[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by aaroncsmith:
<STRONG>In case you all haven't noticed, Apple has a habit with the past few product intros of actually giving customers what they want. As far as I can tell, it started with the first firewire iBooks.

You can add other items to this list (SuperDrive, TV-in, video spanning) but nobody has been asking for an LCD.</STRONG>

Actually, everybody has been - if indirectly.

I've noticed for as long as 17"-iMac rumors have been around (about two years), that every time someone suggests a 17"-CRT iMac, fifty people yell "OMG - no! The iMac is bulky enough as is, nobody would want the thing to be even larger!" (Apple listened, and later-model iMacs are smaller than the original Bondi computer).

That rendering up above looks really nice, but consider that the thing would weigh about forty pounds and be roughly the size of a Morris Mini Cooper. I sure as hell don't have the space for one on *my* desk, regardless of specs and cost.

The *only* solution for a larger-screen iMac (which people *have* been asking for for years) is an LCD-based machine.

-chris.

[binky_says_hi]

nice ad 'shmerek'
But, if it's a LCD why would the unit be so DEEP....since it is not a
'CRT picture tube' depth of the whole unit would be dramatically reduced.

[Chimpmaster]

aaroncsmith - thats a valid point, but then again, I dont remember consumers asking apple to cease making crt monitors for powermacs, and yet thats exactly what theyve done.

From the apple store, you can only buy the lcd monitors now, and they prices have been coming down consistently for a while,now.

Maybe it is expected that lcd will be more cost effective than crt in the near future - who knows.

Originally posted by binky_says_hi:
<STRONG>nice ad 'shmerek'
But, if it's a LCD why would the unit be so DEEP....since it is not a
'CRT picture tube' depth of the whole unit would be dramatically reduced.</STRONG>

It isn't my rendering I got it from terminal 34 and I think it is so huge because it is supposed to have an isub built in which seems kind of retarded to me.

[binky_says_hi]

...do U remember ? ? ?

Back in early 1998 'The Performa Series' was one of the cheapest MAC's
you could get, all-in-one or tower, about $1999.(USD)

Summer 1998, Apple launched the "iMac"....Bondi blue, no floppy drive, USB,
and internet ready(my lime iMac[summer 2000]...from the box, setup & to my first website...11min.) people said, "is Apple crazy, people won't go for that, Apple has done themselves in".

Now it's the summer of 2001.... people are saying the same thing, too expensive, not enough features, doesn't have what....we've always had (U pick the perf. ABD, DVD, SCSI, 'PC world compliant-beige'...etc.) in the past, how could thay do this?

It's about looking ahead, not so much the past.

[aaroncsmith]

Just wanted to add a few comments.

First, Apple has started a new promo on their iMacs (free RIO 600 or 6 months no cash down) that ends in early July. This means, of course, that the current iMac is EOL and will be replaced at MWNY like we all knew.

Second, Apple and Future Power have reached a settlement over the iMac look-alike lawsuit. Under the terms of the agreement, Future Power will not release its iMac look-alike until at least 2004, But they have Apple's go-ahead for an identical 2-tone model built around a 17" CRT.

This probably means one of a few things:

1) Apple is sticking with the 15" CRT design (ugh)
2) Apple is going to a 17" CRT but with a radically different looking case than the current iMac.
3) Apple is in fact going ahead with a LCD version.

I think #1 is out because they know damn well that the 15" display is a major problem.

I would love them to put out a LCD version, but the price remains a killer. I can't see how they can get the price down enough. At the least the low-end model would have to come up to $999 and Apple would make almost no money on them. That would mean that they would try to add features to the upper-range models to entice people up the pricing scale.

So MAYBE a $999 LCD iMac is possible, with the following specs:

500 mHz G3
2 FireWire
2 USB
CD
ATI Rage 128
64 RAM
10 gig HD

For the $1199 and $1399 models you get CD-RW/DVD, more mHz and more HD. The high-end gets a Radeon or a GeForce2.


Even these barebones specs are pushing it. Basically you have to make a $1299 iBook for $999.

The other possibility is that they go with a NEW design around a 17" CRT. Specs would be higher and price would be lower.

Another possibility is a wide-screen CRT. Same resolution as a TiBook. Slightly larger viewable area than current iMac, with higher refresh and lower dot pitch at the 1024 resolution.

Think about this: http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/...0501/211560234

Don't you think that they would still care about this if they were getting ready to announce a 17" iMac?

Maybe Apple will be able to say "We thought about that, but we came up with something that you all will like even more".

[Dan Szwarc]

New Pismo? no way! New iMac more likely.

If Apple can produce an iBook for $1299, they can produce an iMac with an LCD for $1299 or maybe less. $999? Maybe with a 12" LCD, but not a 14".

I down't expect it to have a 16x9 screen either. Or even a widescreen like the TiBook.

[SpeedRacer]

I think the settlement with FP says it all: some very different iMacs are coming down the line. In the absence of a 17" iMacs i think that means LCD-based iMacs for sure.

I'll just echo what Dan said...

If Apple can make a LCD-based consumer portable for $1299 why wouldn't they be able to make a LCD-based consumer desktop for $999? And if they can produce an expandable, BTO' G4 desktop for close to $1k, why wouldn't they be able to make a nonexpandable, nonBTO, G3-powered desktop for under $1k?

If past history is any indicator, expect a bare-bones LCD iMac with CDROM for under $1k and subsequent upgraded models from $1k -&gt; $1500 to cover the entire range of CD, CDRW, or CDRW/DVD options.

And if the Cube is eliminated that gives Apple even more ability to bridge the pro-consumer gap with higher-priced iMacs.

I hear the rumblin... and i can't wait to see what kind of earthquake awaits us at MWNY.

Speed

[ 06-05-2001: Message edited by: SpeedRacer ]

[tomatohead]

Originally posted by SpeedRacer:
<STRONG>I think the settlement with FP says it all: some very different iMacs are coming down the line. In the absence of a 17" iMacs i think that means LCD-based iMacs for sure.

Speed</STRONG>

The settlement with FP says that FP can release their iMac lookalike in 2005. That doesn't mean that the iMac as we know will be gone in July of 2001. Moreover, what is FP supposed to do in then next 4 years other than go out of business. This is a winning settlement for Apple that prevents FP from making a computer that looks like the iMac, not a clear indication that the existing iMac is going away.

Nevertheless, I tend to agree that the current iMac is probably ready for an overhaul that will shock and surprise us all much like the original's absence of a floppy drive did.

[SpeedRacer]

Originally posted by tomatohead:
<STRONG>

The settlement with FP says that FP can release their iMac lookalike in 2005. That doesn't mean that the iMac as we know will be gone in July of 2001. Moreover, what is FP supposed to do in then next 4 years other than go out of business. This is a winning settlement for Apple that prevents FP from making a computer that looks like the iMac, not a clear indication that the existing iMac is going away. </STRONG>

The settlement states that FP can't make a 15" all-in-one. It gives them full-right to sell a 17" one. As aaron mentioned above, that gives a very strong indicator that July will bring LCD-based iMacs (being that a 17" CRT was one of the only other logical progressions of the iMac design).

Speed

[mbperk]

Bring on the new FP iMac........because that FP model is ugly as hell.

[ajprice]

Hopefully, my mockup pictures of an LCD screen iMac will be on www.Go2Mac.com tomorrow . I sent the pictures yesterday and had a reply from the man himself today.

With this ruling over Future Power, I think it's getting more likely that an LCD iMac is coming. MWNY is going to be one helluva show. What are the dates for MWNY, all I know is that its the middle of July

[wild9]

A mock up has been put up at the Register.... or
http://www.macanonymous.com/content/enter.html

Pretty plain, but VERY usefull!!!

[grok420]

Face it, guys. The new iMac is almost definitely going to have an LCD display.

Here's why:

1) The FP settlement almost garuntees the new iMac will NOT sport a 17" CRT. Apple had FP by the balls, you think they would let FP come out with a Media-event statement like "....first to bring all-in-one 17" computer....." if they weren't completely willing to concede that design? FP's announcement is part of the settlement, Apple let them claim that design.

2) There's not going to stick with 15" CRT. Apple is still blushing about "being late to the CD-RW party".

3) Apple doesn't make CRT's anymore, except for the iMac. (probably not actually manufactured by Apple anyway, don't flame me)

4) Time to push the envelope again.

5) The price argument against LCD is very compelling, but then again, how many of us could have predicted the iBook's price? More expensive RAM, HD, Video, enclosure, battery, etc and still only $1299 including profit?? They certainly can shave some markup off and get an LCD iMac under $1000. The current price war in the Wintel world means they need to live with slimmer margins, anyway.

6) They have to do it. The Dell price war combined with the Mhz myth and the iMac's tiny screen have pushed Apple into a corner. It's finally starting to live down to its pre-iMac criticisms that it wasn't enough machine for the buck.

Now that its settled in favor of LCD's. Hehehe. Let's turn our attention to how it will look? I noticed The Register's mockup is a 2-peice design. I'd be shocked if that happened. I think All-in-one is critical to the consumer market, especially since the iMac will still be more $ than Wintel consumer desktops.

Something like the 20th Anniversary Mac? Maybe a PCI slot in the space vacated by the CRT? Built-in espresso machine?

Don't forget that the price of the entry level iMac has room to go up to $1000 since Apple is very likely to introduce a sub $800 digital-hub device ala iPaq, albeit with infitely more charm and pizzazz. It is a Mac after all.

[ajprice]

grok420 : "Something like a Twentieth Anniversary Mac?"

grok, you read my mind. Here are the mockup pictures, I can't be bothered waiting for Go2Mac to post them.





The doors contain flat panel speakers, when they are closed the clear plastic Apple logo shows a section of the screen, so that when it is asleep, a mute iTunes visualiser or screensaver could run and show patterns in the logo, like a kind of Mac lava lamp. It stops the computer looking 'dead' when it's not being used.

The two piece design Illustrator mockup linked to above is an interesting idea, even if it is 2 piece. But I thought rack computers were 19" wide, or can there be a half size rack. 19" is way too big for an iMac!

[grok420]

woo hooo!!! nice goin' AJPrice!!

Now there's a great looking concept iMac. Send if off to sjobs and watch the sparks fly!!

From a realist standpoint, though, it would drive cost up cuz' looks like this would require more laptop components, i.e. RAM, HD. I suspect they will not go quite so slim, but I love it!!

Dare to dream, dare to dream, dare to dream.........

[mbperk]

AJ that is a beautiful looking iMac. Nice work. Love the covered Apple panels.

A flat panel imac..ha that is about as likely as a small clear cube

[MajingaZ]

The two piece design Illustrator mockup linked to above is an interesting idea, even if it is 2 piece. But I thought rack computers were 19" wide, or can there be a half size rack. 19" is way too big for an iMac![/QB]

Rack computers are 19" wide. It seems that you could get two of these new iMacs (which have a 8" side), turn them 90 degrees and fit both into a single mounting kit, which is the one that gets into the rack, with standard screws. Two servers each 2 inches.

M.Z.

[tomatohead]

Great mockup AJ. However, instead of swinging open (so passe), the doors should slide out, or better yet, down into the body.

[ajprice]

Thanks for the comments!

I'm thinking of doing a website of my mockups, similar to Applele.com (this iMac is the best I've done so far, the others have mainly been changing colours & things). Any ideas for a name for the website?

This mockup still hasn't turned up on Go2Mac , oh well.

[Matsu]

You know I think that might be my favorite mock-up. If Apple did something like it, they probably wouldn't have any doors at all. They could just use pods like the cube for speakers. Though I think it has to be a little thicker to house a 3.5" HDD and an Optical drive. They really ought to consider making an iMac with limited internal expandibility. One AGP slot (even a short one like the cube) and one PCI slot.

[lee vieira]

Still not convinced the new iMac is going to be LCD-based, fellas, for reasons of cost. Apple CAN'T just 'shave off some margin' and sell an LCD-based iMac for cheap, because if they take a loss in any given quarter the stock plummets and the 'Apple is DEAD!' FUD starts up in the press again, and people stop buying Macs because they think the company isn't going to be around in a couple of years.

That said, I DO like the alleged Apple product the Register posted a picture of, whether or not its an iMac. Imagine if you will the following:

1) the LCD is detachable AND is touch-screen...no mouse needed. Can plug into any outlet and has a battery(which will last longer than a laptop's, because it doesn't have to spin the hard drive).

2) wireless keyboard

3) LCD has a foldable 'leg' in the back, much like the picture frame you put on your desk. Put it anywhere.

4) base station has wireless built-in.

I don't think such a product would be CHEAP, but it would be pretty darn nice to have. Work at your desk, or detach the LCD and set it on your coffee table, while you slouch on the couch with your wireless keyboard on your lap. Or use the whole rig as a laptop when you're outside your house.

However, if you go to http://www.mosr.com , they pretty much pooh-pooh the entire concept, saying that the technology just isn't there yet, though they do say that an LCD iMac is on the way. Still, MOSR isn't always right...they hit a home run sometimes, but sometimes they strike out.

--lee

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: lee vieira ]

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: lee vieira ]

[wANCO tHE sANE]

Hey.... here's just a thought... You know all those imac designs that people think they are going to be? How about this: a new imac that's just a ball. It's a big sphere. All in one ball.... stand and keyboard folds out, panels that fold out to expose monitor (like ajprice showed)... but the design is just a ball. A really big ball.

here's another concept design that's really cool......

[Spheric Harlot]

Heh...

MOSR writes "we flatly refused to publish it due to several gaping holes in the report's description of the machine and its capabilities."

That's downright funny - considering how solid Ryan's research usually is...

-chris.

here's another concept design that's really cool......

here's another concept design that's really cool......love this one.

[MaritimeSeven]

ajprice! you should definitely make an industrial design web site!



your design for the new iMac is brilliant!

hmmm... names for the site...

promacdesign.com
fantasymac.com
macintosh2095.com
foxbasemacintosh.com
godswithmacs.com
macintoshindustrialdesign.com

sorry about my little tangent there...

As to those who say that Apple can't sell an LCD iMac for $100, I've seen the Gateway Profile 2 (a flat screen all in one) for $650, and IBM Netvista All-In ones for $1000. Search the web and you'll see....

[captnfun]

If iMac's are $899, $1199, and $1499 now,
could they be moved to $999, $1299, and $1499?

The current crop of iMac's have a 13.8 viewable screen, so a 14.1 inch LCD is still a small step up.

If the 15 inch Display is $599 could a 14 inch Display be $499?? if so could you build the rest of an iMac for another $500??

emachines builds boxes for $399, $499, and a pretty decent specd box for $699 (P3 1Ghz, 128MB, 20 GB, CD-RW)

If Apple could do that you'd have pretty good systems ranging from $1000 -$1500

[GraphiteBoi]

Originally posted by captnfun:
<STRONG>If iMac's are $899, $1199, and $1499 now,
could they be moved to $999, $1299, and $1499?
</STRONG>

I don't see the bottom iMac getting any more expensive than they are already. $899 is almost too expensive as it is.

[Amorph]

A few thoughts:

I don't agree that in order to lure PC buyers, Apple has to make things more like PCs. This assumes that, by and large, people are happy with them. Apple has done very well for itself by making things that aren't like PCs, even if many of the guts are the same. I think their focus on describing a computer in terms of what it can do (which the iApps do wonderfully), and how easily, speak to consumers a lot more than the arbitrary (to the average person) list of numbers that PC salesmen are fond of rattling off.

Along that line, I like the idea of Apple picking one baseline processor speed, etc., and distinguishing models based on features which are obvious to people: This one plays DVDs; that one burns CDs; etc. - just like they did with the iBook. That was a very smart move on Apple's part.

Now, about price: $500 is a magic number, as someone pointed out. But the magic is different now than it was two years ago, because in the interim consumers found out that $500 machines are crap. I remember a PC techie friend of mine saying that one bit of his advice to anyone interested in purchasing a machine was to avoid anything under $800. So I'm not worried about Apple staying on the high side of the under-$1000 market.

So, let's see: The iBook costs $1299. Its LCD is a bit pricier than some because it's denser, and LCDs are costlier to make the denser they are (different sizes at the same density are just a matter of cutting the same glass into fewer pieces, so there's not so much of a price differential there). The hard drive and optical drives are significantly pricier than their desktop equivalents because they're low-profile, there's the battery to account for, and the engineering that went into stuffing all that into a tiny but durable package that won't cook itself.

So I really don't see how Apple couldn't offer, say, an iMac with something like the current board (600Mhz G3, 100MHz system bus, etc., maybe bumped up a bit) and a 14.1" XGA LCD (not so much more expensive than the iBook's 12.1" XGA LCD, because it's less dense) for $999 (ducking under the still-magical $1000 mark). They don't make 25% profit on the iMacs as it is, so they don't have to here either. The lack of a big, hot CRT should make a fanless design easier to manage. Then, charge extra for different optical drives, just like the iBook.

I can already hear complaints about how my idea doesn't involve a significant spec boost; see my first paragraph. Apple is emphasizing real-world utility and downplaying numbers, and in practice there's very little a consumer will ever do that the current DV SE motherboard couldn't handle well. All the iMac needs to be a better gaming machine is a better video card. That said, I wouldn't miss a G4 or a 133MHz bus, but I don't think it's possible to add those and the LCD and keep the price point under a grand.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Amorph:
<STRONG>...LCDs are costlier to make the denser they are (different sizes at the same density are just a matter of cutting the same glass into fewer pieces, so there's not so much of a price differential there)...
So I really don't see how Apple couldn't offer, say, an iMac with something like the current board (600Mhz G3, 100MHz system bus, etc., maybe bumped up a bit) and a 14.1" XGA LCD (not so much more expensive than the iBook's 12.1" XGA LCD, because it's less dense) for $999 (ducking under the still-magical $1000 mark). They don't make 25% profit on the iMacs as it is, so they don't have to here either.</STRONG>

Amorph, I hadn't heard this before about density determining the price of an LCD - can you back that up? Sorry to be the skeptic. But Apple sells the 15" LCD for $599, and that has a 1024 X 768 resolution. So it seems hard to believe they could put one with the same resolution in a sub-K iMac.

I'm generally with lee on this, that a CRT will stay in the iMac for now. But if you're right on that density issue, everything else you say makes sense.

(BTW: I spent lots of time in Iowa City about 5 years ago. Had much fun. )

Here's another great mockup at www.acorncreative.tv/imac2.html

[lee vieira]

Originally posted by &lt;IBMer&gt;:
<STRONG>As to those who say that Apple can't sell an LCD iMac for $100, I've seen the Gateway Profile 2 (a flat screen all in one) for $650, and IBM Netvista All-In ones for $1000. Search the web and you'll see....</STRONG>

I did, and you seem to be a bit confused.

First off, the Gateway LCD-all-in-one appears to go for $1,600+, not $650(perhaps someone left a '1' off of that pricetag you saw?):
http://www.zdnet.com/products/storie...191432,00.html
http://www.cognigen-pc.com/gateway_p...cogid=cognigen

If you go to Gateway's site, now they're pushing a Profile 3 LCD-all-in-one that 'starts at only $1,799'.

Far as the IBM LCD-all-in-ones, go, not all of their NetVistas are LCD all-in-ones, most of them are regular desktops, at least all of the low-cost ones are. If you check out
http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/netvista/index.html

you'll see that their cheapest LCD all-in-one goes for $1,262.55...and that's a CD-ROM model, no CD-RW. Their better LCD all-in-ones are in the $1,700 range.

Another confusing thing about IBM's NetVista line is that they ALSO make so called 'thin client' NetVistas that are built around 233MHz processors and the like(i.e. crap), and they show a picture of them WITH AN LCD, but with small type it says 'Monitor not included'. Pretty misleading.

The prices on these are very reasonable, but hey, with a 233MHz cpu and no monitor, you'd expect that, wouldn't ya?

Bottom line: NOBODY makes a truly cheap LCD all-in-one desktop yet. Why? Because they can't. They will when LCD prices drop more, or when someone's ballsy enough to try to release a desktop LCD all-in-one with a tiny LCD(like 12.1").

As I've maintained all along, Apple CAN make an LCD iMac, but they'd have to sacrifice the low-end model and the sub-$1000 market to do it...unless they have a new, very cheap, desktop product coming along to replace the iMac in the $1000-and-under market.

Still, it seems ridiculous. Say Apple matches IBM's pricing...we'd be talking about $1260 or so for a CD-ROM LCD-iMac, and if we wanted CD-RW or combo drives and a cool video card, we'd up to $1,499+ in no time. Wheee.

Btw, I heard from someone that the settlement that Apple has with eMachines that allows eMachines to make 'iMac lookalikes' doesn't take effect until 2005(i.e. well after LCD prices will have dropped). Does anyone have the skinny on this?

--lee

[ 06-10-2001: Message edited by: lee vieira ]

[jtg]

O.K.! I agree that $500 may no longer be the magic number for Apple, at least not for a full blown computer.

I would like to see an Apple internet machine. Yes, APPLE, not Macintosh. A slick parallel to the high end 'boom box' stereos or entertainment center. Heck, call it the iApple Home Center and price it at $599.

Same form factor as current iMacs, 15" monitor w. higher rez.
400 mHz G3
1 FireWire
1 USB
CD
128 Megs RAM
56K Modem with One year bare bones ISP
No HD (upgradeable to one as option)
Some removable storage built-in (eg. 250 ZIP or ?) to take the small amount of mail, basic Appleworks docs etc.

New iMacs
New design 16" monitor in wide screen aspect ratio. Wider than current but not quite as tall. Not really flat screen, but shallower than standard monitors.
New form factor, something less rounded, more hard edged and futuristc, low to the tabletop with the monitor tilted back about 15�.

Two models

iMac 600
600 mHz G3
2 FireWire
2 USB
CD/DV
128 Megs RAM
56K Modem
30 gig HD
$999 (Mew Magic Number)


iMac 800
800 mHz G3
2 FireWire
2 USB
CDR/DV
192 Megs RAM
56K Modem
60 gig HD
$1399

iMac 800 SE
800 mHz G3
2 FireWire
4 USB
Superdrive DV-R/CD-R
256 Megs RAM
56K Modem
$1799

Cube with 15" Studio Display (Flat Screen)
1899

Cube with 17" Studio Display (Flat Screen)
2499

jtg

[Nimisys]

i got an idea...


front...

Front angle...

Rear...

basicaly take the current iBook...strip out the HDD and CDROM, Battery ect... either integrate the cube power supply or use it externally, the Pioneer SuperDrive (i thnks its around 350$ for PC's so take some more off that) as a push to popup drive (thats why you don't see it from the front view), place flat panel speaker on the rear deck (they are really cheap now), integrate a usb and firewire hubs into the design to give 4-5 usb and firewire ports, making it perfect for the home user and give it some added upgradibility... put RCA out plugs on it (not digital but allows easy convergence with exsisting tv's, vcr's, stereo's...) and then the standard 2x Rj232 and RJ-45 plugs... call it the connection strip.

basicly take the core of the iBook (including screen) and use that as your basis for the next iMac... not much needed for R&D or new product lines and it allows you to set them up as companion products...a desktop and mobile for under 3k.

[waffffffle]

How about a flat CRT????

That could be very very cool. Think about the possibilities. I think that's what we'll be seeing this summer. And iMacs at close to 1Ghz G3s (right behind whatever the G4 is at).


Oh and iTunes will include all the tools necessary to broadcast an internet radio station (hopefully these iMacs will have audio-in ports!!!! Please please Apple don't take this away from us!!!!!)


Hey we all have dreams.

[lee vieira]

Originally posted by waffffffle:
<STRONG>How about a flat CRT????

That could be very very cool. Think about the possibilities. I think that's what we'll be seeing this summer. And iMacs at close to 1Ghz G3s (right behind whatever the G4 is at).

</STRONG>

A truly flat CRT would be nice, I agree. But 1GHz G3s by MWNY next month seem very unlikely.

IBM just started producing 700MHz G3 cpus in volume in May, I believe. Best I think we can hope for with the next iMac rev is 733, and that's only if the new iMac has a 133MHz bus, otherwise 700 will likely be the top new iMac.

G4 is a different story, due to the 7450 design...reportedly 866s or even 933s will be intro'd @ MWNY.

c

[ajprice]

I really like this detachable screen & base station idea. How about if the screen section was a slimline laptop (like those really thin Vaio's) in itself with a reversable screen you can flip around to make a touchscreen mac or open as a conventional laptop. The main drives and ports could then be on the base and communicate to the screen/laptop through Airport when it's detached. I'm scribbling already, stay tuned.

[Nimisys]

i thought about that excepet that 802.1 is still slower than 10BaseT and todays devises move faster than Gigabit-Eithernet, which means that the wireless connection WILL KILL performance to the point where some things such as CDR and DVDR burning won't be possible do to lack of bandwidth same with playing CD's... basicly all drives need to be in the same base as the Mobo and CPU. i don't know how much info is sent to the monitor so it very well could be wireless. But the keyboard and mouse will be first. Possibl;y with speakers second...

As for the screen thing i thought about it in my concepet excepet that if you get it TOO portable and small you risk the iBook sales... so the iMac must appear to be a desktop box.

[lee vieira]

Originally posted by Nimisys:
<STRONG>i thought about that excepet that 802.1 is still slower than 10BaseT and todays devises move faster than Gigabit-Eithernet, which means that the wireless connection WILL KILL performance to the point where some things such as CDR and DVDR burning won't be possible do to lack of bandwidth same with playing CD's... basicly all drives need to be in the same base as the Mobo and CPU. i don't know how much info is sent to the monitor so it very well could be wireless. But the keyboard and mouse will be first. Possibl;y with speakers second...
</STRONG>

Airport base stations transmit at up to 11Mbps peak, which is fast enough for lots of things, and supposedly newer ones are coming out which will transmit at 45Mbps (Mbps= megaBITS, not megaBYTES).

You might say, "Well, that's nowhere near as fast as a Firewire or ATA/100 HD", and you'd be right, but...so what? Zip drives are slower than 45Mbps yet people still use 'em. And that kind of bandwidth is beyond what CD burners can fully use right now.

Even 11Mbps is about the same bandwidth as USB, and lots of people use USB peripherals.

The bigger problem, far as I can tell, is that while the Airport station can transmit adequately fast, it costs a lot...like $300 for the base station and $100 for the receiver card.

Plus, you'd also need a laptop-type battery for any detachable LCD screen...that's like $100 more too.

Which kinda sucks, because I'd really like to own a product like this one

c

[Nimisys]

problem is that USB is to slow for HDD and or burners... PLUS you have to realize that the 1.375MBps (MegaBytes/Second) bandwidth provided by airport would have to be shared amoung all the external devises... Even the 5.2MegaBytes/second speed of the 45mbps Airport would still be too slow. for example a Toshiba MD1212 6X DVD can read 8.1MB/s off of DVD and 4.8MB/s from CD (about 32x speed)...
that means a DVD would pull 155% of your availabe bandwidth (which about 60% more than you can spare) and a CD at 32X speeds would pull 92% of bandwidth allowing you a meager 3% left to work with. figure 5% in protocol overhead. Now you also want to send video signal, HDD, and Sound over the same connection? with the 45mbps AirPort you barely ahve enough to run a 32x CD-Rom by itself! let alone any other devises...

no it will be a while before you can get that level of wireless... no will accept the levels of performance we had 5-10 years ago just for the sake of a wireless tablet...thats what a laptop is for.

[captnfun]

Every few months Apple lowers the prices of their LCD displays, which is great for keeping competitive. Is it possible that MWNY would bring the 15 inch LCD down from $599 to $499?

Or introduce a 14 inch LCD for $499?

I have always liked the cube design I think Apple just shot itself in the foot over the pricing. All the R&D is done for the cube, all that needs to be done is to put a 600 or 700 Mhz G3 in it and keep the price to $500??

Intermediate iCube for $799 that includes CD-RW, and bigger HD

Then the iCube SE remains the current cube from today repriced at $999??

What do you think?

[lee vieira]

Originally posted by Nimisys:
<STRONG> Even the 5.2MegaBytes/second speed of the 45mbps Airport would still be too slow. for example a Toshiba MD1212 6X DVD can read 8.1MB/s off of DVD and 4.8MB/s from CD (about 32x speed)...

</STRONG>

That's peak, though. Sustained DVD info transfer rates seem to be considerably lower than that. A two hour movie fits on a 4.7 gig disk, with sound and bonus features to boot...you do the math.

Even a straight digital video feed is something like 3.5MB/sec... well below the 5.6MB/sec peak you'd get with the 45Mbps AP's that will be coming out.

Not saying there wouldn't be problems when you really push the bandwidth of such a system, but its more feasable than you'd think, 'cept for the cost.

--lee

[lee vieira]

Originally posted by captnfun:
<STRONG>
I have always liked the cube design I think Apple just shot itself in the foot over the pricing. All the R&D is done for the cube, all that needs to be done is to put a 600 or 700 Mhz G3 in it and keep the price to $500??

Intermediate iCube for $799 that includes CD-RW, and bigger HD

Then the iCube SE remains the current cube from today repriced at $999??

What do you think?</STRONG>

Cube's all but dead, has been for a long time. Development team laid off, and last quarter the iMac outsold it 25-1.

Apple shows no signs of being able to produce a vastly cheaper Cube, or of commiting the technical resources to do so.

Real question is, will they even keep the Cube around much longer, not whether they'll expand its role or not. Too bad, I liked the design too.

--lee

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by lee vieira:
<STRONG>

That's peak, though. Sustained DVD info transfer rates seem to be considerably lower than that. A two hour movie fits on a 4.7 gig disk, with sound and bonus features to boot...you do the math.

Even a straight digital video feed is something like 3.5MB/sec... well below the 5.6MB/sec peak you'd get with the 45Mbps AP's that will be coming out.

Not saying there wouldn't be problems when you really push the bandwidth of such a system, but its more feasable than you'd think, 'cept for the cost.

--lee</STRONG>

corect me if i am wrong but that is also compressed data... which would have to be read in compressed data chunks and therefore not a sustaine stream, which means grab chunks of data at a time transfereing as fast you can so you don't run out of data. then it get sent back in raw video format for the monitor...unfortunilty i don't know how much bandwidth the return trip takes.


so figure with just sending a straight digital bandwidth stream you use 62% of you availabe connection room. and thats only one stream... you also have to consider the constant data being sent for monitor refresh data and other OS functions in the background. computers have been strangling under the "slow" memormy and PCI buses(which include HDD, Cards, ect) that are capable of more than 5.2mb/s and we drop back to it....

right now 45mbps is still not enough it can barely support a digital video streame and can't support the peak transfer rates of 2 yr old I/O devises... we need to get to to the wireless level above 100MB/s before getting to what your considering.

[Xeo]

I like the mock-ups. Very nice. Of course, the only problem I see with AJ's is the idea for iTunes showing the visuals through the apple in the center. Nice idea, except for that to happen, the doors would have to be closed and the sound would be all muffled.

I liked the idea of making them slide out. Then the speakers could always face out.

Nimisys. I liked your idea. It looked cool and more usable (ie. the components are horizontal so accessing the CD would be a normal process.

I think the LCD iMac is definitely coming in the near future, I wouldn't count on it for MWNY. As most are saying, it's too costly. Although, I think Steve really wants an LCD iMac. He ditched the CRTs everywhere else on the line. I dunno, we'll have to wait and see what's up.

Someone explain to me the "flat CRT" you guys were talking about? I don't really understand how that would work (or why it would be better).