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bbxstudio · Feb 25, 2003, 03:58 PM

We've all heard about the recent troubles this 'Aqua for XP' guy is having... has anybody given any thought to what Apple's next steps might be?

I know this is probably going to piss some people off - but I really honestly truly believe that NOBODY, not even Mac guys like Max (god bless his soul), should be recreating (let alone tweaking or modifying) 'Aqua' or 'QuickTime' or distributing any styles derived or adapted from Apple's original designs - period.

By toying with Apple's intellectual property so blatantly (and even slapping a �2003 so-and-so in there), designers who do this really are playing with fire... not only are they a visible target for personal (and arguably justified) litigation from Apple - they're actually seriously endangering the future of theming on OSX. All it would take is a few tweaks of code in a point release and it would be 'goodbye to themes on OSX'. Yes, the resource framework we build our themes into is also Apple's intellectual property - but they're a thousand times more likely to overlook our hacking efforts if we're only using their framework to support original designs rather than bastardized versions of their own. We don't know what Apple's stance on all this is yet... and until we do, we should tread carefully. This recent crack-down on this XP guy does not bode well.

I think we seriously need to ask ourselves if having 'variant' themes like SmoothStripes and Brushed around are really worth bringing about a potentially very real end to theming in OSX? Do we really want to sacrifice what could be a bright future filled with original exciting designs, new discoveries (and the inevitable upcoming 'golden age' once the ball gets rolling) for a few rehashed Apple designs in the pioneering stage of the game?

Lets face it - aside from some well-executed adaptations by Max and very few others, most of the Aqua adaptations floating around are inconsistent piss-poor hacks... hardly worth sacrificing the future of the entire community and effort for. I honestly think the talent and effort these designers pour into tweaking Apple's designs could be better spent creating 100% truly original designs.

If we want to do this right and responsibly (and ensure that there is indeed a future in this stuff on our beloved platform), we should police ourselves, take the initiative, and do the following:

1. Cease developing and retire existing Apple-derived designs. They'll always live on underground, but they need to be removed from the limelight... we should also discourage the creation or distribution of batantly-derivative designs based on Apple's intellectual property for the forseeable future... as a community - it's for our own good.

2. Stop messing with bootX and executables that really f*ck with user's systems... it sucks that the entire user experience from start to finish can't be customized, but all it will take is a few too many tech support calls to Apple with theme-derived damage and they WILL pull the plug.

Now is the time when we should take steps towards ensuring that there will be a future in theming OSX - look to the long-term versus the short term. And the ball is in the theme developer's court. I know from a developer's perspective that it gets pretty addictive being showered with kudos and praise and adoration, the effects are cumulative and you just want more and more... but are the short term effects really worth the price we all pay if Apple starts to take offense? I hardly think so...

codywalton · Feb 25, 2003, 04:15 PM

this wouldn't be such a problem if Steve would just stop being a prick and let us have an official way to implement themes, as they did with 8.5 (almost). Apple could then release it's own variations on Aqua so everyone who wants smoothstripes or brushed metal would be satisfied and nobody would get sued.

...of course i guess that doesn't help the folks on XP...they're still s.o.l.

bOOzo · Feb 25, 2003, 04:25 PM

Hey bbx. I understand your concern, but do you really think it's that serious? I have had SmoothStripes available for over a year, and I think if they have a problem with it, they would have contacted me already.

I have also removed all BootX files from my themes, so now they should not mess up users computers..

bbxstudio · Feb 25, 2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by codywalton:
this wouldn't be such a problem if Steve would just stop being a prick and let us have an official way to implement themes, as they did with 8.5 (almost). Apple could then release it's own variations on Aqua so everyone who wants smoothstripes or brushed metal would be satisfied and nobody would get sued.

...of course i guess that doesn't help the folks on XP...they're still s.o.l.

You're right that it's absurd that Apple produces this 32-bit UI framework and doesn't take advantage of it's rabid and highly talented fan base of interface hackers... but I don't see this changing any time soon - the onus is still on us to lay low with Apple-derived themes at this point. It ain't fair but it's the right (and safest) thing to do, unfortunately.

unlinear · Feb 25, 2003, 04:42 PM

I'm agreeing on the point about theming and executables. However, speaking from the point of view of someone who's (with permission, and on request) outfitted all our OS X systems with SmoothStripes, SmoothStripes is worth the risk. It's a dead solid update to a nice OS that makes it look like a _great_ OS.

If you mean things like DarkAqua, yeah. I'm agreeing. Theming has come to this point where stability of the system is threathened; that threat might make Apple kick into gear with legal efforts.

bbxstudio · Feb 25, 2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Hey bbx. I understand your concern, but do you really think it's that serious? I have had SmoothStripes available for over a year, and I think if they have a problem with it, they would have contacted me already.

I have also removed all BootX files from my themes, so now they should not mess up users computers..

Aqua on XP has been available for a long time and suddenly WHAM... they're cracking down - make no mistake... they can't squish this PC guy and ignore what's happening under their own noses. The same thing happened when Aqua was first unveiled a few years ago - they hit the PC guys first and then the guys building Aqua-derived schemes in Kaleidoscope got nailed right after... this is wave#2. Besides, do you really want to take that chance? They won't actually sue you, but their lawyers will ask you to stop and if they're pushed far enough, Apple will take steps with their code to prevent theming altogether. Theming is a fringe thing - the majority of their user base wouldn't even notice, so I wouldn't put it past them at all.

Good move on the bootX thing, btw... it ticks me off as much as the next guy that it had to happen, but it's for the greater good. Unfortunately, so is avoiding stepping on Apple's intellectual property. If theming becomes legitimized or semi-supported/officially tolerated in some way eventually, the heat will dissipate exponentially. I really think the Apple-derived stuff should go underground for the forseeable future. If Apple pulls the plug on us, it won't be the stuff like Milk or Mercury or Watercolor that did us in - it'll be stuff like Smoothstripes and Brushed more likely.

bbxstudio · 05:00 PM

Originally posted by unlinear:
I'm agreeing on the point about theming and executables. However, speaking from the point of view of someone who's (with permission, and on request) outfitted all our OS X systems with SmoothStripes, SmoothStripes is worth the risk. It's a dead solid update to a nice OS that makes it look like a _great_ OS.

So your happiness with SmoothStripes is worth the risk of losing it all? Not only existing Aqua-derivative themes but also the untold original themes down the road if Apple pulls the ability to theme the system altogether? I agree that Max should be working at Apple - his work is very tight and consistent - but I don't think Apple is going to take the quality of his or anybody else's execution into consideration if they decide to get nasty. I'm not saying these things shouldn't be used at all - I'm just saying they should become near-invisible unless you know where to look for them. For the time-being in any case.

macmike42 · Feb 25, 2003, 05:01 PM

I gotta admit. I'm glad I waited to hear some others before I called bbxstudio a knee-jerk reactionist nutbag

. You really do have a very good point, bbxstudio. For what it's worth, I now agree and think every Aqua-alike and BrushedMetal-alike should be pulled off websites quickly and (probably more importantly) *quietly*.

bOOzo · Feb 25, 2003, 05:35 PM

Aren't you being a bit paranoid? Even if they did ask me to cease and desist, I don't think they would change the OS to prevent themes..

p-wonderland · Feb 25, 2003, 05:43 PM

One half of me totally agrees with Willy but the irrational, spoiled brat in me just want to put my hads over my ears and scream "I'm not listening to you!"

I honestly wonder if Max's SmoothStripes Gloss version may piss Apple off for another reason completly -

- Where else can they go with Aqua?

Max's "re-design" is quite possibly a direction they would go when updating Aqua which is looking pretty dated.. soooooo 2001!

I just reinstalled 10.2 on my powerbook and had to suffer the original striped Aqua for a couple of hours until I got to the point where I could get my themes back up. Apple should just implement themes and buy both Willy and Max's themes. SmoothStripe to replace Aqua, Mackaraina, Machagura. that new one.

swiz · Feb 25, 2003, 06:00 PM

Even if Apple did confront Max with a cease and decist and future development (if any) were stopped, the current incarnations of those themes are totally solid and the droves of Max fans will always provide anyone who requests a copy of the themes.

bbxstudio · Feb 25, 2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Aren't you being a bit paranoid? Even if they did ask me to cease and desist, I don't think they would change the OS to prevent themes..

Am I? I admit I've served up a worst-case scenario here - but it is something that needs to be discussed, I think. Maybe it won't go as far as Apple stopping OSX theming via code changes (as long as you don't screw customer's systems via bootX and the like, you're probably safe - probably, but who knows with Steve at the helm... he's very protective of Apple's property and likes the final say in what's what).

But I do know that the last time they served the PC side the ol' cease and desist, they served the Mac guys shortly afterwards. It's likely you'll be hearing from them before long, seeing as your themes are the most popular and highly visible Aqua mutations (probably doesn't help that you've got a �Max Rudberg in there either, hehe).

I'm not trying to give you a hard time or anything Max, honest... I'm also not trying to stir up sh*t - but you should be aware that you are actually as much in violation of Apple's copyrights as this PC guy was - and probably directly in line for your own cease and desist order, especially if past history has any bearing in how things go from here.

It's really up to you and the guys developing these derivative themes as to what you do now - but think about it, with all of the Aquafied mutations and adaptations floating around online, Apple's easiest solution would simply be to code us out en masse and kill theming altogether. I'm not saying they will, but it is a real possibility that requires some consideration - that's all I'm saying.

Again, I'm not trying to preach doom and gloom, I just seem to be the only one still around who was actually there for the first round of 'don't copy Aqua or we'll sue you' that Apple initiated a few years back. It started just like this.

bbxstudio · Feb 25, 2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by swiz:
Even if Apple did confront Max with a cease and decist and future development (if any) were stopped, the current incarnations of those themes are totally solid and the droves of Max fans will always provide anyone who requests a copy of the themes.

Exactly - they wouldn't need to be destroyed or anything like that... they could go underground and survive indefinitely (even enjoying mysterious regular maintenance updates in that form).

exca1ibur · Feb 25, 2003, 07:09 PM

I think the main reason the PC guys got cracked on was because they broke the laws by having Apple trademarked logos on their themes. For example the Apple logo on the fake Finder and the dock. Where as Max for example, is mainly altering Aqua into something totally new with Smoothstripes. The only debate might be the XP theme, however he has no Microsoft Windows logos on his theme, its mostly just a color and 'look' of the OS. Had the PC guys not added Apple logos and all so it looked more like a variation os OSX, they might have been ok. Hard to say.

BTW: I personally don't use themes because I don't like hacks on my system but just want to say all you guys do very good work.

Just my 2 cents.

bOOzo · Feb 25, 2003, 07:45 PM

I think you are making it sound like I should remove SS and Brushed, or I'll take the whole OS X theming community down with me. I don't think it's that bad, but I'll just wait and see if I get any mail from Apple.

The � I agree might not be so smart, but I don't use it in SmoothStripes/Aqua Extreme. I do in Brushed however, but for that theme I've created a lot of additional graphics. That might not be right anyway.. I dunno, it's mostly my attempt to keep the theme from getting modified and redistributed.

And isn't it different when a guy offers a copied GUI for the PC, and when a hardcore mac user offers variations of the GUI for the same platform?

smeger · Feb 25, 2003, 07:54 PM

There's a good way to avoid this problem, and it's something I've been advocating for quite awhile. Resource-based theme switching. A properly-executed resource-based scheme results in people only distributing the resources they've actually modified, instead of the whole package.

This gives two important benefits - smaller themes, and you're only distributing the stuff that you actually created.

Hopefully, we'll see something like this soon.

goMac · Feb 25, 2003, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by smeger:
Hopefully, we'll see something like this soon.

One could hope.

smoke-tetsu · Feb 25, 2003, 09:04 PM

I think the thing that go aqua-soft in hot water is actually mostly the aqua\iapp clones.

But still they seem to be not for theming in general. But I guess in a way I don't blame them.. they probably don't want the support issues of themes.

HOWEVER, I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions. And like I said, watercolor\luna aren't exactly public domain either.

macmike42 · Feb 25, 2003, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by goMac:
One could hope.

If this is true, I will completely retract my "*yawn*" and give full-fledged props to Colin.

bbxstudio · Feb 25, 2003, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
I think you are making it sound like I should remove SS and Brushed, or I'll take the whole OS X theming community down with me. I don't think it's that bad, but I'll just wait and see if I get any mail from Apple.

The � I agree might not be so smart, but I don't use it in SmoothStripes/Aqua Extreme. I do in Brushed however, but for that theme I've created a lot of additional graphics. That might not be right anyway.. I dunno, it's mostly my attempt to keep the theme from getting modified and redistributed.

And isn't it different when a guy offers a copied GUI for the PC, and when a hardcore mac user offers variations of the GUI for the same platform?

Sorry if I made it seem like I was singling you out, Max - I just used you as an example because your Aqua variations are the most popular... even if all the Aquafied themes DID end up playing a role in bringing about some heavy-handed reaction from Apple (always a possibiltiy - don't underestimate their interest in maintaining control of their brand identity), I don't think anybody would be saying "it's all Max Rudberg's fault". Nor would it be.

I think you've done an excellent job making people happy by giving them exactly what they want You've also strengthed general interest in the platform (not to mention pushing the envelope for the rest of us making themes). I think you're okay on the copyright if you were to say "original elements �2003 Max Rudberg, based on designs owned by Apple Computer" or something along those lines. It would certainly give their lawyers less ammo, because you wouldn't in that case be claiming any ownership over Apple's original elements.

Who knows? It may all blow over - maybe this guy DID just irk them by pushing it just a little too far... in any case I hope you don't hear anything from them at all - I just know that wasn't the case the last time they cracked down, they tend to do so in 'sweeps' if that makes any sense.

As for there being a difference based on what platform the derivative designs are created for, I think that's arguable from a moral perspective... but legally it's probably all the same to Apple. I still say it's a bad idea to be calling so much attention to this unsupported theming thing by messing with and redistributing Apple's brand identity or derivative interface designs based on Aqua.

Atomic Rooster · Feb 25, 2003, 09:48 PM

here's some trivia that may not be known to some...in 10.1 release there was to be some kind of theming introduced, to what extent i don't know and two apple designed themes included...what were they called?...well one was "snow" (stripeless) and the other was called "metal" (iAppish)...

whether in the future releases these will come about remains to be seen...

that said...THEME ON!

TheIceMan · Feb 25, 2003, 10:06 PM

bbxstudio/billy:
Wow, I was wondering about Apple's crack down on the PC side first and then possibly turning on their loyal Mac themers next. As someone who is using Max's SmoothStripe right now, I wholeheartedly admit that I LOVE his themes! I, too, hope that this will all blow over.

What exactly happened w/ Kaleidescope? What did Apple do to it?

mrtew · Feb 25, 2003, 10:33 PM

I totally disagree with the first poster. Apple has not objected to Apple theming in about two years have they? Even their constant changing of the Extras.rsrc and other files has never seemed directed towards themers, but only for their own purposes, even though they download and test every theme that's released.

Your objection to themes that look similar to Aqua/Brushed seems totally arbitrary. Why would you imagine that themes that look similar to Apple's would bother Apple more than totally original themes? If Apple has any goal in not releasing any theming tools etc, it must be to force all Apple users to use an OS on their computers that look the same - Aqua/Brushed. If you accept that to be true, then it would be themes, such as the ones by Max that you mentioned, that would offend Apple the LEAST. People the make and distribute themes that look nothing like Aqua would be the ones that would anger Steve Jobs the most and would be the ones that will destroy themeing for all of us. I hereby call for all themers to make their themes looks as MUCH like Aqua as they can, to preserve themeing for our enjoyment.

Ridiculous!

And I think there is a larger point I'd like to make. People love themes and none of us wants to give them up. (And we probably won't ever have to). But theming is about doing what we want with our computers. It's about having them look the way we want, and about helping others make their computers look the way they want. And a majority of people want their computers to look a lot like Apple intended, just a bit different. Brushed is Max's most popular theme, followed by Smooth Stripes and then by Milk which is really not THAT much different from Aqua. In other words, what's the point of preserving themeing if you are asking us to give up the whole purpose of theming? Making our computers the way we want them. Especially when you are asking us to do it based on your guess or hunch as to what Apple might or might not object to?

We have enough in this world to be alarmed about these days without you trying to alarm us with apocolyptic visions of a world where all theming is a distant memory or has become a dark art practiced underground by rogue groups of theming fugitives. Please, all themers... don't be frightened... be the carefree artists that you've always been... live, love, and most of all.... theme!

swiz · Feb 26, 2003, 01:17 AM

I'm going underground, your guys are freaking me out. Its all a conspiracy

[ begin mindless dribble ]
Its just widgets man, widgets and texture. So long as Apple doesnt encode our theme related files in some cryptic format theme development will never die. We will always find a way to get our work out there. I mean, whats the worst that could happen, release themes anonymously? That wouldnt be so bad, I just like to make my computers look a certain way and sometimes I think others might like their system to look the way I have made mine look so I release it. Im certainly not in it for the fanfare although the kind words do keep one inspired. I could still remain inspired when us theme devs become outlaws... just anonymously inspired with very vague thank you's to avoid incrimination.
[ /end mindless dribble ]

goMac · Feb 26, 2003, 01:47 AM

In my previous contacts I've had with Apple's legal consultants, they seem to have had a don't-bother-us-and-we-won't-bother-you attitude. I honestly don't think they care about themes on their own platform. After the flack they got from killing earlier theme projects, I don't think they are interested right now in having any more trouble. In actual dealings with Apple employees I have received nothing but support.

I don't think they're after us.

UNTeMac · Feb 26, 2003, 02:12 AM

Why is themeing different than what Kaleidescope does to Mac OS 9? Why didn't Arlo get a cease and desist letter with the 1.0 release?

mrgaskell · Feb 26, 2003, 02:55 AM

I could of swore that Apple had ThemeChanger on their OS X downloads page the other day.

Mediaman_12 · Feb 26, 2003, 06:01 AM

There is a vast differance between what the AquaXP folks where dooing and creating OSX themes. The AquaXP people where taking Apples OSX apps & features and (porly) recreating them on another platform. This (in a small way) removes an 'Apple advantage' of if you want apps like this get a Mac.
The Theming comunity isn't 'removing' any 'Apple advantage' these people have bought Apple Computers (and are more likely to keep buying Apple stuff). Apple may have 'issues' with the themes including there intellectual property. But the Themes are only going to be used by people who already own OSX (and thus the licence to have Apples intellectual property on there computer). The Aqua apps from AquaXP Included loads of unaltered Apple intellectual property and where/ are being used by people who never spent a penny with Apple

bOOzo · Feb 26, 2003, 06:49 AM

bbx - no problem, I see what you mean. The "original elements �2003 Max Rudberg, based on designs owned by Apple Computer" is also a good idea.

And I agree with smeger that a resource based theme format would rock! And I hope whatever goMac is up to will be just that.

Kujo · Feb 26, 2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Hey bbx. I understand your concern, but do you really think it's that serious? I have had SmoothStripes available for over a year, and I think if they have a problem with it, they would have contacted me already.

I have also removed all BootX files from my themes, so now they should not mess up users computers..

they dont have a prooblem with it Max b/c you help them get ideas.. look what they did with the widgets in iapps now..hmm wonder where i have seen that before..

bbxstudio · Feb 26, 2003, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by mrtew:
I totally disagree with the first poster. Apple has not objected to... We have enough in this world to be alarmed about these days without you trying to alarm us with apocolyptic visions of a world where all theming is a distant memory or has become a dark art practiced underground by rogue groups of theming fugitives. Please, all themers... don't be frightened... be the carefree artists that you've always been... live, love, and most of all.... theme!

Aha! A voice of reason! Every argument needs a good opposing viewpoint for balance and you make some very strong arguments here. Maybe you're right - I certainly hope so

Looking back I think the worst-case scenario approach in my initial argument was maybe not the best way to give everybody a heads-up... believe me, I WANT to be convinced otherwise. So look - I hope this all blows over and we can all go on in peace, just like everybody else.

Again, when I heard about this PC guy it brought to mind the 'great Aqua crackdown sweep of 2000', when Apple nicked the PC guys first and then the loyal Mac guys right afterwards. It could be that they saw Kaleidoscope versions of Aqua as a threat to their imposed migration of their user base to OSX... Aqua might have been considered a carrot they could dangle in front of the masses. It could be very well true that they no longer see guys like Max as a threat at all and even like his stuff

Let's be realistic, though - you know the PC guys are going to scream 'foul' and point to the Aquafied wierdness on the Mac side of the fence when Apple is using terms like 'intellectual property' and 'brand identity' - whether their argument will point Apple's sights in this direction has yet to be seen... let's hope not. Again, all I'm saying guys is this - in the past they DID hit the Mac guys too. Sure, they've left Aqua mutations alone for a couple of years on the Mac, but they've also left the PC guys alone in that time too.

So as it stands there are good arguments both for and against laying low with the Aquafied stuff until we know how it all pans out... We'll just have to see what happens, I guess.

And for the record, I really don't think (and although one can never be 100% certain, I probably should have kept my mouth shut on speculating this point - my bad - flame at will) this will end with the death of theming brought about by code from Apple's end. But as much as I hate to say it, part of me is still thinking they may crack down on Aqua variations Mac-side... again, let's hope I'm wrong.

Great banter on all this, though

Nothing like a good argument to get people thinking - sign of a healthy community!

bbxstudio · Feb 26, 2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by goMac:
In my previous contacts I've had with Apple's legal consultants, they seem to have had a don't-bother-us-and-we-won't-bother-you attitude. I honestly don't think they care about themes on their own platform. After the flack they got from killing earlier theme projects, I don't think they are interested right now in having any more trouble. In actual dealings with Apple employees I have received nothing but support.

I don't think they're after us.

Whew! Well, that's helpful

I feel better (really). Let's all relax, then... looks like we may be out of the woods (just keep in mind that Apple legal may have to deal with conflicting agendas - let's hope the benevolence from management towards tolerable infringement has been clearly expressed to legal).

bbxstudio · Feb 26, 2003, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by Kujo:
they dont have a prooblem with it Max b/c you help them get ideas.. look what they did with the widgets in iapps now..hmm wonder where i have seen that before..

Yeah, Max is one of their most valuable assets

And he's not the first independant Mac guy to inspire their OS design - Aqua's rife with ideas, shapes and surfaces that first appeared in popular Kaleidoscope themes. It may very well be that they need guys like Max and aknowledge as much internally.

bbxstudio · Feb 26, 2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
[B]bbx - no problem, I see what you mean. The "original elements �2003 Max Rudberg, based on designs owned by Apple Computer" is also a good idea. B]

Do that Max and your ass is covered legally (even though we've all technically violated our software license agreements, hehe). Like I said in my read me for your Mercury port, you're like a GUI superDJ... everybody want's to see Max Rudberg's take on things. Sorry if I freaked you out - just wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't say something, knowing what I know (which admittedly is based on past events and may not apply any more). At least your ass is covered if you change your copyrights - that struck me as being a really big flag.

And I agree with smeger that a resource based theme format would rock! And I hope whatever goMac is up to will be just that.

That would be cool - now all we need is K2-level control over layout and a few new resources like borders and we're hitting the 'golden age'. Still a ways off though, I'm afraid.

bbxstudio · Feb 26, 2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
There is a vast differance between what the AquaXP folks where dooing and creating OSX themes. The AquaXP people where taking Apples OSX apps & features and (porly) recreating them on another platform.
The Theming comunity isn't 'removing' any 'Apple advantage' these people have bought Apple Computers (and are more likely to keep buying Apple stuff).

Good argument

You make a good point. Let's hope Apple does see it that way.

bbxstudio · Feb 26, 2003, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
Why is themeing different than what Kaleidescope does to Mac OS 9? Why didn't Arlo get a cease and desist letter with the 1.0 release?

Aha! But they DID have a legal tussle - Apple had some major issues at first and accused Arlo of implementing trade secrets... don't remember what happened but of course it all worked out in the end. Why do you think there's no Kaleidoscope for OSX? Rumour has it that Apple made it clear to them that it wouldn't look favourably on a K3 release for OSX.

bbxstudio · Feb 26, 2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by TheIceMan:
bbxstudio/billy:
What exactly happened w/ Kaleidescope? What did Apple do to it?

They tried to stop the 1.0 release, but they all worked it out in the end (again, not clear on details). But I think you're referring to the crackdown I mentioned. What happened was this: Apple unveiled Aqua at Macworld - within weeks dozens of bad PC ports based on screenshots (and graphics lifted from Apple's website) hit the web... a few Mac Kaleidoscope schemes were released as well, with a really good one from Maury at RailHead design - Apple served the PC guys (and host sites like Stardock, etc) the ol' cease and desist and then did the same a few days later with the Mac guys. Nobody fought it, the Aqua K2 schemes went underground and are still available if you know where to look... that's it, pretty much.

bbxstudio · Feb 26, 2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
here's some trivia that may not be known to some...in 10.1 release there was to be some kind of theming introduced, to what extent i don't know and two apple designed themes included...what were they called?...well one was "snow" (stripeless) and the other was called "metal" (iAppish)...

whether in the future releases these will come about remains to be seen...

that said...THEME ON!

Talk about opening a can of worms !!!! =D

How do you know this? I heard themes were going to be implemented as well, but I blew it off as 'well, we'll see'... but I never heard that they had names and such - care to elaborate?

macmike42 · Feb 26, 2003, 09:56 AM

Banned! All of you! You are all banned for life!

</Comic Book Guy>

codywalton · Feb 26, 2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
here's some trivia that may not be known to some...in 10.1 release there was to be some kind of theming introduced, to what extent i don't know and two apple designed themes included...what were they called?...well one was "snow" (stripeless) and the other was called "metal" (iAppish)...

whether in the future releases these will come about remains to be seen...

that said...THEME ON!

that is, as my grampa would say, "Bull hockey"

UNTeMac · Feb 26, 2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
What happened was this: Apple unveiled Aqua at Macworld - within weeks dozens of bad PC ports based on screenshots (and graphics lifted from Apple's website) hit the web... a few Mac Kaleidoscope schemes were released as well, with a really good one from Maury at RailHead design - Apple served the PC guys (and host sites like Stardock, etc) the ol' cease and desist and then did the same a few days later with the Mac guys. Nobody fought it, the Aqua K2 schemes went underground and are still available if you know where to look... that's it, pretty much.

Well that's certainly a violation. I don't have any sympathy for people who directly copy or mimic Apple's work. If your theme is original however, like the thousands of K schemes still out there, why does Apple have any right to tell you you can't be creative?

iRebound · Feb 26, 2003, 01:34 PM

aqua soft made windows look and act like a mac. they made an aqua like theme and iApp like application. that will make less users wanting to switch.

i don't think apple will stop mac users from making themes completely because it's on their own platform.

even if apple did stop max from making the smoothstripes theme, what makes you think that they won't stop all the themes completely?

i'm not really worrying...

Chuckit · Feb 26, 2003, 02:13 PM

Criminy. What sort of twisting would Apple have to go through in order to "pull the plug" on people hacking the system software? I mean, if they're hacking the system software in the first place, you can't very well count on the system software to prevent them from doing it.

Zimphire · Feb 26, 2003, 02:37 PM

I still have hope Apple might support themes one of these days.

If not, At least give us a tasteful GUI.

iRebound · Feb 26, 2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If not, At least give us a tasteful GUI.

Aqua is a tasteful GUI, they can't just change the UI every year. There's gotta be some consistency

Zimphire · Feb 26, 2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by iRebound:
Aqua is a tasteful GUI, they can't just change the UI every year. There's gotta be some consistency

I guess that is personal opinion. I don't deem pin stripes and jelly colored widgets tasteful.

Brushed is tasteful, OS 9 was tasteful, Rhapsody was also.

bbxstudio · Feb 26, 2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I guess that is personal opinion. I don't deem pin stripes and jelly colored widgets tasteful.

Brushed is tasteful, OS 9 was tasteful, Rhapsody was also.

I find Aqua more tasteful than Brushed, OS0 or Rhapsody (not to mention Luna or the scary stuff that dominates the PC). I could live with Aqua for quite some time if I had to.

swiz · Feb 26, 2003, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
I find Aqua more tasteful than Brushed, OS0 or Rhapsody (not to mention Luna or the scary stuff that dominates the PC). I could live with Aqua for quite some time if I had to.

Not to get too far off topic but my main problem with Aqua is the traffic light widgets. The colors and metaphor of them seem like an off the cuff gimmick which should have never made it into the GUI design. Sure the metaphor is easy to "get" but I feel the old Circular Blue Widget "theme" was a necessary addition to make Aqua really feel tight.

TheIceMan · Feb 27, 2003, 01:29 AM

Ok, let's see if I could chime in on this Aqua is ugly discussion. Hehehe. As someone who "switched" back in Oct. 2002 (my brother did too a month or two before me). We were, initially, drawn to OSX because of Aqua.

<Entire GUI forum is silent, Swiz, BBxStudio, Max, and the other great themers pass out>

I know. I can't explain it. It was something about the way it looked. And yes, the "stop light widgets" had some sort of trance over me and my brother. It was as if Apple was dracula and we were his victims!

Looking back, I still don't know why I was drawn to Aqua. But whatever it was (and as much as some hate it), many of us switched to the Mac BECAUSE of Aqua. Crazy I know.

Just so you know, I'm using SmoothStripe right now (which is like a much more refined Aqua).

mrtew · Feb 27, 2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by TheIceMan:
Ok, let's see if I could chime in on this Aqua is ugly discussion. Hehehe. As someone who "switched" back in Oct. 2002 (my brother did too a month or two before me). We were, initially, drawn to OSX because of Aqua.

Well I'm sure a LOT of people were impressed with Aqua at first. I had an OS9 Aqua theme long before OSX was released; 10.0.0 final, anyway. At first it was so cool to be using the 'future' MacOS I didn't really critique the cool new look. Very soon however the stripes really started to bug me and make the type very hard to read expecially since it used to be very blurry looking on an LCD. Then the color of the blue bubbles everywhere started to really get old, and finally other themes started coming out and I realized how much better most of them looked. I agree with you that Aqua draws people to OSX, but it just can't keep them once they see what else is out there in the way of themes.