[DigitalEl]

Anyone think it's kind of dumb that, for the most part, people have to decide what they want to do with the rest of their life when they're in their teens? I can't imagine I'm alone in that my passions at thirtysomething are a total 180 from what I thought I wanted at 18.

To any of you who have gone back to get another degree or an advanced degree to add to your bachelor's...

How easy is it to get accepted into a program if your undergrad GPA wasn't that great? In college, I was a teenage sh!thead. I skipped classes and passed with a 2.something. Now that I know what my passion is, I'd really be into learning. Are my poor undergrad marks gonna hurt me?

Oh... And how'd you pay for it, with the kids and the mortgage and the two cars?

Feel free to comment on anything in this longwinded, rambling post. I'd especially love to hear the perspective of people like Lerkfish & iWrite.

-Feelin' Old at 34

[cal4ever]

This is what I've learned from reading "how to get into law school" books. I don't know how much of this applies to undergrad or other graduate programs. I'm sure it's somewhat similar though.

According to most of the books I've read (and according to the Dean of Admissions who were interviewed in the books), having a poor gpa will only hurt you if you're coming directly from undergrad. However, if you have worked a significant amount of years, and have obviously matured from your undergrad years, most law schools are willing to look pass your weak gpa. You will just have to prove this in your personal statement and recommendations from work.

I'm sure it also depends on which school you're applying to. Many of the people interviewed for the book I read were Admission Deans from top law schools. However, since they are top law schools, I am sure that there are a large amount of applicants who had stellar gpas from their undergrad years AND have a very strong (work) resume. So, it's hard to say.

[mitchell_pgh]

There are many ways around a bad GPA.

1) Get accepted at a crap to middle of the road school and take two semesters of classes and get a great GPA, THEN try to transfer to a real college.

REASON: You will have a strong GPA, a work history and an undergraduate. Much more compelling...



2) Many colleges will let students take classes before being officially enrolled in a program. Basically you just sign up. After you have 3-6 classes under your belt, you apply. They are much more likely to let you in.

REASON: If you bomb out, it's like free money for the university. If you do well, it's MORE free money for the university.



3) Get on your knees and beg the dean to let you in. Ask for an interview/meeting. Ask to meet with the dean of admissions, ask them "How do > I < get in to this school" and listen to what they have to say...

REASON: The dean can let you in or when the applications start coming in... and they remember you, they might let you in.



Other then those three recommendations... you don't have a parent that could donate a building or a famous person in the family do you? (as sad as that sounds, I work for a top top 50 school... it really works that way)

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by cal4ever:
This is what I've learned from reading "how to get into law school" books. I don't know how much of this applies to undergrad or other graduate programs. I'm sure it's somewhat similar though.

According to most of the books I've read (and according to the Dean of Admissions who were interviewed in the books), having a poor gpa will only hurt you if you're coming directly from undergrad. However, if you have worked a significant amount of years, and have obviously matured from your undergrad years, most law schools are willing to look pass your weak gpa. You will just have to prove this in your personal statement and recommendations from work.

I'm sure it also depends on which school you're applying to. Many of the people interviewed for the book I read were Admission Deans from top law schools. However, since they are top law schools, I am sure that there are a large amount of applicants who had stellar gpas from their undergrad years AND have a very strong (work) resume. So, it's hard to say.

Yeah, that sounds like BS to me. Law Schools love to claim that they look at the whole application, but they don't. The first cut is done by LSAT X GPA. Once you make that cut, they look at the rest of the application, but not until them. The sheer volume of applications means they simply can't look at them all. Also, LSAT and entering GPA is part of how US News ranks law schools, so they can't mess with them much. Consequently, it is amazing how all students in a given school have very similar backgrounds.

The LSAT X GPA cut can be mitigated if you have a high enough score on one side to overcome a low one on the other. So if you have a GPA that is a bit below the curve, you can make up for it with a high LSAT, or vice versa. Obviously, there is a limit to how far you can take this.

Another thing to do would be to have a masters degree or Phd (especially in medicine or the sciences) before going to law school. In my opinion, the law school will look at that more than work history. If you do want them to look at work history, do something public interest. Law schools are not going to be impressed that you made a lot of money, but some kind of selfless service will impress them. For example, spending a few years in the military will make you stand out (but again, not until after the first cut).

The other things that can get you in are affirmative action (it's legal now, dontchaknow), coming from some obscure corner of the country which they need someone from for geographic diversity purposes, or having impressive and/or rich parents. It's sad, but that does count.

[wdlove]

Congratulations DigitalEl on making this life changing decision. I'm sure that you will be very successful. What is your career goal?

I don't think that the low undergraduate GPA will hurt. It has been shown that older students are more goal oriented and tend to be better students. An example that you have indicated.

To pay for tuition you could either get a federal loan. If you have some equity in your home, a home equity loan would be your best bet. It would also be tax deductable.

[voyageur]

DigitalEl,
I was just about your age when I went back to grad school in science. I say "back" because I already had done a master's right after my bachelor's degree.

In my case, excellent GRE scores and recommendations from two people who were leaders in the field made up for my so-so undergrad grades, and I was able to get into one of the top programs in the country. However, the expense of time away from my children and money for day care was extreme, and I discontinued my studies after one successful year. A tough decision, but for me the price was too high.

Is your spouse supportive? That will make a huge difference. How old are your kids? Do you have family close by who can help out? Are you going for a Bachelor's or graduate degree? Most grad programs in science are financially supported by grants. If you are going back for another bachelor's there are some colleges which have special programs for older students and offer scholarships. If you're female, look into such programs at Wellesley and Smith Colleges.

Good luck!

[cal4ever]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

The LSAT X GPA cut can be mitigated if you have a high enough score on one side to overcome a low one on the other. So if you have a GPA that is a bit below the curve, you can make up for it with a high LSAT, or vice versa. Obviously, there is a limit to how far you can take this.

I agree with you that most "how to get into law schools" books are full of BS. I'm sure those Admission Deans are just trying to get more people to apply to their schools so they can reject them--thus lowering their school's acceptance rate.

I also agree with what you said about using the LSATs (or another standardized test) to make up for a low gpa. There are obvious limits to this. Keep in mind, also, that most schools are reluctant to accept people with low gpa and high standardized scores. Many schools realize that there are a lot of ways to boost one's standardized scores (taking a class). On the other hand, getting a respectable gpa all 4 years of college is much more difficult. Lastly, many top law schools and many top graduate schools are giving more weight to personal statements and personal hardships stories. Demostrate how you are different from the other applicant. Or, demonstrating how you can bring in a different point of view into the graduate school can also help your chances of getting into that school.

Unfortunately, there is no sure way of how to get in somewhere. If there was, I'd be going to Columbia Law right now Each person has their strenghts and weaknesses. Just highlight your strengths on your applications.

Btw, goodluck!

[cacarr1]

Great thread DigitalEl
I'm in the same boat as you (except I still haven't found my calling)...
Keep us posted on your outcome(s)...
Chris.

[olePigeon]

Don't overlook your community college. Here in California there are study programs you can take that GAURANTEE you admittance to a particular UC or CSU (depending on the program.)

We have one for UC Berkley, UC Santa Cruz, UC Irvine, UC Santa Barbara, CSU San Jose, CSU Sacramento, etc. The UC Berkley program is by far the most popular for obvious reasons.

Only requirement is that you maintain a B average in each of the enrolled classes. But if you had a bad GPA from high school or you haven't taken the SAT, these are great programs to enroll in. Since community colleges don't have prerequisites for enrollment, it's a relatively easy way to get acceptance to a top notch university.

[cal4ever]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Don't overlook your community college. Here in California there are study programs you can take that GAURANTEE you admittance to a particular UC or CSU (depending on the program.)

We have one for UC Berkley, UC Santa Cruz, UC Irvine, UC Santa Barbara, CSU San Jose, CSU Sacramento, etc. The UC Berkley program is by far the most popular for obvious reasons.

Only requirement is that you maintain a B average in each of the enrolled classes. But if you had a bad GPA from high school or you haven't taken the SAT, these are great programs to enroll in. Since community colleges don't have prerequisites for enrollment, it's a relatively easy way to get acceptance to a top notch university.

I have no idea what I didn't think about that. That's a good point, there are a lot of junior colleges that have programs that help you get into the University of California system. However, I don't know if this applies to Digital El, since (from what I understand) he/she is looking at graduate programs. Or am I completely wrong?

Digital El... as for your paying for college:
If you live in the US there are plenty of ways you can pay for college. There are federal (and state) grants and loans that you can help you pay for college. Since you do have dependents, you might be able to qualify for some type of federal grant or loan program. If you make too money much, there are always private educational loans. Hope that helps.

[DigitalEl]

Thanks for your input everybody. Please keep 'em coming.

To clear up one apparent misconception, I definitely haven't decided for sure to go back. It's kind of a long-shot/long-term dream right now. My wife is more likely to go back and get her master's in education first... Which puts my schooling off for a couple of years.

To answer your question, wdlove, I want to go to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and get some sort of degree in Aviation Management... With an eventual goal of doing soft-marketing for an airline.

As for loans, that will be a big factor in all this. I'm still paying for my crappy undergrad degree (in journalism/communications). Funny a private school degree from a place no-one's ever heard of cost 4x as much as a similar degree would've been from Pitt or Penn State; and potential employers have actually heard of (and may respect) those schools.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Don't overlook your community college. Here in California there are study programs you can take that GAURANTEE you admittance to a particular UC or CSU (depending on the program.)

We have one for UC Berkley, UC Santa Cruz, UC Irvine, UC Santa Barbara, CSU San Jose, CSU Sacramento, etc. The UC Berkley program is by far the most popular for obvious reasons.

Only requirement is that you maintain a B average in each of the enrolled classes. But if you had a bad GPA from high school or you haven't taken the SAT, these are great programs to enroll in. Since community colleges don't have prerequisites for enrollment, it's a relatively easy way to get acceptance to a top notch university.

This is very good advice for an undergrad. I transferred to Georgetown from Northern Virginia Community College. Transferring was easy, the freshman level classes were just as good, and it saved me a ton of money ($48/credit hour vs. $600). I'm happy to sing the praises of community colleges from the rooftops.

I'd caution anyone who's considering a community college to look at their own personality. They don't feel like real colleges. It's very easy to not take them seriously and I saw a lot of people drop out for no good reason. But if you can stick it out and get good grades, universities will be happy to take you.

In addition, as cal4ever says, this trick doesn't work for grad school.

By the way Digital El. I started college when I was 28. I say go for it!