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TheGreatButcher · Jan 10, 2006, 10:39 PM

I noticed the MacBook Pro has no FireWire 800. Apple killing it?

rickey939 · Jan 10, 2006, 11:20 PM

It's been gone for awhile now I believe. I'm really surprised they have FireWire 400 on the MacBook Pro to be honest.

Ghoser777 · Jan 10, 2006, 11:24 PM

Never mind.

OldManMac · Jan 10, 2006, 11:27 PM

It still comes on the PowerMac G5, where it makes more sense. CompUSA sells some FW800 network/backup drives. I'm not surprised that it's not on the consumer models, and I don't see much need for it on the MacBook Pro.

BrunoBruin · Jan 10, 2006, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by rickey939

I'm really surprised they have FireWire 400 on the MacBook Pro to be honest.

The new version of iMovie that Apple introduced today still requires FireWire for importing video from a DV cam. The new machines also require FireWire for Setup Assistant. I don't think FireWire is going anywhere for a while.

Leia's Left Bun · Jan 10, 2006, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ghoser777

Never mind.

FW400 yes for Camcorders but not digital cameras.

Can't say I didn't see this one coming...

TheGreatButcher · Jan 10, 2006, 11:49 PM

I use the 800 port on my current PowerBook... seems like a step backwards to get rid of it. Maybe once they phase out the PowerPC books they'll include it?

Leia's Left Bun · Jan 10, 2006, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by TheGreatButcher

I use the 800 port on my current PowerBook... seems like a step backwards to get rid of it. Maybe once they phase out the PowerPC books they'll include it?

Why would they take it out and put it back in?

I think we need to accept that USB 2 has won for everything except camcorders and no doubt they will work hard on that one.

Remember we were all supposed to have Firewire 1600 through fibre optics by now?

Kevin · Jan 11, 2006, 12:25 AM

mduell · Jan 11, 2006, 01:04 AM

I read (and commented on) the rumors, but I'm shocked to see Apple dump FW800. I'm a bit dumbfounded, since Intel doesn't include Firewire support in their chipsets, so Apple has to add another chip regardless of whether they pick FW400 or 800; since 800 is backward compatible, it seems like a much better choice.

Since they didn't add an e.SATA port, I think we'll be seeing a lot of OSX compatible ExpressCards soon.

Kevin Moon · Jan 11, 2006, 01:29 AM

I would say part of the deal with intel was probably for apple to phase out firewire. I use firewire all the time just not fw800 so I hope fw400 stays for a very long time. The firewire port just went out on my epson perfection 2450 and I can't stand usb speeds, even 2.0. I don't think fw800 came out soon enough to establish itself in the marketplace and thus would be justified being taken out of the consumer model. For the pro machine I don't know why apple didn't just put an fw800 port in with an adapter for fw400 included with the computer. That would have insured all devices would work on the new machine.

Millennium · Jan 11, 2006, 01:52 PM

Nah, it's just cheap-over-good. Despite (or perhaps because of?) being demonstrably inferior to FireWire in every significant way, USB is slightly cheaper to implement, which means Apple can squeeze that much more profit out of its beloved price points.

TETENAL · Jan 11, 2006, 02:36 PM

As long as Firewire is the port of DV-cameras it's not going away.

Leia's Left Bun · Jan 11, 2006, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

As long as Firewire is the port of DV-cameras it's not going away.

They said the same about iPods.

Oisín · Jan 11, 2006, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

They said the same about iPods.

When were iPods the port of DV cameras?

Leia's Left Bun · Jan 11, 2006, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Oisín

When were iPods the port of DV cameras?

Uh, they said as long as iPods had firewire that is wasn't going anywhere.

We see how well that went.

OldManMac · Jan 11, 2006, 04:32 PM

They weren't "the port of DV cameras," but they did formerly connect via FireWire.

Salty · Jan 11, 2006, 04:40 PM

What all is Firewire 800 useful for? External HDs... and... uhh...? Right now nothing really needs anything above 400Mbps transfer rates, and for those things that do it seems Apple would rather sell you an Xserve RAID.

I don't think Firewire 400 is going to go away any time soon though, too many Apple peripherals use it.

Oisín · Jan 11, 2006, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Uh, they said as long as iPods had firewire that is wasn't going anywhere.

We see how well that went.

Yeah, I did get what you meant, I was just being a smartass.

But—and correct me if I’m wrong here—the new iPods don’t have FireWire, do they? So “they” would, in a way, be correct, wouldn’t they? As long as iPods connect via FireWire, it’s not going anywhere. Well, they don’t connect via FireWire anymore, so it can go somewhere now. Although, since it’s still the preferred port for DV cams, there’s one more ‘hurdle’ to overcome before it can safely go anywhere.

Yeah.

wdlove · Jan 11, 2006, 04:51 PM

My concern is that there is the ability to have a fast transfer rate os data.

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 11, 2006, 04:55 PM

Good article on the background:

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1104

Doesn't really matter anyway - only PowerMacs and the 15" and 17" PowerBooks had FW 800 anyway (and only one port at that). The rest were FW 400 and USB 2.

And Millenium, you're sounding like a broken record: "Waaaaa! Apple's trying to make more profit!!!! They went with the wrong technology!!!! Cheap over good!!!! Waaaaa!!!"

Apple STARTED and holds the rights to Firewire technology. They wouldn't drop it for no good reason. It's very likely leaving FW 800 out of Intel Macs was part of their agreement with Intel.

Kr0nos · Jan 11, 2006, 05:02 PM

FW is dead. The 400 is still around because it kicks ass on USB 2.0 in almost every way, and because most consumer DV cams use it. FW 800 is gone and won't come back.

For the next year we're stuck with mostly USB until Apple comes out with a new standard. Maybe even wireless.

porieux · 07:06 AM

...

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 11, 2006, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by porieux

If Apple keeps going in this direction they are going to lose me as a customer (and shareholder)

And what direction is that? Making good business decisions? As a shareholder you should be jumping for joy. Two analysts raised price target today. Again. $90 and $100. So You're considering selling your shares of Apple because they got rid of FW 800? Because they are using Intel chips? That makes sense.

Eug Wanker · Jan 11, 2006, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

What all is Firewire 800 useful for? External HDs... and... uhh...? Right now nothing really needs anything above 400Mbps transfer rates, and for those things that do it seems Apple would rather sell you an Xserve RAID.

Huh? Lots and lots of hard drives (including consumer ones) can easily max out a Firewire 400 connection.

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

FW is dead.

Not

> With the demise of Firewire, does target disk mode still work on
> the new machines?

Yes. (FireWire is not dead).

----
Eric Zelenka
Sr. Product Line Manager, Server & Storage Software
Worldwide Product Marketing
Apple Computer

porieux · 07:06 AM

...

Kr0nos · Jan 11, 2006, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

... Yes. (FireWire is not dead).

We'll see when the rev. b models come out (I reckon early 2007). My prediction, - no FW. (And I'm not saying this because I don't like FW. Hell, if it was up to me, I would have stayed with the PPC and Firewire. But Apple didn't.)

USB 2.0 will be outdated by the end of this year.

porieux · 07:06 AM

...

Eug Wanker · Jan 11, 2006, 05:36 PM

I'm not surprised the new 15" lost Firewire 800. I never saw the point anyway for a portable. Furthermore, ExpressCard ports can easily handle the bandwidth for Firewire 800.

I would be very surprised to see Firewire 400 lost on the version B Intel PowerBooks however. That would simply be moronic, considering that DV cameras are standardized on Firewire.

BTW, the Intel Macs cannot boot from USB 2.0 (for now).

TETENAL · Jan 11, 2006, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Uh, they said as long as iPods had firewire that is wasn't going anywhere.

We see how well that went.

And? Firewire didn't go anywhere as long as iPods had Firewire. So what was the point of your post?

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 11, 2006, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by porieux

Oh yeah, the market and analysts are a GREAT way to evaluate Apple's decisions

I have two words for you MacBook Pro.

Apple finally jumped the shark.

The MacBook Pro is going to sell like hotcakes. Guaranteed. You may not like the name. You may not like that it doesn't have FW 800. You may not like that it has an Intel chip. It doesn't matter in the least what people on this board "like" or "think" about Apple's decisions regarding this line because it is going to sell - and that is what matters to shareholders (myself included) and to Apple.

andreas_g4 · Jan 11, 2006, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by porieux

If Apple keeps going in this direction they are going to lose me as a customer (and shareholder)

Sounds like a lot of hot air. How big is your share anyway? 1000 bucks?

alphamatrix · Jan 11, 2006, 06:59 PM

Read this: http://emperor.tidbits.com/[email protected]=.3c74ac53

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 11, 2006, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by alphamatrix

Read this: http://emperor.tidbits.com/[email protected]=.3c74ac53

Once again Apple proves they know why they are doing what they are doing more than most people who post on MacNN.

Oisín · Jan 11, 2006, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by alphamatrix

Read this: http://emperor.tidbits.com/[email protected]=.3c74ac53

So... to recapture, for those of us who are technological nitwits:

How exactly would these “two simultaneous FireWire 800 ports that could run at full speed” work? ExpressCard hub-ish thingy?

Jan 11, 2006, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

They said the same about iPods.

Uhm... other than rabid Mac fanboys, who claimed the iPod was the reason for keeping firewire?

Firewire is used by professionals and USB 2.0 cannot be substituted - it simply isn't up to the task. Firewire isn't going anywhere until something better comes along.

scottiB · Jan 11, 2006, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Oisín

So... to recapture, for those of us who are technological nitwits:

How exactly would these “two simultaneous FireWire 800 ports that could run at full speed” work? ExpressCard hub-ish thingy?

My guess? The card thingy will be dual channel FW 800.

Mrjinglesusa · 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Oisín

So... to recapture, for those of us who are technological nitwits:

How exactly would these “two simultaneous FireWire 800 ports that could run at full speed” work? ExpressCard hub-ish thingy?

http://www.xterasys.com/e94b.htm

Now granted, this is an ExpressCard/54, not an ExpressCard/34 as in the MacBook. But you get the idea. FW 800 is not dead, it's just going to be available to you in a different manner if you decide you need it in your laptop.

Also, some info on the standard:

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,120746,00.asp

http://www.expresscard.org/web/site/standardsummary.jsp

EDIT: BTW, this is another example of Apple being one of the early adopters of a new standard that will be mainstream in a year (i.e. in every new portable computer). TV adapters, FW 800, Media Card Readers, etc. are all going to be using this technology (ExpressCard) to bring these features to laptops for people who want them. In fact, many of them are already out there.

alphamatrix · Jan 11, 2006, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by hayesk

Uhm... other than rabid Mac fanboys, who claimed the iPod was the reason for keeping firewire?

Firewire is used by professionals and USB 2.0 cannot be substituted - it simply isn't up to the task. Firewire isn't going anywhere until something better comes along.

I agree. Without doing any research I would say that at the it of the iPods initial release firewire was all there was that fit the bill, it was high speed, it allowed the device to be bus powered, and most importantly it had already been included with previous macs. At the time this was a mac only device and USB2 wasn't exactly common place, let alone supported on the mac.
Now the iPod is a widespread multi-platform consumer electronic device and it makes sense to use USB2: a widespread multi-platform standard. Despite the fact that its fairly new on the mac due to the technical superiority of, and Apple's backing of Firewire. For those reasons, bother Firewire and USB2 have their place.