentee you'll be happier trying and failing at a career you REALLY
wanted, then opening up your own "Aussie Pet Mobile" or working as an
insurance agent wondering for the rest of you days "What if."

Thank you for your time

--Someone's who's not going to "settle"

[Myrkridia]

He responded with: I'm sorry you're so angry. What I wrote is that people are as likely to find career contentment away from the immensely popular fields. That is
borne of my experience with over 2,000 clients. The San Francisco Bay
Guardian just named me the Bay Area's Best Career Coach and I enjoy a 97%
client satisfaction rate. This is because my clients pursue goals that
while motivating are realistic and end up happier and more successful as a
result. I'm sorry that you found my article so anathema.

With so much anger, I worry about your health.

Be well,

Marty
This is my last communication. I swear to you that every word was not
"fabricated, fictitious, nor erroneous." It is the distillation of what
I've learned from 18 years of career counseling with 2,000 clients. And my
results are wonderful: I enjoy a 97% client satisfaction rate and the San
Francisco Bay Guardian (on its front cover) just named me "The Bay Area's
Best Career Coach." I say this not to brag, but to encourage you, one last
time, to consider that perhaps, we find comfort among those who agree with
us; growth among those who don't.

And I daresay that if you read some of the articles on my website (free)
that you'll see I have quite a knowledge base.

Marty
--
Marty Nemko, Ph.D. Career and Education Consultant

I responded with: I wouldn't say your article was anathema..More fabricated, ficticious, erroneous. Any of those would suffice.

You're attitude of "give it up" was probably what erked me the most.
"What do you want to be Billy?"
"I wanna be a cartoonist!"
"Oh sorry too popular you'll probably fail" "Why don't you pick something else"
"Um...a rock star or an actor!"
"You'll die of a drug overdose"
"A lawyer?"
"If you like kissing up to your boss"
"Um..um.. an insurance sales man?"
"That's my "realistic boy"

The main thing that angered me about
your article, was how you toted
around opinions as if they were facts. Everyone's life is different.
Some will make their dream job and some won't, but after reading
that..thing. All I got was "You probably won't get your dream job, and
even if you do you won't make any money at it, and you'll be miserable."
"So why even try" No where in the article did it mention
"wanting" to do a specific job or "like" what
you're doing. It just said "Set your expectations low,
and life's a bowl of cherries."

Congratulations with over 2,000 clients. Mcdonald's has served over
millions, with millions more on the way. Doesn't mean their food is
healthy.

Oh and as for my anger. Are you a Doctor? I'm not talking about the 3
extra letters you pissed away your time and money getting, I mean a
medical/REAL doctor. No? Didn't think so.
And please don't pretend to have concern for me.
You don't know me, and I don't know you, nor would I care to.


And finally he repsoned with: This is my last communication. I swear to you that every word was not
"fabricated, fictitious, nor erroneous." It is the distillation of what
I've learned from 18 years of career counseling with 2,000 clients. And my
results are wonderful: I enjoy a 97% client satisfaction rate and the San
Francisco Bay Guardian (on its front cover) just named me "The Bay Area's
Best Career Coach." I say this not to brag, but to encourage you, one last
time, to consider that perhaps, we find comfort among those who agree with
us; growth among those who don't.

And I daresay that if you read some of the articles on my website (free)
that you'll see I have quite a knowledge base.

Marty

[itai195]

He's right about setting realistic goals, but I don't think it's automatically unrealistic to expect an innovative business to succeed, or to try a career in art.

[Spliffdaddy]

What a dork.

"I've got a 97% client satisfaction rate."

To go along with the 1% client success rate?

[UR-20]

Originally posted by itai195:
He's right about setting realistic goals, but I don't think it's automatically unrealistic to expect an innovative business to succeed, or to try a career in art.

Agreed. Just look at Homestarrunner. I read on their site that apparently they (Chap brothers) make all their money on T-shirt and merchandise sales, and so can work at a job they love full time. Seems like they're doing ok in the horrible horrible world of art.

[milkmanchris]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Of course none of us fit that definition of a "superstar", we're all are bunch of dumb, lazy, assholes with no friends.

Yeah but speaking from where I am sat, doing the job of my dreams. Who needs friends, especially in business, they are the ones taking the shoes off your kids feet.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
What a dork.

"I've got a 97% client satisfaction rate."

To go along with the 1% client success rate?

No no, I love how he repeats that line almost word for word in both emails.
You know in case you forgot or something.

[Spliffdaddy]

I have a 100% client satisfaction rating - and I'm telling you the author is world-class moron.

I win.

[milkmanchris]

Long time since i was in school, but is it not the case that all teachers and advisors are doing that for a living because they could not hack it in business ?.

Certainly the case here in the UK.

[Spliffdaddy]

I mean, it makes logical sense.

If you never expose yourself to the possibility of failure - you can never fail. This, I believe, is the definition the author must be using for the word 'success'. Success, by his estimation, is the lack of failure.

The casual observer might never notice that the exposure to the possibility of failure coincides with the exposure to the possibility of success. The same logic of 'non-exposure' applies to success as much as it does to failure. After all, you will never fail if you don't try to succeed.

Therein lies the problem with the author's opinion. He makes no distinction between the odds of failure in any given endeavour. Starting a successful burrito enterprise, by the author's admission, is a no-brainer. Akin to cash in your pocket. Money in the bank. Don't chase that unattainable non-profit dream job! (as if *that* has any chance of failure. sheesh um, hello, anybody can do what they love, lose money doing it, and call it 'non-profit'. I do it all the time).

There is no such thing as job security, by the way. There is, however, a carrot on a stick that sometimes impersonates job security. Don't be fooled.

My advice is to do exactly what you love doing. Make a living as much as is necessary, and have fun as much as possible. Because your sorry asses aren't likely to ever impress me no matter how successful you may be in your business life. Be happier than me and that will get my attention.

[Myrkridia]

Toying with the notion of giving him (Marty) the link to this thread.
What do you all think. Is it worth it?

[ringo]

Originally posted by itai195:
"Do What You Love and You'll Probably Starve"

That is bs. Any career development counselor worth his/her salt will tell you that first and foremost you should do something you enjoy.

Work hard at what you find pleasure in, and be driven by passion for the work and not the potential rewards...The money will follow.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Myrkridia:
Toying with the notion of giving him (Marty) the link to this thread.
What do you all think. Is it worth it?

nah. It's just a bunch of criticism about his opinions. He can prolly get that anywhere.

[soul searching]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
...My advice is to do exactly what you love doing. Make a living as much as is necessary, and have fun as much as possible. Because your sorry asses aren't likely to ever impress me no matter how successful you may be in your business life. Be happier than me and that will get my attention.

[DigitalEl]

is it not the case that all teachers and advisors are doing that for a living because they could not hack it in business

That most definitely is not the case. Many teachers are "doing that" because they have a passion for it, love kids or other noble reasons. In exchange, they get low pay, meager benefits and zero support from most parents these days.

That being said, there are uncaring or just plain "bad" teachers, but there are bad doctors, lawyers, investment bankers... You get it. There are people who suck in every job. Not just in classrooms.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by itai195:
"Do What You Love and You'll Probably Starve"

yup, sounds exactly like what i am doing.

i'm at a point now where i don't even care anymore. life isn't worth working a job that sucks or isn't fun.

we'll see. i've got about 3 weeks left. it's been been a fun ride though.

props to spliffdaddy's post. he's really onto something.

[Spliffdaddy]

But then, I've spent 16 years doing a job I don't particularly care for.

The author would describe that as 'success', lol.

I've got news for that dude.

It's the polar opposite of success.

[macroy]

I first thought I shouldn't form an opinion about this dude until I read a few more of his writings.... so I went to his site :


MISCELLANY

* Marty's first job was as a professional pianist.
* Second job was as a New York City cab driver.
* In his spare time, he breeds roses that needn't be sprayed with fungicides and plays romantic songs on the piano.


What a schmuck.

Oh, and much more self ball-licking on his site - listing ALL his accomplishments...

[Gemini]

Originally posted by UR-20:
Just look at Homestarrunner. I read on their site that apparently they (Chap brothers) make all their money on T-shirt and merchandise sales, and so can work at a job they love full time. Seems like they're doing ok in the horrible horrible world of art.

Clearly they are the exception to the rule.

A lot of what the guy says is right. The problem from my view is that everyone equates success with money in our society. Forget doing something you are passionate about for $20k -- you're not successful unless you're earning at least $40k!

THAT is bs. Do what you love and get enough money to survive. Don't sell your soul for a new Mac.