[milkmanchris]

Like a few of us Euro folk have mentioned the cost of motoring is becoming a joke over here.

Would you Americans drive these 'big' cars if gas was $7 a gallon, like it is here.

And your 0-60 times are irrelevant, I'll beat any muscle car on my bicycle thro rush hour traffic where I live.

[george68]

Originally posted by milkmanchris:


Would you Americans drive these 'big' cars if gas was $7 a gallon, like it is here.

And your 0-60 times are irrelevant, I'll beat any muscle car on my bicycle thro rush hour traffic where I live.

Fine.

Just don't say your 60hp piece of junk is fast and there won't be any debating.

- Rob

[milkmanchris]

Originally posted by george68:
Fine.

Just don't say your 60hp piece of junk is fast and there won't be any debating.

- Rob

Question dodger

[entrox]

Originally posted by george68:
Just don't say your 60hp piece of junk is fast and there won't be any debating.

Duh. Everything is slow when compared to a Mercedes SLR, Porsche GT2 or a Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT. We're not comparing against (for 99% of the population) fantasy cars, but against the median on European streets. And there are far, far more Golfs and Cuinquecentos than SLKs, TTs or whatever. And even the more luxurious cars like Mercedes or Audi are usually the smallest possible engine (even living in Stuttgart, I've never seen a CLK500 or 55 AMG but a lot of 200s).

It's just way too expensive to be justified. Yet, I can still hit 200km/h with my slow car. Can you? Without getting a ticket?

[badidea]

Ohhhh poor Stuttgart!!!!
Come to Hamburg / Elbchaussee in the morning between 8-9 o'clock if you want to see some fast cars....if you're lucky you can even see a guy driving to work with his new Porsche Carrera GT!!

I'd say everything less than 500hp is slow!

[villalobos]

Originally posted by entrox:
It's just way too expensive to be justified. Yet, I can still hit 200km/h with my slow car. Can you? Without getting a ticket?

That's the amusing thing in the US. Cars with 250-300 HP driven at a mighty 65 MPH. So damn funny. All that with a convenient slushbox too.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by badidea:
Ohhhh poor Stuttgart!!!!
Come to Hamburg / Elbchaussee in the morning between 8-9 o'clock if you want to see some fast cars....if you're lucky you can even see a guy driving to work with his new Porsche Carrera GT!!

I'd say everything less than 500hp is slow!

Or check out Gerhardstr. (just off Reeperbahn) at 1 p.m or around 5ish (times appear to vary), when the pimps show up in their bling Porsches and SLKs. One of them had a Maserati that he'd start up every twenty minutes or so, rev it up, drive it around the block once, and then park it again.

[entrox]

Originally posted by badidea:
Ohhhh poor Stuttgart!!!!
Come to Hamburg / Elbchaussee in the morning between 8-9 o'clock if you want to see some fast cars....if you're lucky you can even see a guy driving to work with his new Porsche Carrera GT!!

Pffft! Come to the parking lot at the Porsche factory and you'll also see lot's of fast cars. That's not fair!

[ASIMO]

European folks, your cars are very tight, indeed, in more ways than one. Disregard all this numeric nonsense found on these boards or in the pages of "name the automotive publication." Even among the cheesiest of rides, they are very zippy and handle amazingly better than they appear to possibly handle. They ride a little stiffer, rattle much less. The number of models and makes just boggles the mind. Now, if only I could get used to all that diesel in the air.

Just got back from a couple of weeks sojourn in France and the UK, and I knew there was something I forgot to take photos of. Blame the tasty girls, I guess.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by ASIMO:
Just got back from a couple of weeks sojourn in France and the UK, and I knew there was something I forgot to take photos of. Blame the tasty girls, I guess.

PIXPLZTHX

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Uh-huh. Let's see, I test drove several - braking sucked, handling sucked, suspension sucked. Pretty much every Japanese model I drove beat them hands down. I didn't test too many German cars because they were too expensive.

Yes ANd I have tested every Jap model ever made 24/7 and they all sucked constantly forever!

Get a clue.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by the_glassman:
So the side windows leak as well? I'm talking about the windshield and rear window. I've talked to no less then 5 people about this problem. Most are members of my local SCCA. Another gentleman has a problem with it leaking into his trunk and keeps a bunch of those super absorbent micro-fiber towels so when it rains his trunk doesn't flood.

I've owned 3 neons. Not one time was this a problem.

I've known a few people that had problems with freon leaking from their Neons. As for the paint I've seen other colors with that problem including purple. White is the most popular color for vehicles. I feel much better knowing only some of these vehicles had the paint problem.
Look here for the paint, window leaking and other problems.

Yup in the FIRST YEAR the NEON came out White and Purple cars had paint problems. It was NOT the fault of Chrysler, but the fault of the paint manufacturer.

Another problem with friends who race Neons are the motor mounts they have had to replace. Here is a page that describes the mounts as a common problem and repair.

They don't have to be replaced UNLESS YOU ARE RACING THEM.
I've had my R/T since about 99, and I've never had to replace them.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by milkmanchris:
Like a few of us Euro folk have mentioned the cost of motoring is becoming a joke over here.

Would you Americans drive these 'big' cars if gas was $7 a gallon, like it is here.

ER I have a 2.0l 4 banger. Not a "big" car

And your 0-60 times are irrelevant, I'll beat any muscle car on my bicycle thro rush hour traffic where I live.

Try passing one on a two lane.

[cenutrio]

In my case I'm in love with another French car. The citroen C3 pluriel...sweet!




,but since I live in the states I'll have to keep fighting with my 84 VW rabbit

last weekend

[george68]

Meh. These are all weak.

http://chicane.myftp.org/Videos/badlandsvx.mov

Much better.

- Rob

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Yes ANd I have tested every Jap model ever made 24/7 and they all sucked constantly forever!
[/B]

The difference being what I posted is true. But you don't want to believe me, so that's fine. The readers can decide for themselves which account is more believeable.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by hayesk:
The difference being what I posted is true. But you don't want to believe me, so that's fine. The readers can decide for themselves which account is more believeable.

You made broad generalizations that simply aren't true.

hayesk do me a favor, test a car from America that is actually MADE for those sort of things and get back to me.

Testing base model Neons WILL NOT and I repeat WILL NOT give you the same results as testing a R/T or ACR version.

That is like someone saying "The SRT-4 Sucks because I drove a SX-T model and it stank"

You'll just get laughed at for making such moronic suggestions.

[hagheid]

The cop chasing me is faster than the cop chasing you

http://www.aaca.org/junior/ahoooga/wav/hiwaycop.wav

[Powaqqatsi]

I'm in the south of Belgium at the moment, where we have these wonderful little roads with 10's of curves one after the other following each other at a high pace. Blasting through them at high speed with the Clio was such fun !

[the_glassman]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

I've owned 3 neons. Not one time was this a problem.

Congrautulations you are the minority, no one I know that has owned a Neon hasn't had at least some kind of problem.

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Yup in the FIRST YEAR the NEON came out White and Purple cars had paint problems. It was NOT the fault of Chrysler, but the fault of the paint manufacturer.

How was it not the fault of Chrysler?
The paint was peeling of the factory floor? They designed, manufactured and sold the car. This is a defect that should have had all cars effected with this problem recalled and repainted with better paint and Chryslers cost. This is what warranties are for, and it's Chryslers fault for using they paint, nobody made them purchase or use that paint. Same for the head gasket.

Originally posted by Zimphire:

They don't have to be replaced UNLESS YOU ARE RACING THEM.
I've had my R/T since about 99, and I've never had to replace them.

Oh, so you are a magazine and bench racer? Just as I had figured. A keyboard Jockey at their finest pulling numbers out of their arse and quoting numbers without a single reference of proof.

This gentleman purchased a fine vehicle, that is leaps and bounds beyond any Neon.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

ER I have a 2.0l 4 banger. Not a "big" car for Americans

Fixed. Not sure why I bother but meh.

[effgee]

Originally posted by villalobos:

Originally posted by Zimphire:
ER I have a 2.0l 4 banger. Not a "big" car

ER I have a 2.0l 4 banger. Not a "big" car for Americans
Fixed. Not sure why I bother but meh.

<kidding>

• hmpft ... speak for yourself.

</kidding>

[george68]

Originally posted by the_glassman:
Congrautulations you are the minority, no one I know that has owned a Neon hasn't had at least some kind of problem.

And you must have some luck having zero problems with your turbor rotaries.....

How was it not the fault of Chrysler?
The paint was peeling of the factory floor? They designed, manufactured and sold the car. This is a defect that should have had all cars effected

I believe you were going for 'affected'.

with this problem recalled and repainted with better paint and Chryslers cost. This is what warranties are for, and it's Chryslers fault for using they paint, nobody made them purchase or use that paint. Same for the head gasket.

And guess what? If you bitched enough you COULD get chrysler to repaint it, and lots of people got the headgasket changed to an MLS gasket at chrysler's expense. Trust me. Zimphire and I were both at neons.org long enough to hear LOTS of head gasket problems, and a lot of them were fixed and paid for by Chrysler, when the car was OUT of warranty.

This gentleman purchased a fine vehicle, that is leaps and bounds beyond any Neon.

Sure. As long as you're not talking about the acceleration, top speed, handling or braking of the vehicles.

- Rob

[the_glassman]

Originally posted by george68:
And you must have some luck having zero problems with your turbor rotaries.....

I wouldn't really call it luck, I do proper maintenance and do all my own work. I also work on other cars as well for profit in my spare time.

Originally posted by george68:

I believe you were going for 'affected'.

Yes, in-fact I was.

Originally posted by george68:

And guess what? If you bitched enough you COULD get chrysler to repaint it, and lots of people got the headgasket changed to an MLS gasket at chrysler's expense. Trust me. Zimphire and I were both at neons.org long enough to hear LOTS of head gasket problems, and a lot of them were fixed and paid for by Chrysler, when the car was OUT of warranty.

You shouldn't have to bitch to Chrysler they should just repair it. It's called a defect for a reason.

Originally posted by george68:

Sure. As long as you're not talking about the acceleration, top speed, handling or braking of the vehicles.

- Rob

You would be amazed that some people actually care about things like build quality, fit and finish and a manufacture that stands behind it's product. You guys keeping talking about the Neon as if it's some kind of race ready track car. But I'll let you on a little secret, it's not. In fact the vehicle is painfully slow, with the exception of the SRT-4. Neon's do great at Solo Auto Cross with the artificially tight corners. But when it boils down to it, they are just another cheap, poorly made, economy car.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by the_glassman:
How was it not the fault of Chrysler?
The paint was peeling of the factory floor? They designed, manufactured and sold the car. This is a defect that should have had all cars effected with this problem recalled and repainted with better paint and Chryslers cost. This is what warranties are for, and it's Chryslers fault for using they paint, nobody made them purchase or use that paint. Same for the head gasket.

The Paint company was giving them paint with chemicals in them that the Chrysler organization did not ask for. By the time they found out it was too late.

This only effected the 1995 Neons.

Oh, so you are a magazine and bench racer? Just as I had figured. A keyboard Jockey at their finest pulling numbers out of their arse and quoting numbers without a single reference of proof.

I am speaking rally racing or scca. Not 1/4 mile. I am about to put different mounts in them soon however.

This gentleman purchased a fine vehicle, that is leaps and bounds beyond any Neon.

Highly subjective.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by the_glassman:
You would be amazed that some people actually care about things like build quality, fit and finish and a manufacture that stands behind it's product.

Yup, and my R/T has no problem here. It's not luxury vehicle, it's oer 5 years old and isn't falling apart.

You guys keeping talking about the Neon as if it's some kind of race ready track car.

The R/T, ACR version ARE.

But I'll let you on a little secret, it's not. In fact the vehicle is painfully slow, with the exception of the SRT-4.

While it's no rocket stock ( I was running 15.5s in my stock R/T) with a few small mods one could easily get it into the 13s and 14s .

Neon's do great at Solo Auto Cross with the artificially tight corners. But when it boils down to it, they are just another cheap, poorly made, economy car.

Oh don't get my wrong. It's no Porsche or BMW. But when you compare it to cars in it's class, it outperforms in about everything.

[John6ate]

Originally posted by the_glassman:
I wouldn't really call it luck, I do proper maintenance and do all my own work. I also work on other cars as well for profit in my spare time.

That's pretty incredible that you've had such an experience though, considering how mazda was losing money like crazy when people brought them in with blown engines. You must be magical.

You shouldn't have to bitch to Chrysler they should just repair it. It's called a defect for a reason.

Yes, but unfortunatly in the really real world, it doesn't work that way. Does apple fix all of it's 'defects' after the 1 year warranty? Nope. Most companies don't. Do you think if I purchased a 1993 Mazda RX7 and blew the engine that Mazda would replace the engine? Nope.

You would be amazed that some people actually care about things like build quality, fit and finish

Which is why I sold my neon. It completley lacked build quality and the fit and finish was pretty awful..... the only car I've seen worse are Chevy Cavaliers and Pontiac Sunfires. Awful awful awful. But that isn't the issue here. The issue is that 110hp in a small car is NOT very fast, especially when a LOT of small cars being produced have WELL over 150hp. ****, look at the SRT-4. 250hp... in a tiny car.

You guys keeping talking about the Neon as if it's some kind of race ready track car.

The ACR is. The rest of them just need a few tweaks to be highly competitive. ACRs don't differ ALL that much from the run of the mill neon.

But I'll let you on a little secret, it's not. In fact the vehicle is painfully slow, with the exception of the SRT-4.

Now it's getting interesting... if a neon... with 150hp... and 0-60 of mid 7s-low 8s is 'painfully slow' as you put it, than this 110hp Renault 4 banger must be 'for the love of god please accelerate before I die of old age- slow", since it is much much slower than a neon, correct?

Good. Glad you eventually said the same exact thing that Zimphire and I have been saying.

But when it boils down to it, they are just another cheap, poorly made, economy car.

Agreed. Cheap. Poor fit and finish. Economy car. Damn respectable handling. Great acceleration for a compact car. Fun to drive.

- Rob

[MattNN]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
The Paint company was giving them paint with chemicals in them that the Chrysler organization did not ask for. By the time they found out it was too late.

This only effected the 1995 Neons.
[/b] [/B]

WRONG! Do a search for Dodge Lemons or something similar and you will find a plethora of web sites which detail the many vehicles that suffered from peeling paint. It was not limited to one year or a few colors as Rob misled us to believe.

FWIW, when I lived in Texas I saw some data on the top 11 most reported lemons. Seven of the top eleven were D-C products. There were a couple GM, a Ford, and a VW. Keep in mind that in Texas, pickups are purchased more often than anywhere else in the country. Therefore, the Dakota and Ram are higher on the list. And lest you think that these lemons only apply to the 19xx-19xx model years, find the date on the article. http://www.dot.state.tx.us/txdotnews/037-2004.htm

View the data. Make your own decision.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally posted by george68:
I don't mean the older ones. I mean the twin turbocharged sporty ones from 93+.

- Rob

Any twin turbo'd car will have problems after 90-100k miles... especially when few people know how to properly service it.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by MattNN:
WRONG! Do a search for Dodge Lemons or something similar and you will find a plethora of web sites which detail the many vehicles that suffered from peeling paint. It was not limited to one year or a few colors as Rob misled us to believe.

Sure it was. And it was just the white and lapis blue colors.

You know I hang out in a Neons forum. Been doing so since 1997. I have also owned 3 myself. I know what I am talking about.

FWIW, when I lived in Texas I saw some data on the top 11 most reported lemons. Seven of the top eleven were D-C products. There were a couple GM, a Ford, and a VW. Keep in mind that in Texas, pickups are purchased more often than anywhere else in the country. Therefore, the Dakota and Ram are higher on the list. And lest you think that these lemons only apply to the 19xx-19xx model years, find the date on the article. http://www.dot.state.tx.us/txdotnews/037-2004.htm

View the data. Make your own decision.

None of those are Neons strawman.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You made broad generalizations that simply aren't true.

No, I said the American cars I test drove sucked. That simply is true. I don't believe you were in the car with me.

hayesk do me a favor, test a car from America that is actually MADE for those sort of things and get back to me.

Testing base model Neons WILL NOT and I repeat WILL NOT give you the same results as testing a R/T or ACR version.

That is like someone saying "The SRT-4 Sucks because I drove a SX-T model and it stank"

You'll just get laughed at for making such moronic suggestions.

I didn't make any such suggestions. You are attempting at putting words in my mouth. I said every American car I drove sucked. I also said I did research on quality and reliability, and American cars came out on the bottom. You extrapolated, poorly at that.

[eddiecatflap]

Originally posted by george68:
Because when someone refers to a 110 hp car as 'fast' or 'powerful' it's kinda funny. That'd be like someoen talking about how blazing fast their 350 mhz G3 is.

- Rob

ever heard of power to weight ratio , dumbass ?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by hayesk:
No, I said the American cars I test drove sucked. That simply is true. I don't believe you were in the car with me.

Tell us then, what cars did you test drive?

[xi_hyperon]

Page 3, and you guys are still bickering. I don't understand the point of getting stuck on how fast a car is, when "fast" is a subjective term in the first place. So he said his car is fast. So what? Compared to what he had originally, or what his friends drive, perhaps his new car is fast. There is no set definition, so it's silly to get ruffled and defend your brand loyalty in the first place.

On a tangent, speed without build quality is not necessarily everyone's idea of the best car for them. Even with good build quality, speed is not on everyone's list of criteria for the ideal car, believe it or not.

It's called taste. That's why we have a bazillion types of vehicles on the market.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Tell us then, what cars did you test drive? [/B]

There is another reason why American cars don't really sell in Europe. And it's not necessarily the big engine, we have a lot of people who can afford a big engine but these people buy a European or Japanese car just because of the quality of 90% of the American cars completely sucks in comparison to what we have here, even compared to real cheap cars over here. We are used to better stuff. There was a huge amount of complaints when Mercedes released the M-class that is built in the US (Atlanta IIRC) because it used cheap american quality materials and was poorly finished.

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Tell us then, what cars did you test drive? [/B]

Some I drove, some a friend drove: Taurus, Malibu, Grand Prix, Cavalier, Intrepid, Jeep Liberty (rental), and a Cadillac (only because it was rented for a wedding). The Cadillac had a smooth ride and had a powerful engine, but the steering was soft, and you couldn't really "feel" what the car was doing. I was not impressed with the other cars at all.

I also researched failure rates, recalls problems, costs to maintain, etc. from articles and from Phil Edmunston's Lemon-Aid book.

I used to drive Toyota Tercel - no problems in six years. When I needed a bigger car, I bought a Honda Accord. I couldn't be happier with it.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
There is another reason why American cars don't really sell in Europe. And it's not necessarily the big engine, we have a lot of people who can afford a big engine but these people buy a European or Japanese car just because of the quality of 90% of the American cars completely sucks in comparison to what we have here, even compared to real cheap cars over here. We are used to better stuff. There was a huge amount of complaints when Mercedes released the M-class that is built in the US (Atlanta IIRC) because it used cheap american quality materials and was poorly finished.

Highly Subjective. And depends on what you deem important.

It seems Europe puts a lot of importance on trivial, shallow things like "certain types of leather seats" and a dash that is made out of mahogany or some sorts.

I put usage and drivability over luxury.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Some I drove, some a friend drove: Taurus, Malibu, Grand Prix, Cavalier, Intrepid, Jeep Liberty (rental), and a Cadillac (only because it was rented for a wedding).

All those cars are not performance minded. Most are family cars geared towards fuel economy and comfort. Not handling.

The Cadillac had a smooth ride and had a powerful engine, but the steering was soft, and you couldn't really "feel" what the car was doing. I was not impressed with the other cars at all.

Again, there goes the comfort above handling I was talking about above.
Some people like that feel.

I used to drive Toyota Tercel - no problems in six years. When I needed a bigger car, I bought a Honda Accord. I couldn't be happier with it.

The only Toyota I would own is the Celica GT-S. It's HP and drivability is more US like IMHO. There isn't a Honda I would buy out now. The Prelude was actually the last Honda I liked.

[MattNN]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Sure it was. And it was just the white and lapis blue colors.

You know I hang out in a Neons forum. Been doing so since 1997. I have also owned 3 myself. I know what I am talking about.


None of those are Neons strawman. [/B]

Just search "Chrysler Peeling Paint" in the google search bar of Safari. Without clicking any of the links on the first page of returns, it is evident that the problem involved at least 1997 Neons and 1991 Caravan/Voyager/T&C.

I never said any of those were Neons. The fact is that 7 of the worst 11 vehicles in Texas are produced by D-C.

[Cody Dawg]

I bought a new car...FINALLY!

As anyone who has followed anything that has happened to us recently, such as getting our *sses pounded by hurricane Frances and subsequently having our Nissan Altima smashed by a falling tree, we were out a car.

Thanks to Geico, (Geico rocks --->) ---> they were at our house two days after the hurricane writing us a nice check for the damage to our car) , we were able to start looking for a new car right away.

We've been looking at SUVs and had decided on a Dodge Durango, a Chevrolet Suburban, and a few other cars, but we decided on the Chevy Suburban Limited Edition. We got it as a showroom demo model, which knocked off some $$$, and there was an '04 year-end rebate on it, so we made out well when we combined those factors with the Geico check and giving them our Nissan for wholesale.

I don't get excited about vehicles that often, but this one makes me very happy. It has the leather seats, bucket seats in the front and in the second row, third row seating, sunroof, On Star, XFM radio, and a few other amenities that I love. Best of all, has a big V8 engine -- it's got great get-up-and-go when you give it gas.

I never thought about owning a Chevy Suburban before, but they're really nice nowadays.

So, even though we went through h*ll with the hurricane and lost our car, some good came of it.

Here's my new car:

[badidea]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I bought a new car...FINALLY!
...

That's not a car!!! That's a truck!
Do you think it is heavy enough to not fly away with the next hurrican?

[Cody Dawg]

badidea: You made me laugh! Yer right...it IS a truck!



Yeah, I guess it won't blow away.

Here's what happened to my Nissan (smashed in the roof, broke the windshield - and it got flooded from rain from the hurricane, bent the frame, ruined the transmission) here:



Or

[badidea]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
...

*snip*

Ouch, looks like your car saved your house though!

[angelmb]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
[B]I bought a new car...FINALLY!]

You are going to need a new garage, right? Well, you could live inside the Suburban

[kjb]

Originally posted by Sandbaggins:
Step 1: Go to Google

Step 2: Type Ford GT

Step 3: Pull your foot out of your mouth.


Nuff said.

How about this one:

Compact American cars lack style.

Fixed!! (this is like that goofy game we all played with our cousings when we were little kids, isn't it??)

Kev

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by kjb:
Compact American cars lack style.

Lack Style? Who are you trying to fool?

[Cody Dawg]

Which American car lacks style?

The Corvette, for instance?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Which American car lacks style?

The Corvette, for instance?

This one works for style, though it has no class:


Beyond that: "Pimp" ain't "style".

Rather the opposite.

-s*

[Zimphire]

Because it was made in the 70s.

This vette has style. (Cept for the headlights it stole off the the Viper)



And I am not a big Vette fan.

[badidea]

Errr....No!