[Kosmo]

Today is 'Day 23' in the life of OS X. Emotions have been running high now for much longer than that... people still flood these forums with anti-OS X sentiment...but to what end?

If you still haven't learned that OS X is 100 times better than OS 9, if you still haven't began to feel comfortable with it....then can I ask a simple question?

Why are you still using it?

I'm serious here. Why do you still find it important to come to these forums every day and bash OS X? Don't you think you've gotten your point across yet? You have you know..You've made your point...

We, the people that love OS X and feel comfortable with it and use it everyday as our Primary OS, get it...You don't like it. Check. Next?

What I love about these forums, especially OS X General Discussion, is that I come here and read a lot of interesting posts. I learn a lot from intelligent posts. Even today, as I debated with Terri and applenut, I learned that I could live without Window Shade...That's a positive thing for me...For this exchange I say 'Thanks!'...

These forums can be incredibly useful for everyone if we stay focused on the 'migration' to OS X. If we can come here and say, "This is what I did in OS 9. I am interested in knowing if there is an OS X way that I need to know about." Chances are someone has the answer you need.

What I don't need to see if the constant OS X Bashing that continues..and since I don't use any other platform but Mac I don't think I need to know how Windows.xx does things...I just don't care, ya know?

Do you think it's possible to set up some ground rules here? Is it possible that you naysayers could just stop posting your bashings and your pro-windows posts? Let me say this again. "We know you don't like it"...Next.

Chances are new people are coming to MacNN boards everyday in search of OS X feedback. Your negative posts could influence people to not take the plunge and stay away from OS X. And this would be counter-productive to us and to Apple. So why do it?

And I make a plea to Scott and Gorgonzola: Can you please limit posts to only 'Registered' users? It only takes a couple of minutes to register and I see a lot of negative posts by unregistered people. What good does this serve the community?

We are quickly becoming 2 camps here. One camp, the one I belong to, are actively migrating to OS X and are making postive posts and trying to help others migrate over. The other camp just come here to bash OS X whenever they can or brag about Windows or BeOS...to what end?

I'm not saying we can't discuss the things we would like to see fixed or a feature we'd like to see added to OS X, but the rude bashing serves no one except the person posting it.


Thoughts?



------------------

[bitfly]

Ok, ok. You have come full circle and you NOW like OSX. We get it!!!

Can you please STOP starting threads telling people that they are not allowed to have an opinion different then yours.

I don't have to like OSX if I don't want to and all the bitching about the Beta caused Apple to make some very good changes!

Give it up Kosmo!

[Kosmo]

Bitfly,

Where in my post did I say you couldn't have an opinion different than mine?? Did you read my post?

Jesus, you sound like a polictical liberal. You hear what you want to hear, see what you wanna see, but I didn't say what you may have thought I said. Terri and Applenut do NOT share my views yet I posted in the above post that I LEARNED something from our recent exchange....how does that relate to what you just accused me of???


Why don't you tell me why it's productive to continue to bash OSX...


------------------

[Colonel Panic]

i love X. there's a lot of bitching in here, true, but I think for the most part people are validly expressing frustrations at aspects of X they are unhappy with and quite frankly in most cases SHOULD be unhappy with, X's great progress notwithstanding. it's not like 9.1 or Win2K lovers are trolling through here just to trash X. That'd be annoying. Try ArsTechnica if you want to see that kind of trolling.
Here, people bitch, some points are valid, some are silly, some are really nit-picky because they seem to pick out the most minor interface element and kinda whine, despite the rest of the great stuff in X, but either way on net I think decent points are made.
I DO care how Windows stacks up to X. It helps highlight X's weaknesses.
Better some frustrations and bitching than an X love-fest, I say. A little cynicism can help if it prompts good feedback to apple.

[nigeljedi]

If you still haven't learned that OS X is 100 times better than OS 9, if you still haven't began to feel comfortable with it....then can I ask a simple question?

Why are you still using it?

Answer: I can't get on the 'net in X. Pretty simple. Otherwise, I'd be on X pretty much all the time.

------------------

[unimacs]

I find myself generally defending OS X quite a bit in these forums.

I'm sometimes frustrated because I think any significant change Apple would have made to the UI would have drawn complaints. There are tons of posts about how Apple #@#$$ up the UI while the posters ignore or gloss over serious problems in OS 9's UI that OS X managed to fix.

Having said that, I like the debate. I like to kid myself that maybe something I posted may have actually caused somebody to rethink a few things (probably not, but I still like to think so).

As far as posts from Windows advocates goes, I think its useful to know what's good about XP and 2000 relative to the Mac. It's hard to be very convincing when trying to explain why I choose to use a Mac if I don't have any knowledge of Windows.

There is a difference between discussion and bashing. I don't know how to allow one and prevent the other.

Maybe we just need a separate forum.

[Angus_D]

It's just annoying that people still see fit to post topics about how slow and lame OS X is, without being objective about it.

[danbrew]

I don't think we're doing the Mac community any favors if we simply post positive positives reviews of Mac OS X. There are plenty of people out there who weren't impressed, and who don't use the OS. Why should we hide these failings from newcomers that may come here searching for information?

I eagerly awaited OS X and installed it on my Cube and knew within 10 minutes after install that is wasn't going to be all that Apple touted it as. Bummer. And I was vocal about it and got hate mail and slammed here on the forums. Bummer.

Well, 23 days out and the product still blows. We can sing praises to Apple when it gets better.

And, yes, I'm a Windows bigot. But I'm also a Mac geek with 6,000$USD worth of Macs. And while I have to be honest and say that I bought them for the coolness factor, and 9.x, OS X briefly factored into the equation.

Oh yeah, I'll also bet that I began using a Mac before most of you -- wouldn't it be cool to have a contest to indicate the purchase date of your first Mac? I bought a Mac 128k for $3000 (dang!) back in the summer of 85. So that means that I've dumped at least $9000 into Apple.

But OS X still blows.

[bitfly]

Originally posted by Kosmo:
Bitfly,

Where in my post did I say you couldn't have an opinion different than mine?? Did you read my post?
Why don't you tell me why it's productive to continue to bash OSX...

Kosmo, you imply in your post that you are tired of negative posts about X. That means that you don't want to hear opinions different then your own.
Actually you refer to it as "Bitching".

I DO think it is good to complain about OSX. Mac users are notorious for loving whatever garbage Apple gives us.

Bitching DOES help, the original iMac was going to ship with a 33.6 modem, people complained up a storm. People bitched about the price of the cube's price. As a Cube lover this was hard for me to hear but it helped, as the cube is now cheap.

As I said, people bitched up a storm about the public Beta of OSX and THANK THE LORD THEY DID! The improvements to the UI since the beta are awesome.

If we complain enough about the annoying bugs and very slow speed and compatibility of OSX Apple might realize that a very high majority DO NOT like what Apple has given us is OSX and should make some much needed improvements.
The fact that people complain is a GOOD thing as it shows that they do like OSX and they really want it to succeed. I am one of those people that think OSX is a very good start but Apple has really got to clean some of the mess up and posting ideas on this thread and then submitting them to Apple will hopefully help in the end.

Bitch on!

[Colonel Panic]

um, OK. reading some of these, some trolling, maybe. but not bitfly. good feedback, bitfly.



[This message has been edited by Colonel Panic (edited 04-16-2001).]

[Kosmo]

Nigel, I just tried to reply to a post of yours in another thread and clicked the wrong button in IE and poof there went the reply...

From my TiBook to the net it goes like this: Tibook connected with an Airport. Airport connected to the Base Station..the Base Stations connected the Ethernet Hub, the Ethernet hubs connected to the Ugate, the Ugate's connected to the Cable Modem and world spins around and around..or some such thing....anyway, if I can connect to thenet using this strange set up, I would love to know what's stopping you? Especially since you can connect using OS 9..

Help me out here. Tell me where the trouble is, I would love to know in case I run across this with a client...

As to the others above...debate is good, bashing is bad...I KNOW there is a way to debate without bashing...it's called discussing with a touch of 'class'...

Debate: You know, I have no trouble doing (fill in the blank) when I'm using (fill in the blank) but when I try to do it in OS X I can't make it happen...what is the problem?

Bashing: I CAN TO THIS ON (FILL IN THE BLANK) BUT I CAN'T WHEN I'M USING OS X. OS X SUCKS AND APPLE SUCKS AND STEVE JOBS IS A F**KHEAD AND .......

Can't you tell the difference??

------------------

[xenu]

It is obvious that a number of prolific posters here simply should not have purchased OS X.

Having made the mistake, they now blame Apple for a product they were told was not for "mainstream" computer users.

They will continue to bitch until July.

Others hated OS X even before it was released. They will never like it.

[bitfly]

Originally posted by Kosmo:
Bitfly,

Where in my post did I say you couldn't have an opinion different than mine?? Did you read my post?
Why don't you tell me why it's productive to continue to bash OSX...

Kosmo, you imply in your post that you are tired of negative posts about X. That means that you don't want to hear opinions different then your own.
Actually you refer to it as "Bitching".

I DO think it is good to complain about OSX. Mac users are notorious for loving whatever garbage Apple gives us.

Bitching DOES help, the original iMac was going to ship with a 33.6 modem, people complained up a storm. People bitched about the price of the cube's price. As a Cube lover this was hard for me to hear but it helped, as the cube is now cheap.

As I said, people bitched up a storm about the public Beta of OSX and THANK THE LORD THEY DID! The improvements to the UI since the beta are awesome.

If we complain enough about the annoying bugs and very slow speed and compatibility of OSX Apple might realize that a very high majority DO NOT like what Apple has given us is OSX and should make some much needed improvements.
The fact that people complain is a GOOD thing as it shows that they do like OSX and they really want it to succeed. I am one of those people that think OSX is a very good start but Apple has really got to clean some of the mess up and posting ideas on this thread and then submitting them to Apple will hopefully help in the end.

Bitch on!

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

I lurk on this forum often, and I just had to add something to this thread...

I'm getting sick of people bitching about other people's opinions. Really, I am. Someone points out a flaw in OS X, and inevitably some Apple apologist chews them out for being cynical, negative, and unfaithful. You know what I'm talking about. It wreaks of the thought police and I'm getting sick of it.

If OS X is good enough to stand on it's own, then it needs no apologists. If not, then no amount of apologizing will make it succeed. I'm getting worried about OS X, not because of the detractors, but because of the defenders. The defenders have this zealous obsessiveness that suggests they are insecure about the product they shower with praise. If the one's who like it most lack confidence, then we are in trouble.

[nigeljedi]

Kosmo, I emailed you with the particulars, since it didn't really fit here...


------------------

[xenu]

I don't believe those exposing genuine flaws are the problem.

There are a few "hard core" posters who simply cannot accept that they should not have purchased this product.

All they do is moan and bitch, and blame Apple for all their problems.
Sorry, but they are the problem.

OS X will stand on its own. No one is apologising for it. Those who defend it are obviously very happy with what they a have. If they can show FUD for what it is, then they should.

A number of people have genuine probems. That happens with a new OS. Feedback to Apple will ensure they know about them, so they can fix those problems.

The rest will continue to complain that they cannot use window shade or labels. Well bo-ho. They now have an OS with the power and stability of Unix, and they complain about labels.

I use Linux at the moment. I have a terminal open with my files listed and colour coded. I assume that something similar exists in OS X - for me the file is /etc/DIR_COLORS.

If labels are important, then they should use OS 9 until OS X incorporates them. It really is that simple.

[Kosmo]

Nigel, just tried to email you some update stuff...I exceeded you mail box limit..I'm trying again...


If you have an IP address I could connect to your machine and give you the updates...



------------------

[booboo]

I can cope completely with the fact that there are missing features - lie DVD, spring loaded folders, customizable apple Menu, whatever, I'm not bitching about these. They'll come in time, either from Apple or 3rd parties... Pro Noblem

But if OS-X were snappy, and they hadn't 'fixed' things that weren't broke (like moving the window widgets and altering the basic GUI premise of the Mac OS - that things stay where you put them..) then there'd be no bitching AT ALL!

[This message has been edited by booboo (edited 04-17-2001).]

[edddeduck]

How about this forum for debate and .... www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

For bitching Its easy type what you think is wrong select the area which is wrong your machine and post...

: D

Kosmo has point there is a difference between debate about features and I HAVE OSX FOR 20 DAYS AND ITS STILL SLOW WHERES THE FRICKIN UPDATE I LOVE XP etc etc.....

Together we stand divided we fall........



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--
I Took The Red Pill

[King Kong]

how slow and lame OS X is, without being objective about it.

How about this: Compared to Mac OS 8, MacOS 9, BeOS, Linux, Windows 98, Windows 2000, MacOS X on a similar class machine is objectively slower at doing the tasks I do every day like scroll through documents, resize web pages, and manage finder files. Is that better?

Yes I am joking. Listen, the speed is a problem, we all know about it and are tired of hearing about it, but if we don't vent Apple will not concentrate on speed and will just wait around for us to buy faster machines.

[Rando]

For people that say (or nearly say) the following:

"Having made the mistake, they now blame Apple for a product they were told was not for "mainstream" computer users."

Where on the BOX for X does it say this? If I were a consumer and purchased this product off the shelf, where's the disclaimer saying "Not intended for mainstream users"?

According to the box, as long as a user has a "Power Mac G3, G4, G4 Cube; iMac; PowerBook G3, G4; or iBook computer" and "128MB of physical RAM" and follows the disclaimer of "Original PowerBook G3 and processor upgrade cards not supported, CD-RW, DVD-R, and DVD-ROM drives not fully supported", all other core functionality advertised should be present and operational.

The bottom line is that it's a final release and it has problems. People have a right to complain about 'em if it doesn't work as intended or advertised.

[osiris]

We have a right to bitch all we want - it's been years in the making, years in the waiting, and we have an OS that runs a great deal less slower than it's predecessor. I'm not bailing ship here - the 10.01 update helped a bit - it just all needs to be about 10 times faster. Apple will do it, but I just hope someone there is scoping these boards so somehow, someway, Steve knows what we think and anticipate.

[xenu]

Jesus, do you people have any reading or listening comprehension?

Apple has all but written to you personally telling you that this release was for developers and early adopters. How many ways can you be told that a final release, on the shelf product, is not the same thing as a developers release?

How often does this have to be repeated?

The bottom line is that a few people here should not have purchased this product. Now they have, they blame Apple for their mistake.



[This message has been edited by xenu (edited 04-16-2001).]

[typoon]

I am in the camp that likes OS X. I use it as my primary work OS. I know that this has been in the Making for the last ten years actually it hasn't. I'd say the last 3 if not 4 years. We heard Apple say that they were going to come out with this new OS called Copland and that went down the tubes. They spent countless millions on it and produced nothing. When they brought Back Steve Jobs I was one who thought how great it would be to include the NeXT OS into the Mac OS because I had heard so many good things about NeXT. OS 8.0 was new and 8.5 added some more features. and 9 and 9.1 added even more things to make our lives easier and the way we know it today. OS X is supposed to bring us to the future. I don't mind the bitching about OS X. Most of it should be directed at Apple and there feedback page. I love OS X and see it's great potential but right now I also remind myself that it's slowness and feature incompleteness is due to it being v.1.0 Most people seem to forget that. I can't think of one version 1 of anything that was feature complete or didn't have it's share of bugs. Let Apple know! Let them know what you would like to see and what you love about OS X. Steve tells us Apple is listening we should send them our feedback and see how much they are listening. I have been Happy with every Apple purchase I have ever made. That is the only thing I seem to have good luck in. Apple has not let me down yet in many things, There are a few but this is not the post for that. I got excited when Mac OS 8 came out because it was going to be a new way to do things, I was excited when 9 came out because it again added things and was something Somewhat new. OS X is something completely different. And I have been excited since they Brought back Steve to Apple. Since the iMac, the G4, The G3 PowerBooks and now the Ti Powerbooks. I have been excited about all of that. I have been most excited of all about OS X, to me for it to be what it is at version 1.0 is amazing. Yes OS X has it's problems , we should allow every to have there say and let other know how they feel about this new step into the future. Give your feedback to Apple and let this new baby grow and mature. Opensource is also helping OS X to become something Windows can only aspire to be. Let's have a free exchange of ideas but also defend the good points of OS X. People ask me how I would grade it. I give it anywhere from a B- to C+ . OS X is definately not for everyone yet. I think in July many of our issues will be addressed. Even then there will be complainers. Not everyone is ever going to be satisfied. I think by the time the dust settles with OS X it will be the greatest creation since the Mac itself.
Just my 0.02 cents

[edddeduck]

A repeat earlier post in part...

How about this forum for debate and .... www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/ FOR BITCHING...

Stop bitching to us we know and have sent feedback we don't need to be told APPLE DO........ sheesh..

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--
I Took The Red Pill

[plaidpjs]

Originally posted by bitfly:
Kosmo, you imply in your post that you are tired of negative posts about X. That means that you don't want to hear opinions different then your own.
Actually you refer to it as "Bitching".

I DO think it is good to complain about OSX. Mac users are notorious for loving whatever garbage Apple gives us.

Bitching DOES help, the original iMac was going to ship with a 33.6 modem, people complained up a storm. People bitched about the price of the cube's price. As a Cube lover this was hard for me to hear but it helped, as the cube is now cheap.

As I said, people bitched up a storm about the public Beta of OSX and THANK THE LORD THEY DID! The improvements to the UI since the beta are awesome.

If we complain enough about the annoying bugs and very slow speed and compatibility of OSX Apple might realize that a very high majority DO NOT like what Apple has given us is OSX and should make some much needed improvements.
The fact that people complain is a GOOD thing as it shows that they do like OSX and they really want it to succeed. I am one of those people that think OSX is a very good start but Apple has really got to clean some of the mess up and posting ideas on this thread and then submitting them to Apple will hopefully help in the end.

Bitch on!

FIRST, complaint, if constructive, is good.

SECOND, don't get delusional, butfly, you who hate X are no where near being a "high majority". Even in these forums where you all are so vocal, you are still not the majority.



------------------
G4/500 DP, 768 MB RAM, 40GB HDD, 32MB ATI Radeon OEM, 30GB VST Firewire Drive, and an Apple Cinema Display

[osiris]

Geez, It looks like plaidpjs AND kosmo are Mac fascists! Free speech baby, love it. It promotes thinking and change for the good.

[ratfink]

Originally posted by xenu:
Jesus, do you people have any reading or listening comprehension?

Apple has all but written to you personally telling you that this release was for developers and early adopters. How many ways can you be told that a final release, on the shelf product, is not the same thing as a developers release?

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but OS10 _is_ a final release, on the shelf product, not a developers release.

Geof

------------------
"I can see the future, and it's a place about seventy miles east of here."

Right OSIRIS, you think you have free speech in the US right? right

[BRussell]

What bothers us "defenders" is the content of the criticism, and what that content reveals about people's view of the OS. We feel that:

1. Much of people's criticism represents nostalgia for OS 9 and lower, rather than a concern for improvement. For example, the dock, while not without its problems, is objectively more logical than Application switcher + Apple menu + Windowshade + Control strip. When people complain that they want the Apple menu back, it's just hard to take the criticism seriously.

2. People focus on more superficial issues, at the expense of the underlying OS. Apple REALLY, REALLY got the core of the OS right. The entire OS used to be proprietary, but now so much of it is based on open standards: Unix, TCP/IP, Java, pdf. Kosmo and I et al. would like spring-loaded folders, too, but when there is so much long-term value in those core OS features, it's hard to see the relative importance of spring-loaded folders.

3. This is the first release - so much will improve. This is an OS to set the foundation for the future, not a minor update like an OS 8 or 9. Apple, or a third-party, WILL include spring-loaded folders, DVD and CDRW support, etc., etc. Probably very soon. Who knows why they didn't get it done in time - they're not as rich as MS, and maybe they just don't have the armies of programmers MS has.

(PS: Kosmo, I was with you until you started talking about "political liberals." )

[Lord Kronos]

Let me be blunt: I love Mac OS X, but it's too slow, that's a fact, and I don't like Aqua that much anymore. I want a very simple, very fast, mac-like GUI, which doesn't look like Platinum/OS 9 of course.

------------------
"Ein kleiner Mensch stirbt - nur zum Schein"

[Terri]

I feel like my Mac has gotten a lot more like windows. I never liked the windows task bar. I have some clients that use the action go bar under 9. I never liked that either. Now with 10 I've got the dock. Windows task bar meets the Mac. I just wish I could turn it off. I put it on the right side of my screen, who knows if Apple will support this, and it makes a nice app switcher, but I don't care for all the other stuff that it does.

------------------
Terri Zamore

[This message has been edited by Terri (edited 04-16-2001).]

[danbrew]

I will pay $1000 to anyone who can show me where on the OS X box that is says the release is a "developers" release, or that is it "not ready for prime time."

Apple marketed and sold this product as "da bomb" and, well, it is. Just not the way they thought it would be. Kind of reminds me of the old joke: "You know Apple had it right when the said that if they exposed children to computers in school that the kids would use computers when they grew up. Too bad none of them are using Macs!!"

Tell me you won't smile at that...

$1000 offer really stands.

[Synotic]

Originally posted by nigeljedi:

If you still haven't learned that OS X is 100 times better than OS 9, if you still haven't began to feel comfortable with it....then can I ask a simple question?

Why are you still using it?

Answer: I can't get on the 'net in X. Pretty simple. Otherwise, I'd be on X pretty much all the time.

You're reading backwards. Just read that over a few times and you'll see what he really said.

[limbotron]

Much of people's criticism represents nostalgia for OS 9

I disagree. I feel much of the criticism represents people with investments of time, money, and skill who feel the OS X HI/UI unecessarily limits their options and arbitrarily forces new behaviors. (The finder's command n for new window is a tiny example of this arrogance. I've been using OS X for a year now and I still have to stop every time I make a folder to think about what OS I am in... it's the little things that annoy. They add up.)

For example, the dock, while not without its problems, is objectively more logical than Application switcher + Apple menu + Windowshade + Control strip.

It is objectively more logical to you maybe. I find the dock is a lousy application switcher/launcher/windowshade/control strip. It would have been almost trivial for apple to include an option to choose between minimizing or windowshading... but that option isn't there. In fact the options we have are few and far between. Apple needs to consider it's own think different mantra. BTW I've mainly switched over to drag thing/space (thank god for both of them).

When people complain that they want the Apple menu back, it's just hard to take the criticism seriously.

It is back.

People focus on more superficial issues, at the expense of the underlying OS.

I would argue that you can have the most perfect kernel in the world, but if your window resizes are jerky nobody is going to notice. Apple spent lots of effort on the "superficial" in creating Aqua. Unfortunately they fired most of their HI engineers and forgot that their OS is meant to be used not just admired. OS X is full of HI disasters (don't get me started) and hard coded choices that will always annoy a good portion of its base (why do you think there are so many people here trying to figure out how to turn of anti-aliasing, or to get rid of stripes, or God forbid, change the finder font).

Kosmo and I et al. would like spring-loaded folders, too, but when there is so much long-term value in those core OS features, it's hard to see the relative importance of spring-loaded folders.

Maybe true, but people don't interact with the core os. They interact with the finder and the dock and sherlock and whatever particular apps they have on their machines. Each of these core apps has serious problems (to be fair Sherlock also had terrible problems in 9) and there were some very bad choices made re the HI/UI (no keyboard control in font panels, no resizing of finder columns, not switching over to outline resizing on slow machines for example), seemingly without regard for actual user experience.

This is the first release - so much will improve. This is an OS to set the foundation for the future, not a minor update like an OS 8 or 9. Apple, or a third-party, WILL include spring-loaded folders, DVD and CDRW support, etc., etc. Probably very soon. Who knows why they didn't get it done in time - they're not as rich as MS, and maybe they just don't have the armies of programmers MS has.

Here we sort of agree. I think it is precisely because the mac community has been so vocal that Apple will be forced to improve. There is no way in hell that they could preinstall this OS on machines in it's current state. They must improve because steve has bet the company. I see this as a good thing. Apple has about three years of cash on it's hands. Let's hope they use it wisely.

[BRussell]

It's false to say that Apple marketed OS X as da bomb. The fact is, they didn't market it at all. Their most important software release in over 15 years, and it just sits on their web page, in rotation with the TiBook and the PowerMacs. Clearly, they're not marketing it to mass audiences.

And, it does say "not ready for primetime" on the box. Look very carefully at the TextEdit document in the dock on the back of the box.

I want my $1000.

[xenu]

ratfink, exactly. Apple knew that to please developers it had to have a copy on the shelves. OS X 10.0 is it. Another developer release would not satisfy them. That is why you have this version.

danbrew, it's obvious that you have been away for the past 6 months. If you had kept up to date with what Apple was saying you would know it was primarily for developers and those who enjoy early releases.

If you purchased OS X 10.0 believing anything else, tough.

[wadesworld]

If you still haven't learned that OS X is 100 times better than OS 9, if you still haven't began to feel comfortable with it....then can I ask a simple question?

Why are you still using it?

Kosmo,

Simple answer: they're not using it.

They installed it, clicked around for a few hours and then headed to osx.macnn.com forums to whine about how their spring-loaded folders are gone.

Maybe some even boot back into for an hour or so every few days. But, they get frustrated because they don't have an Apple menu, and they boot back to OS 9, then head to the forums and whine some more.

Meanwhile, those of us who are using it day and day out just continue to love it more and more, despite its flaws. We become more and more productive, while they sit in OS 9, posting on the forums about how useless OS X is.

Wade

[AppleNut]

Let me be blunt: I love Mac OS X, but it's too slow, that's a fact, and I don't like Aqua that much anymore. I want a very simple, very fast, mac-like GUI, which doesn't look like Platinum/OS 9 of course.

you mean like the Rhapsody interface? Yes, that was nice and fast. and combined the best features of the Mac UI with the NeXTStep UI.


No comments for Kosmo this time. I already can't stand him. Don't want this to turn into a flame war.

[wadesworld]

If you still haven't learned that OS X is 100 times better than OS 9, if you still haven't began to feel comfortable with it....then can I ask a simple question?

Why are you still using it?

Kosmo,

Simple answer: they're not using it.

They installed it, clicked around for a few hours and then headed to osx.macnn.com forums to whine about how their spring-loaded folders are gone.

Maybe some even boot back into for an hour or so every few days. But, they get frustrated because they don't have an Apple menu, and they boot back to OS 9, then head to the forums and whine some more.

Meanwhile, those of us who are using it day and day out just continue to love it more and more, despite its flaws. We become more and more productive, while they sit in OS 9, posting on the forums about how useless OS X is.

Wade

[wadesworld]

If you still haven't learned that OS X is 100 times better than OS 9, if you still haven't began to feel comfortable with it....then can I ask a simple question?

Why are you still using it?

Kosmo,

Simple answer: they're not using it.

They installed it, clicked around for a few hours and then headed to osx.macnn.com forums to whine about how their spring-loaded folders are gone.

Maybe some even boot back into for an hour or so every few days. But, they get frustrated because they don't have an Apple menu, and they boot back to OS 9, then head to the forums and whine some more.

Meanwhile, those of us who are using it day and day out just continue to love it more and more, despite its flaws. We become more and more productive, while they sit in OS 9, posting on the forums about how useless OS X is.

Wade

[BRussell]

the OS X HI/UI unecessarily limits their options and arbitrarily forces new behaviors.

I'll agree with you, when it is totally arbitrary, as in the Command-N example you cite. But that is a pretty tiny example, as you admit. I don't think most of the choices they made are arbitrary - they serve a purpose. You say the dock is lousy compared to the App Switcher + Window Shade + Control Strip + Apple Menu, but the only reason you give is windowshading, which leaves long thin rectangles on your screen, as opposed to a miniature of the window itself. The dock is not just more logical in my opinion. In OS9, you open up a program under the Apple (oh yeah, unless it's a control strip mod, in which case it's in a different place, under a triangle), but you switch between them on the other side of the screen, under a smiley face. It is less logical than keeping all those things in one place. Of course, no one can argue with "I just don't like it."

Perhaps "nostalgia" is too harsh a term, but I believe changes like the dock are improvements that, although they'll take some time in adjustment, provide efficiency benefits in the long run, and new users a quicker start.

It is back.

Yeah, but people still complain that they want to customize it, when the dock is right there, much easier to customize.

I would argue that you can have the most perfect kernel in the world, but if your window resizes are jerky nobody is going to notice.

That's exactly what is frustrating. Which is more important? Especially for computer geeks like us who read message boards - you'd think we'd appreciate a good kernel, if anyone would. IMO, this OS release is about those underlying issues, which are now solidly in place. These other issues will improve over time, something the guts of the old OS couldn't do.

[fmalloy]

Originally posted by wadesworld:
We become more and more productive, while they sit in OS 9, posting on the forums about how useless OS X is.

You may be productive, but there's a lot of folks with CD burners, scanners, digital cameras, and serial printers that aren't very productive.

I'm on the fence - I love X so far but I only ask two things:

1. Make it faster
2. Make it work with my serial printer, scanner, CD-R, and digital camera

then I'll be very happy...

[cschmelz]

Originally posted by Kosmo:
Today is 'Day 23' in the life of OS X. Emotions have been running high now for much longer than that... people still flood these forums with anti-OS X sentiment...but to what end?

I LOVE X SO MUCH!

I am using a new G4/533DP machine, and X makes it SO amazing!

I am running RC5 cracking client with a high priority (5) while browsing and listening to Massinova over the net and running my mail client in the background...The Xload indicators (and the process manager) all show I am kicking ass! Basically, I can watch 100% of both processors being utilized by the system..

Looking closer at the Process Manager, we see that MacOS X moves system resources from process to process as needed EXTREMELY smoothly.. No matter WHAT I do, Audion doesn't miss a single beat, nor does Omniweb or Mail.App..Amazing!

Try that in OS 9 and see what happens. It especially illustrates how great the multiprocessor support really is! I'm just happy I was able to double the power of my machine for less than $300 (cost to go from single to double processor 533 currently!)

Can't wait for more updates from Apple (10.0.1 makes my Pismo work pretty well on X) and more apps!

[Hey! Who stole my name?!]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by limbotron:
[b] (The finder's command n for new window is a tiny example of this arrogance.

How's this for easy: Turn on Speech Commands & say "New Folder"
BAM! A new folder is made.

It is objectively more logical to you maybe. I find the dock is a lousy application switcher/launcher/windowshade/control strip.

If you keep the System Preferences App open all of the time all you need to do is go to it using Command+Tab. BAM! all of your system options are ready for you perusal. I think though that a good idea might be to make the Sys Prefs icon in the dock the replacement for the control strip.


It would have been almost trivial for apple to include an option
to choose between minimizing or windowshading... but that option isn't there.[b/]

From a display model standpoint, I tink that the windowshade option should only be a seperate optional install when the OS is installed. Later, if the customer wishes to have that feature, Software Update could allow the feature to be installed same goes for other features that are detrimental to display purposes like using Witsworks font as the system font for instance, that option should at least be password locked to keep the display machines free of such atrocities�from a Display model standpoint.

In fact the options we have are few and far between. Apple needs
to consider it's own think different mantra. BTW I've mainly switched over to drag thing/space (thank god for both of them).

Yep, when it comes to choices, there is no better OS for the future than OSX. the share ware community & Unix community will see OSX as new ground to be conqured. For the future�

I would argue that you can have the most perfect kernel in the world, but if your window resizes are jerky nobody is going to notice.

I would argue that Apple purposely decided to wait to fix the slow refresh rate of Aqua to make nVidia & others see that they are going to have a substantial market to exploit in the future: Macs. Think about it. What was the #1 complaint about Macs other thatn the price before OSX came along? -Low-Power Graphics Cards.

Apple spent lots of effort on the "superficial" in creating Aqua.
Unfortunately they fired most of their HI engineers and forgot that their OS is meant to be used not just admired.

I disagree here too. Apple has said from the beginning that this is a new OS. Get anyone that has NEVER used a Mac in front of OSX & I think that they would be just fine finding things.; Just because you are used to driving a stick shift, that doesnt make my motorcycle any crappier than your pick-up truck, we can still shift the damn things into gear. AND you get used to shifting with your heel on a motorcycle. (and it is very productive)

OS X is full of HI disasters (don't get me started) and hard
coded choices that will always annoy a good portion of its base (why do you think there are so many people here trying to figure out how to turn of anti-aliasing, or to get rid of stripes, or God forbid, change the finder font).


The point of OSX is that it is stable enough to change the fundamental parts without making the entire machine hang.
Just because these options do not exist NOW does'nt mean they they will NEVER exist.


Kosmo and I et al. would like spring-loaded folders, too, but when there is so much long-term value in those core OS features, it's hard to see the relative importance of spring-loaded folders.

Maybe true, but people don't interact with the core os. They interact with the finder and the dock and sherlock and whatever particular apps they have on their machines. Each of these core apps has serious problems (to be fair Sherlock also had terrible problems in 9) and there were some very bad choices made re the HI/UI (no keyboard control in font panels, no resizing of finder columns, not switching over to outline resizing on slow machines for example), seemingly without regard for actual user experience.

I know, all these years with OSX & they STILL havent made it run on my Quadra. Dude, get real with that stuff. It is just like bitching about not being able to transport from place to place like on Star Trek.
All your features will come with time my friend.
By the way check out the finder windows again, you'll see that much has improved over the Beta of this OS. Does that give you some hope for July?

This is the first release - so much will improve. Apple has about three years of cash on it's hands."

"Let's hope they use it wisely."

"Amen"

[Zadian]

Originally posted by osiris:
Geez, It looks like plaidpjs AND kosmo are Mac fascists! Free speech baby, love it. It promotes thinking and change for the good.

No, sometimes it changes for the bad. Think about the newbies, the PC Users and those Mac OS users who never used Mac OS X.
Thy read complains about nearly everything in OS X and start to think Mac OS X isn't a good OS. They will never use it, they will switch to Windows and in the long run Apple would die.

As a result those users who like Mac OS X will have to start posting things about how good Mac OS X is. Just to let newbies and other users know that Mac OS X isn't that bad.
An action will cause a reaction.

If you actually want to change something to the better - give Apple feedback. Information is useless if it doesn't reache the ones who can change something.

[JB72]

Is the sam e Kosmo that whined like a baby when he couldn't upgrade to 10.01?

[ddregs]

Originally posted by danbrew:

I eagerly awaited OS X and installed it on my Cube and knew within 10 minutes after install that is wasn't going to be all that Apple touted it as. Bummer. And I was vocal about it and got hate mail and slammed here on the forums. Bummer.

I eagerly waited for and bought U2's last record and after 1 minutes of listening to it I knew it wasn't the return to their glorious past as they touted all the way.

But it's still selling a lot and people don't complain about that. Why???

Got the comparison?

Well, 23 days out and the product still blows. We can sing praises to Apple when it gets better.

It's 23 days out and Apple recognized it's work in progress. They also released a minor fix upgrade in 23 days. And the upgrade wasn't 76MB in size as Windows Service Pack. I even downloaded it via modem!!! Better technology or less bugs? Got the comparison?

And, yes, I'm a Windows bigot. But I'm also a Mac geek with 6,000$USD worth of Macs. And while I have to be honest and say that I bought them for the coolness factor, and 9.x, OS X briefly factored into the equation.

Oh yeah, I'll also bet that I began using a Mac before most of you -- wouldn't it be cool to have a contest to indicate the purchase date of your first Mac? I bought a Mac 128k for $3000 (dang!) back in the summer of 85. So that means that I've dumped at least $9000 into Apple.

But OS X still blows.

I bought my first 128K back when it was introduced in Italy. Saw it and fell in love with it. I was 13 and my daddy spent a huge effort of money into what became my work. I thank my daddy. And now I'm able to judge what I like and what I don't.
I like OS X. I recognize it has some major improvement to do from Apple. If Apple hadn't got some of the best technologies it would have died long ago. What's good is we have an alternative to Microsoft's own OS. And it's still easy to use and great-looking. And it promises to crash less. It is indeed slower now. It's still work in progress. In a year we all know if the promise was fulfilled or not. After 23 days I only see some progress and I'm glad about that.
Marketing will decide the fate of XP and OS X. XP will have the best marketing company behind its shoulders. After all, they succeeded to install a HUGE parchment of Win95 base, and we all know how much Win95 sucks.
If they win, we all will learn to program in proprietary C# and discard Java, install proprietary ASP and discard PHP and other solutions, install proprietary mail system Exchange and discard any other, install proprietary Office and everything else proprietary. Next connection to Internet computer will send its internal memory signatures and Microsoft will track my data into their SQL 2000 Server.

I know it won't mean nothing, because their proprietary server will crash.

Regards!

------------------
Classic Van Halen - soon on your screen...

[Buzz Lightbeer]

Originally posted by ddregs:
If they win, we all will learn to program in proprietary C# and discard Java, install proprietary ASP and discard PHP and other solutions, install proprietary mail system Exchange and discard any other, install proprietary Office and everything else proprietary. Next connection to Internet computer will send its internal memory signatures and Microsoft will track my data into their SQL 2000 Server.

You make extremely valid points.

Solaris, Linux, a handful of other UNIXices, and now Mac OS X form a counterpoint to widescale domination of the industry by one company, Microsoft.

Even if ultimately Mac OS X wasn't as good as it promises to be, it would still be worth using to prevent Microsoft using its tentacles to strangle the industry.

[booboo]

Originally posted by ddregs:

If they win, we all will learn to program in proprietary C# and discard Java, install proprietary ASP and discard PHP and other solutions, install proprietary mail system Exchange and discard any other, install proprietary Office and everything else proprietary. Next connection to Internet computer will send its internal memory signatures and Microsoft will track my data into their SQL 2000 Server.!

Unfortunately, I don't thing Apple's software update approach is that open standard either:.. What's wrong with ftp?

As OS-X can't speak to my (incredibly popular Alcatel USB ADSL) modem, I can't even get the damn update...