[greenamp]

Why is this all over the news? Did I fall asleep when the UBER DEATH TYPE X flu strain was discovered? Why am I seeing pictures of healthy young adults lined up for flu shots?

What gives?

[BlueSky]

Shhh. They're actually lined up for a secret ballot. We'll let you know when it's over.

[Captain Obvious]

Nothing, its just like shark summer. A tiny story becomes a huge deal for no reason but the media wants it to. I am sure the people who need the shots would have gotten them if the media wouldn't have started a huge panic over it. Now people who wouldn't have given it a second thought want to get one just to be one of the few.

I guess no pregnant women have gone missing lately so they had to pick up on something.

[Spliffdaddy]

4 (already sick) people might die if we don't distribute six hundred million flu shots.

What they forget to tell you is that the current flu vaccine is only effective against 2 of the countless influenza strains.

[tie]

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm

Every year in the United States, approximately 36,000 people die from the flu. Some people care. Bush doesn't. Spliffdaddy says "we just don't care."

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
What they forget to tell you is that the current flu vaccine is only effective against 2 of the countless influenza strains.

Link? The CDC says, "Most of the influenza viruses that have been isolated so far in the United States are well matched to the strains contained in this year's vaccine." According to their weekly report, at least 31 of 36 strains isolated from May to September are protected against by the 2004-05 vaccine (and possibly more; the page isn't clear). Or are you just saying again that you don't care about medical science, and will believe what you want?

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by tie:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm

Every year in the United States, approximately 36,000 people die from the flu. Some people care. Bush doesn't.

Blah blah blah, I am missing the point, blah, blah

No seriously, are you trying to look bad?
1996: 53 million doses were taken
2000: 75.3 million doses were available, scaled back from 85 in 1999
2004:~ 51 Million doses are available

Why so few? Because 50 million doses from Chiron in Liverpool, England were screwed up by their lab. If profit were the motive we would have bought them all from US drug companies so they made the money since the price is negotiated before hand not after this news came out.
But anyway, how many here remember the other flu vaccination crisis's?

From the 2003 flu shot shortage:
*********************************
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...flu-usat_x.htm
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Friday that all 83 million doses of vaccine made for this flu season have been distributed. But because more people than usual were vaccinated in October and November, doctors in some regions may run out.

"It's unprecedented," Len Lavenda, with flu vaccine maker Aventis, said Saturday. The company produces more than half the nation's vaccine supply. "We cannot remember running out. In most years, we destroy millions of doses of vaccine" because they go unused
*********************************

This year we had planned for almost 17 million more than last year, and 25 million more than the last time someone else was President, to cover the unusual demand until someone in Europe screwed up. Unless you have some secret way to speed up the normal 4 month creation process I suggest you post something of value somewhere else. But let's go on because this health crisis could only happen with this administration.....

From the 2000 Flu Shot Shortage
**********************************
http://www.bizjournals.com/southflor...8/daily16.html
Problems with the production of flu vaccine have delayed distribution and may lead to a shortage of vaccine this Fall, affecting millions of Americans who plan on receiving their annual flu shot, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
**********************************

Oh wait, winter of 2000?? But George W. Bush wasn't sworn in until January of 2001. So maybe this flu shortage story isn't as scary as it sounds. Maybe its huge idiots like, well I think we know who those people are, who are blowing this out of proportion. Maybe if we let the elderly and those most susceptible get their shots and the media didn't turn this into a big deal everyone would be as safe as any other year. Hmmmmm.... crazy thought huh.

[James L]

The validity of people getting the flu shot is without question solid. People with weakened immune systems do die from the flu, every season. When the flu shot is made it is based off of the most common strains of the flu expected in a given flu season. Healthy, young to late middle age people are not usually at risk (unless they have an autoimmune disease that has weakened their system), however they can carry the disease quite easily, often without getting sick, to those who are at risk.

Where I live the shot is given away for free to every health care worker, teacher, child care worker, daycare worker, caregiver of the eldery, etc. Very few, if any, of these people would be at risk of a life threatening condition, however they daily work around those who could be (children under the age of 2, people with immunity compromise, the eldery), so they are vaccinated to prevent spread of the disease as much as anything else.

Now, your media has gone nuts, don't get me wrong, but some of the young people you see getting their shot could be valid. The rest are just media sheep of course!

[Millennium]

Originally posted by tie:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm

Every year in the United States, approximately 36,000 people die from the flu. Some people care. Bush doesn't. Spliffdaddy says "we just don't care."

What makes you think he doesn't care? Because he doesn't magically conjure up several million nonexistent doses of the flu?

The fact is, most people don't need this vaccine, and there is still enough for those who do need it (healthcare workers, teachers, childcare and elderly-care workers, and so forth). This will fizzle out, having not been all that much worse than last year, and by then we'll have forgotten all about the media hysteria.

[tie]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
From the 2000 Flu Shot Shortage
**********************************
http://www.bizjournals.com/southflor...8/daily16.html
Problems with the production of flu vaccine have delayed distribution and may lead to a shortage of vaccine this Fall, affecting millions of Americans who plan on receiving their annual flu shot, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
**********************************

Oh wait, winter of 2000?? But George W. Bush wasn't sworn in until January of 2001. So maybe this flu shortage story isn't as scary as it sounds. Maybe its huge idiots like, well I think we know who those people are, who are blowing this out of proportion. Maybe if we let the elderly and those most susceptible get their shots and the media didn't turn this into a big deal everyone would be as safe as any other year. Hmmmmm.... crazy thought huh.

I don't understand why Bush not yet being sworn in the winter of 2000 makes the flu shortage less serious? But anyway, thanks for making my point. There have been several shortages in fact in the last few years. Bush has had four years to fix the problem -- which is very well-documented -- and hasn't done anything. (For example, the US relies on two manufacturers for its flu vaccine, the UK has seven.) The president's job is to fix things, not to wait for crisis.

Originally posted by Millennium:
The fact is, most people don't need this vaccine, and there is still enough for those who do need it (healthcare workers, teachers, childcare and elderly-care workers, and so forth). This will fizzle out, having not been all that much worse than last year, and by then we'll have forgotten all about the media hysteria.

This is inaccurate. It is important that more people get vaccinated than just those who are at highest risk. A vaccinated population will reduce the severity of any outbreak.

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
But let's go on because this health crisis could only happen with this administration.....

No seriously, are you trying to look bad? My point again is that this current crisis was entirely preventable. We had plenty of warning, but this administration didn't fix the problem.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by greenamp:
Why is this all over the news? Did I fall asleep when the UBER DEATH TYPE X flu strain was discovered? Why am I seeing pictures of healthy young adults lined up for flu shots?

What gives?

Two words: TALKING POINTS.

End of story.
Maury

[djohnson]

I have never gotten a flu shot and probably never will. My grandparents do get them though. About 5 years back, right after getting the shot, my granddad got the flu. Go figure that the vaccine they give to prevent the flu gave im the flu.

[itai195]

What I wonder is how this issue speaks to the Bush administration's fears of importing drugs from other nations. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to say that but outsource half of our flu vaccine supply to England? And isn't it notable that British authorities discovered the problem, indicating that other countries are perfectly capable of monitoring the quality of drugs?

[greenamp]

Originally posted by djohnson:
I have never gotten a flu shot and probably never will. My grandparents do get them though. About 5 years back, right after getting the shot, my granddad got the flu. Go figure that the vaccine they give to prevent the flu gave im the flu.

The shot is actually a small dose of the virus isn't it?

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by greenamp:
The shot is actually a small dose of the virus isn't it?

No it is an injection of viral particles that activates the antibodies in the host so they are already formed when/if the host gets infected with an active virus of that type.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by greenamp:
The shot is actually a small dose of the virus isn't it?

...but it's essentially inert and it's an old wives tale that you can get sick form it -- you can't.

Maury

[Nicko]

This is just an example of OURSOURCING gone bad.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by tie:
I don't understand why Bush not yet being sworn in the winter of 2000 makes the flu shortage less serious? But anyway, thanks for making my point. There have been several shortages in fact in the last few years. Bush has had four years to fix the problem -- which is very well-documented -- and hasn't done anything. (For example, the US relies on two manufacturers for its flu vaccine, the UK has seven.) The president's job is to fix things, not to wait for crisis.


No seriously, are you trying to look bad? My point again is that this current crisis was entirely preventable. We had plenty of warning, but this administration didn't fix the problem.

Wrong.
The problem was fixed if there was even what can be considered a problem, there was a larger supply than ever before for this flu season. In fact the reduced supply is sufficient to accommodate what has been the normal amount of shots taken in years not too long ago. I am not sure what well documented material you are talking about but apparently you have no ability to interpret it because you are wrong. This is far from a crisis it is an unforeseeable problem that has been just hyped up by lemmings like you.
The UK is about 60 million people. The United States is about 300 million. If proportional percentages of the population (based on average vacs taken per year) in each country get the vaccination then the UK only needs 12 million doses to the 60 million the US needs. That means that one single drug company could fill the demand for the UK so it is near impossible for every drug company in the world to have a tainted supply and be unable to fill the measly amount the UK would need.
Lastly, if this was preventable why in heavens name would the British drug company keep producing 50 million tainted vaccinations when they have to suck up part of the cost because they could not deliver on their contracts? Clearly, if anyone could have seen this as a reasonable possibility they would have stepped in. And if the US drug makers had warning they would have racked up production a month or two ago to fill the demand and made huge profits since they could have increased the price on us.
I think you better stop posting because so far nothing you have said is the least bit intelligent or probable. Moron.

[James L]

Originally posted by djohnson:
I have never gotten a flu shot and probably never will. My grandparents do get them though. About 5 years back, right after getting the shot, my granddad got the flu. Go figure that the vaccine they give to prevent the flu gave im the flu.

You cannot get the flu from the flu shot, as mentioned above that is a wives tale. The basic concept behind vaccines, and the flu shot, is that they basically kill, or inactivate, the viral contents inside a flu "cell". They leave the cell intake, however, so its identifiable protein strands are still present on the outside of the cell. When a foreign presence (antigen) enters the body the body does 2 things... it attacks it with generic antibodies, while at the same time it studies this new foreign substance, its identifiable protein strands, etc. It then generates specific antibodies which will now remain in circulation throughout the body. The next time this substance enters the body these antigen specific antibodies immediately recognize, attack, and nulify the antigen.

So, in essence, what they are injecting into you during a flu shot is a bunch of flu cells that have been destroyed on the inside, but remain intact on the outside so the immune system can recognize them and create antibodies for them.

People do get sick after they have received a flu shot, but they would have gotten sick then anyways... it is usually just coincidence.

Cheers!

James

[RAILhead]

Link about flu vaccine myths in case you're interested (from WebMD).

Maury

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by Nicko:
This is just an example of OURSOURCING gone bad.

Outsourcing?

Do you think any large country could produce the amount of drugs needed for their population at a reasonable cost compared to a private entity? Do you know what outsourcing means and in what areas it is applied to?

[itai195]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Wrong.
The problem was fixed if there was even what can be considered a problem, there was a larger supply than ever before for this flu season. In fact the reduced supply is sufficient to accommodate what has been the normal amount of shots taken in years not too long ago.

I love you Captain Obvious

But I think the goal of our flu vaccination programs should be to vaccinate more people each year, not to regress.

The UK is about 60 million people. The United States is about 300 million. If proportional percentages of the population (based on average vacs taken per year) in each country get the vaccination then the UK only needs 12 million doses to the 60 million the US needs. That means that one single drug company could fill the demand for the UK so it is near impossible for every drug company in the world to have a tainted supply and be unable to fill the measly amount the UK would need.

And yet, IIRC the UK has something like 7 suppliers for flu vaccine.

[Nicko]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Outsourcing?

Do you think any large country could produce the amount of drugs needed for their population at a reasonable cost compared to a private entity? Do you know what outsourcing means and in what areas it is applied to?

Mb you should change your name to Captain Oblivious...

Its simple, the US relied on TWO companies to supply their vaccine. By chance, one company's supply is rendered useless. So what...there was no plan B? Apparently not!

---------------

WASHINGTON Oct. 20, 2004 � More flu vaccine is expected to be available for millions of Americans in January, but that could be too late.

The flu season typically peaks in January or later. It takes two weeks for people to develop immunity after being vaccinated, which should be done in October or November, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

So while the U.S. government is searching all over the world for more vaccine, it is unclear how helpful the extra doses will be if they don't arrive until next year.

Federal health officials said Tuesday that 2.6 million additional doses of flu vaccine will be available in January, far fewer than the 48 million lost to contamination at a British manufacturing plant.

"We're waging a comprehensive and aggressive response," Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson told a news conference. "We have good reason to be optimistic in our ability to deal with the flu season and protect the most vulnerable from its harsh effects."

He said there was enough antiviral medicine available to treat 40 million people, shortening illness in people sick with the flu and preventing illness in healthy people.

Between vaccines and antiviral drugs, enough medicine will be available to treat 100 million people this flu season, Thompson said. Federal authorities have asked that healthy adults refrain from getting vaccinated to leave enough for those at greatest risk: the very young, the very old and people with chronic illnesses.

Sen. John Kerry, President Bush's Democratic challenger, has said the administration failed to heed warnings about a potential shortage.

"If you can't get flu vaccines to Americans, how are you going to protect them against bioterrorism? If you can't get flu vaccines to Americans, what kind of health care program are you running?" Kerry said.

In Florida, Bush sought to ease Americans' concerns. "I want to assure them that our government is doing everything possible to help older Americans and children get their shots despite the major manufacturing defect that caused this problem," he said.

Chiron Corp. was expected to provide the United States with 46 million to 48 million doses of flu vaccine, nearly half the supply the government anticipated needing. But British regulators closed Chiron's Liverpool facility because of contamination.

That left the United States with about 55 million doses from its second manufacturer, Aventis Pasteur. At a news conference Tuesday, Aventis Pasteur announced it could produce another 2.6 million doses.

The extra vaccine won't be ready for distribution until January.

Meanwhile, officials are looking "throughout the world" for additional vaccine, said Lester Crawford, Food and Drug Administration acting commissioner.

Crawford said the FDA would give expedited review to flu vaccine produced by ID Biomedical of Canada. The expedited review "weeks, rather than months" means the 1.5 million Canadian flu shots could reach Americans this season, he said. The agency plans to send its own inspectors to ensure the Canadian facilities meet U.S. manufacturing standards.

"We have similar standards," said Jirina Vlk, a Health Canada spokeswoman. She said she expected the FDA to have the Health Canada records by the end of October.

[tie]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
The problem was fixed if there was even what can be considered a problem, there was a larger supply than ever before for this flu season. Moron.

Call the problem fixed when it hasn't been. Then as a fallback position say that there wasn't a problem?! Denying reality doesn't change it.
There is a flu vaccine shortage. The CDC isn't a bunch of morons as much as you'd like to believe it.

Not surprisingly since it doesn't fit into your flat-earth viewpoint, you didn't reply to my point that there are only two US suppliers of the vaccine, while the UK has seven. Our vaccine system is fragile, and vulnerable to this kind of disruption. Once again, this was preventable. Whatever you'd like to believe, it wasn't prevented.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by tie:
I don't understand why Bush not yet being sworn in the winter of 2000 makes the flu shortage less serious?

Oh, it doesn't. It does, however, mean that blaming him is misguided; he has no control over this kind of thing, and he certainly didn't have it back when he wasn't even President yet.

There have been several shortages in fact in the last few years. Bush has had four years to fix the problem -- which is very well-documented -- and hasn't done anything. (For example, the US relies on two manufacturers for its flu vaccine, the UK has seven.) The president's job is to fix things, not to wait for crisis.

What would you suggest he have done? Who would have implemented it? Who would have paid for it? How much do you think it would have cost?

This is inaccurate. It is important that more people get vaccinated than just those who are at highest risk. A vaccinated population will reduce the severity of any outbreak.

Only up to a point, particularly when the vaccine doesn't get all of the strains. There comes a point when the benefit much outweighs the cost, or are you one of those "one death is too many" zealots?

My point again is that this current crisis was entirely preventable. We had plenty of warning, but this administration didn't fix the problem.

And I would argue that while hindsight is 20/20, the "warning" you claim never existed. There are always shortages, not because not enough is being made, but because too many people are trying to get it unnecessarily, and they're goaded into this by an over-hysterical media.

[tie]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Only up to a point, particularly when the vaccine doesn't get all of the strains. There comes a point when the benefit much outweighs the cost, or are you one of those "one death is too many" zealots?

I don't know where you are getting this. It is health professionals who say we need more vaccinations. "CDC estimates that during the average flu season, for every 1 million elderly persons that are vaccinated approximately 1,300 hospitalizations and 900 deaths are prevented." (Source: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d01624.pdf) "Available data show that only 54 percent of the elderly and 13 percent of younger high-risk adults have been vaccinated." I don't understand why you and Captain Obvious think the CDC and HHS are "zealots" or "morons."

And I would argue that while hindsight is 20/20, the "warning" you claim never existed. There are always shortages, not because not enough is being made, but because too many people are trying to get it unnecessarily, and they're goaded into this by an over-hysterical media.

Wrong. See the above report and also this one: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d01786t.pdf . From 2001, "a production delay or shortfall experienced by even one of the three remaining manufacturers can significantly impact overall vaccine availability." This is a specific warning; I think previous shortages should count as general warnings.

[Edit: There were four manufacturers in 2000: Parkedale, Wyeth-Ayerst, Aventis Pasteur, and Medeva Pharma (in the UK). In 2001, Parkedale dropped out. This year, there were supposed to be two manufacturers, Aventis Pasteur and Chiron (which purchased the facilities in the UK previously owned by Medeva Pharma), but we're down to one.]

[villalobos]

What's funny really is that now the major supplier for the US Flu vaccine is a french company. I think they should just stop sending vaccines to the Americans for being suck jerks in the Iraqui pre-war period.

I gotta add that you don't see too many french vaccines poured down the drain eh? Oh the irony.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by villalobos:
What's funny really is that now the major supplier for the US Flu vaccine is a french company. I think they should just stop sending vaccines to the Americans for being suck jerks in the Iraqui pre-war period.

I gotta add that you don't see too many french vaccines poured down the drain eh? Oh the irony.

[sideus]

Haven't had a flu shot in 10+ years. People need to quit fussing.

[Xeo]

They're freedom vaccines, dammit!

[James L]

Originally posted by sideus:
Haven't had a flu shot in 10+ years. People need to quit fussing.

What does that have to do with anything? i am assuming you are young or middle age and healthy. You are not in the at risk group for the flu, or more importantly, for severe consequences from the flu. That doesn't mean that you haven't unknowingly carried it, and spread it to people with weakened immune systems, children under the age of 2, elderly people, etc. The whole point of the flu shot is not just to protect you from getting it, but to also limit the spread of it to the at risk groups.

To use your analogy, I have a grandma who is currently 98 years old and has smoked about a pack a day since she was 14 or so. Does that mean we can disregard the concept that smoking caused cancer?

[sideus]

Point was people are getting all worked up over nothing.


OMGZ! THERE IS A FLU VACCINE SHORTAGE!!@##!@! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

Seems to me people think no flu vaccine = certain illness or death. The vaccine covers 2 strains, just 2! How many strains are out there? Probably a bunch.

Media driven hype is all it is.

Approx. 20,000 people die per year because of this sickness. That is a high number of deaths you know. But more than double that die from car accidents. Where is the hype on that?

In a week and a half, this will be old news and we will all be debating about the court cases that are imminent concerning the election results.

[James L]

Ah, gotcha, you weren't referring so much to the validity of the shot as how rampant the media is right now with it. And, I agree.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by tie:
Wrong. See the above report and also this one: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d01786t.pdf . From 2001, "a production delay or shortfall experienced by even one of the three remaining manufacturers can significantly impact overall vaccine availability." This is a specific warning; I think previous shortages should count as general warnings.

Not at all. For a specific warning, you'd need to know exactly when a shortage was going to occur.

What would you have done about this? For that matter, how would you have paid for it? I think I have a good guess as to what your answer will be, but I'd honestly like to hear you say it.