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Is Punk Music Really a Gen. X and Younger Thing?
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I feel that Punk music is something that "older" people just don't seem to understand or like. I am 30 and, I grew up listening to Punk: Bad Religion, Pennywise, Coffin Break, Face-to-Face, Lagwagon...
Any thoughts?
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You're 30, you are 'older' people.
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Dude, they like, totally don't understand us.
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Punk started in the mid-1970s and got big in the 80s. Ever hear of Iggy Pop, Ziggy Stardust (aka David Bowie), the Sex Pistols, the Clash, The Ramones, Patti Smith, The Misfits, etc.? (Don't forget "the punk on the bus" in Star Trek IV) In other words, it's just coming around again. I like a lot of it, actually and I'm hardly a Gen Xer. (I also like Big Band and swing music, along with a lot of other stuff...it's NOT "generational.")
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Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth
You're 30, you are 'older' people.
Very true.
And, um what about the people who "grew up listing to punk" in the 70s and are now well in their forties?
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Henry Rollins was actually the first person who came to mind. I believe he's in the vicinity of 45 now.
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Originally Posted by ghporter
Punk started in the mid-1970s and got big in the 80s. Ever hear of Iggy Pop, Ziggy Stardust (aka David Bowie),
Ziggy Stardust is a lot of things, including, probably, glam rock, but it definitely AIN'T punk.
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Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth
Henry Rollins was actually the first person who came to mind. I believe he's in the vicinity of 45 now.
Johnny Rotten is 52.
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Ha, I didn't mean in the sense of a punk performer, but as someone who grew up experiencing the advent of punk.
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Given that punk music was a phenomenon of the '70s, it's pretty much a Gen X thing by definition.
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The Ziggy Stardust persona helped form the basis of punk. Ziggy's complete disregard for convention, and the kind of music David used Ziggy with helped form punk as much as Iggy Pop did.
I think of Gen X as post punk, usually. They were born in the late 1960s and became teens in the early 80s, but they didn't start out as punkers. Most punk aficionados I've come across (living in Austin through much of the 80s, I ran into a bunch of them) were mid 20s and older, and had some sort of life experience with conformity that allowed them to actually know something about what they were discarding in taking up punk.
Or am I confusing "being a punk" and "the punk lifestyle" with simply "liking punk music?" Geez, a LOT of people like punk, just like a lot of people like rap and hip hop... Again, not a generational thing, just something about the music that they like.
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Punk is a simple recipe that's pretty easily accesible. If you're young and feeling a bit anti-whatever, it often speaks to you. Plus it's loud. And older people have a harder time making out the music from the noise they perceive.
But the Ramones are just as good today as they were 30 years ago.
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Originally Posted by ghporter
The Ziggy Stardust persona helped form the basis of punk. Ziggy's complete disregard for convention, and the kind of music David used Ziggy with helped form punk as much as Iggy Pop did.
The music of Ziggy is pretty much the total antithesis of punk - carefully constructed, very artful, lots of pathos.
I don't think that the blantantly androgynous shock value qualifies as "forming the basis of punk" through disregard for convention.
It was one more thing that people had become used to and that maybe helped in the tolerance towards punk - but those tolerant of punk were most specifically NOT those it was aimed at, anyway.
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Androgyny in glam rock is NOT the same thing as Johnny Rotten wearing an angora sweater.
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Is what I'm sayin', yeah.
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the american hardcore scene was my favorite.
i'm actually heading to a Meatmen show tomorrow night here in Pontiac. Tesco put a band together and not only started touring again but will be releasing some new stuff (a cover cd first, then new material).
going to be an awesome time tomorrow night!
The Meatmen - Tesco Vee - Home
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I am stupidest when I try to be funny.
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Now that I think about it, I agree that early punks were not "following" the Ziggy Stardust persona, in spite of Bowie's absolute defiance of convention. I think the grungy, nihilistic sort of approach of the early punks was more a reaction to Bowie's Stardust work than many people think, though. By crafting their music to be gritty, even harsh, they were trying to stand apart and be seen as completely different from established acts like Bowie. I see one as leading to the other, but I had to think about it pretty seriously to see how that happened, and it much more like what analogika says: punkers wanted to be the opposite of Ziggy.
On the other hand, punk became its own parody pretty quickly. Kirk Thatcher managed to boil down 99.999% of all punk songs into a little ditty called "I Hate You." You've probably all heard it, but I leave it as a surprise for the inquisitive to research-it won't take much work. Suffice to say that "I hate you and myself and everything there is" was the crux of almost all punk music after about '85. It doesn't matter who was doing it (with rare exceptions), but if it was a small group, they were not talking about sunshine and flowers.
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I'm just waiting for ska to make a come back again
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Like most of The Ramones, punk is dead.
What was the last song to move the punk genre forward? Anthrax's cover of Joe Jackson's "Got the Time"? That was in 1991. I can't think of any evolution since then, and when you do the same thing over and over again, you limit yourself to existing fans.
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and obviously, my choice of punk bands posted above say nothing as to whether or not punk is dead, they're all from back in the day. just saying.. there's punks out there. just as there's modern disco heads. I knows 'em.
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But...I thought that "punk" was like Blink 182.
???
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Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies
What was the last song to move the punk genre forward? Anthrax's cover of Joe Jackson's "Got the Time"?
Joe Jackson was punk? I really like Joe's music, but I never thought of him as punk. I never really thought of him with a label, for that matter...
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure
I love when someone says XX genre is dead. I think it's unpossible.
"Hot funk, cool punk, even if it's old junk, it's still rock and roll to me." BJ was right—even if a lot of people dissed him for being "soft" or "conventional."
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure
and obviously, my choice of punk bands posted above say nothing as to whether or not punk is dead, they're all from back in the day. just saying.. there's punks out there. just as there's modern disco heads. I knows 'em.
I have an assignment from an old friend to digitize some of his really old, really rare punk vinyl (which I haven't gotten to yet). Punk is not dead, it's just taken its place along side all the other genres that were "big" and then settled into being "music."
Originally Posted by Jawbone54
But...I thought that "punk" was like Blink 182.
???
Jawbone, you made my brain hurt. Blink 182 and "punk" in the same sentence jars the foundations of the space-time continuum.
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Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
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Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies
Like most of The Ramones, punk is dead.
What was the last song to move the punk genre forward? Anthrax's cover of Joe Jackson's "Got the Time"? That was in 1991. I can't think of any evolution since then, and when you do the same thing over and over again, you limit yourself to existing fans.
Mentioning punk and anthrax is the same post....some cover of Joe Jackson....so confused...
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Oh, and ghporter, I don't really know exactly what perception I had of you before reading this thread, but safe to say it's been fully destroyed. I didn't take you to be a fan or even knowledgeable of punk musics.
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I liked the early punk stuff, "Anarchy in the UK", "Rock the Casbah" and such, but after a fairly short time the majority of punk turned into noise for me, so I stopped listening. I still listen to old Ramones stuff, The Clash, and such, but I don't work too hard at it. Like I said above, most punk bands parodied their genre pretty early on and never figured out that the joke was on them...
And I'm not so invested in listening to anyone genre of music that I'm what anyone would call even a mild enthusiast for most popular genres. I really like classical, Big Band, OLD electronic and experimental stuff (Brian Eno's "Music for Airports" is still one of my favorites), and the rather inventive kinds of music that come from Ireland and Scotland (pipes, harps, a variety of drums, great harmonies in the vocals...), but I don't even bother with anything vaguely like pop, and so I don't get that into anything much outside what I listed above. You should see my music library—it would give someone with OCD fits when they tried to categorize everything.
I think it would be safe to say that I'm "behind the curve" when it comes to new music, and I'm very comfortable with that.
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Originally Posted by Jawbone54
But...I thought that "punk" was like Blink 182.
???
Yep, and the Police were Reggae.
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Originally Posted by analogika
Yep, and the Police were Reggae.
I mean...It's not that far from the truth...
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Originally Posted by scaught
I mean...It's not that far from the truth...
I see what you're getting at, but citing influences doesn't make you part of a genre IMO.
I tend to think of them as a punk-rock band (vis their 1st album) then having moved more and more into pop music, incorporating whatever styles happened to work best for what they were doing.
I don't think they're any more a "reggae band" than Stevie Wonder is for doing Master Blaster.
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Originally Posted by analogika
Yep, and the Police were Reggae.
Originally Posted by scaught
I mean...It's not that far from the truth...
The Police DID reggae quite well. But so did a LOT of other bands. The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Jamaica Lady" was a reggae piece that worked very well, but when it was released not a lot of people here in the States had ever heard of reggae. It's all style, really, not anything else. Dali was a very masterful artist, but most people don't know much about his representational works because they're not "unique." But he was still great at it. A good group of musicians should be able to play any style of music at least competently.
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Originally Posted by ghporter
Joe Jackson was punk? I really like Joe's music, but I never thought of him as punk. I never really thought of him with a label, for that matter..."Hot funk, cool punk, even if it's old junk, it's still rock and roll to me."
Joe Jackson was not punk, and neither was his version (the original version) of "Got the Time." His version was a pop song, and an inane one at that.
The Anthrax cover of "Got the Time" was very much a punk song. That version re-defined punk. It was released in 1991, but if you didn't know better, you might that it was recorded years later.
But that's the problem. Punk hasn't gone anywhere since 1991. Almost every punk song recorded since then sounds a bit too influenced by Anthax's "Got the Time." After all this time, it all sounds about the same. And until we hear a punk song that does something different, punk remains dead.
Originally Posted by scaught
Mentioning punk and anthrax is the same post....some cover of Joe Jackson....so confused...
1979: Joe Jackson releases his debut album, Look Sharp!, including the pop song "Got the Time."
1991: Anthrax covers "Got the Time" as a punk song on the album Persistence of Time. Song re-defines punk. People associate "Got the Time" with Anthrax instead of Joe Jackson.
1991-Present: No additional evolution in punk music.
(Anthrax gets labeled as a thrash metal band, but its early albums are almost as much punk as they are thrash.)
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Anthrax is a metal band. You're hearing the influence of hardcore on their sound. They aren't punk and neither was that song.
And why pick that as an example at all? There a few great genre busting punk albums released that year that are now considered "classic."
Fugazi - Steady Diet Of Nothing
NoMeansNo - 0+2=1
Coffin Break - Crawl
Warlock Pinchers - Circusized Peanuts
Just to name a few.
A few great albums released after 1991:
Alice Donut - The Untidy Suicide Of Your Degenerate Children (1992)
Scared of Chaka - Masonic Youth (1996)
Deerhoof - The Man, The King, The Girl (1997)
The Kent 3 - Stories Of The New West (1997)
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(just listened to snippit of Anthrax's "got the time". I've heard it before. Persistence of time isn't my favorite anthrax album, but it's alright...)
Anyway.
Your claim that that song "redefined" punk is pretty subjective. It sounds derivative of dozens of other pop punk bands (particularly of that southern california vein).
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Originally Posted by freudling
I feel that Punk music is something that "older" people just don't seem to understand or like. I am 30 and, I grew up listening to Punk: Bad Religion, Pennywise, Coffin Break, Face-to-Face, Lagwagon...
Any thoughts?
I don't think those bands are really punk, when I think of punk it is Dead Boys, Sex Pistols, The Damned and newer bands, like Fugazi/Minor Threat. Pennywise is pretty close to Blink 182 in my book.
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I have one thing I'd like to add: The Dead Milkmen. No one under 20 has even hear of them.
That is all.
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Originally Posted by Jawbone54
But...I thought that "punk" was like Blink 182.
???
I see no one got the joke.
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Punk is dead. All you hear is echoes.
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But using delay effects and stuff is so "establishment"...
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Originally Posted by Railroader
I have one thing I'd like to add: The Dead Milkmen. No one under 20 has even hear of them.
That is all.
earwig was a weird song
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Ah... we can argue genres all day. Most all of the bands posted are Punk, some to more a "raw" degree than others.
As for this statement:
"Pennywise is pretty close to Blink 182": Patently false. And Fugazi? Why all the talk about them? Ya, some of their stuff was Punky, like earlier Punk in terms of rawness, but they really were also a large part grunge.
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Originally Posted by freudling
Ah... we can argue genres all day. Most all of the bands posted are Punk, some to more a "raw" degree than others.
As for this statement:
"Pennywise is pretty close to Blink 182": Patently false. And Fugazi? Why all the talk about them? Ya, some of their stuff was Punky, like earlier Punk in terms of rawness, but they really were also a large part grunge.
fugazi = grunge?
Now I know why I should just stay out of these music threads.
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"...I should just stay out of these music threads."
That is what we have been saying all along.
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Originally Posted by freudling
"...I should just stay out of these music threads."
That is what we have been saying all along.
hahahaha
Don't feed my ego, son.
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Originally Posted by analogika
Very true. And, um what about the people who "grew up listing to punk" in the 70s and are now well in their forties?
Yeah we still listen to punk. Not that we break out the Dead Kennedy's vinyl all the time, but I still listen to Jane's Addiction and the Pixies a lot.
Punk isn't dead either... it just went mainstream. Nirvana was the first big pop-punk band and punk is now called alt-rock and Violent Femmes/Dead Milkemen light-punk kindof evolved into emo etc. Almost sad really.
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I'd forgotten about Dead Kennedys. They were quite different; I didn't "like" them, but they were tolerable. Some punk groups were not.
mrtew has a good take on what happened to punk. Nirvana came from people who wanted to make "different" music that rebelled against the system, but they were pretty darn comfortable and could only manage to rebel against some things. The Violent Femmes had a real lock on young women's issues when the first started, but they just seemed to be whiney after a while. Sort of like emo music.
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Kids these days don't have a clue about punk. Sex Pistols, the Ramones, and Fear, that's the stuff.
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